Thyroid, Adrenals and working out

Scottyo

Well-known member
A few unresolved questions from some others threads have led me to ask everyone's advice...especially Dr. John's on these related questions?


For those on cortisol and thyroid treatment, what is your opinion on exercising or avoiding exercise? Ive heard opinions of both...some people say to just rest your adrenals for a while, while others (a few docs included) see no reason to ever stop exercising...although a week or so off is of course beneficial.

Secondly, for someone recovering from these issues, what is the ideal diet to go along with supplementation? Some say keto, or at least very low carb to prevent insulin swings, others say moderate but lower GI carbs.
 
Scottyo,
I can't exactly comment on thyroid/diet exactly, but I can tell you this - basically every study coming out in the last few years points to a moderate, low GL carb based diet(basically the south beach/paleo/mediterranean) as bieng the most ideal, healthy diet out. The undeniable cholesterol/hormonal data just can't be refuted.

One would assume that like most organs in the body, they tend to work in harmony - meaning if alot of data is out there proving this type of diet is best at achieving stable cholesterol levels, blood sugar, hormone profiles, heart disease markers, etc. that it would have similar effect on the adrenals/thyroid. I'd bet the farm on it.

I would shy away from completely low carb diets. Fruits, veggies, nutts, legumes, yogurt, mushrooms, etc have just to many disease fighting compounds/antioxidents in them.
 
Although I felt great on the low carb..high protein..high fat diet, I feel this may be part of the cause of my problems over a decade ago. Along with the overtraining I was doing.
 
fbcoach said:
Although I felt great on the low carb..high protein..high fat diet, I feel this may be part of the cause of my problems over a decade ago. Along with the overtraining I was doing.
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Yep its called insulin resistance from high fat diets. high fats diets were designed for only seizure patience and alot of people that I have talked to that have used them well they are having inuslin problems now.
 
hardasnails1973 said:
Yep its called insulin resistance from high fat diets. high fats diets were designed for only seizure patience and alot of people that I have talked to that have used them well they are having inuslin problems now.
Click to expand...

It's funny..because I got the workout and diet from Dr. Mauro Pasquale (The Anabolic Diet). I had used low dose steroids for 4-5 years with great success. Then I was hanging up the competition gloves and went natural. So I talked with the Dr. (Pasquale) a few times and decided to follow his diet amd workout. To be honest, it worked better than I could had imagined for about 2 1/2 years. That's when I noticed my problems. Hopefully Dr. Crisler can help me out here now that I am in his hands:)
 
hardasnails1973 said:
Yep its called insulin resistance from high fat diets. high fats diets were designed for only seizure patience and alot of people that I have talked to that have used them well they are having inuslin problems now.
Click to expand...

Wow I've never heard of this.


Edit: I have heard of this but it was from diets high is saturated fat if I remember correctly.
 
hardasnails1973 said:
Yep its called insulin resistance from high fat diets. high fats diets were designed for only seizure patience and alot of people that I have talked to that have used them well they are having inuslin problems now.
Click to expand...

what do you recommend now HAN? I saw that you and trouble were working through a number of ideas.

Still the high eggs? Im doing 3 eggs in the AM 3 at dinner time, plus some brown rice and half a cup of oatmeal for lunch. a few other carbs and mostly lean meats besides. cals are fairly low compared to what i used to eat i think...but im pretty much sedentary right now.

thus, the reason i asked about working out and adrenal fatigue.
 
Scottyo said:
what do you recommend now HAN? I saw that you and trouble were working through a number of ideas.

Still the high eggs? Im doing 3 eggs in the AM 3 at dinner time, plus some brown rice and half a cup of oatmeal for lunch. a few other carbs and mostly lean meats besides. cals are fairly low compared to what i used to eat i think...but im pretty much sedentary right now.

thus, the reason i asked about working out and adrenal fatigue.
Click to expand...

I have been identified as histamine intolerance which is directly linked to adrenal fatigue which was caused by contaminated food that was never treated properly. Look up scromboid poisoning and you will see all the lovely side effects that nearly killed me. Excessive histmaine from the bacterial from histidine decarbolxyation caused serotonin levels to drop, zinc and copper defiecinecy. So by trying to replace the zinc i was driving my copper into the ground as well as increasing more histmaine release. YES TOO MUCH ZINC CAN MAKE HISTMAINES and hence lower your cortisol levels. So lesson to be learned is check to see if you have hidden infections which could be causing your body to alter your histimine metaobilsm which ultimately will affect your adrenal.thyroid. and testosterone levels. Clinically go back to the source of the problem. If there was an underlying in fections look at your WBC count mine has been consistantly low this whole time which is pure indication of adrenal fatigue and copper imbalances. Getting stool sample, intestinal premeability test as well as small bacteria overgrowth. I have arachindic acid deficioency as well as omega 3 not DHA/EPA, but ALA and LA deficeincy so yes i am still doing the eggs now Friday I am going to allergies to check what foods I am allergic to help reduce the histmaine in my body. MY steps to complete recovery identify the pathgen reduce zinc intake up copper to 8:1 ratio no zinc over 30 mgs a day plus 3-4 mgs of copper. Since copper is needed for the enzyme DAO to metabolize histimines replenish it plus taking care of the source infection will bring body back into balance and thyroid /adrenals/ testosterone will kick back on. I beleive this is a much over looked and simple remdy exceptional for people that have higher estrogen levels because histmaines will interfer with methylation

Reason i know this is what is going on is that
1. My urine histamines are 6 times the highest level
2. organic acid test showed elevated hippruic acid which after 2 years i finally figured out that it was telling me I was dealing with excessive histmaines and amines which where directly lreated to the food born pathogen. i have ecoli and it was never treated and further researching it found it to release excessive histamines as well as all the other lovely critters down there.

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As to question of high fat diets an inuslin resistance. I think my point was made

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So copper is a big one eh?

I can't pinpoint the source of mine, although I know I have bad dysbiosis and candida (from a CDSA), and have leaky gut from years of NSAID use and 5-6 times a year i used to use antibiotics....so besides the dieting, dnp, androgens etc. Ive done some very bad things to my body. Since I was a sickly child (asthma, allergies etc.) I think some of this is something thats always been present with me. Plus, I used to use a lot of prednisone for my asthma and would play sports evne while on it (and very ill).

But to my other questions, what diet exactly? and im still waiting on an answer from you and others on the exercise. yay or nay?
 
HAN,
I notice after I eat sometimes, that my nose gets stuffed up. This is really prevelant when my nervous system seems to be stressed. Could this be related to high histamine levels?
 
fbcoach said:
HAN,
I notice after I eat sometimes, that my nose gets stuffed up. This is really prevelant when my nervous system seems to be stressed. Could this be related to high histamine levels?
Click to expand...

Histmaines are a very common looked thing and inorder to get this idenitified properly you need to have them identifed and a blood test will not do it, but a scratch test will and see how your body responds. Do you tend to break out in lsight rashes underneath your arm pits or other areas of your body. I found I was allergic to even vitamin I was taking because of the binders they were using were sorbitol which was irritating the crap out of me. First thing I complained about from the get go i was short on breath they labeled as depression. BS depression in my opinon is a symptom of the cause not the actual cause. DRs were too freaken lazy and they new what it was and then hoped it was to go away. Instead of the stress being the cause may be its the food intolaerance you could have triggering. I am going to allergiest friday and to isolate the cause to reduce histamines and get my health back.. Instead of playing guessing game with this does that and may be it was this your going to stress your self out trying to pin point what is causing it thats why i am letting experts tell me what to eat and not to eat and by having scratch tests there are no mistakes..
 
Scottyo said:
So copper is a big one eh?

I can't pinpoint the source of mine, although I know I have bad dysbiosis and candida (from a CDSA), and have leaky gut from years of NSAID use and 5-6 times a year i used to use antibiotics....so besides the dieting, dnp, androgens etc. Ive done some very bad things to my body. Since I was a sickly child (asthma, allergies etc.) I think some of this is something thats always been present with me. Plus, I used to use a lot of prednisone for my asthma and would play sports evne while on it (and very ill).

But to my other questions, what diet exactly? and im still waiting on an answer from you and others on the exercise. yay or nay?
Click to expand...

SCotty looke at your WBC count if they are low you are probably dealing with a hidden infection and may need more cortisol because people with cushings syndrome have elevated WBC and people with addisons have low, people with adrenal fatigue have low normal. Your excessive abuse of the fish oils will take 4-6 months for your liver to recylce them so just give it time and they will balanice them selves out as for working out you need to identify degree of adrenal fatigue and treat it accordingly. I take 5 mgs cortef before working out which helps alot but I have been clnically diagnosed with adrenal fatigue. other indicators of adrenal fatigu are also slighly high calcium levels. Yess copper is a huge on that is over looked by drs and mine is always low normal same as zinc it never comes up but if you look at histadelics that would explain why as well as elevated urine histamines.
 
my wbc is always low. dietary wise ive pretty much cut out everything, although my CDSA did not show inflamation to any degree in the stomach (could the cortisol i was on blunt this...ie the isocort). im on the full 8 pills of isocort, and i think its not enough. if i even take a good 30 minute walk outside, ill 'feel it later'. cant sleep, pain in midback around kidneys, and cant feel like i can take a deep breath. its frustrating as all hell.
 
Low white blood cells is from lack of cortisol or biounavailable copper or plain copper defieincy. Have your serum copper, ceruoplasm and also RBC SOD checked this will identify if there is a copper imbalance. if there is an imbalance next thing needs to be done is 24 hour piss test to see if you are retaining are excreting copper. Again source of the porblem could be a hidden allergie or sensitiy you are not aware off and allergie scratch test can identify it. I bet you are pissing out a crap load of histamines even though whole blood is normal thats because your inability to metabolize estrogen/ and histmaines is altered probably due to your undermethylation of the liver as trouble has idenitfied. Did you have low DHEA-s levels? People that are undermethyated have a defect in the metallothionein process and this means that alterations in heavy metals and detoxifications will be altered as well as fungus infection and immune system impairment. If your copper metabolism is altered so is your selenium enzymes and also vitamin E as well as methylation .ITs one vicious cycle thats for sure

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i originally had fairly low dhea-s levels. then i did the saliva and my DHEA was high, but that was after supplementing with 50mg ED. I am now down to 25mg a day. So what form of copper should I be taking? I cant really get many tests done, my main doc is in michigan and I am NYC. My endo here sucks...i pretty much refuse to see him as he never even did anything but give me androgel...and wanted me to take it every Other day.
 
Scottyo said:
i originally had fairly low dhea-s levels. then i did the saliva and my DHEA was high, but that was after supplementing with 50mg ED. I am now down to 25mg a day. So what form of copper should I be taking? I cant really get many tests done, my main doc is in michigan and I am NYC. My endo here sucks...i pretty much refuse to see him as he never even did anything but give me androgel...and wanted me to take it every Other day.
Click to expand...


That guy is a freaken idiots IMO. Well what needs to be identifed if you need copper or need to chelate it. How much vitamin C, zinc are you taking and what form of copper is in multivitmain if it is oxide its CRAP. IM on yahoo or aol as my screen name here. Low dhea levels could be from magneisum, copper, or chromium deficeincy which again goes back to your infection which depelted the hell out of your minerals. Copper is a tricky thing with people with adrenal fatigue. Most people have biounavialble which means you might have to give a little bit to get the well pumping so to speak but not too much..2 mgs would be a good start to experiment with.
 
hardasnails1973 said:
Histmaines are a very common looked thing and inorder to get this idenitified properly you need to have them identifed and a blood test will not do it, but a scratch test will and see how your body responds. Do you tend to break out in lsight rashes underneath your arm pits or other areas of your body. I found I was allergic to even vitamin I was taking because of the binders they were using were sorbitol which was irritating the crap out of me. First thing I complained about from the get go i was short on breath they labeled as depression. BS depression in my opinon is a symptom of the cause not the actual cause. DRs were too freaken lazy and they new what it was and then hoped it was to go away. Instead of the stress being the cause may be its the food intolaerance you could have triggering. I am going to allergiest friday and to isolate the cause to reduce histamines and get my health back.. Instead of playing guessing game with this does that and may be it was this your going to stress your self out trying to pin point what is causing it thats why i am letting experts tell me what to eat and not to eat and by having scratch tests there are no mistakes..
Click to expand...

Thanks Han,
I just went to Dr. Crisler last week for a consult. Maybe he can get to the bottom of it.
 
exactly what i thought. one big question I have for you, and for anyone on thyroid and cortisol:

they say to take the thyroid and then wait an hour for food. I have been taking my isocort (3-4 pills) at the same time as the thyroid. but now im reading that the cortisol should be taken with food. whats your solution?
 
fbcoach said:
Thanks Han,
I just went to Dr. Crisler last week for a consult. Maybe he can get to the bottom of it.
Click to expand...

i am sure he will get to bottom of things I am waiting to get labs test back and then I will let him do the thinking on this on and stop being my own dr finally. I have no reason why I even pay these people because I am one doing all the freaken research. I got over 4,000 hours easily logged in to Gov't base looking up research material. When it comes to hormones i will let dr john handle it its out of my expertise though I am learning :)
 
Dr. John said:
Working out is a good thing.
Click to expand...


Absolutely true although with anything too much of a good thing can be a bad thing and lead to over training and hormonal imbalances as we all have experienced at one time on another. Even too much sex can be bad for some one and even can kill some body with preexisting heart conditoins, but that person be going out with a big ass smile on their face :woohoo:
 
Dr. John said:
Working out is a good thing.
Click to expand...



I understand this in a general framework, and since I used to be competing (bodybuilding) I can assure you my body is/was in incredibly good shape muscularly and aerobically.

But my question is, if I am having trouble (anxiety, etc.) from my 1 grain thyroid dose, and my temperature is fluctuating all over the place, both over the course of the day and between days, should I NOT work out.

When I work out, the next two days are genearlly my worst, emotionally, physically and psychologically. Its frustrating, because its something I love to do.
 
Dr. John said:
Yes, they may not be able to figure out exactly what killed him, but it'll take a week to get the smile off his face!

Besides, it could result in some GREAT last words.
Click to expand...

Or better off a hell of a story for future generations to come. Talking about going out in a blazs of glory..
:icon_lol:
 
Scottyo said:
A few unresolved questions from some others threads have led me to ask everyone's advice...especially Dr. John's on these related questions?


For those on cortisol and thyroid treatment, what is your opinion on exercising or avoiding exercise? Ive heard opinions of both...some people say to just rest your adrenals for a while, while others (a few docs included) see no reason to ever stop exercising...although a week or so off is of course beneficial.

Secondly, for someone recovering from these issues, what is the ideal diet to go along with supplementation? Some say keto, or at least very low carb to prevent insulin swings, others say moderate but lower GI carbs.
Click to expand...

I just found this forum and signed up because of Dr. John. I am in the same boat as you and few other guys here, adrenal fatigue and the other issues. I hit ROCK bottom last year after almost 20 years of on and off again but steadily worsening fatigue, lethargy, myofascial pain and most of the rest of the list of symptoms for adrenal fatigue and low T. The anxiety attacks are what finally sent me to see DJ last year. Treatment is really helping me out. Though things aren't as good for me now as at the beginning of treatment (that initial rush), I'm a lot better than I had become. Cortisol made a day and night difference in a few hours for me, so you can see that my adrenals are really shot. This is from 20 some years of heavy labor, weight training (too hard, too often for too long) martial arts (too hard, too often...you get it) and what seems to me a genetic predisposition to burn out at age 30 (whole side of my family, when they reach 30, BAM, necks go, backs go all kinds of health problems kick in)

Even with treatment, I am still only able to work out (bodyweight, light weights and cables, light "shadow boxing" style striking, not all at once but a different combination each week) once a week. Sometimes I can also walk 2 or 3 times a week for 45minutes, but only for a few weeks at a time before I fatigue again. I've got lumbar and cervical issues (stenosis, herniated discs, arthritis and narrow spinal canal) as well and when I get fatigued the muscles in my neck spasm and I get nausea, headaches, disequilibrium, parasthesias down both arms, and other fun stuff. I really have to take it slow and careful. I monitor whether or not I've got that "clutching chest" feeling from anxiety, my overall muscle pain and trigger points, and disequilibrium, etc from neck, sciatica from lumbar and energy levels to determine workouts. I have to be really up on it because my natural disposition is to work out (hard/to failure) no matter how much pain I'm in, that's what got me where I am now, so I've got to train myself to make haste slowly and carefully.

Massage helps/has always helped me out GREATLY but who can afford it regularly?
My best diet results have always been cutting out all grains,
eating a lot of veggies and fruit and meat, with a lot of fish oil. Whenever I manage to stick to that STRICT for a few weeks I always think about how great I feel, but human nature, I slide out of it again.
 
GRIMNURUK said:
I just found this forum and signed up because of Dr. John. I am in the same boat as you and few other guys here, adrenal fatigue and the other issues. I hit ROCK bottom last year after almost 20 years of on and off again but steadily worsening fatigue, lethargy, myofascial pain and most of the rest of the list of symptoms for adrenal fatigue and low T. The anxiety attacks are what finally sent me to see DJ last year. Treatment is really helping me out. Though things aren't as good for me now as at the beginning of treatment (that initial rush), I'm a lot better than I had become. Cortisol made a day and night difference in a few hours for me, so you can see that my adrenals are really shot. This is from 20 some years of heavy labor, weight training (too hard, too often for too long) martial arts (too hard, too often...you get it) and what seems to me a genetic predisposition to burn out at age 30 (whole side of my family, when they reach 30, BAM, necks go, backs go all kinds of health problems kick in)

Even with treatment, I am still only able to work out (bodyweight, light weights and cables, light "shadow boxing" style striking, not all at once but a different combination each week) once a week. Sometimes I can also walk 2 or 3 times a week for 45minutes, but only for a few weeks at a time before I fatigue again. I've got lumbar and cervical issues (stenosis, herniated discs, arthritis and narrow spinal canal) as well and when I get fatigued the muscles in my neck spasm and I get nausea, headaches, disequilibrium, parasthesias down both arms, and other fun stuff. I really have to take it slow and careful. I monitor whether or not I've got that "clutching chest" feeling from anxiety, my overall muscle pain and trigger points, and disequilibrium, etc from neck, sciatica from lumbar and energy levels to determine workouts. I have to be really up on it because my natural disposition is to work out (hard/to failure) no matter how much pain I'm in, that's what got me where I am now, so I've got to train myself to make haste slowly and carefully.

Massage helps/has always helped me out GREATLY but who can afford it regularly?
My best diet results have always been cutting out all grains,
eating a lot of veggies and fruit and meat, with a lot of fish oil. Whenever I manage to stick to that STRICT for a few weeks I always think about how great I feel, but human nature, I slide out of it again.
Click to expand...


You may have a genetic disorder called pyroluria which mean your produce excess of specific enzyme that binds with zinc and b-6 and your can not produce over 200-300 enyzmatic reactions ..Look into it i bet you that may be your possible ticket to getting better since your genetics are predisposed to it. Ask dr to run a RBC EFAS PROFILE and I bet you either have acessive arachonsdonic acid or a deficiency. This is how I came about to finding out that I probably had it and nevr even knew it. There is also a simple urine test you can do as well to verify it, but stop all supplement of zinc and b-6, for 3 days prior. Taking fish oils well if you have a genetic component its only going to make you worse and you would never even suspect it. Get tested and find out if it is necessary because one can be doing more harm then good..
 
hardasnails1973 said:
You may have a genetic disorder called pyroluria which mean your produce excess of specific enzyme that binds with zinc and b-6 and your can not produce over 200-300 enyzmatic reactions ..Look into it i bet you that may be your possible ticket to getting better since your genetics are predisposed to it. Ask dr to run a RBC EFAS PROFILE and I bet you either have acessive arachonsdonic acid or a deficiency. This is how I came about to finding out that I probably had it and nevr even knew it. There is also a simple urine test you can do as well to verify it, but stop all supplement of zinc and b-6, for 3 days prior. Taking fish oils well if you have a genetic component its only going to make you worse and you would never even suspect it. Get tested and find out if it is necessary because one can be doing more harm then good..
Click to expand...

Interesting. Thanks.
 
GRIMNURUK said:
I just found this forum and signed up because of Dr. John. I am in the same boat as you and few other guys here, adrenal fatigue and the other issues. I hit ROCK bottom last year after almost 20 years of on and off again but steadily worsening fatigue, lethargy, myofascial pain and most of the rest of the list of symptoms for adrenal fatigue and low T. The anxiety attacks are what finally sent me to see DJ last year. Treatment is really helping me out. Though things aren't as good for me now as at the beginning of treatment (that initial rush), I'm a lot better than I had become. Cortisol made a day and night difference in a few hours for me, so you can see that my adrenals are really shot. This is from 20 some years of heavy labor, weight training (too hard, too often for too long) martial arts (too hard, too often...you get it) and what seems to me a genetic predisposition to burn out at age 30 (whole side of my family, when they reach 30, BAM, necks go, backs go all kinds of health problems kick in)

Even with treatment, I am still only able to work out (bodyweight, light weights and cables, light "shadow boxing" style striking, not all at once but a different combination each week) once a week. Sometimes I can also walk 2 or 3 times a week for 45minutes, but only for a few weeks at a time before I fatigue again. I've got lumbar and cervical issues (stenosis, herniated discs, arthritis and narrow spinal canal) as well and when I get fatigued the muscles in my neck spasm and I get nausea, headaches, disequilibrium, parasthesias down both arms, and other fun stuff. I really have to take it slow and careful. I monitor whether or not I've got that "clutching chest" feeling from anxiety, my overall muscle pain and trigger points, and disequilibrium, etc from neck, sciatica from lumbar and energy levels to determine workouts. I have to be really up on it because my natural disposition is to work out (hard/to failure) no matter how much pain I'm in, that's what got me where I am now, so I've got to train myself to make haste slowly and carefully.

Massage helps/has always helped me out GREATLY but who can afford it regularly?
My best diet results have always been cutting out all grains,
eating a lot of veggies and fruit and meat, with a lot of fish oil. Whenever I manage to stick to that STRICT for a few weeks I always think about how great I feel, but human nature, I slide out of it again.
Click to expand...

This is crazy....you just described my condition exactly. Have you had a cervical lamenectomy done?
 
fbcoach said:
This is crazy....you just described my condition exactly. Have you had a cervical lamenectomy done?
Click to expand...

Not yet. I have the "small bony spinal canal" multiple herniations and arthritis in the cervical region though. My dad had, I think, mulitiple level fusions there. I am holding out hope to somehow get the Jho technique when the time comes :Invalid Link Removed
My dad's cousin was lucky enough to get that and had great results. The way the paraspinals and other muscles spasm up around my neck seems like whiplash and that is what the chiro's said it was when it first started, except I wasn't in a wreck, fall or anything, my neck muscles just kept spasming harder and harder after my lumbar surgery and no amount of massage, chiro or muscle relaxers would provide more than very temporary, mild relief.
 
I had a cevical lamnectomy several years ago. Been to every pain management therapy you can think of....nothing helped, except the drugs, but Icould not function. Sucks....huh!!
 
hardasnails1973 said:
I have been identified as histamine intolerance which is directly linked to adrenal fatigue which was caused by contaminated food that was never treated properly. Look up scromboid poisoning and you will see all the lovely side effects that nearly killed me. Excessive histmaine from the bacterial from histidine decarbolxyation caused serotonin levels to drop, zinc and copper defiecinecy. So by trying to replace the zinc i was driving my copper into the ground as well as increasing more histmaine release. YES TOO MUCH ZINC CAN MAKE HISTMAINES and hence lower your cortisol levels. So lesson to be learned is check to see if you have hidden infections which could be causing your body to alter your histimine metaobilsm which ultimately will affect your adrenal.thyroid. and testosterone levels. Clinically go back to the source of the problem. If there was an underlying in fections look at your WBC count mine has been consistantly low this whole time which is pure indication of adrenal fatigue and copper imbalances. Getting stool sample, intestinal premeability test as well as small bacteria overgrowth. I have arachindic acid deficioency as well as omega 3 not DHA/EPA, but ALA and LA deficeincy so yes i am still doing the eggs now Friday I am going to allergies to check what foods I am allergic to help reduce the histmaine in my body. MY steps to complete recovery identify the pathgen reduce zinc intake up copper to 8:1 ratio no zinc over 30 mgs a day plus 3-4 mgs of copper. Since copper is needed for the enzyme DAO to metabolize histimines replenish it plus taking care of the source infection will bring body back into balance and thyroid /adrenals/ testosterone will kick back on. I beleive this is a much over looked and simple remdy exceptional for people that have higher estrogen levels because histmaines will interfer with methylation

Reason i know this is what is going on is that
1. My urine histamines are 6 times the highest level
2. organic acid test showed elevated hippruic acid which after 2 years i finally figured out that it was telling me I was dealing with excessive histmaines and amines which where directly lreated to the food born pathogen. i have ecoli and it was never treated and further researching it found it to release excessive histamines as well as all the other lovely critters down there.

Invalid Link Removed

As to question of high fat diets an inuslin resistance. I think my point was made

Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed

Invalid Link Removed
Click to expand...

I just looked at your old thread. Excessive histamine.
LEF think that Cimetidine is good.
Invalid Link Removed
Cimetidine is over the counter Tagamet.

One time they used it to fight flu.
 
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