Dr. John, info about your propecia patients

legenden1999

New member
Hello Dr. John

Could you give us an update about how yor propecia patients are doing. Like tell us how many you have, and if any has recovered, and maybe tell us what hormones you are treating (adrenal/thyroid/sex/HGH)?

Some time ago you wrote on the yaoo forum that you thought there were more to it than just healthy testosterone levels, are you any closer to the answer?

Thanks in advance!

JH
 
I am suffering from propecia's side effects: impaired erectile function. Basically, what advice can you give me, Dr John. In my case, though, arousal seems to be untouched. I had read some time ago that a doc simply prescribed his patients with viagra or cialis just to jumpstart their libido. Do you think for instance that such an option is valuable or is it BS?
Thank you.
 
Interesting...

I took Propecia back in 1998 when it first came on the market for hairloss. I took it for about a year and then stopped as my hair loss continued. Back then the dermatologist did not take any Testosterone tests or anything like that.

Now I find myself here.
 
Hey!
You have all piqued my interest. So there is a link between hair loss treatments like propecia(proscar right?) and health issues like a decline in a favorable hormone profile?

Man, am I glad I never went that route! I had a feeling something was up with this type of treatment. I started losing my hair, no kidding, as a senior in high school(definitely genetic, all males in my family history do). I decided to go the natural route and start shaving my head - been doing that ever since.

DHT was villified for years, and now that we know estrogen is the real culprit behind prostate problems.
 
Dr. John said:
Good to see you here, old friend.

Well, it's pretty much the same as before: keep trying therapies until we find one that works.

Not sure how many finasteride sufferers I've treated. Probably a few dozen.
Click to expand...

Thanks, and good to find you again ;-)

I understand if you don't want to write how you are treating them, but if you don't mind one more question. How many of those few dozen have recovered?

JH
 
legenden1999 said:
Thanks, and good to find you again ;-)

I understand if you don't want to write how you are treating them, but if you don't mind one more question. How many of those few dozen have recovered?

JH
Click to expand...

I'm curious also. Is there an oral option other than propecia? I've tried rubbing something on my scalp everyday and NOTHING is worth that.
 
The classical substitutes for finasteride are saw palmetto, pygeum africanum, betasitosterol (of which saw palmetto is),...
Check out this guy's site. He seems to have some answers.
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You can try his regimen, which he updates every month.
 
brm said:
The classical substitutes for finasteride are saw palmetto, pygeum africanum, betasitosterol (of which saw palmetto is),...
Check out this guy's site. He seems to have some answers.
Invalid Link Removed
You can try his regimen, which he updates every month.
Click to expand...

Just checked out this guys site. Very interesting and regimen
seems like it would be good for overall health as well as hair maintenance. I've been taking propecia for a long time and have maintained hair. I know it may be bad ( wonder if it may be contributing to my chronic thyroiditis) and would like to come off, but afraid of losing hair! Anybody try the supplements?
 
brm said:
The classical substitutes for finasteride are saw palmetto, pygeum africanum, betasitosterol (of which saw palmetto is),...
Check out this guy's site. He seems to have some answers.
Invalid Link Removed
You can try his regimen, which he updates every month.
Click to expand...

Along with all of the stiff I take already, that is way too much crap to keep track of to take in addition. I guess I have to stick to the propecia.




And, HECK NO shaving is NOT an option.
 
Immortal Hair hangs out @ regrowth.com....

The forum just got a mod recently, and IMO, has gone down hill since then....

Lots of info about hairloss there, and you'll see two distint sides...pro and anti -pharm....

Never took fin or dut myself, as I think balance is the key, and I'm certainly not defecient in propecia.....Plus, far too many people w/sides, sometimes irreversible, and for a drug that has little benefit....

Pray that you dont get prostate cancer after you use it....
 
DragonRider said:
Along with all of the stiff I take already, that is way too much crap to keep track of to take in addition. I guess I have to stick to the propecia.




And, HECK NO shaving is NOT an option.
Click to expand...

there is always transplants....

hairtransplantnetwork.com

hairlosstalk.com

hairlosshelp.com
 
what about switching to saw palmetto instead of finasteride?
Would this have less sides? or is that because it doesn't lower DHT as much.
 
Controversy about saw palmetto runs high. generally, its side Fx are admitted to be much less strong. What you can do is the following. Cut down your fin dosage by, say, 15% (that is, one day off a week) and replace the missing dose by its alleged saw palmetto equivalent, that is 320mg. So, from monday thru saturday you take fin then saw palmetto on sunday. Given the telogenic phase of the hair cycle is somewhere between 1 and 3 months (in my case, it is even under the month mark, mind all those theory-stuffed contenders that will stick to the 2-4 months hypothesis) wait three months to see if there's any change in your hairloss count. If not, get the thing further and take SP twice a week and go thru the whole procedure again. Thus you can get your fin intake minimal within a year. I am currently applying this method though I am down from way higher doses (initially 4mg fin a day, currently 2.5mg with quite positive results). I strongly believe that offsetting the lack of fin is possible but requires additional topical and/or oral non pharm treatments.
So, if your fin cut off proves unsuccessful, don't give up SP but try to add some more topical for instance. I have done so by upgrading my minox from 5% to 15% and am having good results.
One thing is sure: freeing oneself from finateride's claws is a long and very sensitive process if one wants to avoid losing the advantages acquired from its use.

I personally have opted for the solutions advocated by this guy IMMORTAL HAIR, plus have increased my minox regimen. His 6 key ingredients seem to be a good track to follow.
 
I wouldnt touch either finasteride or saw palmetto. They do a similar thing to males and just because saw palmetto is natural, its doesnt mean it cant screw you over.

I would use topicals and thats about it. Systemic DHT inhibitors are :smite: evil:smite: Its no good for your hormones or your prostate and for hair loss its not even guarenteed to work.
 
Perfectly true, jaydee, with the exception that saw pametto is statistically much less harmful than finasteride or dutasteride. But these who speak the way you do are generally subject to none or only mild hairloss cases and therefore not prone to take the plunge with dangerous medications. What's more, dermatologists are too often uneducated about resorts. Minox + fin is their stiff answer to any hairloss sufferer.
 
I'm down to 1.25 of fin. and I miss a dose once or twice a week. read up on activate by DS. this is supposed to help with hair also.
 
brm said:
I strongly believe that offsetting the lack of fin is possible but requires additional topical and/or oral non pharm treatments.
Click to expand...


I've tried the topicals and it is just way too difficult to try and keep up with. I need something much easier and less messy.


jaydee said:
I would use topicals and thats about it.
Click to expand...

Not an option as far as I'm concerned.
 
DragonRider said:
I've tried the topicals and it is just way too difficult to try and keep up with. I need something much easier and less messy.




Not an option as far as I'm concerned.
Click to expand...

removed the link....it accesed my browser and favorites....But google rogaine foam....there is an application video available....simple...
 
Dr John, Is there still a lot of mystery about this drug or do you think youv figured out what the problem is with it? There seems to be such a wide variation of ways people have recovered from using finasteride, if they recover at all.

This is the hardest part to deal with for me as a person with finasteride induced issues - the mystery about it and the fact that I dont know what the heck it did to me. I wonder if I will ever get it back.
 
Hi jaydee.

How long did you take finasteride for? What dosage? What sides are you suffering from? Have you tried anything against it and do you have any means to counter or alleviate the sexual sides?
Thanks.
 
brm said:
Hi jaydee.

How long did you take finasteride for? What dosage? What sides are you suffering from? Have you tried anything against it and do you have any means to counter or alleviate the sexual sides?
Thanks.
Click to expand...

These issues are what lead me here in the first place....How to take propecia w/out the sides....I started at every hairloss forum on the net.....Researched for years, and there is so much information/misinformation.....

Remember this, Propecia (finAsteride) is the hairloss version of proscar, a med for BPH that had a SIDE EFFECT of regrowing hair....

Anyone who says they fully understand it is, IMO, less than informed....

Merck put out a lot of clinicals about the drug and suggested that the sides only occured in~2% of patients....A gross underestimation.....

To try and understand Finasteride, why not monitor people before during and after treatment....The problem is the variables....

Look at it this way....If a room full of people inject herion, they are all gonna be high....Yet, with Propecia, one may regrow, while one maintains, while the other sheds and the other has sexual sides....one may have short term sides, the other irreversible.....

Ive had two Ht's and have been told to take propecia by the top docs in the transplant business....Never have, never will...

Noone is defecient in propecia, and , even if dht is the sole cause of hairloss, whice I believe it is a culmination of factors, dht is required by the body....And pray that you dont get prostate issues down the road if you have taken fin.....

So back to what I was saying origonally....I searched for the way to take fin and alleviate the sides and still get the results...Not gonna happen....
The key is BALANCE....Not too much dht,estrogen testosterone etc and not too little....

I'll post some science behind my "theroies" if anyone is interested....
 
I was on finasteride for about 4 months at 1mg a day. This should have been a fairly risk free drug to try as they take 5 times the dose in poscar for prostates. I noticed a reduction in libido while on it and came accross the finasteride yahoo group and after reading their stories, I dropped it straight away.

Sure enough within 2 days I could not get an erection and my libido was absolutely non existant. I am still very much the same and Ive been off it for over 8 months now.

There is nothing "in your head" about this. You physically cannot get turned on. The reason why anyone would want to take this after all the bad publicity its gotten on the internet escapes me completely. It seems that its not a matter of if it will mess with you, its how much it will mess with you.

The only theory that I have with this drug is that becuase it is metabolised by the liver, some people do not break it down as well as others so are effectively taking a mega dose of it. Those with sluggish livers etc. But then why does it continue when the drug has been discontinued? Also the dramatic hormonal change that happens when you discontinue the drug makes me think it has to be purely hormonal - but what? Some say its a DHT problem, others say its not. I just hope its not some weird receptor or neurotransmitter problem that a lot of people on the yahoo group think it is.

For me though, my Total T dropped by a third as soon as I quit the drug. Now that has got to say somthing. But this is the thing - other guys have got the sides even though their blood work is normal. There is a guy on the new propecia side effects site ("propeciahelp" - its the new yahoo group) who has had experience with this drug and says he knows whats going on with most of us.
 
christopher said:
removed the link....it accesed my browser and favorites....But google rogaine foam....there is an application video available....simple...
Click to expand...

Thanks Christopher. I will definately check that out.
 
I personally believe that more than the absolute DHT serum level, it's the freeT/DHT ratio which is involved. Disrupting this balance seems key to some close medical observers. I began taking prop in 02/1999 and did not experience blatant sides until I noticed in 2003 that arousal had slightly dropped in frequency. In 2004, still losing much hair though, I upgraded to 2.5 mg daily. The result, hairwise, was convincing but... sexwise too. My libido dropped sharply in 2 months with an obviously impaired erectile function. In spite of it all, I carried on with the drug and even increased the dosage last year to 3.5 mg as hair kept on falling out (hairloss has a devastating effect on me I confess...). I decided last november to ease things off progressively and am currently at 2.5mg with a lot of topicals and herbs to offset the dosage drop. I can get turned on but erection is clearly the missing point. I plan to try and free from finasteride's hold in the coming year but I guess that the damage is now permanent. Useless though to take it further.
PS: I will add that I will soon turn 43 and that the drop of my sexual activity may also have been linked to some genetic premature andropause as my father has undergone it as well around age 40. This "detail" casts an obvious shadow over the diagnosis to be made about the exact responsibility of finasteride in my problems.
 
Brm, whats this about Free T/DHT ratio? Can you tell us more about it? Also what doctors are you talking about that feel that this is an issue. I personally have never heard of a Free T/DHT ratio, although others might have.
 
My theory runs like that:

Before taking anything, do a blood test.
Check DHT
it should be in the range (30-85) ng/dL, (I like 75 as a goal)
If it is in that range, do not touch Propicia, Proscar, Avodart
If higher than that take Avodart.
The medicine have a VERY VERY long half life, months
Invalid Link Removed
thread carefully.
One pill daily make my DHT=29 with expected sides
No Avodart for two months DHT=226 (too high)
I am planning on one pill every 2 weeks.
For now I have stopped Avodart all together, but also lowered my Androgel. Also my Tcream is on a way home, supposedly some DHT is created by large application area, we will see.
----------
I used to use Proscar and Avodart intermitently for about 6 years, any sides would disappear after 3-6 months of not using (slowly).
 
Free T, as you may know, is the nonbinding part of testosterone, available in particular for sexual purposes. In my case, finasteride has sharply lessened my free T blood serum level whereas my total T remains quite high. An incredibly knowledgeable guy haunts Invalid Link Removed. His name is "Hypo is here". Here are a few answers he gave to my personal messages as I tried unsuccessfully to unravel the "finasteride mystery". You may find valuable info or opinion here and there if you read it thru.
As to avodart, I took some, 2 years ago, and developped a minor case (though permanent as well) of gynecomastia. I would definitely stay away from this crap that suppresses both type I and type II 5 ar reductase enzymes. By using fin, you give yourself one chance at least of producing DHT thru the 5 ar reductase I path, seemingly inactive or non existent in hair follicles if I remember. That may be the cause of a very curious libido surge I felt last year after dropping avo, as my DHTlevel was very high whereas hair did not fall out dramatically, bearing in mind the necessary time lapses to be considered (1 - 4 months). I ascribed it to an increase in DHT type I from the cessation of avo while DHT II was still in check from the use of finasteride I had then resumed.
here are the answers from that guy
Hi,
Yes I remember you….
I'll try and answer your questions as best I can and add what I think you will find pertinent.
1
You would expect DHT to be reduced within a fairly short time frame, within hours and days, certainly within the week. * How much it is reduced and more importantly the level at which it ends up depends upon dosage and individual response to the medication, which itself depends on many factors inherent within each individuals genetics and endocrine system and of course the persons DHT level prior to treatment. *
2
DHT blockers will wear off over time and progressively suppress the hormone to a lesser and lesser extent. *How suppressed the hormone is originally is again down to the dosage and individual response and original level of the hormone
My thoughts;.
It has been noted that sometimes when an individual alters their endocrine balance and the Hypothalamic- Pituitary-Testicular-Axis or HPTA (which is the control mechanism for the endocrine system) that their hormones do not always return to pre-treatment levels. *This means that some people are either permanently or semi-permanently affected by the medications they take while others of course return to pre-treatment levels.
I do not wish to overemphasis the above because many men recover completely to the pre-treatment state, nevertheless I do need to say that for those that do not see a return to such pre-treatment levels a form of hypogonadism is sometimes left as a result. *
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This is why I do not agree with the use of finasteride and DHT blocking medication in men except for the treatment of prostate cancer.
Regarding gynecomastia, obviously DHT blockers reduce the androgen to estrogen ratio and in doing so often cause the condition. *For some men coming off such a medication will resolve the gynecomastia, for others it will not and they will be left with gynecomastia as a result.
I hope that helps.
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Hypo-is-here
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Re: (No subject)
« Sent to: brm on: September 03, 2006, 05:14:53 AM »
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On the one hand we know that DHT blockers can cause a difficult to treat form of hypogonadism and gynecomastia of which you have had at least one.
On the other hand you appear to have high DHT despite the fact that you have taken finasteride and you have a very odd looking E2 level.
But you say that your doc doesn't want to have anything to do with the situation so my question is;
Where have you obtained these tests from, can you detail their source and tell me more about them?
I say this because when I see odd results I want to know more about the source of the tests.
Separate from such questions I would say that finasteride can cause some pretty odd reactions and I would be inclined to obtain an appointment with a decent endocrinologist who has an interest in reproductive endocrinology or a decent private doctor who knows what they are doing. *You would then be best placed to come off all endocrine effecting meds for three months with a view to having a proper baseline assessment.
It is important to come of such meds for three months as upping and lowering dosage can have rebound like effects that cause odd results that can give a false impression of what is going on.
You would also be wise to tell the aforementioned doctor of all the medications you have been taking as some may adversely affect the endocrine system and may need looking at.
Does that help a little?
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Hypo-is-here
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« Sent to: brm on: September 06, 2006, 02:04:43 AM »
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Thank you hypo. In fact, I am quite sure I suffer both hypogonadism since the size of my testes has obviously diminished over the past two years. Besides, I had noticed that the testes had reverted to a bigger size 3 months ago, which is now explained by the DHT rise in my blood.
If you suspect hypogonadism then you should get a referral to see an endocrinologist who has an interest in reproductive endocrinology.
Quote


About those rebound effects you mention. Do you know of any substance that can alter finasteride before its assimilation by the body? or something that might prevent its absorption or hinder its effect? I can not get to understand why the effect of a given effective drug can collapse in so little time.
The rebound effects that I mentioned does not relate to your question, as far as your question goes I think that it is a very murky one and one that you will not find an answer to. *What I can say is that each individual has a complex endocrine system of hormones that are often synergistic and dependent upon one another. *
For this reason every individual reacts differently to differing endocrine affecting substances with one medication or dosage having one effect in one person and something entirely different in someone else and these effects can change over time. *
I think your question is very unlikely to be answered any better than that by anyone. *You might stumble on an answer, but you certainly will not find one via any logical means.
Quote


Something else dumbfounders me. My DHEA level is still very low (919 ng/ml). And my free test is roughly 1.7 fold what it was 6 months ago. Why? Since the conversion of Test to DHT has dramatically increased, the free test should have undergone depletion. Likewise, since DHEA is still as low as before, it means it is not able to supply a higher amount of testosterone than before. So my question is: is there another source of production of testosterone than DHEA (some path that would have been reactivated in the meanwhile)?
I think you are spinning around and chasing your tail here, another phrase would be not seeing the wood for the trees. *Given the complexity of the endocrine system this is not surprising. *You are looking for answers to questions that might not even be the answers you are looking for, I know this sounds stupidly cryptic so I shall explain. *
What I mean to say is the bottom line is you don’t want gynecomastia, you want to feel well and you don’t want your hair to fall out and answers to your questions do not really get you any of that, even if such answers were available. *I think your situation can be evaluated far better and you can get nearer to obtaining the answers to the bigger more important issues by having a baseline assessment of your endocrine system in the manner previously mentioned- by coming off all such meds for three months.
Quote


About the odd bloodtest results. Are you suggesting that some results might not be reliable? What can make a DHT bloodtest not reliable (apart from flawed procedure)? *
Bloods can be unhelpful for many reasons. *If your endocrine system is rebounding from alterations in medications and/or dosages the bloods can become somewhat redundant, accurate maybe but redundant all the same as they might not be telling you what is going on. *Equally bloods do not always give us the whole picture due to their limitations- not all tests measure bioavailable hormones, not all assays are accurate etc etc. *This is a very complicated area of medicine. * Trust me when I say that bloods alone do not paint the whole picture.
You need to be off all meds for three months and you then need someone who is competent to evaluate your situation to see if there is anything wrong whether that is hypogonadism, adrenal problems or anything else.
Only by seeing a competent professional in this area when your hormones have been stable for three months can your situation properly be evaluated in terms of bloods, physical examination and assessment of symptoms. *
I hope that helps.
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Hypo-is-here
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« Sent to: brm on: September 12, 2006, 12:09:52 AM »
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The problem is you're in a catch 22 situation. *The only way to get an accurate idea of what is going on is to come off meds for three months and get an accrurate endocrine evaluation. *I do understand- but that doesn't help your situation.
 
brm said:
Free T, as you may know, is the nonbinding part of testosterone, available in particular for sexual purposes. In my case, finasteride has sharply lessened my free T blood serum level whereas my total T remains quite high.
Click to expand...

When I see finasteride discusions, what strikes me is a little presented tests, hard numbers often back-checked by numerous further tests.
Other topics (on this board) we try to solve looking at as many as possible blood tests.
Without data what remains is a lot of hand waving.
Not wery useful way of getting grip on a problem.
--------------
Very likely you have a bad FreeTestosterone test, most/all of as have unless assay was done in research laboratory.

To find out your testosterone picture either
may want to get from Quest Diagnostisc
Free, Bioavailable, and Total Testosterone
Invalid Link Removed
or from same blood draw get
TT, SHBG, Albumin
you are then able to calculate your
FreeT and BioAvailableT using calculator here
Invalid Link Removed
This is old science calculator (1990 knowledge) and have
1.5 to 2.2 times error according to this 2006 work (150% to 220%):
----http://www.atypon-link.com/WDG/doi/pdf/10.1515/JLM.2006.050
but it is best available, AFAIK.
Dr Shippen is using a chart that is based on same reference as shown in above calculator, so it must be good for something.

There is lot of other indicators at play, my short list:
Total Estrogens------------------------------
estrone, serum-------------------------------
Estradiol, sensitive---------------------------
Progesterone----------------------------------
Pregnenolone----------------------------------
Total Testosterone--------------------------
Free Testosterone---------------------------
DHT (dihydrotestosterone)---------------
prolactin, serum-----------------------------
sex hormone–binding globulin (SHBG), serum
Albumin-------------------------------------------
(TSH)--------------------------
Free (T3)-----------------
Total T3------------------------------------------
Free T4(direct)--------------------------------
DHEA Sulfate-------------------------------------
Cortisol (7:20)AM ----------------------------
Cortisol (3:20)PM ----------------------------
Hematocrit----------------------------------------
------------------------
I am not a doctor, I am on TRT myself.
 
brm said:
(hairloss has a devastating effect on me I confess)
Click to expand...


Me too and I suspect many others.

The thing I can't stand the most though is for someone to try to imply that it is nothing with the response "just shave it off."


Uh, no thank you, that is not an option.
 
brm, I know Hypo-is here. He the guy I was talking about on the "propeciahelp" forum. I am currently trying to get him over here and share his knowledge with us all. He does seem very knowledgable in this area and has helped a lot of finasteride sufferers.

I will keep you posted on this.

JanSz I have posted all of my blood test results on another thread that I started, but will repost them again if you like. Good point though and I would like see everyone elses pre and post finasteride results too.

Total T: 18 ref (10 - 33) nmoL/L
Free T: 47 ref (60 - 130) pmol/L
SHBG: 29 ref (13 - 71) nmoL/L
Albumin: 42 ref (35 -50) g/L (this one is a little lower, i found a more recent one)
Oestradoil: 105 ref (40 - 250) pmol/L
DHT: 2.3 ref (2 -20) not sure what the units was for that one.
Free Androgen Index: 62 ref (18 - 90) dont know the units for this either.
Prolactin: 160 ref (<500) mIU/L
LH: 2 ref (<9) U/L
FSH: <2 ref (<10) U/L
 
jaydee said:
brm, I know Hypo-is here. He the guy I was talking about on the "propeciahelp" forum. I am currently trying to get him over here and share his knowledge with us all. He does seem very knowledgable in this area and has helped a lot of finasteride sufferers.

I will keep you posted on this.

JanSz I have posted all of my blood test results on another thread that I started, but will repost them again if you like. Good point though and I would like see everyone elses pre and post finasteride results too.

Total T: 18 ref (10 - 33) nmoL/L
Free T: 47 ref (60 - 130) pmol/L
SHBG: 29 ref (13 - 71) nmoL/L
Albumin: 42 ref (35 -50) g/L (this one is a little lower, i found a more recent one)
Oestradoil: 105 ref (40 - 250) pmol/L
DHT: 2.3 ref (2 -20) not sure what the units was for that one.
Free Androgen Index: 62 ref (18 - 90) dont know the units for this either.
Prolactin: 160 ref (<500) mIU/L
LH: 2 ref (<9) U/L
FSH: <2 ref (<10) U/L
Click to expand...

Yes you did post your results on this thread;
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/57655-free-testosterone-albumin.html

I reply to that test (01-14-2007, 01:24 PM)
Mostly I suggested:
-----------------------------------------------------------
Your DHT look low, if you are going to use gel or cream (I use Androgel) put some on scrotal area that should raise it.
But you may want to start with HCG first, 100IU/day and see what happens. This and reduction of E2 may do the trick.
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and was shut down by Dr John (DO NOT put TD's on your scrotum.)

Your DHT is still low, have you got any advice from Dr John or somewhere else how to raise it?
Your T is low, try to raise it.

You are Dr John's patient, cannot do much better than that.

There is DHT cream as a second possibility if gel on scrotal area would not raise DHT enough.
Basically I stay with my view that I posted previously.
Let me know if you find out better advice, I like to learn.
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Do you have a pre-finasteride tests?
 
DragonRider said:
Me too and I suspect many others.

The thing I can't stand the most though is for someone to try to imply that it is nothing with the response "just shave it off."


Uh, no thank you, that is not an option.
Click to expand...

Lets look at it this way - if losing our hair is the worst thing to happen to all of us till we get really, really old, I'll be jumping with joy to the great and healthy life I was blessed with. :dance:

No hair? Big deal. Worse things can happen. Its all about perspective :)
 
JansZ my pre-finasteride results are very much the same except I didnt have a free T one and my Total T was around 25. It is now 18. I am hoping the gel will raise DHT enough without having to go DHT gel.
 
jaydee said:
JansZ my pre-finasteride results are very much the same except I didnt have a free T one and my Total T was around 25. It is now 18. I am hoping the gel will raise DHT enough without having to go DHT gel.
Click to expand...

I would try to say that we possibly established three points:
1. Finasteride is not the reason for your low DHT
2. Your hair falling out is not due to high DHT
3. Finasteride did not caused some permanent system alteration, your system came back to previous DHT level after you stopped finasteride.

----------------
T levels fluctuate daily so results of (probably) +- 10% from test to test are really same levels unless confirmed by multiple tests.
-----------------
After you feel that you have reached plateau with Dr John you may consider consulting with Dr Marianco on the other board. Just get ready for even longer list of tests, check here:
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.
If you are willing to post more details of you problems and what feedback you have got from doctors you visit, we all will learn and possibly someone may come with some good idea that would help you.
 
A few things JansZ. What makes you think that my DHT has gone back to pre-finasteride levels?

Also ive had about 4 blood tests to confirm my Total Testosterone level and all tests were done first thing in the morning to lesson the effect of fluctuating results during the day.

Why is finasteride not the reason for my low DHT?

How did you come to these conclusions?
 
jaydee said:
A few things JansZ. What makes you think that my DHT has gone back to pre-finasteride levels? Also ive had about 4 blood tests to confirm my Total Testosterone level and all tests were done first thing in the morning to lesson the effect of fluctuating results during the day.

Why is finasteride not the reason for my low DHT?

How did you come to these conclusions?
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jaydee said:
JansZ my pre-finasteride results are very much the same except I didnt have a free T one and my Total T was around 25. It is now 18. I am hoping the gel will raise DHT enough without having to go DHT gel.
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You own report, unless we have to clarify something.
 
Gotcha JanSz, my mistake. I didnt have a pre-finasteride DHT blood test done either. The only real change was the Total T.
 
plymouth city said:
Lets look at it this way - if losing our hair is the worst thing to happen to all of us till we get really, really old, I'll be jumping with joy to the great and healthy life I was blessed with. :dance:

No hair? Big deal. Worse things can happen. Its all about perspective :)
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Or about what is important to you as an individual. Some people have well shaped heads to sport the bald look. Some people have odd shaped heads or I have even seen people with rolls of fat up there that look like a Shar - pei.
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Some people look like Mr. Clean when they are bald (masculine). Others just look gay (like David Evangelista from TV Guide channel).
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So just because you can make peace with it doesn't make it all vanaity for those who can't.
Plenty of people with the Shar - pei look to their heads have made peace with it too.

How people feel about their hair is not so different than a bodybuilder. Some people don't mind walking around with a chest measurement no larger than their waist and hips.

Some people feel better about themselves with that V taper and larger than average biceps.

Do we run around telling them that their perpective is all askew cuz the can't just accept the average build or do we create site upon site to assit them in their endevor and even tell them where they can get the supplements (both legal and illegal) that will help them achieve it and maintain it?
 
LOL....I know Hypo also from Gyno.org...I used to post ther alot yrs ago....

I asked about Propecia one day and there was Hypo.....I believe his quote was "dont touch Finasteride with a barge pole"....He was my first introduction to DR. Shippen and his work, and the introduction to the endocrine systems effect on hairloss, gyno, mood...well, everything....

That led me to Hairtransplantnetwork.com....

Mostly for hairtransplants and everyone pops Propecia like its candy....I went to all the other boards and it was more of the same....

Talked and emailed with Dr Lee and learned alot....Then, by accident I found Regrowth.com....and Immortal Hair....I have emailed Immortal back and forth countless times....Before the server crash and the moderator, I had almost 1000 posts there....

Then there was a link to this forum about a post from BIG V (if I remember correctly) and about the "bodybuilders" thoughts on hairloss.....That led me here...

I always said it was about balance....Why grow hair only to have ED...? ( I wouldnt) ....

So from Gyno, to depression to hair to liftin.....etc

Make a triangle and all three sides have to lead to the other....So i went from vitamins like biotin and msm etc to fish and borage and digestive enzymes and probiotics to now TRT and possibly HGH....and full Bio-id HRT (or Anti-aging)
 
Dr. John said:
It all starts with one simple fact: DHT is responsible for allthingsmale.

Many men take finasteride with no ill side effects (that they know of). But the side effect profile is so nasty, and it effects many, many more men than is publicized.

I have a blend of Nizoral and spironolactine compounded for my guys. It really works well for most of them, and with no systemic effects.
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That would be solution just for scalp, for those who have a hair problem due to high scalp DHT.

What about those like jaydee here, he have a current systemic low DHT. How to safely raise jaydee's DHT within his body (is it also Nizoral and spironolactine) ?

He actually does not know if his low DHT is due to his use of finasteride or not (lack of pre-finasteride tests) and at this point it may not be material.
Even if his current status is due to his use of finasteride, he still is looking for help.
Is it possible to help jaydee if his low DHT is actually due to his use of finasteride?
 
Dr. John said:
Drugs of that class do not induce libido. If sexual interest is not there, they do not work.
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1°) Sorry, Dr John, I didn't put it correctly. I meant those docs took it that with guys whose arousal and desire were untouchedbut with weak erections , viagra was liable t o jumpstart the process and induce suitable erections even after dropping it. Is this possible or even true?

2°) You mentionned spironolactone. Is it cream form or solution? 5% spiro cream had a horrible effect on my hair, provoking a 3 month long heavy shed (250 hairs a day). I have continued with spiro solution but the effect seems weak.
 
JanSz said:
That would be solution just for scalp, for those who have a hair problem due to high scalp DHT.

What about those like jaydee here, he have a current systemic low DHT. How to safely raise jaydee's DHT within his body (is it also Nizoral and spironolactine) ?

He actually does not know if his low DHT is due to his use of finasteride or not (lack of pre-finasteride tests) and at this point it may not be material.
Even if his current status is due to his use of finasteride, he still is looking for help.
Is it possible to help jaydee if his low DHT is actually due to his use of finasteride?
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You seem kinda confused there....When you refer to a problem with the scalp and a problem systematically, you are essentially referring to the same problem (DHT) , only different ways of treating it....Also, you are taking for granted that DHT is the cause of MPB, but that is a different topic altogether....

You said what about someone who has low systemic DHT?

That is what fin and dut are taken for , to inhibit dht internally/systematically, dut bieng the more agressive (binding to type 1 & 2) of the two....Whe you are speaking of raising levels w/in his body, and asking about using nizoral and spiro, that is not an option....Ketoconazole, the active ingredient in Nizoral, has dangerous effectic , as does oral spiro, if taken internally....

the fact that he has lowered levels of dht, regardless if he had pre -use bloodwork, are from the use of fin.....There are ways to cycle fin, or cycle off of fin, but treating the systemic effects isnt standardized....Fin reacts w/each person differently, and therefore, the effects/results/side effects /duration/longevity of effects is variable to each user...

If I were usin Roids, I would consider fin....But, since I dont and wont, the risk/reward just isnt there....

Finasteride lowers DHT systematically.....The other systematic effects are a shot in the dark, as is it potential to be effective/inneffective....

And BTW, these are just my opinions....
 
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