Thinning Hair

[bobbyn]

can anyone recommend a med for thinning hair? my hair is getting pretty thin on top and with my trt i understand it might get thinner?

is there a specific level that i need look for in my labs concerning this?

my son at 25 very receeded....possibly he could benefit from something.

thanks much
bob

 

[JanSz]

can anyone recommend a med for thinning hair? my hair is getting pretty thin on top and with my trt i understand it might get thinner?

is there a specific level that i need look for in my labs concerning this?

my son at 25 very receeded....possibly he could benefit from something.

thanks much
bob

Check your blood DHT level.
DHT(30-85) ng/dL
If you are over 85
use Avodart.
If you blood is low on DHT, watch out,
my own theory,
people complaining about finasteride must be or have been in that (low DHT) category.
----------------------------
My DHT without Avodart DHT=226
with daily Avodart DHT=29
I am currently experimenting with every other day dose.
----------------------------
If you have low blood DHT and thinning hair, stay with topicals (and pray that they work).

 

[bobbyn]

thanks for the reply...

my present dht is 74....i'll run this by dr john next time i see him

bob

 

[christopher]

Check your blood DHT level.
DHT(30-85) ng/dL
If you are over 85
use Avodart.
If you blood is low on DHT, watch out,
my own theory,
people complaining about finasteride must be or have been in that (low DHT) category.
----------------------------
My DHT without Avodart DHT=226
with daily Avodart DHT=29
I am currently experimenting with every other day dose.
----------------------------
If you have low blood DHT and thinning hair, stay with topicals (and pray that they work).

I think that is bad advice on many levels....First, you are assuming that hairloss in general is caused by DHt and DHt only, and second , that his individual case is caused by DHt....
It could be many other reasons for him personally....inflammation, stress, allergic reaction, MPB, but do you know which one...?

Then, rather than having him do some research ,you recommend the strongest and most side effect producing medication that is available.....Did you mention the side effects...? What the drug was designed to do? ask how old he was? where he was on the NW scale? How long he had been thinning...? What NW his father/mother, grandparents were...? Explain that there are many other "treatments" and alternatives before taking dutasteride? That if he was in fact later inflicted with BPH, due to the use of Advodart, he is much more likely to have a lethal case...? What about DHT...? Isnt (dht) it ANY use to anyone, and blocking it w/advodart will have no effect...psychologically/sexually...?

I could go on and on.....And your theory about propecia blood levels is invalid also....Ther havent been any studies (that I am aware of) that site pre-finasteride DHt levels....The harmful effect realized by some is that the dht levels drop to such levels, and many other systematic effects that are not universal to each user......You are givin bad advice that you cant back up, and potentially leading another into harms way......

 

[JanSz]

I think that is bad advice on many levels....First, you are assuming that hairloss in general is caused by DHt and DHt only, and second , that his individual case is caused by DHt....
It could be many other reasons for him personally....inflammation, stress, allergic reaction, MPB, but do you know which one...?

Then, rather than having him do some research ,you recommend the strongest and most side effect producing medication that is available.....Did you mention the side effects...? What the drug was designed to do? ask how old he was? where he was on the NW scale? How long he had been thinning...? What NW his father/mother, grandparents were...? Explain that there are many other "treatments" and alternatives before taking dutasteride? That if he was in fact later inflicted with BPH, due to the use of Advodart, he is much more likely to have a lethal case...? What about DHT...? Isnt (dht) it ANY use to anyone, and blocking it w/advodart will have no effect...psychologically/sexually...?

I could go on and on.....And your theory about propecia blood levels is invalid also....Ther havent been any studies (that I am aware of) that site pre-finasteride DHt levels....The harmful effect realized by some is that the dht levels drop to such levels, and many other systematic effects that are not universal to each user......You are givin bad advice that you cant back up, and potentially leading another into harms way......

In case my post was taken as advice, no it is not advice.
It is what I am doing for the last 10 years.
I started on Rogaine then on Proscar when I was able to get a script.
Then changed to Avodart when it became available.
Every time I discontinue Avodart my DHT goes up.

 

[bobbyn]

thanks for the replys, argument, looking out for me. looks like i'll have to continue to research this area more and consult with dr john

bob

 

[Kanecore]

Check your blood DHT level.
DHT(30-85) ng/dL
If you are over 85
use Avodart.
If you blood is low on DHT, watch out,
my own theory,
people complaining about finasteride must be or have been in that (low DHT) category.
----------------------------
My DHT without Avodart DHT=226
with daily Avodart DHT=29
I am currently experimenting with every other day dose.
----------------------------
If you have low blood DHT and thinning hair, stay with topicals (and pray that they work).

Actually, blood DHT levels ar not entirely reliable when looking at it's effect on the prostate and/or hair loss. Hairloss may be due to genetics (MPHL) of which DHT does play a role, Hypothyroidism, hypoparathyroidism, liver toxicity, diet or a host of other medical issues, not merely related to DHT. Dr. John had told me that DHT is not a comprehensive lab anymore. High levels of DHT are a good indicator of a strong libido, but doesn't provide the whole picture when it comes to prostate issues. My DHT level is 4x that of normal, but my 5-alph reductase at a cellular level (quoting; not sure exactly what this means but believe it is derived from this enzymes activity within prostate cells) is normal. 5-alpha reductase is a stronger indicator than blood DHT if one is looking for prostate issues. Unhealthy estrogen metabolites and elevated E2, however, is more responsible for BPH and prostate proliferation than DHT itself. When I have BPH because I forgot to take my Arimidex with me when I'm on business, .25 mg stops it in its tracks. If one does a 24hr urine and sees 5-alpha reductase at the cellular level is elevated, then one needs to worry about DHT. Certain alpha blockers like Urotrexol, can be implimented if BPH is an issue and cleared by your doctor who is administrating TRT. However, before one starts using saw palmetto and/or especially that evil propecia (finasteride) one must realize that the result may be the opposite of what one expects: lower sex drive, augmented labs, irreversible hormone metabolism. DHT gets a bad name because uninformed MDs and supplement companies need to sell products. I made the mistake of taking a prostate OTC a few weeks back, and Dr. John got a little upset and old me to through it in the garbage. Live and learn.

 

[JanSz]

Actually, blood DHT levels ar not entirely reliable when looking at it's effect on the prostate and/or hair loss. Hairloss may be due to genetics (MPHL) of which DHT does play a role, Hypothyroidism, hypoparathyroidism, liver toxicity, diet or a host of other medical issues, not merely related to DHT. Dr. John had told me that DHT is not a comprehensive lab anymore. High levels of DHT are a good indicator of a strong libido, but doesn't provide the whole picture when it comes to prostate issues. My DHT level is 4x that of normal, but my 5-alph reductase at a cellular level (quoting; not sure exactly what this means but believe it is derived from this enzymes activity within prostate cells) is normal. 5-alpha reductase is a stronger indicator than blood DHT if one is looking for prostate issues. Unhealthy estrogen metabolites and elevated E2, however, is more responsible for BPH and prostate proliferation than DHT itself. When I have BPH because I forgot to take my Arimidex with me when I'm on business, .25 mg stops it in its tracks. If one does a 24hr urine and sees 5-alpha reductase at the cellular level is elevated, then one needs to worry about DHT. Certain alpha blockers like Urotrexol, can be implimented if BPH is an issue and cleared by your doctor who is administrating TRT. However, before one starts using saw palmetto and/or especially that evil propecia (finasteride) one must realize that the result may be the opposite of what one expects: lower sex drive, augmented labs, irreversible hormone metabolism. DHT gets a bad name because uninformed MDs and supplement companies need to sell products. I made the mistake of taking a prostate OTC a few weeks back, and Dr. John got a little upset and old me to through it in the garbage. Live and learn.

Thank you for your input.
I am also heading toward Dr John.
Yes it is going to be tough ride.
I have a large prostate and cannot afford much experimentation.
This is main issue that holds me back from making my trek to
The Man Cave.
I am not sure if I can comply with ban on Avodart without having really good back up, good reason why I would stop using Avodart and what I would do instead.
Before I started on Testosterone I went thru 6 prostate biopsies just to make sure, it was rather big sacrifice, I do not treat this topic lightly, but I need good information.

Sometime in the last few weeks Dr Marianco started talking about half life and lower dose, when I complained that my daily take of Avodart was lowering my DHT too much.
Few days ago I got practically the same answer from a doctor at LEF, she told me to try Avodart every other day.
I see no outright ban on Avodart among other places.
The only place that I seen
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is easy to think that they deal with young population that do not really have prostate issues as of yet, so they can afford large margin or error.

Only last month LEF says that high DHT is not desirable for prostate and hair and rather than using Proscar or Propecia (they do not quote Avodart) they advice use of Saw Palmeto.
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While I buy the theory on unhealthy estrodial ratio (2/16) I am afraid to let go of theory that high DHT over range (over 85) is unhealthy. Even here is controversy, DIM what kind, just DIM or DIM+I3C or maybe DIM+I3C+xxx. How much DIM, a lot or a little bit.

I am afraid that ban on Avodart (or finasteride) is so cutting edge that he (Dr John) may be alone or in very small group with his theory.
I have an easier time to believe that among finasteride users those with initial low DHT got bad side effects, they are small group (2%users) but very vocal.

I am posting often on my Avodart taking, hoping that it provokes Dr John's comment that is complete rather than (less useful) one liner.
.

 

[TripDog]

what do you guys advise about taking duta,or finisteride while on test e??...and when you take either of those products,what do you take with it to prevent gyno???serm?ai,and wich one.....thanks

 

[JanSz]

what do you guys advise about taking duta,or finisteride while on test e??...and when you take either of those products,what do you take with it to prevent gyno???serm?ai,and wich one.....thanks

My current approach, I am not a doctor.
1. I do not take Finasteride

2. I take Avodart because my DHT blood level is high, I would not take it if my blood levels were low or in range. One Avodart pill is too much for me and I am trying one every other day, this is on advice from a doctor from LEF (not a doctor who wrote the script for Avodart). Additionally, LEF doctor adviced me to take Pomegranate for prostate, Item Catalog Number: 956

3.Testosterone I take because my own is low. I am trying to get my
FreeT 160-200(pmol/L)
BAT 5.5(nmol/L)
Those numberes are happy medium of FreeT=160 that Dr Shippen is starting with and data for healthy young men in Table 2&4 of ---http://www.atypon-link.com/WDG/doi/pdf/10.1515/JLM.2006.050
Coincidentally, my TotalT will be around 800.
I use 100mg/1gram Tcream from womensinernational

4. I do not use Arimidex, used in the past, still have a small stash of it just in case.

5. I use DIM, it is Dual-Action from LEF. On advice from their doctor I am using two pills daily. That would amount to one pill of Indolplex when counting DIM only. My pill have also I3C and other stuff. When asked LEF doctor for reason of taking those pills, it was about bad/good estrogen ratio, ONLY. Asked specifically about if DIM+I3C will lower my DHT, she said yes but totally insignificant amount. I asked if I should take more DIM she said no, but I have not got good explanation here.
I forgot to ask her about TMG with DIM, she did not offered it. I am using TMG, long term 100mg is part of LEF multi-vitamin, lately I added 500mg/daily.

6. LEF doctor adviced me to take Progesterone Cream, Item Catalog Number: 616

7. I take a lot of supplements from LEF, here I will mention
Advanced Natural Prostate Formula with 5-Loxin®
Item Catalog Number: 975
and
Super MiraForte with Maximum Strength Chrysin
Item Catalog Number: 615

8. This months issue discusses prostate and enzyme called 5-lipoxygenase (5-LOX) (bad one) and how to inhibit that enzyme.
Invalid Link Removed

 

[JanSz]

Hopefully Dr Marianco will give more details on the story of male model who's carrier depends on use of finasteride.
Invalid Link Removed

 

[Kanecore]

what do you guys advise about taking duta,or finisteride while on test e??...and when you take either of those products,what do you take with it to prevent gyno???serm?ai,and wich one.....thanks

Finasteride is evil! I'd rather be bald with horrible BPH than take that stuff. It totally destroys you hormone pathways and this can be irreversible. Dr. John places his patients in two different categories: those who have never taken finasteride and those who have. Prostate formulas are not as harmful as finasteride and Avodart, but I still would stay away. If hairloss or prostate health is of concern, then estrogen metabolism is key. Studies are starting to emerge that indicate elevated E2, 4-hydroxyestadiol and 16e-hydroxyestrone have a more destructive impact on prostate health.

 

[JanSz]

Finasteride is evil! I'd rather be bald with horrible BPH than take that stuff. It totally destroys you hormone pathways and this can be irreversible. Dr. John places his patients in two different categories: those who have never taken finasteride and those who have. Prostate formulas are not as harmful as finasteride and Avodart, but I still would stay away. If hairloss or prostate health is of concern, then estrogen metabolism is key. Studies are starting to emerge that indicate elevated E2, 4-hydroxyestadiol and 16e-hydroxyestrone have a more destructive impact on prostate health.

So it is not only Proscar and Avodart it is also prostate formulas. Sounds like new religion. In post above this one I posted reference where Dr Marianco's acquaintance is helping a guy, male model who have to use finasteride, his job and livelihood depends on it
----
"elevated E2, 4-hydroxyestadiol and 16e-hydroxyestrone"

what do you know about doses, amount of DIM, details of what kind DIM, devil is in the details.
Provide as much details as you are able.
.

 

[christopher]

So it is not only Proscar and Avodart it is also prostate formulas. Sounds like new religion. In post above this one I posted reference where Dr Marianco's acquaintance is helping a guy, male model who have to use finasteride, his job and livelihood depends on it
----
"elevated E2, 4-hydroxyestadiol and 16e-hydroxyestrone"

what do you know about doses, amount of DIM, details of what kind DIM, devil is in the details.
Provide as much details as you are able.
.

Noone has to take finasteride....What he is saying is that the guy thinks that he needs his hair to still be a model....which is likely true....

Fin is not the only option....

For your research, why dont you try this forum....

regrowth.com

post your questions there...the community is divided-1/2 for naturals and 1/2 for phara.....you will get input from both sectors....

you seem to keep repesting the same info over and over, citing dht levels as your precursor to use dutasteride...Try the other forum and make a post.....

also,
hairlosshelp.com
hairlosstalk.com
hairtransplantnetwork

These three have hair transplant patients, most of which take propecia or dut.....<Most of todays md's and ht docs prescribe it....I was prescribed it myself, but chose to never take it.....

Hope this helps

 

[JanSz]

Noone has to take finasteride....What he is saying is that the guy thinks that he needs his hair to still be a model....which is likely true....

Fin is not the only option....

For your research, why dont you try this forum....

regrowth.com

post your questions there...the community is divided-1/2 for naturals and 1/2 for phara.....you will get input from both sectors....

you seem to keep repesting the same info over and over, citing dht levels as your precursor to use dutasteride...Try the other forum and make a post.....

also,
hairlosshelp.com
hairlosstalk.com
hairtransplantnetwork

These three have hair transplant patients, most of which take propecia or dut.....<Most of todays md's and ht docs prescribe it....I was prescribed it myself, but chose to never take it.....

Hope this helps

I do not worry much about my hair.
Actually about 10 years ago it started to fall off, I used rogaine, did not helped, I switched to Proscar latter to Avodart, have no problem with hairs, have a head full only slightly thin. I am 67yo.
I have been to other web sites on hair loss. People complaining about finasteride are just handwaving, no scientific research like this or Meso boards.
-----
I really do not care about Proscar or Avodart, I (mostly) do not care about my hair either, but I do care about my enlarged prostate.

------
I would welcome Dr John (200 words or more) commentary on his current view on prostate health and the other issues that arrise when one have to thinker with his
adrenals/thyroid/androgens that we discuss here.
I understand that there are 2-5% outliers or difficult cases,
they could be omitted in his brief.
Reference to somebody elses view that is supported by Dr John, would be just fine.
.
.
.Sorry that my statement highjacked Thinning Hair thread.

 

[bobbyn]

geezzzzz this stuff is just too much for me....i'm learning but
SLOWLEY.... I will obviously talk to dr john about this and not use any meds unless cleared prescribed by him...way too much to know here ( someone told me about some sort of surgey...cell volumizing or something like that...you guys hear of it?
thanks
bob

 

[JanSz]

thanks for the reply...

my present dht is 74....i'll run this by dr john next time i see him

bob

Yes, indeed, your DHT is just about right the way it is.
You need that much DHT to live.
If you would start Proscar or Avodart you would knock it down below of what you need.
My theory on using Proscar or Avodart is for someone like me, DHT=226 with out them.
-----
Post on your approach after visit with dr.

 

[MacDonnell]

Bobbyn,

Dr. John sells a Nizoral/Spironolactone shampoo which apparently helps a fair number of guys with high DHT-related hair thinning. I was skeptical until I started doing a bit of research into this. There are a decent number of studies out there indicating that this stuff actually DOES inhibit hair loss (and for a small percentage of guys, may promote hair growth). I have put in my order - You have to be a patient of Dr. John's, however. It is only available by perscription. I'll let you know how it works. BTW, your DHT really isn't that high. Mine is a whopping 248!!!! (and I still have a good amount of hair - There is no MPB in my family.) Hang in there!

Mac

 

[JanSz]

Bobbyn,

Dr. John sells a Nizoral/Spironolactone shampoo which apparently helps a fair number of guys with high DHT-related hair thinning. I was skeptical until I started doing a bit of research into this. There are a decent number of studies out there indicating that this stuff actually DOES inhibit hair loss (and for a small percentage of guys, may promote hair growth). I have put in my order - You have to be a patient of Dr. John's, however. It is only available by perscription. I'll let you know how it works. BTW, your DHT really isn't that high. Mine is a whopping 248!!!! (and I still have a good amount of hair - There is no MPB in my family.) Hang in there!

Mac

MacDonnell;

So is there anything that you do about your high DHT?
What is your position on high DHT issue?
Mine is 226 when I do nothing and 29 when I am on daily Avodart. Recently I do Avodart every other day.
I am 67yo, have most of my hair but high DHT worry me.
.
I added one extra pill of my DIM, on the hope that it not only help the 2/16 estrogen issue but possibly also the DHT.

 

[bobbyn]

hey cool beans...

thanks for the heads up....let me know how that hair scrub works out for you..

bob

 

[Kanecore]

MacDonnell;

So is there anything that you do about your high DHT?
What is your position on high DHT issue?
Mine is 226 when I do nothing and 29 when I am on daily Avodart. Recently I do Avodart every other day.
I am 67yo, have most of my hair but high DHT worry me.
.
I added one extra pill of my DIM, on the hope that it not only help the 2/16 estrogen issue but possibly also the DHT.

I recently found a study where urologists are injecting botox into the prostate to induce shrinkage. The results seem to be that the injection in fact shrink the prostate to normal size. The injections last between 6-9 months. Another injection is needed when the prostate begins to show signs of bph again. The studies are in the beginning phases but there are some urologists that are administering the protocol.

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Here is a comprehensive explanation on hair loss.

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My hair thinned out when I was 27. I do not have male pattern baldness despite DHT 4x normal. I have all my hair but it hasn't receeded or gotten any worse since the initial thinning 8 years ago. The dermatologist said she couldn't figure out what the problem is. She indicated if I did have male pattern baldness and such a high DHT, my hair would have been gone by the time I was 30. My thyroid and adrenals are fine. I'm thinking my liver or diet may be playing a role here.

 

[Kanecore]

Check this out!!!

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[bobbyn]

hey....

thanks for the links....i'm not too worried about the hair, it is thinning but as yours it might just stay as is. we'll wait and see.

the prostate article was a cool read...if my prostate grows i'm gona mention it to my uro. dr john told me it wasn't very enlarged but was hard.

thanks
bob

 

[Kanecore]

Zinc and Vitamin B6 work together to maintain healthy hormone levels. Daily doses are in the range of 50 mg of B6 per day and 30 to 60 mg of zinc. Zinc supplements have been shown to shrink the prostate gland, although it is not recommended as a stand alone treatment. Long term zinc supplementation at doses greater than 40 mg a day can induce a copper deficiency.2 Symptoms of copper deficiency are: anemia, low white blood cell counts, with impaired immune function and an increase in the ratio of bad cholesterol to good cholesterol (LDL/HDL). Zinc supplementation should include 2 to 3 mg of copper. Vitamin B6 (Pyroxidine)

Vitamin B6 is a water-soluble vitamin that is in many enzymes related to protein metabolism. In particular, Vitamin B6, along with zinc, regulates the enzyme that converts testosterone to DHT (dihydrotestosterone), which is considered harmful. Consequently, B6 can help control inflammation of the bladder. Vitamin B6, also along with zinc, helps the body resist a hormonal action that can cause swelling of the prostate. Vitamin B6 also helps negate the adverse effects when prolactin levels increase, especially in men 40 and older. Too much prolactin can contribute to the development of prostate tumors.


Zinc

Zinc is an essential trace element and is one of the most important nutrients in promoting good prostate health. Studies suggest that zinc inhibits an enzyme that naturally increases with age and is responsible for the hormonal changes that cause prostate enlargement. Zinc also has a beneficial anti-bacterial effect, which helps stave off genito-urinary infections.

 

[Kanecore]

Zinc is crucial for men's sexual health, yet each time a man ejaculates, he loses approximately 15mg of it in the sperm!

 

[JanSz]

I could not get very far into that read due to all the nonsense posted there. Whoever wrote it has no idea what they are talking about. Please ignore. Promptly.

Wery nice of you to warn about nonsense.

Please take you time and discuss your position on
elevated DHT and BHP.
===========================================
Their position is stated in the first line:
BASIC ASSUMPTION – CAUSE of BPH

BPH is caused by low bioavailable levels of testosterone,
high levels of DHT and ESTROGEN binding with the hormone receptor sites on the prostate gland. This stimulates cell growth.
BASIC ASSUMPTION- TREATMENT of BPH

By elevating the bioavailabity of testosterone and reducing DHT and Estrogen or blocking their ability to bind with the prostate, the prostate gland will normalize in size and function.

 

[JanSz]

LEF does no thave "doctors" to advise.

In the recent past you mention being intervieved by LEF.

Is this interview published anywhere, please post a link.

At LEF I was taking with a lady who was presented to me as a doctor.
To get her advice LEF membership is required.
Her name and phone

Dr. Akhundova

(800) 226-2370 ext. 7620

Thank you for patronizing this board.

Take progesterone if you want wrinkles in your penis and plaque in your arteries.

Her advice on adding 1/4 teaspoon/daily of progesterone cream came from discussion on
my high DHT and low pregnenolone (I hope I remember correctly).
I told her that I am already taking pregnenolone
50mg included in Multivitamins
100mg as separate pills
my blood test (before 100mg)
Progesterone----1.4ng/dL(0.3-1.2)
Pregnenolone----23ng/dL(10–200)
DHT-----------226ng/dL(30-85)

 

[christopher]

LEF does no thave "doctors" to advise.

Take progesterone if you want wrinkles in your penis and plaque in your arteries.

Why so avidly against progesterone....? If one is defecient, do you recommend using HCg to try and stimulate healthy levels...?

So I understand, its not that you are againt progesterone levels bieng normalized, just againt normalizing them w/direct bio-id progesterone supplementation....or do you not believe in tying to elevate them at all....?

 

[Kanecore]

I could not get very far into that read due to all the nonsense posted there. Whoever wrote it has no idea what they are talking about. Please ignore. Promptly.

Dr. John, I'm glad you can clarify this misinformation. Many of these sites post their garbage to sell their products. I'm glad you take the time to show us we are not trained physicians nor can we aspire to become one searching websites. I believe we come to this board for comfort and support. However, one cannot supplant our doctors recommendations or he or she won't be able to do their job and we will not benefit.

 

[JanSz]

Oh, then I stand corrected. Thank you.

I'm not sure when the interview will be published. I have been told they will announce me as the newest member of their Medical Advisory Panel in April.

I disagree with the progesterone supplementation.

"member of their Medical Advisory Panel in April"
super news, please keep us posted on promissing new developments.
---------------------------------
"I disagree with the progesterone supplementation"
1. please state reason,
my progesterone blood level is at upper bound level, anyhow,
additional supplementation is to raise my low pregnenolone.

2. I must say that Dr. Akhundova also seems to be of double mind about progesterone,
but it was about delivery system.
She did not care much about pills but was for use of a cream

 

[christopher]

Why so avidly against progesterone....? If one is defecient, do you recommend using HCg to try and stimulate healthy levels...?

So I understand, its not that you are againt progesterone levels bieng normalized, just againt normalizing them w/direct bio-id progesterone supplementation....or do you not believe in tying to elevate them at all....?

whenever you get a chance, Dr John....I am aware of plaque in arteries and wrinkles analogy, but is that from bio-id cream or elevating by alternate means....?

Do you agree that progesterone is a natural 5ar inhibitor and also and anti - aromatase...? And if one is defecient, do you recommend treating the defeciency (assuming that the defeciency is established thru vaild testing method)..? What is your protocol...?

Thankx...

 

[MacDonnell]

MacDonnell;

So is there anything that you do about your high DHT?
What is your position on high DHT issue?
Mine is 226 when I do nothing and 29 when I am on daily Avodart. Recently I do Avodart every other day.
I am 67yo, have most of my hair but high DHT worry me.
.
I added one extra pill of my DIM, on the hope that it not only help the 2/16 estrogen issue but possibly also the DHT.

Jan,

I am a new patient of Dr. John's, so we haven't talked about this yet. I just did the 24-hour urine test and haven't gotten the results back. I'm not sure what Dr. John's position on high DHT is and whether he uses anything to bring it down. I DO take DIM, but I'm not sure if it has any effect on DHT. I'd also be interested to hear Dr. John's opinion on all of this.

Mac

 

[JanSz]

Jan,

I am a new patient of Dr. John's, so we haven't talked about this yet. I just did the 24-hour urine test and haven't gotten the results back. I'm not sure what Dr. John's position on high DHT is and whether he uses anything to bring it down. I DO take DIM, but I'm not sure if it has any effect on DHT. I'd also be interested to hear Dr. John's opinion on all of this.

Mac

Thanks for responding.
Would you mind sharing details in DIM.
Mostly I am curious on how to read for example a dose size.
Say one is trying to use about 300mg of DIM, what is it?
Using Indolplex as example:
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one pill is 120mg of DIM, so I would use 2.5 pills.
I would disregard explanation that the pill actually contains 25% of bio-active DIM.
----------------------------
This bio-active or not thing is throwing monkey wrench at precise communication.

It would help to know what brand Dr recommends, other than actual amount of DIM there is an issue of I3C and other additives that are different in different brands.

When you have idea about DHT please post it.

If you rather PM me that is ok to.

 

[MacDonnell]

Thanks for responding.
Would you mind sharing details in DIM.
Mostly I am curious on how to read for example a dose size.
Say one is trying to use about 300mg of DIM, what is it?
Using Indolplex as example:
Invalid Link Removed
one pill is 120mg of DIM, so I would use 2.5 pills.
I would disregard explanation that the pill actually contains 25% of bio-active DIM.
----------------------------
This bio-active or not thing is throwing monkey wrench at precise communication.

It would help to know what brand Dr recommends, other than actual amount of DIM there is an issue of I3C and other additives that are different in different brands.

When you have idea about DHT please post it.

If you rather PM me that is ok to.

Jan,

I take only one pill per night of the Indolplex DIM. I'm not sure if Dr. John recommends any specific brand. (Also, we did not discuss dosage.) Will let you know what happens in regard to my high DHT.

Mac

 

[JanSz]

Jan,

I take only one pill per night of the Indolplex DIM. I'm not sure if Dr. John recommends any specific brand. (Also, we did not discuss dosage.) Will let you know what happens in regard to my high DHT.

Mac

Why are you taking Indolplex DIM if doctor did not asked you to take it?

 

[jaydee]

Finasteride is evil! I'd rather be bald with horrible BPH than take that stuff. It totally destroys you hormone pathways and this can be irreversible. Dr. John places his patients in two different categories: those who have never taken finasteride and those who have.

How does finasteride destroy your hormonal pathways? Does this mean that even with hormone supplementation that the hormones dont work and if so why does this happen? Does it screw your receptors or somthing?:wtf:

I also heard somthing about how finasteride destroys your hormone metabolism. How does this happen and how is it irriversible? Is it somthing to do with the liver?

Are there any long term health risks associated with this? I know that a lot of health risks can be stopped by supplementing testosterone, but if your hormonal pathways are screwed, does this mean the testosterone replacement doesnt work in all the other areas of your body too?

I dont understand how a person can feel like absolute death, in the way that only finasteride could, and yet have no long term ill ramifications.

 

[Kanecore]

How does finasteride destroy your hormonal pathways? Does this mean that even with hormone supplementation that the hormones dont work and if so why does this happen? Does it screw your receptors or somthing?:wtf:

I also heard somthing about how finasteride destroys your hormone metabolism. How does this happen and how is it irriversible? Is it somthing to do with the liver?

Are there any long term health risks associated with this? I know that a lot of health risks can be stopped by supplementing testosterone, but if your hormonal pathways are screwed, does this mean the testosterone replacement doesnt work in all the other areas of your body too?

I dont understand how a person can feel like absolute death, in the way that only finasteride could, and yet have no long term ill ramifications.

I am not going to give you a detailed answer in that I can not explain it like Dr. John can nor can I understand it in the same manner. Just realize that he puts his patients into two different categories: 1) Never used finasteride; or 2)Used Finasteride.

It seems that finasteride has a whole array of short and long term effect that create more roadblocks in trt treatment. I had used Propecia for 6 months around 1998. Based on this use, Dr. John put me in the "Used Finasteride" category.

My understanding is that Finasteride blocks testosterone from converting to DHT via 5-alpha reductase. When you block your body's natural process, it could backfire on you. Individuals react differently to similar protocols. The HPTA is touchy, the goal is hormonal balance and that goal is best met through consistency and professional medical intervention by a competent physician.

 

[JanSz]

I am not going to give you a detailed answer in that I can not explain it like Dr. John can nor can I understand it in the same manner. Just realize that he puts his patients into two different categories: 1) Never used finasteride; or 2)Used Finasteride.

It seems that finasteride has a whole array of short and long term effect that create more roadblocks in trt treatment. I had used Propecia for 6 months around 1998. Based on this use, Dr. John put me in the "Used Finasteride" category.

My understanding is that Finasteride blocks testosterone from converting to DHT via 5-alpha reductase. When you block your body's natural process, it could backfire on you. Individuals react differently to similar protocols. The HPTA is touchy, the goal is hormonal balance and that goal is best met through consistency and professional medical intervention by a competent physician.

Dr Shippen will have a chapter in his presentation in April in Orlando:
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The Proscar/Propecia problem -
• “Rare” but dangerous reactions of 5 alpha reductase inhibitors – the “Post Propecia Syndrome”
• Some treatments to consider
The dangerous mis-use of 5 alpha reductase inhibitors to “control DHT excess” during testosterone replacement
--------------------------------------------------
Wonder why he did not included Avodart in that list.
I am using one Avodart every other day.

 

[jaydee]

It seems that finasteride has a whole array of short and long term effect that create more roadblocks in trt treatment. I had used Propecia for 6 months around 1998. .

Did you ever recover? I only took the stuff for about 4 months and it completely screwed me over.

 

[christopher]

I am not going to give you a detailed answer in that I can not explain it like Dr. John can nor can I understand it in the same manner. .

I'd love to hear his explanation....I've been told to use it for years and never have....

I know that results/effects of use arent consistent....I'd alos like to know if there is a way to prescreen to see if you will get the sides from the drug....I know guys that have been on it sice the 90's when it was proscar w/out (noticable)side effects....

 

[Kanecore]

I'd love to hear his explanation....I've been told to use it for years and never have....

I know that results/effects of use arent consistent....I'd alos like to know if there is a way to prescreen to see if you will get the sides from the drug....I know guys that have been on it sice the 90's when it was proscar w/out (noticable)side effects....

I believe the makers of Propecia indicate that only 2% of users experience side effects such as erectile dysfunction, loss of libido, soft erections (this is usually due to lowered DHT levels which are essential for libido and hard erections). I am unsure of predisposition for these effects. Everyone is different. Again, Dr. John would be able to explain this in great detail. Generally, finasteride causes irreversible changes to 5-alpha reductase. A doctor must look to urine lab results to find what your 5-alpha reductase is on a cellular level. Despite elevated DHT, this is more of an indicator of possible prostate issues. What this actually means, I'm not sure.

 

[jaydee]

I believe the makers of Propecia indicate that only 2% of users experience side effects such as erectile dysfunction, loss of libido, soft erections (this is usually due to lowered DHT levels which are essential for libido and hard erections). I am unsure of predisposition for these effects. Everyone is different. Again, Dr. John would be able to explain this in great detail. Generally, finasteride causes irreversible changes to 5-alpha reductase. A doctor must look to urine lab results to find what your 5-alpha reductase is on a cellular level. Despite elevated DHT, this is more of an indicator of possible prostate issues. What this actually means, I'm not sure.

So does that mean that you dont convert T to DHT, even when you add a transdermal testosterone that usually has a high DHT conversion in a "normal" person. Or is it that you convert it to DHT but the end product of your DHT is different now and less effective?

What would happen if you added a DHT cream if all else failed and your labs said you were deficient in it?

 

[christopher]

I believe the makers of Propecia indicate that only 2% of users experience side effects such as erectile dysfunction, loss of libido, soft erections (this is usually due to lowered DHT levels which are essential for libido and hard erections). I am unsure of predisposition for these effects. Everyone is different. Again, Dr. John would be able to explain this in great detail. Generally, finasteride causes irreversible changes to 5-alpha reductase. A doctor must look to urine lab results to find what your 5-alpha reductase is on a cellular level. Despite elevated DHT, this is more of an indicator of possible prostate issues. What this actually means, I'm not sure.

The 2% is a joke IMO....You state that it is uually due to ultra low dht levels....there is way more than that going on w/the drug...

Never heard that the drug "generally" causes "irreversible" changes to 5ar.....Where did you get this info...??

And finally, where did you hear that 5ar , at a cellular level, is a good indicator of ones predisposition to prostate cancer...?

I though it(BPH) had a lot more to do w/dht/estrogen levels....

The docs that prescribe it dont know exactly how it works, just that in alot of "patients", they grow or maintain existing hair (talking about propecia here)....DR John understands the endocrine system, and has an understanding of the drug itself,....I'm anxious to hear his explanantion if/ when he gets a chance....

 

[christopher]

So does that mean that you dont convert T to DHT, even when you add a transdermal testosterone that usually has a high DHT conversion in a "normal" person. Or is it that you convert it to DHT but the end product of your DHT is different now and less effective?

What would happen if you added a DHT cream if all else failed and your labs said you were deficient in it?

Fin works to stop dht from binding to 5ar....In the process, it does some other crazy, unexplained, unpredictabe s**t to some people....
Dont think that addin DHT cream would work to counteract propecia induced effects....Something more complex going on.....

And from my understanding, DHT is DHT regardless if propecia is involved....

 

[Kanecore]

The 2% is a joke IMO....You state that it is uually due to ultra low dht levels....there is way more than that going on w/the drug...

Never heard that the drug "generally" causes "irreversible" changes to 5ar.....Where did you get this info...??

And finally, where did you hear that 5ar , at a cellular level, is a good indicator of ones predisposition to prostate cancer...?

I though it(BPH) had a lot more to do w/dht/estrogen levels....

The docs that prescribe it dont know exactly how it works, just that in alot of "patients", they grow or maintain existing hair (talking about propecia here)....DR John understands the endocrine system, and has an understanding of the drug itself,....I'm anxious to hear his explanantion if/ when he gets a chance....

The 2% figure is what the drug company indicate, but that only reflects the results experienced during the testing for FDA approval. I meant generally to reflect the drugs augmentation of 5AR and how it directly impacts T metabolism. Since I am unsure of the exact figures relative to its impact on 5AR augmentation, I say generally for discusion purposes.

When I say 5AR on a cellular level, I am loosley commenting on what Dr. John had mentioned to me concerning elevated DHT levels and urologist's interpretation thereon. Specifically, one can have elevated DHT but still have normal 5AR within the prostate cells. So the DHT reading is less than telling when determining if DHT is effecting one's prostate for purposes of evaluating BPH and prostate cancer. I cannot comment specifically on thsi statement because I am trying to grasp its meaning myself.

As far as DHT/E2 impact on BPH, I have experienced BPH for quite some time and OTC prostate formulas didn't help but Arimidex did. This would indicate that E has a lot more to do with prostate issues than DHT alone. I would like to see a study indicated the interactions betwee E, T and DHT and how they impact the prostate. I know if I miss an injection of T, my bph gets worse. But when I take the injection, my bph gets much better. It's very confusing.

 

[plymouth city]

Dr. John, I'm glad you can clarify this misinformation. Many of these sites post their garbage to sell their products. I'm glad you take the time to show us we are not trained physicians nor can we aspire to become one searching websites. I believe we come to this board for comfort and support. However, one cannot supplant our doctors recommendations or he or she won't be able to do their job and we will not benefit.

I respectfully disagree. There is so much to learn on the information highway. Ive met people threw boards who's knowledge of the endocrine system would make most MD's Ive talked to seem like inept laymen. And the internet is still in its childhood.

I do agree that one shouldn't self treat/medicate, but that goes for MD's as well.

 

[plymouth city]

Even if the 2% is the actual number of cases when side effects occur, thats still a HUGE number. Millions of people have used this medication. Do the math. Even at 2 percent, thats still alot of people.

 

[jaydee]

Fin works to stop dht from binding to 5ar....In the process, it does some other crazy, unexplained, unpredictabe s**t to some people....

This is the part that I am interested in.

Plymouth, I agree that even if it were 2% that get the side effects and even it they DID all reverse (and clearly they do not), this drug should not be aloud to be used for hair loss simply due to the devestating nature of the side effects. The psychological effect these side effects have on men are serious and long lasting.

Its absolutely crazy that this drug is prescribed for hairloss in men as young as 18. Would you beleive that the doctor that prescribed this poison to me would not even put a report in to the TGA because he claimed the side effects were all in my head? You can imagine my frustration at that point.

 

[plymouth city]

This is the part that I am interested in.

Plymouth, I agree that even if it were 2% that get the side effects and even it they DID all reverse (and clearly they do not), this drug should not be aloud to be used for hair loss simply due to the devestating nature of the side effects. The psychological effect these side effects have on men are serious and long lasting.

Its absolutely crazy that this drug is prescribed for hairloss in men as young as 18. Would you beleive that the doctor that prescribed this poison to me would not even put a report in to the TGA because he claimed the side effects were all in my head? You can imagine my frustration at that point.

Incompetent MD's is all in a days read for me - It seems like every day I hear a story from someone dealing with such.

What I cannot grasp is why anyone would choose vanity over health and well being. I mean if this was a drug that treated cancer - I understand. But it prevents.....hair loss? I have a hard time understanding why it hasn't been pulled from the market yet. And an even harder time grasping why men are so insecure about their hair.

 

[jaydee]

What I cannot grasp is why anyone would choose vanity over health and well being. I mean if this was a drug that treated cancer - I understand. But it prevents.....hair loss? I have a hard time understanding why it hasn't been pulled from the market yet. And an even harder time grasping why men are so insecure about their hair.

I dont think its so much that people are too insecure about their hair, its more that these men are not informed of the risks prior to using a drug like this. I mean it all looks fairly safe when you consider that its been around in proscar for decades at 5 times the dose. And it doesnt help when there is misleading information on the drug information about how the side effects are reversible and the percentage of those that had the sides in the first place. Had I known then what I know now about this drug, it would have been a no-brainer for me to stay as far away from it as I could and I would imagine it would be the same for most other men.

I dont know too many men who could go bald without batting an eyelid and I dont think that trying to save your hair is wrong or that you have serious insecurity issues for wanting to do so, but its more that guys dont know what they are getting themselves into with a drug like finasteride. People need to have an honest benefit to risk ratio and that is far from the case with this stuff. I could go on about it all day how unfair it is and it wouldnt change a thing. My priority now is trying to get back what ive lost and to warn other people as much as I can.

I think a drug as bad as this one is bound to hang itself sooner or later anyway, but yea ive lost all faith in the TGA/FDA.