How stressful are methylated steroids?

[bell1986]

On your liver. I know it will vary from drug to drug.

If I'm being specific. I'm talking about. Epistane. The consensus is it's mild overall but still carrys liver stress.

I recently ran it for 4 weeks and I haven't felt that good for a long time. I'm on TRT and epistane was just a great addition. Kept my estrogen in perfect range and improved my mood and energy by alot. My estrogen is a b*tch on TRT. Fluctuates like crazy. Well it did until I found primobolan. I can now keep it perfectly steady. Aromatase inhibitors make me feel dreadful. Tried them all. Pharmaceutical + Natural ones.

How long safely could epistane be run? Say you were also running 1200mg NAC + 1G Tudca + Allicin (Garlic extract).

I have a bloodwork kit on route this week to test my liver values. I only ran epistane for 4 weeks as I'm still uncomfortable with methylated orals.

Anyone ran a methylated oral for a prolonged period?

My dose was 30mg split over 3 doses.

Thanks

 

[Ironpirate]

I've never heard anyone refer to epistane as mild. Epiandro is mild, I have used epistane many times 40-60mg daily. It always caused bp issues for me I preferred msten.

 

[Renew1]

IMO nobody should run methylated steroids for long.

 

[Hyde]

If your bp is staying good & you feel well enough regarding joints, acid reflux, appetite, energy, you can run it as long as you find your liver and lipid values acceptable.

I have heard of individuals running both Epistane and Dianabol for 6 months+. Dosage and personal response - as well as risk aversion - should be deciding factor. There’s a big difference in 10mg Dbol vs 50mg. Just 5mg Dbol actually destroys my digestion within 48 hours, yet there are people who have successfully used 10mg for prolonged HRT even.

If you want a specific answer from someone random on the internet: if your bloods are satisfactory now, run your next Epistane run whenever you’re ready and pull bloods at ~7-8 weeks in. If they’re bad, shut it down, but otherwise keep it going and pull bloods again in another month. I really don’t see why you would use an oral past 2-3 months, ever.

Anything over a week or so with most orals could be similarly achieved by a suitable injectable replacement typically (ex: you could blast test prop instead of Dbol even on a fairly short timeline), so you have to realize you’re taking extra longterm risks that aren’t necessary. People do get liver cancer from orals, besides promoting atherosclerosis & cardiovascular disease.

 

[Hyde]

One last point: EVERYTHING can have a longterm cost.

Just because bloods are alright for now doesn’t mean there isn’t longterm damage from the extra stress & inflammation. But the lower things like BP/pulse and blood values are, the slower it’s probably harming things.

 

[Smont]

For liver reasons, the dangers of orals are greatly exaggerated. But for more important health reasons you should limit there use to a short 4-6 week burst maybe once or twice a year.

To add something to this, unless you gotta step on stage looking gnarly or a pl meet theres no reason to ever use orals unless you just want to. I usually use them when I'm going for a strength pr or I got a very limited time to crash diet a bunch of fat off, maybe anadrol or sd for a few weeks before vacation, vanity reasons lol. But injectables can do everything we need outside of prep's and I'm sure many guys can still do preps and pl without orals too.

But liver toxicity, especially in short bursts ain't the reason to worry. Your heart is the reason

 

[bell1986]

I've never heard anyone refer to epistane as mild. Epiandro is mild, I have used epistane many times 40-60mg daily. It always caused bp issues for me I preferred msten.

I've got nanodrol their. Nano particulated msten. I was thinking of that after the epistane run. Well atleast 8-12 weeks after quitting epistane.

What's the results of msten like? Supposedly the nanodrol version is stronger?

I'm using 30mg of Epistane. I find this dose makes me feel good. Keeps estrogen in check and I've added 5 lbs of extra weight on in 3 weeks. I was stalled at my weight for a while so the extra 5 lbs is from the epistane. I'm on TRT also. I don't play around with my trt dose. 60mg twice a week.

I will do bloods and see how they look. Overall I feel great. Blood pressure is 110/70. Honestly can't fault it so far.

 

[bell1986]

For liver reasons, the dangers of orals are greatly exaggerated. But for more important health reasons you should limit there use to a short 4-6 week burst maybe once or twice a year.

To add something to this, unless you gotta step on stage looking gnarly or a pl meet theres no reason to ever use orals unless you just want to. I usually use them when I'm going for a strength pr or I got a very limited time to crash diet a bunch of fat off, maybe anadrol or sd for a few weeks before vacation, vanity reasons lol. But injectables can do everything we need outside of prep's and I'm sure many guys can still do preps and pl without orals too.

But liver toxicity, especially in short bursts ain't the reason to worry. Your heart is the reason

Yeh I wouldn't run orals all the time. I'm not sure what it is but they can feel really dirty. They can mess up so many blood markers and destroy your digestion.

Thankfully epistane has had zero issues so far. My blood pressure is perfect. I feel great and I'm adding mass. I've ran other orals before and I've just felt like trash during them. Horrible digestion and lethargic.

I am on TRT and could easily bump my test. My issue is my estrogen can start going crazy. I can't use aromatase inhibitors at all. They make me so ill feeling. I was using primo to dial in e2 but even primo can be a sledge hammer for estrogen. I'm very sensitive to primo. I was running 120mg test + 30mg primo and my estrogen completely tanked (My estrogen was high so that's why I added primo in). Everyone was saying to add primo in at a 1:1 ratio. That would have ended me.

I will do bloods and see how they look. If my liver is stressed I will cut it out. I am running tudca + nac so usually it keeps my liver enzymes very low.

You run epistane before?

 

[Hyde]

I still think you should play with Masteron some, especially since you like Epistane.

 

[Joshlm69]

Aren’t you quite wary of MPB if I remember from the hair loss thread. Epistane will definitely further that..

 

[Smont]

Aren’t you quite wary of MPB if I remember from the hair loss thread. Epistane will definitely further that..

Not for me it dont

 

[Smont]

Yeh I wouldn't run orals all the time. I'm not sure what it is but they can feel really dirty. They can mess up so many blood markers and destroy your digestion.

Thankfully epistane has had zero issues so far. My blood pressure is perfect. I feel great and I'm adding mass. I've ran other orals before and I've just felt like trash during them. Horrible digestion and lethargic.

I am on TRT and could easily bump my test. My issue is my estrogen can start going crazy. I can't use aromatase inhibitors at all. They make me so ill feeling. I was using primo to dial in e2 but even primo can be a sledge hammer for estrogen. I'm very sensitive to primo. I was running 120mg test + 30mg primo and my estrogen completely tanked (My estrogen was high so that's why I added primo in). Everyone was saying to add primo in at a 1:1 ratio. That would have ended me.

I will do bloods and see how they look. If my liver is stressed I will cut it out. I am running tudca + nac so usually it keeps my liver enzymes very low.

You run epistane before?

Epistane is probably my second favorite.

I second hyde's statement to Masterson. The 2 treat me very differently but I love masteron too. Honestly I like dhts around the board.

You mentioned ratios, I like to tell ppl not to follow someone else "ratio" find what works for you and I wouldnt start at 1:1 unless your not going past trt I'd say do mast or primo about 1/2 your test to start unless your very estrogen sensitive

 

[bell1986]

Epistane is probably my second favorite.

I second hyde's statement to Masterson. The 2 treat me very differently but I love masteron too. Honestly I like dhts around the board.

You mentioned ratios, I like to tell ppl not to follow someone else "ratio" find what works for you and I wouldnt start at 1:1 unless your not going past trt I'd say do mast or primo about 1/2 your test to start unless your very estrogen sensitive

Yeh I made the mistake of doing a 1:1 ratio the first ever time experimenting with primo. Crashed my estrogen and took about 6 weeks to climb again. Never again. Such a horrible time.

I don't use primo when using epistane. Epistane definitely has AI properties. I've got bloodwork showing it's keeping my estrogen in range.

Masteron. I have a vial of it their. I'm sure I got it chucked in with an order. I've never really experimented with it.

What's the benefits of it?

 

[PolishHamm3r77]

Epistane is probably my second favorite.

I second hyde's statement to Masterson. The 2 treat me very differently but I love masteron too. Honestly I like dhts around the board.

You mentioned ratios, I like to tell ppl not to follow someone else "ratio" find what works for you and I wouldnt start at 1:1 unless your not going past trt I'd say do mast or primo about 1/2 your test to start unless your very estrogen sensitive

3rd party info I got from watching “Bro Chat” on YouTube w Fouad and Co. he had Mike Isratel on and he is prepping for a show prob 10 days out by now as the video is a week old etc but this goes to @Smont ’s point of find out what works for you. He is running this
Test e or c I forget 100mg/wk
Primo 800mg/wk
Tren 100mg/wk
Anavar 100mg/day

1700mg total for week and I know you are not trying to get your pro card but the 100 of test clearly makes him aromatise enough that 800mg Primo offsets that

there is no “cookie cutter” formula.

 

[Smont]

3rd party info I got from watching “Bro Chat” on YouTube w Fouad and Co. he had Mike Isratel on and he is prepping for a show prob 10 days out by now as the video is a week old etc but this goes to @Smont ’s point of find out what works for you. He is running this
Test e or c I forget 100mg/wk
Primo 800mg/wk
Tren 100mg/wk
Anavar 100mg/day

1700mg total for week and I know you are not trying to get your pro card but the 100 of test clearly makes him aromatise enough that 800mg Primo offsets that

there is no “cookie cutter” formula.

Things are a little different when tren is involved. Some guys cant crash there estrogen while on tren. I know it shows up as estrogen on some tests but I dont fully understand it.

The point I'm making, or at least to my understanding, if he removed his tren he may experience something very different with all other doses staying the same.

But to also further your point, oldschool contest prep had a few common cycles, Arnold made primo and var a popular stack with no test. That on paper would crash ppls estrogen but it was a fairly common cycle

 

[Hyde]

Things are a little different when tren is involved. Some guys cant crash there estrogen while on tren. I know it shows up as estrogen on some tests but I dont fully understand it.

The point I'm making, or at least to my understanding, if he removed his tren he may experience something very different with all other doses staying the same.

But to also further your point, oldschool contest prep had a few common cycles, Arnold made primo and var a popular stack with no test. That on paper would crash ppls estrogen but it was a fairly common cycle

And to piggyback off of that and add to the “different recipes for different folks” convo, consider Mike is less than 2 weeks out from a show. Him using 100mg test with 800 primo then doesn’t mean he had test dose that low 4,6, certainly 10 weeks. And you can be damn sure his off-season doesn’t look like that.

 

[Smont]

And to piggyback off of that and add to the “different recipes for different folks” convo, consider Mike is less than 2 weeks out from a show. Him using 100mg test with 800 primo then doesn’t mean he had test dose that low 4,6, certainly 10 weeks. And you can be damn sure his off-season doesn’t look like that.

Ya fo sho, if you on 2 grams of test and swap to 100mg its probably 3 months before your actually on 100

 

[Hyde]

Yeh I made the mistake of doing a 1:1 ratio the first ever time experimenting with primo. Crashed my estrogen and took about 6 weeks to climb again. Never again. Such a horrible time.

I don't use primo when using epistane. Epistane definitely has AI properties. I've got bloodwork showing it's keeping my estrogen in range.

Masteron. I have a vial of it their. I'm sure I got it chucked in with an order. I've never really experimented with it.

What's the benefits of it?

What are the benefits of all steroids?

Protein synthesis, enhanced neurology, rbc production as mg rise.

Mast is a non-aromatizing DHT derivative. It’s much less androgenic or virilizing than DHT, so don’t let that fool you (like Epistane). It doesn’t lower estrogen as much as primo, but it does dry you out more and protects against gyno even better - if Primo also acts an AI besides an anabolic, Mast is more like a SERM and more anabolism.

Primo is the slightly better size drug. Mast is the better strength and physique drug. It’s also one of the most neutral compounds, besides primo, to add total mg with. And when you are refusing to raise test higher, you cannot take primo higher - but you might get to higher total mg comfortably with mast.

 

[Stacks1]

I've ran several methylated orals for 8 weeks with no issues. I personally wouldn't hesitate to run epistane 8 weeks. But everyone is different and not everyone can tolerate them. It seems the more cycles you run, the less people can tolerate orals. I started AAS later than most and run fairly moderate cycles, so I chalk up my ability to tolerate orals to that.

Obviously a methylated oral is a horrible choice to control estrogen long-term though. I think that goes without saying. But I wouldn't freak out over an 8 week cycle at a normal dose. Always make sure you get your blood work done before you start though. I tend to think a lot of people who have serious liver injury, jaundice, etc., from orals are the ones who don't get their blood work done pre-cycle and end up going into the cycle with already poor liver values. I'm not saying that's everybody but I think it probably accounts for some of those cases.

 

[johnny412]

For liver reasons, the dangers of orals are greatly exaggerated. But for more important health reasons you should limit there use to a short 4-6 week burst maybe once or twice a year.

To add something to this, unless you gotta step on stage looking gnarly or a pl meet theres no reason to ever use orals unless you just want to. I usually use them when I'm going for a strength pr or I got a very limited time to crash diet a bunch of fat off, maybe anadrol or sd for a few weeks before vacation, vanity reasons lol. But injectables can do everything we need outside of prep's and I'm sure many guys can still do preps and pl without orals too.

But liver toxicity, especially in short bursts ain't the reason to worry. Your heart is the reason

how much fat can you crash diet off? just curious a general short time frame
and results

 

[bell1986]

how much fat can you crash diet off? just curious a general short time frame
and results

I personally wouldn't crash diet. You will feel like trash within a matter of days. If you were desperate to get as much fat off as possible and retain as much mass as possible. A protein sparing modified fast would be the best option. I would do 1g of protein x body weight in pounds. Say your 200lbs. I would do 200g+ of protein. That's like 800 calories. Honestly you will feel like mould within a short time frame though. I done this once for 14 days. Lost a huge amount of scale weight but I just felt like sh*t.

Just do a 500 cal deficit. Add in some cardio and you will get the fat off. You will feel much better and not lethargic all day.

 

[Smont]

how much fat can you crash diet off? just curious a general short time frame
and results

There is no real answer to that question and I didnt actually mean crash diet. I can probably force of 20lbs in a week with excessive cardio and low cals but actual fat, maybe 2-3lbs. The rest of that weight loss is water and the fact I probably ate 10 less pounds of food that week

 

[mase1]

For most of us older guys the oral steroid route just doesn't work feel good anymore, for me adding anavar to 350mg test just isn't as fun as I hoped. Has me thinking this will be my last oral add on.

 

[johnny412]

There is no real answer to that question and I didnt actually mean crash diet. I can probably force of 20lbs in a week with excessive cardio and low cals but actual fat, maybe 2-3lbs. The rest of that weight loss is water and the fact I probably ate 10 less pounds of food that week

this comment is NOT me being a dick lol but ive always thought that even if you lose 10 lbs of water you still weigh 10 lbs less so it has benefits still. or no?

 

[bell1986]

For most of us older guys the oral steroid route just doesn't work feel good anymore, for me adding anavar to 350mg test just isn't as fun as I hoped. Has me thinking this will be my last oral add on.

Yeh I'm similar. In my 20's I could play with anything and never get side effects.

I was using epistane just their for 5 weeks. The first 3 weeks felt fantastic. 4th week I started to feel off and that 5th week I had horrible fatigue. My muscles felt like concrete. Just felt exhausted all day. I dropped the epi. Thankfully it has a very short half life so I reckon I should be good in a couple days. I also noticed an ache around my top right abdomen. I've got a bloodwork kit on route to be tested. This will show any liver stress.

Your running 350mg test? How do you aromatise? You using an aromatase inhibitor?

 

[mase1]

I could go 500mg and never had issues, never went higher though. Funny thing I would actually prefer s4 over any other oral at this point. But yeah the vision sides suck. Guess mast next, have tren on standby.

 

[Smont]

this comment is NOT me being a dick lol but ive always thought that even if you lose 10 lbs of water you still weigh 10 lbs less so it has benefits still. or no?

No cus it's just making you dehydrated, you will gain it back as soon as you stop doing excessive cardio And whatever else you did to drop the water weight in the first place.

If crash diets and water manipulation worked for long term success The entire planet would look fantastic all the time. When you crash diet or do something extreme to make an extreme transformation the results are short-lived like a matter of days sometimes only 1 day.

Heres a example. Last year I tried to cut from 200 to 180 in a week for a deadlift comp, I came in 2 pounds over, at 9am I weighed 182. By bedtime I was 194lbs. Gained 12 back in 1 day. Now I'd bet my ass i lost 2 or 3 lbs of fat that week. But now I'm toast, if i continued on that crash I'd be loosing muscle, probably did loose some muscle that week too. Being hydrated makes you flush out excess water. But when you dehydrate yourself to lose weight your body is like a sponge and it's gonna suck up everything you give it so the weight loss is super temporary

 

[Smont]

I could go 500mg and never had issues, never went higher though. Funny thing I would actually prefer s4 over any other oral at this point. But yeah the vision sides suck. Guess mast next, have tren on standby.

If you like s4 then go for s23. It's better in every way, has a little higher risk of sides on liver values and BP and whatnot but I personally didn't experience any sides other then some cramping if I wasn't well hydrated

 

[Hyde]

If you like s4 then go for s23. It's better in every way, has a little higher risk of sides on liver values and BP and whatnot but I personally didn't experience any sides other then some cramping if I wasn't well hydrated

S23 makes me crampy so I wanted to warn extra sodium and magnesium is ideal with it.

Otherwise, not many sides. It’s bad for lipids and can be on hair for some, but it’s definitely got some cosmetic punch around 40-50mg. Gives me heartburn like all orals now lol.

 

[mase1]

S23 makes me crampy so I wanted to warn extra sodium and magnesium is ideal with it.

Otherwise, not many sides. It’s bad for lipids and can be on hair for some, but it’s definitely got some cosmetic punch around 40-50mg. Gives me heartburn like all orals now lol.

Yeah I haven't heard much good from s23 to really give it a go. After I finish out my anavar hopefully I can be smart and not use any more orals as they just don't sit well with me anymore. Even high dose epiandro as a mild thing just makes me tired and doesn't add much other then prostate irritation. Much like eca stack, can't even endure that anymore. Lol

 

[Smont]

S23 makes me crampy so I wanted to warn extra sodium and magnesium is ideal with it.

Otherwise, not many sides. It’s bad for lipids and can be on hair for some, but it’s definitely got some cosmetic punch around 40-50mg. Gives me heartburn like all orals now lol.

I really consider sarms steroids, mainly because we dont have any that really do what we expect from a sarm, "the selective part lol". But s23 I definitely would lump into oral steroids.

 

[bell1986]

Yeah I haven't heard much good from s23 to really give it a go. After I finish out my anavar hopefully I can be smart and not use any more orals as they just don't sit well with me anymore. Even high dose epiandro as a mild thing just makes me tired and doesn't add much other then prostate irritation. Much like eca stack, can't even endure that anymore. Lol

If you don't mind me asking. What age are you?

I'm in the exact same boat as you. I still want to experiment but my body just refuses alot of compounds. It annoys me lol. Even mild compounds I use to take years ago and handled with ease. Forskolin/Rhodiola/berberine etc. All cause me issues now. Usually it's lethargy and mood changes.

I was doing great on Epistane. I thought. I've found a nice compound that agrees with me. Week 4 arrived and an almighty fatigue set in. I felt off and moody also. I work a very high paced job and I can't afford to not function at 100%. I also was feeling a dull ache on the upper right side of my abdomen. I sent bloodwork in yesterday. I should get the results Monday/Tuesday. This will show what my body is up to.

I've got a pile of sarms sitting. I've got them given to me over the last couple years. I've never fancied them tbh. I did play with Rad140 for a couple weeks. My hair was falling out like crazy on it though. Much worse than primo.

I am on TRT and will be for life. I recently picked up some hcg. Was gonna add that in and spend a few weeks getting all the doses dialed in. I know estrogen can be a nightmare with hcg but time will tell.

What are you currently running?

I'm gonna take a year off of experimenting. Just TRT + HCG. I'm happy with my physique. I don't carry a ton of mass and never will. I prefer the more lean look now as I've got older. I've done the dirty bulk periods and it was fun but I've got myself to around 10% body fat. I feel good here and also look good. Any leaner and my face just looks 10 years older. Not worth it.

Do you do bloodwork as you go along? In my 20's I never bothered with bloods. Now that I'm heading for 40 I do them religiously. I've spent £2000/$2500 dollars in the last 12/18 months on bloodwork. I feel like it's important for knowing how your body is doing. I could get free bloodwork here in the UK but the health service test what they want and not what you want.

 

[Stopstalking2]

S23 makes me crampy so I wanted to warn extra sodium and magnesium is ideal with it.

Otherwise, not many sides. It’s bad for lipids and can be on hair for some, but it’s definitely got some cosmetic punch around 40-50mg. Gives me heartburn like all orals now lol.

Man I get the worst heartburn and can’t even digest food on orals. I’m giving anavar a try right now, so far so good but I’m only on day 2.

 

[Hyde]

Man I get the worst heartburn and can’t even digest food on orals. I’m giving anavar a try right now, so far so good but I’m only on day 2.

I haven’t used it in a year, but I’m the same way and last time I used Var I got several weeks in before needing to add any Pepcid in. I ran 50mg for ~6 weeks with no issues besides that - I don’t get the awful lethargy or total appetite suppression as bad on it. It’s a superior drug for sure.

Most orals give me reflux in a few days, and appetite goes away shortly after. In Anadrol appetite goes immediately from the sympathetic overdrive.

 

[Stopstalking2]

I haven’t used it in a year, but I’m the same way and last time I used Var I got several weeks in before needing to add any Pepcid in. I ran 50mg for ~6 weeks with no issues besides that - I don’t get the awful lethargy or total appetite suppression as bad on it. It’s a superior drug for sure.

Most orals give me reflux in a few days, and appetite goes away shortly after. In Anadrol appetite goes immediately from the sympathetic overdrive.

Anadrol used to be my favorite compound, last time I used it I couldn’t digest food and at the time I didn’t realize it was from the Anadrol, due to the fact I had ran it so much in the past. I could eat breakfast and not eat again all day, the next morning I would throw up my breakfast from the day prior.

stopped the Anadrol and better in like 2 days, went and got an iv treatment and haven’t touched any orals since, until this run with anavar in giving a chance. I will drop the var if any digestion issues start. I’m okay with dealing with some acid reflux

 

[Hyde]

Anadrol used to be my favorite compound, last time I used it I couldn’t digest food and at the time I didn’t realize it was from the Anadrol, due to the fact I had ran it so much in the past. I could eat breakfast and not eat again all day, the next morning I would throw up my breakfast from the day prior.

stopped the Anadrol and better in like 2 days, went and got an iv treatment and haven’t touched any orals since, until this run with anavar in giving a chance. I will drop the var if any digestion issues start. I’m okay with dealing with some acid reflux

Dbol actually does that to me, only one I’ve found to actually jam my gut so far but it happens every time. You just lose gut motility/digestion. I did use injectable DBOL for a couple weeks last winter, and that had no gut problems - but I was getting inflammatory responses from the harsh solvents. So still not sustainable, just possible for very temporary use.

 

[Renew1]

Not for me it dont

Those of us who have followed you long Know....
That you aren't as likely as Most People to receive the (at least shorter term) side effects from steroids, and similar compounds.

Everybody else...
You aren't Smont. ....Be Cautious!!!

 

[mase1]

Man I get the worst heartburn and can’t even digest food on orals. I’m giving anavar a try right now, so far so good but I’m only on day 2.

Hope it works for you. Currently anavar slight heartburn but the worst constipation no matter what I add. Other then that feel fine but not like the good old young days on orals.

 

[Stopstalking2]

Hope it works for you. Currently anavar slight heartburn but the worst constipation no matter what I add. Other then that feel fine but not like the good old young days on orals.

I use to be able to stack superdrol/phera/tren(oral) at crazy doses no sides.. now I’m 39 and my stomach hates me
Lol

 

[mase1]

Yeah at this point I will try s4 and never tried s23 and I'm done with orals. S4 always did me great minus the eye sight. Will finish out my anavar and no more of that.