Liver Pills do not protect the liver!
- Thread starter Umpire10589
- Start date
yeahright
Well-known member
NAC already an approved treatment for tylenol overdose, new study to research therapeutic use for other liver ailments.
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-articles/46114-therapeutic-clinical-trial-study-use-n.html
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-articles/46114-therapeutic-clinical-trial-study-use-n.html
bigSMokey
Member
yeahright said:
Not to mention that Silymarin is listed with a therapy category of Hepatoprotectant in the Merck Index. To put it into to perspective for those unfamiliar with the Merck Index:
1) The Merck is often referred to as the "bible" or "dictionary" of drugs and chemicals.
2) One sees things like ibuprofen, morphine, diphenhydramine, etc, next to the term "Theapy Category" in this book.
Therefore milk thistle (Silymarin) is not merely one of those 100's of questionably effective herbs like echinacea or gincko.
Supersquad
New member
what is it
Well after several years of using 1-AD and now Superdrol, I have been told by military doctors I possibly have AUTOIMMUNE HEPATITIS. But after looking at the symptoms and reading all about I wondered. Yeah my AST & liver enzymes have been high but have returned to normal after the cycle. I just can't mention (I know my current status means I might have to) that I am on Superdrol now that it is banned. 14 years of service 6 to go, I kinda want to retire. So I see this Liver Longer and NAC being talked about here. I don't want to get a biopsy and possibly stop lifting. So is this product possible in assisting with returning the levels to a norm in the liver?
And I appreciate the advice too.
Well after several years of using 1-AD and now Superdrol, I have been told by military doctors I possibly have AUTOIMMUNE HEPATITIS. But after looking at the symptoms and reading all about I wondered. Yeah my AST & liver enzymes have been high but have returned to normal after the cycle. I just can't mention (I know my current status means I might have to) that I am on Superdrol now that it is banned. 14 years of service 6 to go, I kinda want to retire. So I see this Liver Longer and NAC being talked about here. I don't want to get a biopsy and possibly stop lifting. So is this product possible in assisting with returning the levels to a norm in the liver?
And I appreciate the advice too.
ripped22
Member
uh, stop taking ORAL steroids and your values will return to normal. otherwise you will continue to have elevated liver enzymes.
CROWLER
Anabolic Innovations Owner
That is why it was put in Cycle Support by LakeMountD
Two servings provide:
Two servings provide the following:
Red Yeast Rice 1200 mg
Silymarin (milk thistle extract) 1000 mg
NAC 1200 mg
Hawthorn Berry 1000 mg
Saw Palmetto 300 mg
Policosonol 20 mg
Celery Seed Extract 150 mg
Nettle Root 250 mg
Idebenone 100 mg
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CROWLER
Supersquad
New member
Rip
now you know once you have gains and the strength that some wish they had, it is quite hard to stop. Now I did stop for some months but decided to space my dosage like 1-2 caps of Superdrol a week. Hell I am using mega weight for several movements. At 35 I feel good at the weight I use. Damn this sucks.
now you know once you have gains and the strength that some wish they had, it is quite hard to stop. Now I did stop for some months but decided to space my dosage like 1-2 caps of Superdrol a week. Hell I am using mega weight for several movements. At 35 I feel good at the weight I use. Damn this sucks.
T-Bone
Banned
If you guys read about my liver problems with SuperDrol, maybe you would not believe that these liver protection type supplements don't do a thing. I was taking Milk Thistle Plus 4 tabs of Liv-52 for a month before the cycle, plus on cycle. I was told by the specialist, the guy linked below, "Treating one problem caused by one pill with another is pointless", "If there was actually a pill that could protect the liver, it would be a pharmaceutical and not sold over the counter". Yes I read "studies" on Milk Thistle and Liv-52, but just because there is a study on something, doesn't necessarily mean that it actually works. There are just too many factors involved.
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This guy was my doctor, I live in Maine but they sent me to Burlington Mass Lahey Clinic because they specialize in this kind of thing. I don't believe a lot of things that doctors say, but call me crazy I believe what he said about these "Liver Protection" supplements.
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This guy was my doctor, I live in Maine but they sent me to Burlington Mass Lahey Clinic because they specialize in this kind of thing. I don't believe a lot of things that doctors say, but call me crazy I believe what he said about these "Liver Protection" supplements.
ripped22
Member
i hear ya bro. we all wish there weren't consequences to remaining on cycle. but the reality is that there are, especially with harsh orals like SD. believe me you can maintain superdrol gains very well and i'll bet if your diet is good you won't lose a thing. don't use these drugs as a crutch. they will win in the end!
hey there are non hormonal alternatives like IGF lr3 that are very effective if used properly. i use these peptides in pct and they work great. you can make very nice lean gains on this stuff but it requires pinning.
speaking of pinning you should learn to use injectables. you can stay on alot longer and it is 10x healthier on your organs in moderate doses. guarantee you liver values would not be f'ed up if you were on a 4 month test cycle instead of popping SD like candy...lol
Supersquad
New member
First off Guys thanks for some real info. Glad I came back to this forum and damn shame on me for waiting to long to ask.
Well I know there is something going on in my little liver because I do feel a slight pain but damn it I don't want to be cut by some military doctor and stuff.
I know just like the heart the liver repairs itself but how long? Going along with a clean diet and no other drugs per say.
Rip I appreciate the advice. I thought about the cycle though being military I would have a hard time with diet and well it is a quite difficult when you have crappy gym then I move to a place that has better gym, all that time I have wasted through the years of trying to get big then bam, but I know you understand my raving. Ok I am done this just sucks major balls, well it was great to conquer those heavy weights.
Well I know there is something going on in my little liver because I do feel a slight pain but damn it I don't want to be cut by some military doctor and stuff.
I know just like the heart the liver repairs itself but how long? Going along with a clean diet and no other drugs per say.
Rip I appreciate the advice. I thought about the cycle though being military I would have a hard time with diet and well it is a quite difficult when you have crappy gym then I move to a place that has better gym, all that time I have wasted through the years of trying to get big then bam, but I know you understand my raving. Ok I am done this just sucks major balls, well it was great to conquer those heavy weights.
UnicronSpawn
Active member
I dont know weather or not natural liver support supps would help you avoid having to "go under the knife", but I DO agree w/ ripped 22 about injectables being a better option for anyone w/ liver issues. You might have to hide them and go take your shots incognito. (IE: make it seem like your going to take a crap or something when you take your shots.) But if do the best you can w/ what you have to work w/ you could still get something out of it. You dont have to do any complex or high dose cycle, you could just use 500-600mg's of test/wk and eat and train the best you can given the circumstances. If the medical stuff keeps you out of the gym for a while you'll rebound incredibly fast when you return on a basic test cycle and consistant training. You'll probably surpass your previous best despite the lack of ideal food supply because you got to where you were inspite of that before.
Good luck w/ the liver bro. Hope you dont need any drastic treatment.
UnicronSpawn
Active member
With all due respect to your doctor, (Im sure he's very knowledgeable.) But being that he specializes in liver treatments, If there WAS a cheap effective OTC product for liver detoxification it woudnt be in HIS best financial interest to endorse it. Because THATS WHAT HE DOES. He treats people who ALLREADY HAVE liver problems.
A couple points to consider:
1) him saying that "if there was a liver detoxicant that worked it wouldnt be OTC", shows either a lack of understanding of how supplement laws work, or he's just not crediting you for having the intelligence to know how the supplement laws work.
Being a naturaly occuring compound means it can be sold OTC. Period. Regardless if it works or not. Just because something is natural and sold OTC means exactly NOTHING. It doesnt confirm that the product works, it doesnt confirm that it doesnt. It doesnt even mean there is or isnt credible research confirming or denying it's effectiveness.
2) If he really said that counteracting the negative's of one pill w/ another is pointless, he's not being objective. That is blantantly stated as an OPINION. That tells me that in his "assesment" taking one thing to reap the benefits of it and concurrently taking something that counteracts the "bad" effects of it, w/out counteracting the "desiered effects is a waste of time in HIS OPINION. (not very scientific).
Or, if what he meant to say was that it's not effective to do so...... well maybe in the case of hepatatoxic w/ alleged liver detoxicants that may or may not be accurate..... but to generalize it they way he did about all pills is ABSOLUTELY FALSE. If that were true than taking nolvadex w/ aromatizeable anabolic steroids would either be innefective at preventing estrogenic sides, or would completely negate the positive benefits of the AAS. Wich is obviously not the case.
FYI777
Member
No longer an art that required the doctor to balance a patient's physical, chemical, mental, and spiritual states, medicine became a science---a science based on biochemistry. Life had been reduced to a continuous series of chemical reactions, and the idea was born that all disease could best be treated with chemicals. This philosophy has remained practically unchanged to this very day. But along with this philosophy, a disturbing trend emerged---the treatment of natural medicines and remedies with a high degree of skepticism. More emphasis is placed on the origin of medicine than on it's effectiveness. As such, many very safe and effective natural products have been erroneously labeled as unscientific or unproven.*
from foreword of "Sharks still don't get cancer"
from foreword of "Sharks still don't get cancer"
UnicronSpawn
Active member
And alot of those natural compounds dont HAVE anyone TOO pay for research to validate them. They are so cheap and abundant that nobody is making so much money that they could practically afford to fund such a study, and big pharma companies who DO have the money arent likely to waste it on something that has little profit potential, regardless of if it works or not. But changing the laws to require the same approval process as is required allready for RX remedies would destroy the supplement industry by making them fund their own research to get natural cheap and effective products approved. The ones that COULD afford it would spend less time on the compounds that offered less of a profit margin and subsequently would become more like the pharma companies anyway. Essentially driving cheap natural alternatives to the black market or at best grey market.
FYI777
Member
Yeahright mentioned plenty of studies validating milk thistle, who funded those? As I saw 1 was from Argentina,one from Poland,US(Kentucky),US(Colorado),MayoClinic(unbelievable!!!),what you meant to say was to PATENT them,not validate them.
We funded those,the taxpayer.(at least in US)
T-Bone
Banned
Well I do agree with you on most of what you have said. Its hard to talk to a doctor anyway. You really can't reason with them....But I do agree to a certain point about not taking one pill to counter the bad effects of another one. You can keep adding and adding different pills and you are worse off than just taking say 2 supplements 1 that counters the bad effects of the other. The more you take the more stress is put on your liver, so in a sense your doing more harm than good..eventually. As far as the liver protection pills, yes they may help to a certain degree, but none will "stop" a toxic from being "toxic". What I believe is there is a certain point where they just won't work, a certain point at which the help that they provide will not be enough. In my opinion and since I have been through this, the lowest amout of pills you can take the better. In hindsight some mistakes that I made were taking too many protection supplements, that just added to the problem. Maybe not enough of the "liver protection" and too much of others. I have no permanant damage though, my liver is just like new!..as of a year or so ago.
Supersquad
New member
So could the use of this stuff cause Autoimmune Hep? This is what I face and military doctors are not easy to talk to because they "pull rank". I am on those liver longer pills along with NAC, am I doomed?
NO HYPE
Active member
So I see that your father has been grossly misinformed.
Ask your father what he thinks about any of the thiol nutrients (e.g. NAC/ALA/Silymarin
).Hospitals around the world administer NAC every day. This due to the FACT that NAC significantly up-regulates glutathione (our primary immunoprotective/hepatoprotective mechanism). N-Acetyl-P-Benzoquinone Imine (NAPQI) is a cytotoxic P450-reactive metabolite that is formed in the presence of an acetaminophen overdose, and NAC is the thiol nutrient that is clinically chosen to detoxify NAPQI, and has been shown to up-regulate total glutathione (up to 58%), and [size=+1]intracellular glutathione (up to 92%)[/size].
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UnicronSpawn
Active member
I take liv 52 and sometimes milk thistle either during or after bouts of 17aa compounds, and I look at them as insurance. Theyre inexpensive enough that it's a pretty easy deciscion to make for me. Mypoint was that when a doctor or anyone says that something cant work because it's not a pharmaceutical, or because there isnt much research or (in some cases their just not aware of the research). They are being just as speculative as someone who says they DO work. The fact that it's not sold as a pharmaceutical doesnt prove much to me.
They would have to EVEN MORE research to get it approved as a prescription drug ("Patent" as FYI777 clarafied, wich is a good point because "validation" leaves room for individual subjectivity, where as "Patent" is not dependant on every last person believing in the data they are presented with). I just dont see it as being something that would sell for enough $$$ for pharm co's to go further into research of compounds such as these (Liv 52, milk thistle etc.) If they did, Id actually be kind of dissapointed, because that would most likely mean Id have to pay 5x's as much for it so they could get their investments worth out of it. Or at least it would go toward using up my insurance limit for the year. Lol. As it is now, these products cost about the same as my co-pay for generic medicines through my insurance co. DSHEA has been a blessing for me.
They would have to EVEN MORE research to get it approved as a prescription drug ("Patent" as FYI777 clarafied, wich is a good point because "validation" leaves room for individual subjectivity, where as "Patent" is not dependant on every last person believing in the data they are presented with). I just dont see it as being something that would sell for enough $$$ for pharm co's to go further into research of compounds such as these (Liv 52, milk thistle etc.) If they did, Id actually be kind of dissapointed, because that would most likely mean Id have to pay 5x's as much for it so they could get their investments worth out of it. Or at least it would go toward using up my insurance limit for the year. Lol. As it is now, these products cost about the same as my co-pay for generic medicines through my insurance co. DSHEA has been a blessing for me.
FYI777
Member
"... but none will "stop" a toxic from being "toxic"."
Actually taking sufficient milk thistle within a certain time frame(like 24 hours) of ingested toxic amanita's like amanita virosa (called Destroying Angel, one of thee most deadly of wild mushrooms) has prevented DEATH and fatal liver damage. These mushrooms cause death through their action on the liver.
Actually taking sufficient milk thistle within a certain time frame(like 24 hours) of ingested toxic amanita's like amanita virosa (called Destroying Angel, one of thee most deadly of wild mushrooms) has prevented DEATH and fatal liver damage. These mushrooms cause death through their action on the liver.
FrTimothy
Member
proven human testing
I don't know where this joker gets off on saying there is no proof anywhere. In Germany presciption of Herbal supplements BY MEDICAL DOCTORS is common place. Everything from St. John's Wort for mild depression to yep, you got it, Milk Thistle for alcohol induced cirrhosis. 3 million Germans can't be wrong and it's not like they are a third world country.
What is the *purpose* of the original post? to state the blindfolded American Medical Association's flawed and retarded philosphy on medicine that is rooted in the phamaceutical industry!
I don't know where this joker gets off on saying there is no proof anywhere. In Germany presciption of Herbal supplements BY MEDICAL DOCTORS is common place. Everything from St. John's Wort for mild depression to yep, you got it, Milk Thistle for alcohol induced cirrhosis. 3 million Germans can't be wrong and it's not like they are a third world country.
What is the *purpose* of the original post? to state the blindfolded American Medical Association's flawed and retarded philosphy on medicine that is rooted in the phamaceutical industry!