Adrenal Fatigue, Thyroid, and Workout crashes

[Scottyo]

Ok, here is the situation. I have a couple of posts on here from before, Ill try to dig up lab work and paste it in a subsequent post.

Anyways, the gist of it is the following: I am 23, lean, and was in incredibly good shape until....in august my body entirely crashed. Endo put me on androgel in october or so, 1 packet a day. then after blood results showed that was too high (and still felt like ****) he put me on 1 packet EOD day.

Since then, Ive switched doctors and added/changed up my protocol.

I am on a compounded test gel, .6ml a day (50mg/ml I believe). Test seems to be fine, libido is ok etc.
On top of that I am on 100iu of hcg daily. Plus 50mg of pregnenolone, 25mg of dhea, l-carnitine, 100mg of coq10.

About 5 weeks ago, we started thyroid replacement stuff, after running Isocort for 4-5 weeks. started thyroid at 1/2 grain armour daily. As of last thursday, my bodytemp levels were still running around 97.5 so i had the doc bump the dose to 1 grain in the morning.

Both times I added the thyroid I initially felt VERY GOOD, although I was a little anxious. My cheeks are always a bit flushed as well, but overall feeling better.

My Question is the following: Ive taken probably 4-5 out of the last 6-7 weeks off from lifting weights entirely. Took 2 weeks off before the thyroid started, and have taken a lot of since then. Even wehn i lift, its very light and 2-3 times a week. But the days after I lift, or if I lift 1 day and cardio the next (light elipse-style), my body seems to really CRASH. My temp drops through the gutter, i feel like ****. headache today, etc.

Is this all related to the adrenal fatigue stuff? Is my body not getting the thyroid im supplementing with because of the adrenal fatigue issues..and how long of a 'rest' do i have to take before i can be even minimally active. I havent lifted intensely in probably 5 months.

 

[Scottyo]

Ive had some bloodwork since these tests. But this will give a background of where I am coming from. I also have other tests showing lower end to low thryoid levels, thus the armour thyroid medication.

Finally, I had a saliva hormonal panel done. (although not sure how accurate it is since i was on 4 pellets a day of isocort).

anyways, it showed my cortisol levels were next to nothing at AM and midday, the nightime cortisol test was compromised.

dhea was low to fine...25mg a day was to adjust that.
melatonin was normal although it was HIGH when I woke up 8-9 am, but not too high.
test on saliva testing was also very high, but doc thinks it was residue left from the gel. anyways, here's the old work:

8/26
LH: 1.6 (1.5-9.3)
FSH .5L (1.4-18.1)

Total Test 164 (241-827)
Free Test 5.2L (9.3-26.5)

Prolactin 9.7 (2.1-17.7)
Fasting Cortisol: 29.3 (4.3-22.3)

oct 16 (unsure of ref ranges)
LH 1.93
FSH 1.10
free T4 1.37
TSH 2.45
T3 78.
Total Test 268
Estradiol-17b <20
Cortisol (non-fasting) 17.9

10/27 LATEST WORK WITH ANDROGEL

T4 4.35 (5-12)
t3 64 (40-180)
FSH <.1 (.7-11.1)
LH .120 (.8-7.6)

Total Test 1442 (250-1100)
Free Test % 3.59 (1-2.8)
Free Test 517 (35-155.0)

 

[JanSz]

Ive had some bloodwork since these tests. But this will give a background of where I am coming from. I also have other tests showing lower end to low thryoid levels, thus the armour thyroid medication.

Finally, I had a saliva hormonal panel done. (although not sure how accurate it is since i was on 4 pellets a day of isocort).

anyways, it showed my cortisol levels were next to nothing at AM and midday, the nightime cortisol test was compromised.

dhea was low to fine...25mg a day was to adjust that.
melatonin was normal although it was HIGH when I woke up 8-9 am, but not too high.
test on saliva testing was also very high, but doc thinks it was residue left from the gel. anyways, here's the old work:

8/26
LH: 1.6 (1.5-9.3)
FSH .5L (1.4-18.1)

Total Test 164 (241-827)
Free Test 5.2L (9.3-26.5)

Prolactin 9.7 (2.1-17.7)
Fasting Cortisol: 29.3 (4.3-22.3)

oct 16 (unsure of ref ranges)
LH 1.93
FSH 1.10
free T4 1.37
TSH 2.45
T3 78.
Total Test 268
Estradiol-17b <20
Cortisol (non-fasting) 17.9

10/27 LATEST WORK WITH ANDROGEL

T4 4.35 (5-12)
t3 64 (40-180)
FSH <.1 (.7-11.1)
LH .120 (.8-7.6)

Total Test 1442 (250-1100)
Free Test % 3.59 (1-2.8)
Free Test 517 (35-155.0)

When suplementing aim for
TT=650
FreeT=160
E2=15
DHT=75
DHEAs=500
FreeT3=3.8
---------------------
Do not use FreeT assays, use calculated FreeT or calculate FreeT and BAT yourself using
TT, SHBG, Albumin from the same blood draw. Keep steady routine for at least a month before a blood draw.
Look here when looking for idea about what to test:
Invalid Link Removed

 

[hardasnails1973]

When suplementing aim for
TT=650
FreeT=160
E2=15
DHT=75
DHEAs=500
FreeT3=3.8
---------------------
Do not use FreeT assays, use calculated FreeT or calculate FreeT and BAT yourself using
TT, SHBG, Albumin from the same blood draw. Keep steady routine for at least a month before a blood draw.
Look here when looking for idea about what to test:
Invalid Link Removed

Estrodial essay ran was not that used for a male but rather a female. Male sensitive essay goe from 10-54 not less then <20 so there fore you may have hidden estrogen problems not knowing it which could be affecting your adrenal problems. even though you serum cortisol was in range what about your free levels ? Where they ever checked via salvia or 24 hour test..

 

[Scottyo]

as I mentioned earlier, the saliva testing of the cortisol showed them to be ENTIRELY bottomed out...as in not producing enough. however, im not sure how strongly this would have been affected by taking 4-6 isocort a day beforehand. i am now taking 8 a day, and still having what seems to be cortisol/thyroid issues.

i could care less about the testosterone right now, as that seems to be at least on track with the test gel and the hcg. the real quesiton is the cortisol (is it low, or is the supplemental screwing results...shoudl I stop it and see how thyroid works without it??)

Im starting to question whether starting the cortisol was the right thing in the first place. we thought it was, as i seemed to have all the symptoms of adrenal fatigue (but could it just have been hypothyroid??) I started the cortisol pre- armour thyroid, and pre-saliva testing.

pmgamer, if your around your advice appreciated as well.

S

 

[hardasnails1973]

as I mentioned earlier, the saliva testing of the cortisol showed them to be ENTIRELY bottomed out...as in not producing enough. however, im not sure how strongly this would have been affected by taking 4-6 isocort a day beforehand. i am now taking 8 a day, and still having what seems to be cortisol/thyroid issues.

i could care less about the testosterone right now, as that seems to be at least on track with the test gel and the hcg. the real quesiton is the cortisol (is it low, or is the supplemental screwing results...shoudl I stop it and see how thyroid works without it??)

Im starting to question whether starting the cortisol was the right thing in the first place. we thought it was, as i seemed to have all the symptoms of adrenal fatigue (but could it just have been hypothyroid??) I started the cortisol pre- armour thyroid, and pre-saliva testing.

pmgamer, if your around your advice appreciated as well.

S

If you could give us other indicators such as your cholesterol levels, alkaline phosphatase, WBC, then this could give a better indication if it was thyroid. From looking at your test results the T4 and t-3 levels are pretty close and that Possible the thyroid and adrenals need to be treated together instead of just the one then the other. Actually if you start treating the adrenals before the thyroid and its not the primary cause then if will cause thyroid to work much harder and actually lower it making you feel worse. Its up your primary Care physcian to possible add in a half grain of armour thyroid along with the isocort because you are getting hypothyroid symptoms because that the cortisol is basically chewing up the thyroid and your body is wanting more and its just not there. Again adrenal/thyroid go hand and hand Majority of the time to a certain degrees, but some times it could thyroid. But your E2 reading could possible be not giving you a real indication of how much estrogen is in your body and that with your test levels raised up like that you may be producing too much estrogen which could be affecting the thyroid and adrenals. So actually the main cause could elevated estrogen affecting both the thyroid and adrenals.

 

[Scottyo]

ok, here is some more bloodwork data:

cholesterol etc.:

August
Total: 127 (125-170)
triglyceride 27 (10-140)
HDL 43 (30-65)

Oct 13th
alkaline phosphate 61 (no range)
SGOT 60 (high)
SGPT 50 (high)
WBC 4.1 (I)
T3 78 (80-140)
Free T4 1.37
white blood cell 5.2 (3.6-10)

Update from Oct 27th
Cholesterol 157 (124-200)
Triglyceride 42 (44-150)
HDL 54 (40-60)

Most recent:
cant find the most recent but cholesterol was again low. the free t3 and t4, and reverse t3 etc. all showed to my doctor that the thyroid was underperfoming. So that is when he started me on the armour thyroid (first 1/2 grain, now 1 grain in the AM). Again, I was on isocort prior to that, and hae since upped the dose of isocort to 8 pills a day (3,2, 2, 1 dosing).

yesterday i took off from all phsyical activity. the day before i lifted but not too intensely. I woke up today after a restless night sleep and some major nocturia (sp?? multiple visits to the bathroom). the temp this morning was 96 something. I just feel like utter trash right now. Every time the thyroid dose was initially upped i felt good for a few days. Then I seem to do a moderate workout and i just crash...or am i crashing for other reasons?

 

[Scottyo]

If you could give us other indicators such as your cholesterol levels, alkaline phosphatase, WBC, then this could give a better indication if it was thyroid. From looking at your test results the T4 and t-3 levels are pretty close and that Possible the thyroid and adrenals need to be treated together instead of just the one then the other. Actually if you start treating the adrenals before the thyroid and its not the primary cause then if will cause thyroid to work much harder and actually lower it making you feel worse. Its up your primary Care physcian to possible add in a half grain of armour thyroid along with the isocort because you are getting hypothyroid symptoms because that the cortisol is basically chewing up the thyroid and your body is wanting more and its just not there. Again adrenal/thyroid go hand and hand Majority of the time to a certain degrees, but some times it could thyroid. But your E2 reading could possible be not giving you a real indication of how much estrogen is in your body and that with your test levels raised up like that you may be producing too much estrogen which could be affecting the thyroid and adrenals. So actually the main cause could elevated estrogen affecting both the thyroid and adrenals.

I think you got something backwards here. You said that if you start treating adrenals before the thyroid you can be making it worse. I have heard it is the OPPOSITE. If you dont have the cortisol then the thyroid medication won't get to where its going .

thats what stopthethyroidmadness suggests:

ince cortisol, a corticosteroid hormone, helps cell receptors receive thyroid hormones from the blood to the cells, low cortisol can result in high amounts of thyroid hormones to build in the blood, making your free T3 and/or free T4 labs look high in range with continuing hypo symptoms, or causing hyper-like symptoms on doses of Armour which shouldn’t produce those symptoms.

 

[hardasnails1973]

I think you got something backwards here. You said that if you start treating adrenals before the thyroid you can be making it worse. I have heard it is the OPPOSITE. If you dont have the cortisol then the thyroid medication won't get to where its going .

thats what stopthethyroidmadness suggests:

ince cortisol, a corticosteroid hormone, helps cell receptors receive thyroid hormones from the blood to the cells, low cortisol can result in high amounts of thyroid hormones to build in the blood, making your free T3 and/or free T4 labs look high in range with continuing hypo symptoms, or causing hyper-like symptoms on doses of Armour which shouldn’t produce those symptoms.[/QUOTE

Number one thing the low cholestreol, tricglyceridess, low normal WBC, reading would be an indicator of low adrenal out put, if your triglycerides, cholesterol was higher then it would more likely be thyroid. Ok as progrrmer has mentioned people with adrenal fatigue some times do not respond to the isocort and may need Cortef to make the difference. This is something that you may need to discuss with your Dr. Obviously the cholesterol is going up so you are headed in right direction. Also too your cholesterol being low you can not make any hormones such as cortisol, testosterone,dhea, so that could explain part of your hormone imbalance. It looks like you are getting a build up of fats, cholesterol in your liver. If your cholesterol is low in the blood it may be high in the liver same goes for triglcyerides. Insulin drives synthesis of cholesterol and triglcerides so you may want to look at possible inuslin dyfunctions.

Was your Rt3 elevated? If your rt3 is elevated first place you need to focus on is the liver becuse that is where 80% of the conversion takes place. I think you may have gone high cortisol at first which increased the RT3 (if they are increased) If order for conversion to take place you need magnesium, copper, zinc, coenzyme q10, all b vitamins,selenium. If your liver is congested your are probably an undermethyator and could explain why fats possible being stored vs being burned. Have you had homocystein taking, I bet it is probably on the low end and that your pathways are being diverted to alternative pathways because your body is trying to detoxify something in you and not recylced back to the Sam-e. You may want to try samm-e at 200 mgs for a few days with 500 mgs BID of TMG and see how you feel. Have you had your b-12 and folic acid levels checked? if they are elvated then this could be indication of liver dyfunction. With this said if you practicioner is open minded you may want to look at liver detoxification challege test to see what pathways are no functioining.

This is just a conservative approach
For now you might try to help release the fats from the liver
sam-e 200 mgs with 500 MG TMG BID for a few days and see how you feel
Choline/inositol 500 mgs 2 times a day
Biotin 5 mgs BID
b-5 500 mgs BID
200 mgs milk thislte (80%) BID

Are you taking any other medication other then hormone replacement such as antidepressants, ect. Do you take alot of advill, or tylenoil, caffine? Have you been checked for food allergy, leaky gut, dybiosis. Ok your estrodial was never even checked when you did your last testosterone test and the added estrogen could be over loaded your adrenals/ thyroid and like my self isocort in this instance was not strong enough, So address the estrogen imbalnace alonf with adrenal/thyroid needs to also be looked into.

 

[Scottyo]

thanks for the info.

I had talked to trouble on IA and M&M before she up and dissapeared (had promised to 'work with me').
I have been on SAM-e 400mg AM for about 4 months now. Also take 500mg TMG 2x a day. I have been on a lot of B vitamins. Take p-5-p 50m a day. plus have some supps that have a bit more of it. The old endocrinologist i had did check b12 levels, and they were VERY high...although I had just taken a b vitamin supplement 45 minutes prior. as mentioned earlier, I am on 200mcg of selenium, and 100mg of coq10 ED.

Dysbiosis...yes. Am taking a very potent (ultraflora) probiotic. not cheap but supposedly better than primal defense ultra. I am also on an anti-fungal (nystatin) for candida. Ive gone gluten free as some have claimed that could be one of the roots of the problem, but have not been able ot go dairy free. its just too much a part of my diet.

 

[hardasnails1973]

thanks for the info.

I had talked to trouble on IA and M&M before she up and dissapeared (had promised to 'work with me').
I have been on SAM-e 400mg AM for about 4 months now. Also take 500mg TMG 2x a day. I have been on a lot of B vitamins. Take p-5-p 50m a day. plus have some supps that have a bit more of it. The old endocrinologist i had did check b12 levels, and they were VERY high...although I had just taken a b vitamin supplement 45 minutes prior. as mentioned earlier, I am on 200mcg of selenium, and 100mg of coq10 ED.

Dysbiosis...yes. Am taking a very potent (ultraflora) probiotic. not cheap but supposedly better than primal defense ultra. I am also on an anti-fungal (nystatin) for candida. Ive gone gluten free as some have claimed that could be one of the roots of the problem, but have not been able ot go dairy free. its just too much a part of my diet.

Alot of allergies stem from diary as main culpritam probably one of the few that understand troubles logic and basically we have the same scenerio. If b-12 and folic acid are high then you are not methlyating the B-12 and folic acid to methylcobalonin and folonic acid and using the TMG will just help detoxify the homocystene and bring it back around to methione, but your b-12/folate aKA the 5 mtffr enyzme is lacking and this could be due to possible. You may have had genetic predisposition and if we would probe your child hood there may be an instanice of great trama that may have triggered the gene splicing as she calls it and it will impact you later down the road. Most of her research stems from extensive research. To find out a resolution to your problem look up autism and you will further undertand.

To over come the b-12 and folic acid conversion
you need to over ride the malfunctioning enyzme. Enyzme gets altered in infection, aids, cancer, DIABETES
folinic acid
methylcobalin

In my expereince you are experiencing a build of bile acids, fats in your liver due to there is a defect in your insulin productioin. The caustic bile acids are recirculating back through the liver causing cosntant build up. i went to Dr patricia Kane and she is world leading expert on lipids and fats. Her basic concept is liver trouble "burn the bad fats and replenish with the good fats" but trouble told me over time the fats would recycle and eventually balance them selves out in the cell membrane. Also to you probably have excess lipi periodation going on with in the cells which is causing incredible oxidative stress and ROS which is agravating the situation. If insulin is not producing properly your proteins start cross- linking and you start to experince symptoms as diabetic would. MY advice for you get a glucose tolerance test to see how reactive you really are when a sugar is added to your system. By healing the liver if you have leaky gut it will also be addressed from increase of gluthione. Read my thread and you will see

Scotty follow my post and alot of your questions you have will be answered..

Invalid Link Removed

If I knew the possiblity of possible key to my getting better was to remove milk products I would do it. At this point you should be willing to do what ever it takes to get better NO EXCUSES !!

 

[Scottyo]

alright. i am now going to do a trial of no milk/dairy products. does that mean no protein isolates as well i imagine?

Secondly, I completely agree with the bile acid thing...although on my CDSA it says that I am at least producing and digesting the right amounts of these....and I did do a homeopathic gall bladder flush awhile ago and it really helped. pretty much eliminated my GERD and indigestion altogether., I seem also to be over the constipation hump, although now it seems to be very loose and i get the d a lot. But im not entirely sure if that is all from the sea salt in my water in the AM, the heavy salt i use on foods for adrenal stuff, or the psylium and/or mag citrate (i know that the mag will make it this way on its own).

Anyways, even if this all is related at its core to the previously discussed things....why is it that the armour thryoid im taking is not raising my temp?

I NOTICED you CUT out fish oil. I take A LOT of fish oil and have for a long time. I used to use sesamin as well but cut that out about 6 montsh ago.

 

[hardasnails1973]

alright. i am now going to do a trial of no milk/dairy products. does that mean no protein isolates as well i imagine?

Secondly, I completely agree with the bile acid thing...although on my CDSA it says that I am at least producing and digesting the right amounts of these....and I did do a homeopathic gall bladder flush awhile ago and it really helped. pretty much eliminated my GERD and indigestion altogether., I seem also to be over the constipation hump, although now it seems to be very loose and i get the d a lot. But im not entirely sure if that is all from the sea salt in my water in the AM, the heavy salt i use on foods for adrenal stuff, or the psylium and/or mag citrate (i know that the mag will make it this way on its own).

Anyways, even if this all is related at its core to the previously discussed things....why is it that the armour thryoid im taking is not raising my temp?

I NOTICED you CUT out fish oil. I take A LOT of fish oil and have for a long time. I used to use sesamin as well but cut that out about 6 montsh ago.

When ever you have irritation of the intestineal wall your absorption of some minerals are affected, but other may not be. If my hunch is right you may be low on ferritin which is also used to make the thyroid usable at the cellular level. So iron insufficency due to malabsorption of iron may not by the intestinal wall but if diary is part of your diet excessive phytates or calcium creates soaps in the intestinal track that can bind iron from food and cause it to become biounvailable excreted out. This can also happen to magesium, zinc and other minerals that calcium competes. Excessive calcium:magnesium ratio causes acidosis which will interfer with insulin production, and other hormonal imbalnaces .
What types of fiber you eat and how many veggie do you consume a day and ground flaxseeds, nuts, grains ?

using the mag citrate she is feed ing your kreb cycle with the citrate to form citric acid
You may also want to add 1 TBSP oragnic Apple cide vinegae before 3 meals to help feed the acetic acid pathway as well.
i also noticed you do not have zinc which is essential for fat and insulin metabolism
50 mgs balanced wioth 2 mgs copper is fine, BUT in your case you may want to get copper levels check to be sure they are not low because people with adrenal problems tedn to accumate copper because cortisolis need to attach the copper from the liver on to the protein chaperone ceruoplasm so it can be transported in the blood stream. So people with several low adrenals like MOI have low normal copper and ceruoplasm levels, but i still trying to identify if it is a copper absorption problem or a copper over load. i think its copper over load because my bile an albumin was off the charts which indicates dehydration as well as your body trying to detoxify a toxin such as copper and or estrogen since copper /estrogen use the same pathway for detoxifcaiton.

Adding in 500 mgs inositol, 100 mgs b2, biotin, 100 mcgs molydneium will help burn fats in your liver and actually 10 -15 mgs of biotin can help stimulate inuslin production. Your arachondonic acid is probably low because low arachadonic acid is common in type 2 diabetes whicjh is all mention in my thread at ironmagazine

 

[Scottyo]

One last question for you HAN. how are you able to work out at all? For me, it seems like my body just utterly crashes after working out. the nexst couple days i feel like ****. and i am not even working out hard at all.

 

[Scottyo]

When ever you have irritation of the intestineal wall your absorption of some minerals are affected, but other may not be. If my hunch is right you may be low on ferritin which is also used to make the thyroid usable at the cellular level. So iron insufficency due to malabsorption of iron may not by the intestinal wall but if diary is part of your diet excessive phytates or calcium creates soaps in the intestinal track that can bind iron from food and cause it to become biounvailable excreted out. This can also happen to magesium, zinc and other minerals that calcium competes. Excessive calcium:magnesium ratio causes acidosis which will interfer with insulin production, and other hormonal imbalnaces .
What types of fiber you eat and how many veggie do you consume a day and ground flaxseeds, nuts, grains ?

using the mag citrate she is feed ing your kreb cycle with the citrate to form citric acid
You may also want to add 1 TBSP oragnic Apple cide vinegae before 3 meals to help feed the acetic acid pathway as well.
i also noticed you do not have zinc which is essential for fat and insulin metabolism
50 mgs balanced wioth 2 mgs copper is fine, BUT in your case you may want to get copper levels check to be sure they are not low because people with adrenal problems tedn to accumate copper because cortisolis need to attach the copper from the liver on to the protein chaperone ceruoplasm so it can be transported in the blood stream. So people with several low adrenals like MOI have low normal copper and ceruoplasm levels, but i still trying to identify if it is a copper absorption problem or a copper over load. i think its copper over load because my bile an albumin was off the charts which indicates dehydration as well as your body trying to detoxify a toxin such as copper and or estrogen since copper /estrogen use the same pathway for detoxifcaiton.

Adding in 500 mgs inositol, 100 mgs b2, biotin, 100 mcgs molydneium will help burn fats in your liver and actually 10 -15 mgs of biotin can help stimulate inuslin production. Your arachondonic acid is probably low because low arachadonic acid is common in type 2 diabetes whicjh is all mention in my thread at ironmagazine

I had ferritin levels checked by the doc. He said they were ok, but i never got a hard copy of that lab test. It was the 'old bad endo' so im not sure how accurate it was, but he did say my b12 levels were high and never mentioned the ferritin, which he thought might have been the culprit all along.

Ive tried the apple cider vinegar and it seems to give me heartburn (still) occasionally. also stomach upset.

Ill try to pick up some biotin. My AA levels used to be ExTERMELy high because I was eating a lot of chicken hearts, and as a result my body was getting even more sore than usual from the lightest of workouts. I cut that out because i thought it was too pro-inflamatory.

What is your take on taking cortisol (isocort or cortef) while on the thyroid to help it along. And have you been able to normalize your body yet? I read most of your long post, a lot was over my head (not my specialty at all), but im not sure how much longer i can keep up this high of a supplement routine. especially since i cant work out at all right now. my strength has no improved 1 iota. when i try to have a 1/2 cup of oatmeal my blood sugar seems to flop all over the place also.

 

[hardasnails1973]

alright. i am now going to do a trial of no milk/dairy products. does that mean no protein isolates as well i imagine?

Secondly, I completely agree with the bile acid thing...although on my CDSA it says that I am at least producing and digesting the right amounts of these....and I did do a homeopathic gall bladder flush awhile ago and it really helped. pretty much eliminated my GERD and indigestion altogether., I seem also to be over the constipation hump, although now it seems to be very loose and i get the d a lot. But im not entirely sure if that is all from the sea salt in my water in the AM, the heavy salt i use on foods for adrenal stuff, or the psylium and/or mag citrate (i know that the mag will make it this way on its own).

Anyways, even if this all is related at its core to the previously discussed things....why is it that the armour thryoid im taking is not raising my temp?

I NOTICED you CUT out fish oil. I take A LOT of fish oil and have for a long time. I used to use sesamin as well but cut that out about 6 montsh ago.

Well that explains it right there. Excessive fish oil will reduce arachonic acid that is essential for insulin secretion, adrenal secretion, testosterone
So if Fish oil lower triglyceride and cholesterol, cortisol wouldn't that make sense and that excess fat of anything if it can noe be utlized will cause congestion of the liver

Normal DHA/EPA: arachondonic acid should be like 2:1
right now if you have intracellular EFA blood testing I bet it would be severely skewed more like 10-15:1. You my freind have self induced fatty liver due to creating the imbalnaces with the fish oils. over time it built up.

Bascailly you created an imbalnace of 3:6 and did same thing I did, low insulin production, low triglceride, low cholesterol, low WBC,

FISH OILS ARE IMMUNE SUPPRESSIVE !!

Do you eat liver, beef, egg yoiks, butter
Do you take alot of EFAS, fish oils, ect

Excessive fats PEROID fish oil, butter, what ever can do the same damage as taking bad fats if taken in excess. if your dr is good have them do a EFA fatty acid profile and you will most likely get your answer to the source of your problem !!

LIVER CONGESTION FROM TOO MUCH FISH OILS AND CREATING TO MANY RENEGADE FATS AKA VLCFA ..

 

[hardasnails1973]

I had ferritin levels checked by the doc. He said they were ok, but i never got a hard copy of that lab test. It was the 'old bad endo' so im not sure how accurate it was, but he did say my b12 levels were high and never mentioned the ferritin, which he thought might have been the culprit all along.

Ive tried the apple cider vinegar and it seems to give me heartburn (still) occasionally. also stomach upset.

Ill try to pick up some biotin. My AA levels used to be ExTERMELy high because I was eating a lot of chicken hearts, and as a result my body was getting even more sore than usual from the lightest of workouts. I cut that out because i thought it was too pro-inflamatory.

What is your take on taking cortisol (isocort or cortef) while on the thyroid to help it along. And have you been able to normalize your body yet? I read most of your long post, a lot was over my head (not my specialty at all), but im not sure how much longer i can keep up this high of a supplement routine. especially since i cant work out at all right now. my strength has no improved 1 iota. when i try to have a 1/2 cup of oatmeal my blood sugar seems to flop all over the place also.

REmeber by removing the source of the problem chicken hearts then over a short amount of time your body was going to restabilized. So by you removing the source of the problem and taking excessive fish oil for extended amount of time you switched it the other way. Now that your are experiencing symptoms and having direct and indirect of excessive fat in your cells you may want to look at the ratio NOW of AA:EPA to see if it swung the other way. Before playing with cortisol look to see if your ratios of EFA stabilized mainly the EPA:AA ratio and that may give a more clearer pics of what step may be. This principle happens alot you go from 2 extremes and never know when a balance is acheived and pendulum is swung other way

 

[hardasnails1973]

One last question for you HAN. how are you able to work out at all? For me, it seems like my body just utterly crashes after working out. the nexst couple days i feel like ****. and i am not even working out hard at all.

It had to be my own dr because drs just wanted to stick me on paxil. I am right now have elevated RT3 which are indicator that my liver is underactive, and something is bogging it down. With troubles helped I learn more then what most drs would not be even open minded to. It took me over 2 years to fully understand the liver pathways and how they interact and how toxins affect them. My gut instinct is telling me since your diary is excessive in your diet that i do not know for how long that you mya have possible developed a lactose intiolerance to it and this may be the primary cause of your adrenal fatigue and may be why you are not recovering because your body is being exposed to a toxins and all its energy is being diverted to dealing with the tioxins and not left for other functioins. I bet if you got a urine histamine and glutamate test that your glutamate and histamine would be off the charts for the fact with food allergies have trouble with histamine metabolism and if you have problem with histamine metabolism your going to have problem with estrogen metabolism because it uses the same primarry pathway methylations.

Source of your problem is over burden liver and low gluthione production possible being suched out by a hidden allergic reaction or excessive estrogen which is over taxing your adrenals and thyroid creating your endocrine imbalances.

1.Remove all allegerians from diet, rice, corn, milk whey protein as well
2. use digestive enyzme to ease stres on pancrease
3 enjoy food and be in a non stress ful enviroment
4. Eat balanced meals and lay off the fish oils for a bit and eat salmon 2 times a week
5. Evening primose oil 1500 mgs 2 times a day
6. what trouble suggested
7. Egg raw egglands egg in protein shakes (this will not affect your AA levels at all because they are 0meaga 3 not 0mega 6
8. biotin/ panthetic acid/ inositol/ choline will help to burn fats out and over time the liver will recycle.

follow what trouble already mentioned
RT3 are a dead give away that your liver is main source of your problem which is coming from fat malabsorption because your triglycerides are so stinking low. So if you not absorbing fat your losing precious caloires which could explain the RT3 which basically means your body is in starvation mood. Its a built in protective mechanism to prevent the body from eating it self up. Adding armoure to elevated reverse t-3 is only going to cause more thyroid resistance and hypothyroid symptoms

How are your sleep patterns ?
How much sun you getting a day have you had vitaminD levels checked it is wintertime you know !! look up the polar syndrome and low t-3.

Look into
1.amino acid urinalsysis from great plains covered by insurance throug medical dr
2. neurotransmitter testing - low 5 hiaa, low gabba, elevated histamines, glutmate would be probable result
3. ESTRODIAL TESTING as well as urine testing th good:BAD RATIO of estrogen find out if you problem metabolizing estogen properly because it could be recirculate back in the body but not in the form of estrodial, but another which would block the receptors (explaining your low free cortisol and test levels from the begninng as well as, RT3.

Your problem is mainly focused at the cell receptor level where estrogen causes majority of the problems .

 

[hardasnails1973]

Everything should be taken in moderation, including moderation itself

AMEN !!

 

[Scottyo]

Sleep patterns suck. Ill sleep good if im just exhausted physically and mentally. I often use melatonin or ambien.

Ill cut dairy, but rice too? What the hell am I going to eat. Seriously....going gluten free was managable. Ive kept the oats and dairy up to this point. My CDSA showed NO INFLAMATION in the bowels. The doc wanted me on a good amount of EFA's so I had been taking 2tsps of carlson's fish oil and 2 tsps of carlson's cod liver oil. My Vitamin D levels are in th dumps. VERY LOW. but not much sun in NYC or in northern michigan. The cod liver oil has 100% of vite d. plus my cal/mag citrate has 100% as well.

 

[hardasnails1973]

Sleep patterns suck. Ill sleep good if im just exhausted physically and mentally. I often use melatonin or ambien.

Ill cut dairy, but rice too? What the hell am I going to eat. Seriously....going gluten free was managable. Ive kept the oats and dairy up to this point. My CDSA showed NO INFLAMATION in the bowels. The doc wanted me on a good amount of EFA's so I had been taking 2tsps of carlson's fish oil and 2 tsps of carlson's cod liver oil. My Vitamin D levels are in th dumps. VERY LOW. but not much sun in NYC or in northern michigan. The cod liver oil has 100% of vite d. plus my cal/mag citrate has 100% as well.

Well vitamin D is needed for activate a specific enzyme for adrenal function and by you not getting proper sun light you are creating melaotonin/ serotnin imbalance which is primary source of your sleep problem I guarranteed it. The proper test for vitamin D is not the 1,25 but rather this one. oh and by the way if you have fat malabsorption problems (which is pretty much evident) your not absorbing coenyzme q 10 because you need bile production to process it. Your bile acides are not being released from the liver and causing low bile production and possible fat malabsorption, So in order to first absorb fat it needs too be binded to bile which you are lacking so taking digestive enyzmes with out oxbile is not going to help your case and the plant enzyme only cover once bile has been into the mix and the fats encapsulated so they can attach to the fat transporting agents. Basically your fat is not being wrapped, but its being delivered and then rejected LOL. REmoving the possible allergen your sleep patterns should stabilize and your vitamin D levels are low and are orbably sill going to be low because you can not absorb fat vitamins due to lack of bile acids, but if Biotics makes a prodcut already emulsifed form so the work is already done for you. Taking those fish oils is boggin down liver and also not helping vitamin d because you can not metabolism it from it. Check out biotic resarch and emulsifed to get the proper blood test for vitamin D so you can have a starting marker

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Since you are taking DHEA that may be causing too much conversion to estrogen which was not even properly tested with male essay. The one that was done was for a female and is totally invalid. I would add some DIM in but not before having proper estrodial testing done.

HELLO MC FLY !! you told me diary makes up a majority of your diet ok CALCIUM BINDS WITH THYROID MEDIOCINE .
When are you taking it and what are you eating right after it ? BE SPECIFIC !!
If you like dairy look into making your own kefir use half cocconut milk (non processed ) with almond milk). That will kill anything in your digestive track, But anything with calcium avoid 2-4 hours from thyroid pill PERIOD !!

ARE YOU TAKING ANYTHING IN ARGINE LIKE NO2 products STOP IT IF YOU ARE...

Be curious if stoping milk products will help releive your fatigue ?

 

[Kanecore]

I have elevated total Es but normal E2. I have BPH too. I have extremely high DHT. My am cortisol taken at 10:30 was 10.7 (ref - 4.0 - 22.0) and DHEA Sulfate was 312 (ref 110-370). Total T = 736 (ref 250-1100), Free T = 183 (ref 46-224), Bioavailable T = 377 (ref 110-575), SHBG 16 (ref 5-49), Albumin 4.5 (ref 3.7-5.1) My T3 and T4 was normal but I don't have the results.

I consistently get constipated especially the day after taking R-alph lipoic acid. I am very bloated despite normal E2. I take digestive enzymes and guar gum fiber and just started taking Fish Oil tabs at 10,000mg a day. I smoke organic cigarrettes (stupid). My hair is thin but the dermatologist said I do not have male pattern baldness. No libido either and very long refactory period. Prolactin was normal range. Gaining weight by the day and don't know why. I eat dairy and lots of coffee. Any thoughts?

 

[hardasnails1973]

I have elevated total Es but normal E2. I have BPH too. I have extremely high DHT. My am cortisol taken at 10:30 was 10.7 (ref - 4.0 - 22.0) and DHEA Sulfate was 312 (ref 110-370). Total T = 736 (ref 250-1100), Free T = 183 (ref 46-224), Bioavailable T = 377 (ref 110-575), SHBG 16 (ref 5-49), Albumin 4.5 (ref 3.7-5.1) My T3 and T4 was normal but I don't have the results.

I consistently get constipated especially the day after taking R-alph lipoic acid. I am very bloated despite normal E2. I take digestive enzymes and guar gum fiber and just started taking Fish Oil tabs at 10,000mg a day. I smoke organic cigarrettes (stupid). My hair is thin but the dermatologist said I do not have male pattern baldness. No libido either and very long refactory period. Prolactin was normal range. Gaining weight by the day and don't know why. I eat dairy and lots of coffee. Any thoughts?

Caffine is increasing estrogen levels there has not been a study but only antedoal eveidence so that may explain your elevated total estrogens..It says it elevated estrogen NOT ESTRODIAL. SO in your case try adding DIM as progrmmer suggests and it should help ease the stress off the liver and aid in ESTROGEN metabolism not estrodial.
Since balancing my estrogen metabolism through increasing methylation of the liver via Folonic acid, methycoblalin, TMG, NAC, P5P my hair is full and get black its been best its been in 5 years and my sleep paterns normalized, digestion is retuning to normal, and anxiety HAHAHA thing of the past. I did more by balancing my liver then any antidepressant would have done in a million years. I tried paxil but if you are unmerhylated it probably will not work with out addition on folonic acid 6-10 mgs. Any who the RDA up folic acid to 4000 mcgs a day but over 50% of population lacks the ability to properly convert. Like I mentioned before if you are missing just ONE of the neceesary nutrients then you get bottled neck and in severe trouble. If you take r ala you need to balance it with biotin other wise over time you can jam up your mitocondrion pathways then you be really screwed. As for smoking cigareetes they contain toxins which are going to put a hamper of thyroid metabolism which is then going to affect adrenalss and then estrogen metabolism will be altered and so the vicious cycle begins. Consitpation is most likely from your bodys ability to digest fats, Add super digestive enzyme by now in there one with each meal and that should help the problem.. A bet you your homocysteine levels are elevated which could be affecting you libido.

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hope this helps

 

[Scottyo]

I had the 25 hydroxy test done, and it came out ridiculously low.

But even during that time I had been taking the vitamin d via cod liver oil. So what do i do if i cant digest it. I looked for that emulsfied d and its out of stock.

Two big questions: My bile acids showed up normal in my cdsa. I know they were way out of wack earlier but could they be normalized and it just slowly recovering now or did the cdsa just give some false sense of normalcy.

second q: What is your take on supplemental cortisol (isocort), and linked to this question....how are you still able to work out?

 

[hardasnails1973]

I had the 25 hydroxy test done, and it came out ridiculously low.

But even during that time I had been taking the vitamin d via cod liver oil. So what do i do if i cant digest it. I looked for that emulsfied d and its out of stock.

Two big questions: My bile acids showed up normal in my cdsa. I know they were way out of wack earlier but could they be normalized and it just slowly recovering now or did the cdsa just give some false sense of normalcy.

second q: What is your take on supplemental cortisol (isocort), and linked to this question....how are you still able to work out?

By rebalancing my liver through evasive testing which I did on my own and my chiropractor ordered them i was able to see where the imbalances where and then find out even further detail that even most naturopathetic drs where baffled on. thats why Trouble and I had such good conversations, she provided the catylst and wanted me to do the research which obviously you saw I did from the responses in my thread. i basically did what trouble suggested and then went further in to even more detail. The biggest test was organic acids and the amino acid urine test which should indirectly what pathways were altered. MY blood serum b-12 and folic acid were off the char, but they were not getting converted by the liver and there for i was having a nervous system deficeincy of both resulting in nerological depression. My depression is a thing of the past. I practice life stryle adaptions and stress reduction ever night before bed time. it was combination of a few things that in the end i finally hit the right combination. MY thyroid is still screwed and i am trating adrenals with HC 10 mgs a day and 5 mgs iscort plus taking 25 mcgs t-3 daily beacuase of the elvated t-3. i took armour with cortisol and it just pushed rt3 up even further so that was not the answer for me.. Time and persistancy paid off if your 1,25 od is low then either vitamin D was low or you have magnesium deficeincy which activates vitamin D to 1,25 also low 1,25 levels can also indicate kidney dyfunction. To verify that check the creatanine urine clearance test 24 hours and if this is low then your are vitamin E defieincy probably from abusing the fish oil which causes depletion of vitamin E co enyzme q10. Bile acids are probably binding in the liver and not in your bowel.

 

[Kanecore]

Thanks. I just started on TMG and Indole 3-carbinole w/ DIM two days ago. I'll definately impliment your reccommendations. I am making an appointment with a Integrative Doctor to check for candida, leaky gut, parasites, heavy mental toxicity, vitamins and amino acids. Where can I get my hand on Folonic acid, methycoblalin, NAC and P5P? Also, what is P5P?

 

[Scottyo]

could you post your nighttime stress routine. also, with the HC 10mg and some isocort, are you able to work out normally and make progress etc? even with full isocort dosing, i seem to really crash the following 2 days following exercise. its like i used up any cortisol i had in me while working out.

 

[hardasnails1973]

could you post your nighttime stress routine. also, with the HC 10mg and some isocort, are you able to work out normally and make progress etc? even with full isocort dosing, i seem to really crash the following 2 days following exercise. its like i used up any cortisol i had in me while working out.

Methylcobaloniin 5000mcgs with help reset your circaden rthyme

8 oclock off computers
settle down for the night last meal about 8 oclock
10 pm ZMA, gabbam glycine, trytophan, probioitics before bed time,
after taking vitamins relaxation tape for 20 minutes
remove all elctric device 10 ft from my bed including cellphone alarm clock. If you sleep near a computer completely shut it off and log off and turn off power. The reason isocort was not working for me like it was in the begining is going back due tot the alter estrogen metabolism. Adding the HC was need to compensate for the elevated estrogen due to applying the creme same spot as well as dropping estrogen blocker to get baseline reading..

 

[fbcoach]

could you post your nighttime stress routine. also, with the HC 10mg and some isocort, are you able to work out normally and make progress etc? even with full isocort dosing, i seem to really crash the following 2 days following exercise. its like i used up any cortisol i had in me while working out.

Scottyo,
Your situation sounds very similar to mine. In the spring of 92' at the age of 33, a fatigue came over me almost overnight. I had been following Dr. Dipasquale's Anabolic diet for about 2 years. All of a sudden, after a workout, it would take me days to recover. In the meantime, I would be totally exhausted with pain in my neck, back, and shoulders. Also, I my nose would become stuffy after eating. After a full year or so going to Drs., they diagnosed me with stenosis of the cervical spine, and did a lamenectomy from C-2 to C-6. I have had chronic pain and fatigue ever since. It seems that working out contributes to a lot of my fatigue, but working out has been a big part of my life since age 11. In order to work out and progress, I work up to 1x5 on benches and 1x10 on chest press machine on Mondays and on Thursdays 1x5 deadlifts and 1x10 on lat pulls. Ocassionally I will add an arm exercise, but this routine has allowed me to continue to workout.

The reason I am posting is to let you know that I will be doing a one day roundtrip flight on Fri. Feb. 9 to visit Dr. Crisler. I have been battling this fatigue for 15 years and it has increased this past year. I had bloodwork that revealed low test, but I thought I would go to the best if I was going to get it taken care of. Since we seem to have a lot of the same symptoms, I will be more than happy to share what I learn. Good luck to you, and I feel your pain bro....literally

 

[hardasnails1973]

Scottyo,
Your situation sounds very similar to mine. In the spring of 92' at the age of 33, a fatigue came over me almost overnight. I had been following Dr. Dipasquale's Anabolic diet for about 2 years. All of a sudden, after a workout, it would take me days to recover. In the meantime, I would be totally exhausted with pain in my neck, back, and shoulders. Also, I my nose would become stuffy after eating. After a full year or so going to Drs., they diagnosed me with stenosis of the cervical spine, and did a lamenectomy from C-2 to C-6. I have had chronic pain and fatigue ever since. It seems that working out contributes to a lot of my fatigue, but working out has been a big part of my life since age 11. In order to work out and progress, I work up to 1x5 on benches and 1x10 on chest press machine on Mondays and on Thursdays 1x5 deadlifts and 1x10 on lat pulls. Ocassionally I will add an arm exercise, but this routine has allowed me to continue to workout.

Low testosterone and endocrinological problems are more likely a symptoms not the cause, but balancing them will help the body to restabilize, but the cause mainly from some kind of stress (enviormental, phyisiologica, chemical, nutritional) induced illness or an illnes that may be the cause of the stress.

The reason I am posting is to let you know that I will be doing a one day roundtrip flight on Fri. Feb. 9 to visit Dr. Crisler. I have been battling this fatigue for 15 years and it has increased this past year. I had bloodwork that revealed low test, but I thought I would go to the best if I was going to get it taken care of. Since we seem to have a lot of the same symptoms, I will be more than happy to share what I learn. Good luck to you, and I feel your pain bro....literally

I had horrible pain as well despite taking cortisol. Application of the testocreme in repeated areas and forearms constantly was elevated my estrogen levels and having horrible shoulder pain and joint pains. Since making lsight modifications with TMG. DIM and alteranting the application and not applying it same spot and avoiding forearms my joiny pains compeltely went away as well as sleeop patterns normalize, but proper detoxification of the liver getting it balances properly was the major player.

Look up cerefolin and that has everything in there nac, folnic acid, methyl b-12,
P5P is converted form of b-6 people with altered livers can no coenzyme b- complex by phosphoralation and despite taking b complex out the gazzo there are just building up and not being bioavailavble to the body

 

[Scottyo]

Methylcobaloniin 5000mcgs with help reset your circaden rthyme

8 oclock off computers
settle down for the night last meal about 8 oclock
10 pm ZMA, gabbam glycine, trytophan, probioitics before bed time,
after taking vitamins relaxation tape for 20 minutes
remove all elctric device 10 ft from my bed including cellphone alarm clock. If you sleep near a computer completely shut it off and log off and turn off power. The reason isocort was not working for me like it was in the begining is going back due tot the alter estrogen metabolism. Adding the HC was need to compensate for the elevated estrogen due to applying the creme same spot as well as dropping estrogen blocker to get baseline reading..

you lost me at the tail end of this post. were you on an estrogen blocker and then stopped? and was the HC in a cream or are you taking cortef. pretty much unsure of what your getting at in last 2 sentences.

fbcoach...best of luck. im still waiting for Dr. Crisler to chime in on this adrenal fatigue issue more.

 

[pmgamer18]

Hi Scottyo,

Sorry you having so much trouble getting it together. First I feel you are Secondary you need to have an MRI on your Pituitary Gland to see if you have a tumor. Don’t get upset over this it's no a life and death thing. Your LH and FSH are way to low with low T. And you did not say if the cortisol tests you did were before adding Isocort. You can't test your Adrenal out put of cortisol on Isocort or HC cortef.

I am now working at STTM's Men's Thyroid and the Hypituitary Issues helping out.

If your cortisol levels are real low you need to stop working out until you get your Adrenals Supported with HC or Cortef. I stopped using Isocort 8 pills a day my Dr. finely gave me Cortef I am bad dam low in the morning so I take 10 mgs. the I do 5 mgs at noon and dinner.

Taking your temps are good but you need to do this the right way. Three hrs. after your up start taking them and do it every 3 hrs. 3x's a day. Then add them up and div. by 3 for an avg. Put this on a chart
That you will find in a link later in this post. Don't get hung up on how high the temp is to start but look for the avg. temp going up and down more then .2 tenths of a deg. This tells you your Adrenals are not supported. When your on enough HC or Cortef they will level off and this is went you can up your armour.

When you wake up and feel better no fatigue you can start to get some exercise but don't over do it you will stress your adrenals more. So go by your temp avg. as long as you leveled your good. When you go to the gym do a stress dose of Cortef add 5 mgs. to what your doing just before the low workout. This will help to keep you from crashing. Read the following on how I started to treat my Adrenals and Thyroid.
This is a copy of a post I sent to Bill.
Phil
----------------------------------------------------

Bill sorry to hear you have this problem your cortisol is lower then my first test I was 8. The ACTH Stim test will show if it's you Adrenals or your Pituitary not sending the message ACTH to your Adrenals to make Cortisol. Here is a link to Chris's Explaination of the ACTH test you need to read this I have seen posts where Dr.'s did it wrong. You need to be sure you understand about this test and how to read it.
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Most people find out they have low cortisol because they have a low Thyroid Problem one needs cortisol to carry the thyroid hormone from the blood to the cells. If there cortisol is low do to Adrenal Fatigue there is not enough cortisol to do this and as they up there meds they start to feel hyper because the hormone is going to high in the blood and not being carried to the cells. One big cause of Adrenal Fatigue is a low Thyroid the Adrenals work over time to bring up levels of thyroid and become fatigued.

Now we are finding a lot of men with low T had Adrenal Fatigue do to the stress of low T be it from the fatigue of low T or the high Estradiol. But it's dam odd that as men hear about this and are not feeling 100% on TRT that after a blood test there cortisol levels are low.

The first thing I did was to try and figure out what stage of Adrenal Fatigue I was at and it looked like stage 3.
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Then I went to this site and printed out a chart for tracking your body's temps. I would take it under my arm before getting out of bed for 10 min.'s if it is under 97.8 you have a thyroid problem my temps that I did were for 4 morning and then I did an avg. it was 95.8.
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Using this to take my temps it is also sold at Wall-Greens and Wal-mart.
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Then after I was up for 3 hrs I took my temp every 3 hrs 3 to 4 times a day and did an avg. My avg. was low between 96.8 to 97.6 and each day was up or down this is Adrenal Fatigue.

I then ordered a Saliva Test through this link.
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From the Canary Club for about $140.00 this is the best way to test cortisol levels and DHEA.

Then I bought the book "Adrenal Fatigue The 21st. Century by Wilson. This book was a big help in understanding this problem but doing what he said to treat it with stuff like this did nothing to my temp chart. It has this in it Pituitary Extract (Freeze-Dried) 120 mg
Adrenal Cortex Extract 33 mg and cortisol but you have no idea how much.
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Also he said to do B Vit.s.
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Vit. C
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Everyone with low Cortisol has low DHEA I take this 2 a day.
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I take 3 grams of a good brand of Fish OIL. I buy mine at Coscos (spelling) I get the one that is coated so you don't burp it up.
And there is Maca this helps keep your Adrenal hormones leveled. I was off this for 30 days and just went back on it I feel better on this. I do 1/2 tsp 2 x's a day. This is the best price and product on he web.
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I dropped the Adrenal cortex
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It did nothing.

I got some Isocort and started on it it is made from sheep adrenal's and wow the first pill made me feel good you need to start this slow. I did 4 pills = 10mgs. of cortisol first thing in the morning with food and 2 pills = 5mgs. of cortisol at noon and dinner. This changed my chart my temps come up to 98.4 to 99 but still up and down if your avg. is up or down from day to day more then .2 tenths your cortisol is still to low. I followed this to get started.
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My Dr. would not give me Hydrocortisone said it's not safe to use. So I got this book by Dr. Jefferies "Safe Uses of Cortisol"
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Showed this to my Dr. and he blew it off and pissed me off.
I got up to 120mgs of Armour and could not do more my charting even showed my Adrenals were not right to go higher. So I switched to HC and stated with 10mgs. in the morning wow in less then a week my temps were a straight line across at 98.6 first time in 8 months of charting things were looking good and I was feeling better. So if you need to treat your Adrenals the best place for help is Val. at this link.
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Most of the people posting there are Thyroid and Adrenal Fatigue but she helps for Adrenals only too. Do get your thyroid checked have the TSH, Free T4 and Free T3 checked and post them to her.

as I mentioned earlier, the saliva testing of the cortisol showed them to be ENTIRELY bottomed out...as in not producing enough. however, im not sure how strongly this would have been affected by taking 4-6 isocort a day beforehand. i am now taking 8 a day, and still having what seems to be cortisol/thyroid issues.

i could care less about the testosterone right now, as that seems to be at least on track with the test gel and the hcg. the real quesiton is the cortisol (is it low, or is the supplemental screwing results...shoudl I stop it and see how thyroid works without it??)

Im starting to question whether starting the cortisol was the right thing in the first place. we thought it was, as i seemed to have all the symptoms of adrenal fatigue (but could it just have been hypothyroid??) I started the cortisol pre- armour thyroid, and pre-saliva testing.

pmgamer, if your around your advice appreciated as well.

S

 

[Scottyo]

pmgamer,

thanks for the advice. I did have (now 2) MRI's done on the brain/pituitary. They found that the pituitary was fine, no abnormalities, although they did find a nice little brain tumor or something there (another story, appears under control and is COMPLETELY UNRELATED).

I did have the ADRENAL test done while on 4-5 pills of isocort a day. the doc never said anything before. should i stop taking this and get another one done....i know ill probably crash if i try to stop taking it though.

so what your saying is NO exercise until adrenals are fully taken care of? my body temp does fluctuate, but it seems generally to remain low (despite increasing armour dose to 1 grain). I always have the red, flushed cheeks thing going on. when i started the dose, and when i upped it, i felt a little edgy/anxious but only for a day or so.

any other input, chime in boys and girls.

 

[pmgamer18]

Yes do more Isocort I did 4 pills in the morning and 2 at noon and dinner. I now use Cortef my Dr. finely gave me a script for it and it works mucn better. My temps were 97 when I started today I do 10 mgs. of cortef in the morning and 5 mgs at noon and dinner. If I get stress out I add 5 mgs as a stress dose to keep from over stressing my adrenals. There are other tests you can have done to prove you have a pituitary problem you don't need a tumor mine is from a head injury. Go up to 8 pills of Isocort and see if your temps level off if not get your DR. to give you cortef. It would be best to come off the Isocort your only on 4 pills but do this slow like stop one pill every 5 days if you feel bad go back up to the dose you were at and try again in a week. The first pill you stop taking should not cause a problem but the next one in 5 days can. Then do a ACTH STIM test this is a good link to read about the test.
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Phil

 

[Scottyo]

Yes do more Isocort I did 4 pills in the morning and 2 at noon and dinner. I now use Cortef my Dr. finely gave me a script for it and it works mucn better. My temps were 97 when I started today I do 10 mgs. of cortef in the morning and 5 mgs at noon and dinner. If I get stress out I add 5 mgs as a stress dose to keep from over stressing my adrenals. There are other tests you can have done to prove you have a pituitary problem you don't need a tumor mine is from a head injury. Go up to 8 pills of Isocort and see if your temps level off if not get your DR. to give you cortef. It would be best to come off the Isocort your only on 4 pills but do this slow like stop one pill every 5 days if you feel bad go back up to the dose you were at and try again in a week. The first pill you stop taking should not cause a problem but the next one in 5 days can. Then do a ACTH STIM test this is a good link to read about the test.
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Phil

Sorry if ive confused you. I am now on the full 8 (sometims 9) pills of isocort a day. i tried a very light workout, with 8 isocort and 1 adren-all in teh am, and am holding up ok now. Ill ask the doctor about cortef.

as for the pituitary stuff, they said my pituitary was FINE (i had another issue in the midbrain with tumor but no related). I think my issues are related to extreme dieting for shows, HAN seems to have had similar problems. I really jacked myself up cutting up when i was 18 and dont hink i ever recovered...just used gear and other stuff (around 21) to compensate. Im starting to feel ALOT better now, addressing the candida and stomach issues with strong probiotics. the problem now is that i dont seem to be able to keep much down. i have very soft stools and hope im actually digesting what i eat.

 

[hardasnails1973]

Sorry if ive confused you. I am now on the full 8 (sometims 9) pills of isocort a day. i tried a very light workout, with 8 isocort and 1 adren-all in teh am, and am holding up ok now. Ill ask the doctor about cortef.

as for the pituitary stuff, they said my pituitary was FINE (i had another issue in the midbrain with tumor but no related). I think my issues are related to extreme dieting for shows, HAN seems to have had similar problems. I really jacked myself up cutting up when i was 18 and dont hink i ever recovered...just used gear and other stuff (around 21) to compensate. Im starting to feel ALOT better now, addressing the candida and stomach issues with strong probiotics. the problem now is that i dont seem to be able to keep much down. i have very soft stools and hope im actually digesting what i eat.

My problem was that dieting leading to weaken immune system and being exposed to a food born bacteria from sushi that was not ever properly treated at the time through my body into total stress mode and chain or reactions occured. test levels dropped with in 4 weeks of excessive cortiosl from infection to 40 mg/dl and then t4 to t3 converion lowered, then affected cellular methylation leading to low homocystein levels, severe adrenal fatigue, excess copper in the liver, estrogen domaince (still waiting on test results). With anything you need to go back to the source of the problem. I was lucky enough to pinpoint, but drs did not do crap and labeled it depression..

 

[Scottyo]

I believe my was initially started from an excessive (almost anorexic level when you add in the sign. overtraining) dieting experience that lasted (strictly) for about 5 months when I was 18...followed by the last five years of applying 'band aids' to it. That was all followed by a dnp/test/mega trn cycle, and followed by a pct that included a STRONG cortisol lowering compound. After that, my body just completley crapped out. Test was what that first result showed, and my body has been handling things poorly (stomach issues started about 18 months ago pre-test/dnp cycle).


One queseiton that lingers for me, is if my body were producing some natural cortisol, would taking isocort suppress my production to screw up my Saliva testing? I mean, when i did the BLOOD cortisol test back in august or oct. was actually HIGH. Should i try to stop the isocort right now and see if my body can produce cortisol naturally? If so, how would i go about doing this?

 

[fbcoach]

Scottyo & Hardasnails,
Both of your incidents describe my situation exactly. For 2 years I followed the low carb..high fat..high protein diet. Along with severe overtraining. I do believe this is what contributed to my situation. Hopefully after all my bloodwork is done, I can begin treating it.

 

[theface]

I experienced many of the same symptoms. My doctor told me to try all sorts of things like l-tyrosine and other herbs. I began reading different posts about kids with adrenal fatigue from add meds that were taking dxm and benadryl. So, being desperate I tried both those only to feel loopy. I tried Reset and saw okay results. My best friend dave who is about to get his pro card let my try a supplement he had; ampheta-restore. I saw better results that with the other stuff that I tried. I live by this stuff now and would recommend it to anyone. I recently got my liver values checked, and after 1 month of the ampheta-restore stuff my values had improved when compared to last year's test. Maybe this is because this stuff has milk thistle in it, or because I quit running massive amounts of oral roids lol

 

[pmgamer18]

What ever you find that works for your adrenals go for it I had to switch to Cortef from Isocort because it was not strong enough. I went to 20 mgs of Cortef doing 10 mgs at 5am then 5mgs at 1pm and 5 mgs at 6pm this helped me to feel better by my Thyroid meds were not working good enough we need Cortisol to carry the Thyroid hormones out of the blood into the cells.

So I found my self stress dosing or adding extra Cortef because after a work out or even working out side I would get weak and shaky and feel sick to my stomach this means one is in need of more Cortisol so I would have to stress dose to much. So I went up to 30 mgs a day this did the trick.

 

[Gutterpump]

I used to shake all the time after working out before I started taking Cortef. I always wondered why this happened. Doesn't happen anymore though.

 

[pmgamer18]

That is great and if you do it means your over did it for your dose. If it happens ever for any reason take an extra 5 mgs wait 15 mins if you don't feel better take 5 more is it keeps up go the the ER. I had to do this last summer I over did it and went into Adrenal failure.

I was doing 20 mgs a day and it happened 2 times last your had to go to the ER and get a big shot of HC. So later my Dr. upped my cortef to 30 mgs a day. This worked great for me. My Dr. tells me to take my 10mgs in the morning when I am going in for labs he then tests my morning fasting blood Cortisol levels they come back between 8 to 12 he says this shows him I am not shutting down my Adrenals on the dose I am doing. When you feel like this and you take more it's called Stress Dosing.

I used to shake all the time after working out before I started taking Cortef. I always wondered why this happened. Doesn't happen anymore though.

 

[Gutterpump]

Ahh see I always wondered what the shaking was about.

When some really serious things happened to me in the past, or when I would get really angry or stressed, sometimes I would start shaking... I thought it was from high NE release.

I have to keep some extra HC on me then in the future.

It's pretty amazing now though..a lot of times when stressful sh1t happens to me, I can keep pretty calm and level (unless of course it's really bad). Wasn't like this before the HC.

 

[pmgamer18]

I have a friend that was in an auto accident and he had a bracket on his wrist that said he is Adrenal Insufficient.

It saved his life they gave him a big shot to keep him from going into adrenal shock. I have one when I went in for heart surgery they seen it around my nick and gave me big shots of Medrol before and after my surgery.

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Ahh see I always wondered what the shaking was about.

When some really serious things happened to me in the past, or when I would get really angry or stressed, sometimes I would start shaking... I thought it was from high NE release.

I have to keep some extra HC on me then in the future.

It's pretty amazing now though..a lot of times when stressful sh1t happens to me, I can keep pretty calm and level (unless of course it's really bad). Wasn't like this before the HC.

 

[healthbuff]

Everything should be taken in moderation, including moderation itself

I agree!

 

[pmgamer18]

For you guys with this problem here is what I did to treat it.

One thing I had to do to get my Adreanls supported was to go on Cortef the Isocort was not doing the job. As I went up on armour I was stressing my adrenals even more. You need to be on HC enough to support your body so your adrenals can heal if this can some they are bad so long they don't heal and you need Cortef or HC for life.

Here is a link on how I did this and it takes a dam long time to get leveled. As for working out listen to your body is your over doing it your just stressing your adreanls even more. If after your work out you feel shicky and sick to your stomach and feel like you need to lay down you over did it. I tell men to stop working out until they get leveled off on both there Adreanls and Thyroid just do some light stuff and walking. Your adreanls on in the craper and over doing this will keep them there.
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[comacho]

will taurine help by reducing the absorption of bile from the intestine so it doesnt go back into the liver???

Biofactors. 2006;26(3):201-8.

Relaxation and immunity enhancement effects of gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) administration in humans.
Abdou AM, Higashiguchi S, Horie K, Kim M, Hatta H, Yokogoshi H.

Department of Research and Development, Pharma Foods International Co. Ltd., Kyoto, Japan. [email protected]

The effect of orally administrated gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) on relaxation and immunity during stress has been investigated in humans. Two studies were conducted. The first evaluated the effect of GABA intake by 13 subjects on their brain waves. Electroencephalograms (EEG) were obtained after 3 tests on each volunteer as follows: intake only water, GABA, or L-theanine. After 60 minutes of administration, GABA significantly increases alpha waves and decreases beta waves compared to water or L-theanine. These findings denote that GABA not only induces relaxation but also reduces anxiety. The second study was conducted to see the role of relaxant and anxiolytic effects of GABA intake on immunity in stressed volunteers. Eight acrophobic subjects were divided into 2 groups (placebo and GABA). All subjects were crossing a suspended bridge as a stressful stimulus. Immunoglobulin A (IgA) levels in their saliva were monitored during bridge crossing. Placebo group showed marked decrease of their IgA levels, while GABA group showed significantly higher levels. In conclusion, GABA could work effectively as a natural relaxant and its effects could be seen within 1 hour of its administration to induce relaxation and diminish anxiety. Moreover, GABA administration could enhance immunity under stress conditions.

PMID: 16971751 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


i read taurine can help for under methylated people so i wonder if this is one mechanism??

 

[theface]

will taurine help by reducing the absorption of bile from the intestine so it doesnt go back into the liver???

Biofactors. 2006;26(3):201-8.

Relaxation and immunity enhancement effects of gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) administration in humans.
Abdou AM, Higashiguchi S, Horie K, Kim M, Hatta H, Yokogoshi H.

Department of Research and Development, Pharma Foods International Co. Ltd., Kyoto, Japan. [email protected]

The effect of orally administrated gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) on relaxation and immunity during stress has been investigated in humans. Two studies were conducted. The first evaluated the effect of GABA intake by 13 subjects on their brain waves. Electroencephalograms (EEG) were obtained after 3 tests on each volunteer as follows: intake only water, GABA, or L-theanine. After 60 minutes of administration, GABA significantly increases alpha waves and decreases beta waves compared to water or L-theanine. These findings denote that GABA not only induces relaxation but also reduces anxiety. The second study was conducted to see the role of relaxant and anxiolytic effects of GABA intake on immunity in stressed volunteers. Eight acrophobic subjects were divided into 2 groups (placebo and GABA). All subjects were crossing a suspended bridge as a stressful stimulus. Immunoglobulin A (IgA) levels in their saliva were monitored during bridge crossing. Placebo group showed marked decrease of their IgA levels, while GABA group showed significantly higher levels. In conclusion, GABA could work effectively as a natural relaxant and its effects could be seen within 1 hour of its administration to induce relaxation and diminish anxiety. Moreover, GABA administration could enhance immunity under stress conditions.

PMID: 16971751 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


i read taurine can help for under methylated people so i wonder if this is one mechanism??

I've tried GABA and Taurine and I didn't see much help with GABA. I talked to a neurologist about it and he said that GABA would be ineffective because of an absorption issue. I'll shoot him an email and see what he replies with.

 

[rara]

Scotty been hypothryroid for about 13 years. It seems your free t-3 is not in the top 1/3 of the range (important) I think you may need more armour or a combo of armour and cytomel. Free t-3 MUST be in upper range to feel right. Personnaly I cant get my temp up to 98.6 but i do feel good when T-3 is good. You also had high test and dhea supp so you need to test estrogens. The ratio of total est to total test as well as free test to estradoil is aslo important. You also need to test homocyctine to see if you are methylating . if conventional b12,b6, and folic acid dont help a perscription drug called metanx has the B vitamins in their active form (no enzyme conversion required )Vitamin D is also a must but be carefull if cod liver oil contains vit a as I recently read at Life Extension Foundation that It blocks absorption of vit D. LEF has good guidelines for vit D supplementation on their website. Also Dr Philip Miller has a great book avail through them called life extention revolution where he discusses in depth most of the issues you are dealing with, he has been practicing HRT for a long time and lists many case studies in his book, I found it helpful.
Good luck

 

[comacho]

the matrix,

this thread is intriguing because i also have lower end TC and TG levels.

I thought it was a good thing,

my acupunturist said it was bad but didnt relaly expalin much.

so i guess its liver stagnation

so are you talking about fatty liver? steatosis? whats the difference between steatosis and cholestasis?

since the bile is just stuck in the liver with fats,,,why dont people like us take TUDCA ?

also will taking tuarine help make TUDCA in the body? far fetched....

my 'ibs' would get worse on fish oil or cod liver oil, now i know why, i think i need more prostaglandins.

when TCM say warming food since my intestine is cold, they suggest lamb, beef and so on,,,they are probably talking about AA or omega6

never thought diarrhea was due to being too anti inflammatory or immune suppressant.

but bile is 'cold' in nature, and i have purple spot on the side of my tongue (liver stagnation), stagnant usually causes heat, so would it make sense that with methylating vitamins , TUDCA would be beneficial for people like me and scottyo?

sorry guys, this got really 'hippie' like but understand that TCM and western med need a bridge and a translation thats all,,,one day everything will be explained i hope.