Punkrocker
Well-known member
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Escape from hematocrit Tyranny!
- Thread starter Punkrocker
- Start date
JeremyNG25
Active member
I really need to be reading about this. Just got blood work back. My total T is 70 and my free test is 2.3! **** my life man
JeremyNG25
Active member
I feel like **** I’m really going to need your guys help navigating this TRT stuff soon
sns8778
Board Sponsor
I'm sorry to hear that you're feeling rough.
I have an endocrinology condition myself and my levels have fluctuated a lot over the years, so I know it can make you feel terrible.
TRT is a very individual decision and there are pro's but there are definitely con's to deciding to do it.
As to the subject of this thread, some doctors make it out like someone has to donate blood to be on TRT but then others (like in the video in this thread) downplay it and act like it isn't a big deal. It's not the donating blood part that is really the issue - its that donating blood is the most effective way to bring down a person's blood numbers if they get too high.
That is the debate on Hematocrit/Hemoglobin in general - some TRT doctors say it isn't a big deal, but most cardiologists and blood specialists feel like it is a big deal if a person's numbers go above a certain point.
I don't think that people need to donate just for the heck of it if they don't want to, but if a person's numbers are high in their bloodwork, then they absolutely need to for safety reasons. And if a person finds their numbers going high continuously, then the best course of action is to do a planned donation schedule to try to stay ahead of it.
A lot of people I think believe videos like this and try to justify not giving blood even when their levels are high because they want to believe they'll be okay and may hate giving blood. I absolutely hate needles and especially IV's and giving blood, so I get hating to do it. But if the levels are high in someone's blood, they need to listen to a cardiologist or blood specialist and try to get their levels down or there can be very serious health consequences.
Beau
Well-known member
FWIW - I donated blood long before Hematocrit/Hemoglobin was even on my radar, out of a desire to provide benefit to others in need. Now that Hematocrit/Hemoglobin is on my radar, I continue to do what I've done for some time. For me, I don't see a downside and I have no concerns with needles. Here is a point that others may want to consider: If I am correct that there is (generally) no downside to donations, and knowing there may be some degree of disagreement on the extent to which it is required - here is the question - If those who contend that high Hematocrit/Hemoglobin is not an issue are correct, well - I have not done anything to my detriment by donating and may have helped others. If, however, those who contend that high Hematocrit/Hemoglobin is an issue are correct, then I have done something to my benefit and may have helped others. Why, if and until there is complete consensus that high Hematocrit/Hemoglobin is not an issue, would someone choose to take the risk of not taking steps to reduce Hematocrit/Hemoglobin. Regardless, I will continue to donate blood until it is conclusively determined that donating is harmfull.
Punkrocker
Well-known member
Just get some test. Research
I have been for the longest time bro I feel so free now that this new information has been coming out lol
Punkrocker
Well-known member
Sorry what I meant to say was to get some testosterone. Research all you can (we have the Internet I could literally run my own trt clinic at this point lol).
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GreenMachineX
Well-known member
I haven't watched the video in its entirety, but this is discussed extensively on excelmale.com forums where the general consensus is elevated H/H can be a problem if too high for too long. But, donating blood isn't always the best answer as it can trash your ferritin like it did mine and many others. Lowering dose eliminates the need to donate and the cycle of test increasing H/H, donating blood, crashing ferritin, taking iron, H/H goes up again, etc.
Smont
Legend
It's not concrete information. I'm not huge on donating if I don't feel it's necessary, and before anyone says I'm against donating I'm not, especially for the helping of others. But after I donate I feel crappy and I've always felt like the more often I use to donate the faster it goes up and I need to donate again.
Put all that aside, a couple youtube videos that you just came across is not a reason to abandon the idea that blood donating can be benificial to others and have benifits for your own health too.
This also isint new or groundbreaking. This conversation/debate/2 sides to the coin has been in the works for years.
I'm not the guy to tell ppl to rush out and donate but we also don't want impressionable people or young guys on the forum to see these threads and think donating is bad or useless. That could potentially cost someone there life in a extreme situation.
You gotta take this stuff with a grain of salt and make your own personal decisions but don't just throw everything you know out the window in the process
kisaj
Legend
The reality is, donation isn't an answer, it is a bandaid. I donate because it is good for others and it does temporarily lower hemoglobin and hematocrit, but I've mentioned before that from a "feeling" perspective it does nothing for me. I like getting my email letting me know that my donation went to help someone, that's about it.
I've mentioned many times over the years that living at altitude, and being on TRT for 13+ years, not a single specialist or doctor has ever once been concerned about higher HCT even when I hit 55 a few times. The only comment once was that they like to see it under 56 and that if it goes over to "consider" donation. A few specialists said 58-60 is danger zone and they would schedule a phlebotomy at that point- though none have ever experienced a cardiac event or direct issue because of it. All of this goes 100% against what you read online.
This isn't to say don't manage it and monitor it, only to say that it seems much of it is blown out of proportion and likely that dated information is still being regurgitated as often is when it comes to TRT.
I've mentioned many times over the years that living at altitude, and being on TRT for 13+ years, not a single specialist or doctor has ever once been concerned about higher HCT even when I hit 55 a few times. The only comment once was that they like to see it under 56 and that if it goes over to "consider" donation. A few specialists said 58-60 is danger zone and they would schedule a phlebotomy at that point- though none have ever experienced a cardiac event or direct issue because of it. All of this goes 100% against what you read online.
This isn't to say don't manage it and monitor it, only to say that it seems much of it is blown out of proportion and likely that dated information is still being regurgitated as often is when it comes to TRT.
MrKleen73
Legend
I was just looking for a video from a Dr who specializes in this who says secondary polycythemia is nowhere near as dangerous, and sites several reasons then goes on to explain why people tend to get it confused with polycythemia vera which increase more blood factors than just red blood cells which is why it becomes dangerous, increased platelets, WBC and all creating a sludge if you will. Of course he is just one doctor but I found it interesting.
sns8778
Board Sponsor
I think that there is often a huge misconception or misunderstanding about this subject anyway.
I have seen so many people post about high red blood cells as a result of TRT and call it Polycythemia Vera.
I've also seen so many people try to say that it is not as dangerous as Polycythemia Vera.
Having high red blood cells as a result of TRT is NOT Polycythemia Vera.
Having high red blood cells as a result of TRT is not as dangerous as Polycythemia Vera.
BUT that doesn't mean that having high red blood cells isn't dangerous; saying that something isn't as dangerous as Polycythemia Vera is like saying that jumping off a five story hotel isn't as dangerous as jumping off a skyscraper. It may not be as dangerous, but it dang sure is not safe and it can still kill your or really mess you up even if it doesn't.
I think that a lot of people making this comparison don't realize what Polycythemia Vera actually is, and many have the misunderstanding of using that term as a blanket term where they think it means increased red blood cells.
Actual Polycythemia Vera is a serious medical condition and is considered a form of blood cancer.
According to John Hopkins Medical Center:
Polycythemia vera is a rare blood disorder in which there is an increase in all blood cells, particularly red blood cells. The increase in blood cells makes your blood thicker. This can lead to strokes or tissue and organ damage.
According to Mt. Sinai:
Polycythemia vera (PV) is a bone marrow disease that leads to an abnormal increase in the number of blood cells. The red blood cells are the most affected blood cell type.
According to the Leukemia and Lymphoma Society:
Polycythemia Vera (PV) is one of a related group of blood cancers known as “myeloproliferative neoplasms” (MPNs). Too many red blood cells are made in the bone marrow and, in many cases, the numbers of white blood cells and platelets are also elevated.
So, no - having elevated red blood cells as a result of TRT isn't as dangerous as Polycythemia Vera, but that's not really what it should be being compared to to begin with.
Punkrocker
Well-known member
According to the videos I've posted and the studies they've cited, having ONLY higher red blood cells excluding the other cells and ferritin stores showed no significant risk factors in cardiovascular health. If that were the case then high altitude people with naturally higher hematocrits would be at a higher risk of cardiovascular events. Not only are they not at a higher risk, they are in fact at a lower risk. That's according to the studies cited. I'm posting all this stuff because it's very interesting to me as I was extremely neurotic about blood donations thinking that I was going to die if I had high red blood cells and now that I've been reading this new stuff and makes much more sense to me and it is easing my anxiety
Beau
Well-known member
MANY studies have explored the adjustments to Hematocrit/Hemoglobinbeen and iron absorption to individuals who are exposed to (or live at) high altitude. Some include interesting observations on how the body later reacts (a progressive decrease) when the individual returns to (or is brought down to) sea level. Generally, the studies I've read seem (to me) to suggest that there is a gradual return to normal rates in the weeks that follow. If so, in those cases, some might argue that (high H/H) appears to be an adaptation to the altitude, and one might be cautious in applying high H/H based logic outside of high altitude environment. Just my well intended (novice) observations.
sns8778
Board Sponsor
First, I'm glad for your sake that researching this subject has helped you find some peace. I don't think that anyone should be super scared to death about it to begin with. I think that people should be cautious of it, but not paranoid of it; and I think that people should rely on bloodwork to make smart decisions and that they should also speak with their prescribing physicians about the issue to make the most well-informed health decisions for themselves.
I don't think that the high elevation argument applies to people that don't live at high elevations - simply because the body adapts over time to the conditions in which we live in. People that live at high elevations have adaptations to it - those of us who do not, do not have those same adaptations to it.
I think that the big issue on this is that people get so caught up in the extremes of the argument that they forget the common sense aspect of it.
Not everyone that is on TRT or that uses Testosterone is going to experience high red blood cells to begin with.
Some people that aren't on TRT or Testosterone are going to experience high red blood cells for other reasons.
There's the extreme crowd that talks like if someone on TRT doesn't donate blood regularly they're going to magically drop dead; but then there's the extreme crowd that acts like having high red blood cells is no big deal at all and that there's nothing to be concerned about.
This subject reminds me of politics now days in the sense that a lot of people pick a side of the argument, dig in, and don't want to learn and just want to be right.
At the heart of any informed decision is knowledge and understanding.
And in this case - its important for people to understand that just because having high red blood cells isn't as dangerous as Polycythemia Vera, that doesn't mean that it isn't dangerous. It means that most people don't realize what Polycythemia Vera is and how dangerous the actual medical condition Polycythemia Vera actually is.
I'm all about personal responsibility - the choice to donate or not donate blood if someone's bloodwork shows high red blood cell levels is ultimately on them, but so are the consequences, and those consequences could also effect other people in theirs lives, like their families. I don't think there should be the internet personalities scaring people to death and making them feel like they need to donate blood if their bloodwork doesn't say they need to; but I also don't think that people should listen to internet personalities telling them that they shouldn't worry about high red blood cells. I think that people need to take it seriously and discuss it with their physicians if it happens to them.
I think about it like this - can you imagine someone having high red blood cells and just assuming it was related to TRT and listening to an internet personality and dismissing it and thinking they were fine and then it turn out to where they really did have Polycythemia Vera and missed the chance for diagnosis and treatment? Sometimes, there are certain conditions that you only get one chance or a very short window to properly treat before they build and spiral into a whole different level of a situation.
My intention in this is not to be disagreeable with anyone; I just care about people and like to help people, and for reasons I'm not going to discuss publicly, I unfortunately know a lot about Polycythemia Vera and the unfortunate consequences of it.
sns8778
Board Sponsor
I believe that you are absolutely correct with that; that is my same interpretation.
A personal story, not about elevation, but about adaptations - and then how the body can become un-adapted seemingly just as quickly:
As some here know, I have an autoimmune condition and a very rare endocrinology disorder. I honestly feel like crap every single day of my life and have for 13 years. They say that an average day for me saying that I feel good would be similar to how a normal person feels when they have a slight case of the flu.
In my life outside the supplement industry, I do a lot of volunteer work. About 10 years ago, I went to teach in Uganda for a month. I was extremely worried before the trip because I had been having bad flareups with my autoimmune condition that left it difficult to walk. The fluid retention was so bad that you could barely distinguish where my elbow was from my forearms and my inflammation markers were thru the roof. The volunteer work I was going there for was dangerous, and mobility was important because if something happened and we needed to move, we needed to move. I almost didn't go because I didn't want my lack of mobility bc of the flareups I've been having to put anyone else at risk.
Long story short - I went and the first few days I was there I was feeling a lot better. I remember waking up one day and I could move, I was pain free, and I actually felt like getting up and moving around. I went for a walk, which turned into a jog - the first time I had been able to do that in 2 years. I could breathe better, move better, everything was better. The time I spent there was the only time in my life since I was diagnosed that I've been able to jog or run, and I was even able to go for runs. It was awesome.
I guarantee that if you could have checked my inflammation markers while I was there, they would have been significantly improved.
But here's where this circles back to being about adaptation - within 2 weeks of being back in the US, I was back to a terrible flareup and my inflammation markers were thru the roof and I could barely step up into or out of my truck. The major point being that - the adaptation to there, whatever it was about it, was incredible for me but it didn't change the fact that I have an underlying chronic condition that didn't go away because of that adaptation.
I hope I conveyed that in a way that the point made sense in relation to an altitude or climate situation.