Question for Dr. John

Kanecore

New member
Dr. John, what brand of DIM do you reccomend for our patients? Most brands add different ingredients such as IC3, Calcium D-Gluterate, Maca, Yohimbee, etc... It is very difficult to sort through the junk and recognize the quality product. I know Phil reccomends a particular brand, but many people who are taking that brand report it is lowering E2. Obviously, for those of us that take Arimidex, another aromatase inhibitor would not make sense.
 
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This brand seems comprehensive, except Dr. John recommended to take 300mg a day and their directions indicate men should take 4 tabs a day (400mg) and intensive administration is 8 tabs a day. I'm confused now. 25% diindolylmethane? Does that mean when one is recommended to take 300mg of DIM, one sould take into consideration the 25% purity? Can anyone enlighten me?
 
Kanecore said:
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This brand seems comprehensive, except Dr. John recommended to take 300mg a day and their directions indicate men should take 4 tabs a day (400mg) and intensive administration is 8 tabs a day. I'm confused now. 25% diindolylmethane? Does that mean when one is recommended to take 300mg of DIM, one sould take into consideration the 25% purity? Can anyone enlighten me?
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This brand also has 320 mgs of calcium carbonate which gives you 3200 mgs of calcium which is WHY TOO MUCH
 
Kanecore said:
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This brand seems comprehensive, except Dr. John recommended to take 300mg a day and their directions indicate men should take 4 tabs a day (400mg) and intensive administration is 8 tabs a day. I'm confused now. 25% diindolylmethane? Does that mean when one is recommended to take 300mg of DIM, one sould take into consideration the 25% purity? Can anyone enlighten me?
Click to expand...

That is a very good question.

300mg dose assuming the 25% would mean 75mg of bio-active DIM
This looks like a very large dose.
I am comparing it to:
Indolplex 1 pill=120mg of 25%=30mg
people usually are using one or half pill, otherwise they go too low, or claiming that they do.
also
LEF Dual_Action 1 pill=14mg DIM recomended 1pill per 160# body weight. Since the dose is so small I am assuming they talk about the bio-available part.
There is also
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this one is supposed to be fully bio-available, 150 or 75 mg pills. WOW, that must be a lot of DIM

and
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100mg DIM+50mg I3C

It is tough word out there.
So many DIM's, each one poorly described, make it hard to compare one pill to the other.

All that is assuming same quality.
 
Hey Phil, why do you recommend not to use DIM with Arimidex. If Arimidex is an estrogen blocker and DIM merely alters estrogen metabolism, why can't they be taken together. I am on Arimidex and Dr. John told me my 4-Hydroxyestradiol was elevated so DIM would be a good addition even though I take Arimidex.

Are you still using the following:
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I saw on the other bord that this product was actually lowering E2 in some of the guys.
 
DIM discussions started in 2005, as far as I can tell.
This is cutting edge, rabbits responses are being investigated.
We are the rabbits.
It is important to collect available information.

So far my talke home:
1. small amount (15-45mg) of bio-available DIM, say as half to 1.5 pill of Indolplex, works good

2. better way would be to get urine test for
bad estrones, urine test at Invalid Link Removed
bad estradiols (how to check them????)(how were your checked, Kanecore???)
Then take as much DIM as needed to get them down.
This action may (may not) influence E2 levels.

3. get blood test for E2, if high adjust using Arimidex

4. so far it is hard to figure out amount of DIM in different products,

5. there is two DIM categories
bottom line DIM, or Bio-available
bulk DIM, where only 25% counts

6. Watch out for I3C, also important on its own.
It is one thing to say that all what counts is that I3C converts to DIM and DIM is what counts.
Not really true, I3C have it's own estrogen (or estrodial or estriol) fighting ability.
Delgado and LEF DIM's have I3C as separate componnent

7. When taking DIM take it with TMG
What TMG does?
AFAIK from LEF it fights homocysteine, what else, what to watch for in tests (blood or urine) to determine if enough TMG was taken. If homocysteine is already below LEF recomended 7.0 umol/L (less than 6.3 better) should one take TMG?

======================

Dr J started teaching on DIM around 2005, AFAIK.
Any more posts or publications on this theme?

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========================
EndoManual 3rdEd 2004
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Kanecore, open your PM, and PM me, please.
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7. When taking DIM take it with TMG
What TMG does?
AFAIK from LEF it fights homocysteine, what else, what to watch for in tests (blood or urine) to determine if enough TMG was taken. If homocysteine is already below LEF recomended 7.0 umol/L (less than 6.3 better) should one take TMG?

======================

Dr J started teaching on DIM around 2005, AFAIK.
Any more posts or publications on this theme?

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========================
EndoManual 3rdEd 2004
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Kanecore, open your PM, and PM me, please.
===========[/QUOTE]

i have low homocystein like 3.9 and i think TMG with DIM would counteract the effects which i am trying to do raise my homocysteine levels LOL, but I am waiting for the test results to come back doing anything. Simple rule of thumb if your crap is tan vs normal color you lack bile due to low homocysteine levels. With out homocystein you can not make bile acids and bile
 
Dr. Marianco, Urine more accurate then Blood?
It is not whether or not one is more "accurate" than the other. Both are "accurate" in what they do.

The question is what test will give one the information one seeks.

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Three substances found in the same vegetables - indole-3-carbinol, 3,3'-diindolylmethane, and ascorbigen - have been found to positively modify the good/bad estrogen ratio.
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Another product containing DIM ( indole-3-carbinol (I3C), diindolylmethane (DIM), and ascorbigen (AG))
Dr. Jonathan Wright's MaleRatioTM
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When taking Dim I noticed a dramatic decrease in blood pressure was this telling me that i was actually too low in estrogen since estrogen raises blood pressure? and copper increases sodium retention because it runs parellel usually to estrogen if it is not build up in tissues. Even while on cortef... with sea salts in the morning
 
Scientific research shows diindolylmethane increases the level of "good" estrogens (2-hydroxyestrogen) while reducing the level of "bad" estrogens (16-hydroxyestrogen).
============================================
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DIM-Plus, 120 Tablets, Nature's Way
Sale price: $23.39
Serving Size 2 Capsules
Amount Per Serving - Daily Value %
Vitamin E - 9 IU - 30% (as d-alpha tocopheryl succinate)
BioResponse-DIM complex - 100 mg (patented, enhanced bioavailability complex containing 25% diindolylmethane) starch, diindolylmethane, natural vitamin E, phosphatidylcholine, silica
blessed by Dr Zeligs
so each capsule contains 50*.25=12.5mg DIM
men take up to 8 capsules/day (that is lot of DIM)
============================================
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by Michael A. Zeligs, M.D
DIM(Diindolylmethane)
Super high (x10) potency, actual DIM, no fillers!
Amount Per One (1) Capsule
DIM (Bioavailable Diindolylmethane) 75mg & 150mg
do not know if it have to be considered as full or 25%
Suggested Use: Take 1-2 tablets daily with food.
==============================================
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Estroblock (60 ct) has 100mg DIM with I3C 50mg
do not know the dose or if it have to be considered as full or 25%
===============================================
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Indolplex® Complex 120 mg *
modified food starch, 25% diindolylmethane (DIM)
120*0.25=30mg of DIM
Phil take half or one pill
===============================================
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Dual-Action
DIM (Di-indolyl-methane) 14 mg
I am assuming that it is already as the available
compared to say 30mg in Indolplex
One capsule daily for individuals weighing up to 160 pounds
I am using double dose, may be I should increase it?
================================================
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Comprehensive Steroid Hormone Profile
Estrogens
Estrone (E1)
2-Hydroxyestrone
16a-Hydroxyestrone
Estradiol (E2)
Estriol (E3)
================================================
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The CYP1A1 enzyme produces the wonderfully beneficial 2-hydroxyestrone metabolite. Therefore increasing its activity is a very good thing.

The CYP1B1 enzyme makes 4-hydroxyestrone, which, like 16-alpha-hydroxyestrone, is genotoxic, mutagenic and procarcinogenic. However, 4-OHE is inhibited with DMG. A better choice might be TMG, which becomes DMG after it donates a methyl group, and that event has various and sundary health benefits of its own. TMG must be taken at about twice the amount of DMG for its effects on estrogen management.

I have never heard anyone say this before, but perhaps we should not ever take DIM without TMG/DMG also, lest we increase 4-OHE levels. I will be lecturing on this very topic before the Royal College of Physicians in a few weeks, so maybe I have something new to share with them. Thank you for making me think about this topic today.

Calcium D-glucarate also inhibits 4-OHE. AAL Laboratories says folic acid will as well.

My understanding is that DIM improves the healthful 2-hydroxyestrone to nasty 16-alpha-hydroxyestrone ratio.
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To increase 2-OHE/16-aOHE:
Phytoestrogens
High protein, low fat diet
Reduce Omega-6 and AA generators
Add Omega-3’s
Add flaxseed
Di-indolemethane--DIM (300mg QD)
Indole-3-carbinol (I-3-C)
Inhibit aromatase activity
================================================
 
Dr. John said:
Did I say to use flax? Don't think so. If so, SHAME, SHAME on me!
Click to expand...

Ok Flax is out.
We are talking cuttin edge, shame is not right word to use. :)
But
what about DIM dose, is it still 300mg every day?
How do you describe DIM, before or after the 25% factor

What are the phytoestrogens?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JanSz
How to get my hands on your:
"A Primer on Estrogen Management in the Adult Male Patient"
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Dr. John said:
See my new lecture on stage for A4M in Orlando in April?

Okay, how about if I make an arrangement to offer it on this Forum for a small fee (from a professional service who requires this)?
Click to expand...

Suits me fine, how to pay for it.
Is it ok to bother Kim with this request?
--------------------------------
How about, I send you a check, you E-mail me the file with information.
Would be faster if you could accept credit card over internet.
On top of the file put in all kind of disclaimers, it is a cutting edge info, may change tomorrow afternoon when new data become available, and some such.
Just do it today, I am not getting any younger.
--------------------------------
While you at it:
make a list of
your publications
Dr Shippen publications
other relevant publications
make them available for purchase and/or for vieving from your web site.
----------------------------------
Expand to DHT and prostate management.
 
Kanecore said:
Hey Phil, why do you recommend not to use DIM with Arimidex. If Arimidex is an estrogen blocker and DIM merely alters estrogen metabolism, why can't they be taken together. I am on Arimidex and Dr. John told me my 4-Hydroxyestradiol was elevated so DIM would be a good addition even though I take Arimidex.

Are you still using the following:
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I saw on the other bord that this product was actually lowering E2 in some of the guys.
Click to expand...

I had to stop the Indolplex/DIM because we found I feel better at higher levels of TT and Ft and taking more then one tablet of Indolplex/DIM made me sick to my stomach and gave me a bad headache. My Dr. feels doing them both would be ok but doing this I have very bad skin rashs and broke out in hives. I don't feel they should be taking together.
Phil
 
pmgamer18 said:
I had to stop the Indolplex/DIM because we found I feel better at higher levels of TT and Ft and taking more then one tablet of Indolplex/DIM made me sick to my stomach and gave me a bad headache. My Dr. feels doing them both would be ok but doing this I have very bad skin rashs and broke out in hives. I don't feel they should be taking together.
Phil
Click to expand...

DIM plus TMG and Arimidex influences at least:

homocysteine

Estrone (E1)
2-Hydroxyestrone
16a-Hydroxyestrone

Estradiol (E2)

have you tested them?
how they behave in your case?

What else is influenced by the above?
 
I believe that I read somewhere in this forum that studies have shown that supplementing with Flax seeds/oil can raise estrogen levels..


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pmgamer18 said:
Here is a good link I came accross.
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Phil
Click to expand...

I was wondering about this article.
They promote, or at least do not single out flax.

IIRC, Dr John's position was that Flax have good name (Omega-3) but really it is something useless, he did not say harmfull.
It is about lenght of chemical chain, flax have too short chain.

Hopefully Dr John chimes in.
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Other than from Dr John I have not heard of uselesness of flax, everybody likes it.
 
JanSz said:
I was wondering about this article.
They promote, or at least do not single out flax.

IIRC, Dr John's position was that Flax have good name (Omega-3) but really it is something useless, he did not say harmfull.
It is about lenght of chemical chain, flax have too short chain.

Hopefully Dr John chimes in.
==================================================
Other than from Dr John I have not heard of uselesness of flax, everybody likes it.
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With anything moderation is the key!! i was a flax seed oil freak for several years untill evetually knocked out my arachondic acid balance. Thats another story LOL That probably way my CRP is not even detacatable HAHA
 
doctors?

are some of you guys doctors on this forum? i know dr john is....

i just wonder how if not....you can know so much about this stuff

gezzzzzz...makes me feel like an imbasil :o(

anyone wana talk cars? motorcycles? powerplant valves.....i know wrong forum.

i just find it so interesting that you guys can understand so much about this stuff.

bob
 
bobbyn said:
are some of you guys doctors on this forum? i know dr john is....

i just wonder how if not....you can know so much about this stuff

gezzzzzz...makes me feel like an imbasil :o(

anyone wana talk cars? motorcycles? powerplant valves.....i know wrong forum.

i just find it so interesting that you guys can understand so much about this stuff.

bob
Click to expand...

We may be hormonal wacked but we still have our intellect, but some of us are still alittle a few sandwiches short of a full picnic basket. HEY HEY BOO BOO :icon_lol:
 
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