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The Black Lion Research SUPPLEMENT SCIENCE RESEARCH thread.

brundel

brundel

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The forums have been a bit dull as of late. This thread is specifically dedicated to research and science related to sports nutrition supplements.
Novel ingredients
New research
Old research that is related.
Ill start-
Berberine. Widely used in fat burners and all kinds of supps. Well known fat burner.
Also a well known mTOR inhibitor-
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I think Letrone doesnt get enough attention. Atractylenolides are as potent as any prescription AI and there are myriad other chemicals in atractylodes macrocephala present that have really solid benefits for sports nutrition.

Atractylenolide III Enhances Energy Metabolism by Increasing the
SIRT-1 and PGC1α Expression with AMPK Phosphorylation in C2C12
Mouse Skeletal Muscle Cells
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I may give Letrone 2 a shot. Hoping a sale may pop along but it doesn't seem to be carried anywhere, I see Strong but that looks like the older version.
 
Strong may just not have updated graphics. You could ask them. I know there Is a pack of version 2 shipping to them today so they will have if they don't.
We will likely run another sale in a week or so.
 
brundel said:
The forums have been a bit dull as of late. This thread is specifically dedicated to research and science related to sports nutrition supplements.
Novel ingredients
New research
Old research that is related.
Ill start-
Berberine. Widely used in fat burners and all kinds of supps. Well known fat burner.
Also a well known mTOR inhibitor-
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I’ll have to check out these articles sometime. Any idea if the effects on mTOR are simply a byproduct of increasing AMPK? Those generally follow an inverse relationship, but I’m wondering if there’s a direct effect.
 
@brundel What do you think of fenugreek? There’s studies that it boosts testosterone but there’s also studies that it’s anti androgenic. I know that at least Furosap is undeniably good for testosterone according to data.
 
Ziyo said:
@brundel What do you think of fenugreek? There’s studies that it boosts testosterone but there’s also studies that it’s anti androgenic. I know that at least Furosap is undeniably good for testosterone according to data.
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I havnt dug too deeply into it but it does appear that it blocks or reduces 5 alpha reductase which converts testosterone to DHT and there is some evidence its an aromatase inhibitor. This i likely how it increases test levels. Less converted to estrogen and DHT = more test. There is also indication that it suppresses thyroid function which is bad.

Quote:
Fenugreek has once been shown at 500mg (brand name Testofen) to increase serum testosterone over a period of 8 weeks in resistance trained males relative to placebo (experiencing a decline in testosterone relative to baseline)Invalid Link Removed although another study (which noted a decrease in DHT, a testosterone metabolite) failed to find any significance influence on total or free testosterone using similar methodologyInvalid Link Removed and a study using 600mg of Testofen for a period of 6 weeks in otherwise healthy man has similarly failed to find an increase in testosterone.Invalid Link Removed

In regards to DHT, the one study to measure DHT noted a 9.42% decrease relative to baseline over 8 weeks supplementation of 500mg Fenugreek.

QUOTE:
Significant differences in DHT responses from supplementation showed a -9.42% change for the FE group accompanied with a 5.98% increase in the PL group. No significant effects for groups or interactions were observed for the anabolic hormones free testosterone and estrogen (p<0.05). Additionally, no significant main effects for groups or time were observed for the metabolic hormones insulin, cortisol, and leptin (p<0.05). CONCLUSIONS: Supplementation of fenugreek extract resulted in a decrease in serum DHT levels in comparison to placebo. However, other anabolic and metabolic hormone analyses were not affected by supplementation. We conclude that in conjunction with structured resistance training, supplementation of fenugreek extract does not appear to affect hormonal status in resistance trained males and shows no anabolic potential as has been purported. This study was supported by INDUS BIOTECH
 
Looks like some company ran a clinical trial for their fenugreek. The trial ended in 2017 and they never posted any results which STRONGLY indicates failure. IF it was successful they would be rushing to get the results out to sell their products but instead...silence. Generally this is because the trial failed miserably.
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Letrone doesnt get enough attention. Not only does it contain 3 aromatase inhibitors comparable in strength to arimidex but it has major anabolic properties. For example...show me another plant that can do this.=
-increased the average gain weight by 20.72%
Also- increased the levels of growth hormone (GH) 30.77%
insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I) 52.02%
3，5，3′-triiodothyronine (T3) 47.60%，
3，5，3′，5′-tetraiodothyronine (T4) 36.70%
cyclic adenosine monophosphate (cAMP) 21.15%
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I plan to try this in the near future after my Exotherm run. Currently on vector 2, foli & Exotherm. Is there any problem adding rebirth?
 
dukes3577 said:
I plan to try this in the near future after my Exotherm run. Currently on vector 2, foli & Exotherm. Is there any problem adding rebirth?
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Nope. Adding Rebirth will help increase test levels and will block the estrogen receptor so you experience less estrogenic effects like water retention and fat retention from the estrogen that is present.
 
ECHINACOSIDE, found in Androgin is a GHRP agonist similar to GHRP6. Potent stuff. Its oral bioavailability is terrible though so we complexed it with cyclodextrins. Take a look at this study proving its effects as a gh secretagogue.

QUOTE:
To evaluate if echinacoside could be an agonist of growth hormone secretagogue receptor (GHSR), it was subjected to examination of the induction of growth hormone secretion from primary rat anterior pituitary cells. Similar to GHRP-6, a synthetic GHSR agonist, echinacoside was able to stimulate the secretion of growth hormones from rat pituitary cells (Invalid Link Removed). Significant increases in growth hormone secretion were detected when rat pituitary cells were treated with echinacoside of a concentration higher than 10−6 M for 15 and 30 min. The treatment of echinacoside (from 10−8 to 10−5 M) for 15 and 30 min was found to stimulate growth hormone secretion of the rat pituitary cells in a dose dependent manner.
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For Growth Hormone stimulation do you advise that we take it on an empty stomach? and if so how many hours before/after eating?
 
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I think try first thing in the am on an empty stomach if it doesnt bother your stomach. Try to give it at least an hour after a meal to take it. Keep in mind it has to be absorbed before it can cause its action so its not instant like an injectable.
I dont really pay attention to timing when I take Androgen and always notice the GH related sides like increased sleep and hand swelling when I sleep etc. Point being I dont know if it makes a huge difference if you take with food or not.
 
Interesting just got a product with Berberine in it. I have some letrone on hand and enjoy it. Just recently purchased Vector 2 with Follidrone. I was curious what compounds in your products would be most effective for leaning out more as summer goes along.
 
Nprice151 said:
Interesting just got a product with Berberine in it. I have some letrone on hand and enjoy it. Just recently purchased Vector 2 with Follidrone. I was curious what compounds in your products would be most effective for leaning out more as summer goes along.
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Presently I would stack Exotherm and letrone with the Follidrone, Vector stack. Letrone and Exo are amazing for getting lean.
And in a few weeks we will have a new fat burner ;)
 
Androgin is a natural SARM and GH secretagogue. But what does that mean?
Someone online told me there is no such thing as a natural SARM. So lets explore what a SARM is.
SARM stands for Selective Androgen Receptor Modulator. Similar to a SERM like clomid but these bind to androgen receptors.
Some SARMS are antiandrogenic. Some have no anabolic effect and some have pronounced anabolic effects. The difference between a SARM and an anabolic steroid is, generally speaking, anabolic steroids are modeled after testosterone or DHT and carry a host of metabolic, HPTA, cardiovascular, androgenic and other side effects making them less than desirable if you value your health. SARMS are designed to ideally have none or less of the side effects associated with AAS. (this isnt always the case)
In the case of Androgin. We see that both Specific ginsenosides as well as Echinacoside and Acteoside bind directly to Androgen receptors causing an anabolic response. In some receptors, however, these tend to have an opposite effect than you would expect. For example we expect anabolic receptor agonists to cause suppression but Ginsenosides and Echinacoside actually cause a rise in testosterone and improvement in HPTA function. This is caused by the blocking of androgens in specific tissue IE HPTA, cardiac and Prostate. This is exactly what pharmaceutical SARMS are supposed to do. Anabolic action without negative reaction. I dont know of any other product on earth that can do this that isnt a drug being illegally sold as a supplement.
Only Androgin.
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migsacura said:
Any benefit to taking three capsules of Androgin per day versus two?
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So here are the things to consider.
1. We tested to this dose and I know it isnt suppressive. I wasnt certain initially due to the multiple compounds that directly binr to the AR but Ive seen a bunch of labs now and 90% show increase with 100% showing no suppression. At some point this may change but I dont know for sure.
2. I dont know the upper limit for effect. Meaning I dont know if taking 6 is 3 x more powerful than 2. Lots of compounds have a bell curve where the effect is best in the middle and above a point you see diminishing returns and in some cases opposite effects.
I think taking more should give you a more powerful effect. 3 should be fine but where that changes I dont know.
 
Androgen is a SARM and GH secretagogue. Continuing to add data to support this.
Ginsenoside Rb1 inhibits vascular calcification as a selective androgen receptor modulator
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thescience said:
this thread is intense. no idea how i could have been unaware of it's existence. definitely subbing
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Thanks brother. I remember when forums used to be really great sources of information. These days people dont look to forums anymore because there just isnt the same quality as there use to be. Now everyone thinks they are an influencer and is busy taking shirtless shots at their gym to post on tiktok.
I want to have at least 1 thread going here that breaks the norm. Im going to try to get in here and post at least a few times a week and I encourage anyone reading to subscribe, comment and interact. Lets get some good science and interesting stuff going here.
 
Also we are always testing new stuff. We need some testers if anyone is interested.
But we test very strictly. Meaning we would expect you to adhere to testing protocol, dosing etc during the test. And to document all pertinent data as we use this data to decide if ingredients are viable or not.
Have a bunch of good stuff on deck.
 
i was always interested in the 47% citrate synthase increase senactiv (actigin) advertised. i came across something that said it "is standardized to contain not less than 30% saponins, including not less than 10% ginsenoside Rg1. It’s also standardized for polyphenols (≥2%)." anyway, the one ingredient they insist on having a fixed amount of is rg1 and I wonder if id be pretty much be getting the goods and then some simply via a heaping dose of that. that said, there has to be some kind of trickery with how that actually translated into energy; does it increase like that in areas beyond muscle tissue? more atp at bigger dosages? humans produce 99lbs of atp a day and upping that actual amount by 47% would be pretty insane, considering the benefits a supplement like peakATP demonstrated at 400mg
 
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brundel said:
Thanks brother. I remember when forums used to be really great sources of information. These days people dont look to forums anymore because there just isnt the same quality as there use to be. Now everyone thinks they are an influencer and is busy taking shirtless shots at their gym to post on tiktok.
I want to have at least 1 thread going here that breaks the norm. Im going to try to get in here and post at least a few times a week and I encourage anyone reading to subscribe, comment and interact. Lets get some good science and interesting stuff going here.
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does being on a boatload of staple supplements at all times negate eligibility? ive got an opening in approximately 2-months as im running vector2, ecklonia cava 50%-90% tolerance-mapping along side some energy stacks with untouched bottles of alphabulk, alphabuild, the new follidrone, and androgin lined up for trial. i got a waistline that isnt quite where it needs to be and the beaches just opened here so it's crunchtime.
 
thescience said:
i was always interested in the 47% citrate synthase increase senactiv (actigin) advertised. i came across something that said it "is standardized to contain not less than 30% saponins, including not less than 10% ginsenoside Rg1. It’s also standardized for polyphenols (≥2%)." anyway, the one ingredient they insist on having a fixed amount of is rg1 and I wonder if id be pretty much be getting the goods and then some simply via a heaping dose of that. that said, there has to be some kind of trickery with how that actually translated into energy; does it increase like that in areas beyond muscle tissue? more atp at bigger dosages? humans produce 99lbs of atp a day and upping that actual amount by 47% would be pretty insane, considering the benefits a supplement like peakATP demonstrated at 400mg
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Honestly I think that company is bullsh.T.
All of their products use absurdly low doses of compounds that in some cases have extremely poor oral bioavailability.
In addition much of the research is done in pitri dishes and is performed and funded by the company selling the products. Same researchers are often responsible for the research and publishing and the results often conflict with other data points.

For example other research into Rg1 uses between 5 and 1500mg/kg. Not mg, mg/kg. And even then oral bioavailability is very poor. 5 mg orally is basically inert as far as Im concerned. Even if you do absorb it its half life is like 25min. And its rapidly eliminated from the body. The only way to really get any punch from ginsenosides is to use a combination of inhibitors and bioavailability enhancing techniques. Otherwise its just not going to work well. This is why we use cyclodextrins and BioX to increase the bioavailability while reducing the rate at which its metabolized and eliminated.

And I got news for you. Its DEFININTELY not gonna do anything at 5mg like senactive suggests.

Its the same with Astragin....yah..sure the 25-50mg of astragin is now some universal bioavailability enhancing agent.
If you guys believe this I have some land in Alaska for sale.

Those guys are pulling the wool over everyones eyes.
 
brundel said:
Honestly I think that company is bullsh.T.
All of their products use absurdly low doses of compounds that in some cases have extremely poor oral bioavailability.
In addition much of the research is done in pitri dishes and is performed and funded by the company selling the products. Same researchers are often responsible for the research and publishing and the results often conflict with other data points.

For example other research into Rg1 uses between 5 and 1500mg/kg. Not mg, mg/kg. And even then oral bioavailability is very poor. 5 mg orally is basically inert as far as Im concerned. Even if you do absorb it its half life is like 25min. And its rapidly eliminated from the body. The only way to really get any punch from ginsenosides is to use a combination of inhibitors and bioavailability enhancing techniques. Otherwise its just not going to work well. This is why we use cyclodextrins and BioX to increase the bioavailability while reducing the rate at which its metabolized and eliminated.

And I got news for you. Its DEFININTELY not gonna do anything at 5mg like senactive suggests.

Its the same with Astragin....yah..sure the 25-50mg of astragin is now some universal bioavailability enhancing agent.
If you guys believe this I have some land in Alaska for sale.

Those guys are pulling the wool over everyones eyes.
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WORD! yeah NULIV Sciences is saying they improve bioavailability with astragin also via its prebiotic effects, like oh sure you just restructured your gut biome with one 50mg shot and voila that curcumin is gliding right in. so whimsical.
 
brundel said:
Also we are always testing new stuff. We need some testers if anyone is interested.
But we test very strictly. Meaning we would expect you to adhere to testing protocol, dosing etc during the test. And to document all pertinent data as we use this data to decide if ingredients are viable or not.
Have a bunch of good stuff on deck.
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I’ve got vector and follidrone I’m running, now but would be interested l in trying testing out some new products for sure.
 
anybody ever use anything along the lines of Ginselect or ginseng phytosomes? the one product i see like that has a 50mg dose; dont get me wrong, i would take 10 pills no problem, im just unwilling to take in the pretty enormous unspecified amount of inactive ingredients, Im reading there are about 30 ginsenosides; could some of them improve adrenal function? some user reviews of gs15-4 indicate they are using it as a stimulant up to 1200mg and getting predictable 3-4 hour energy from it. my interest here is a non-cortisol induced energy boost
 
thescience said:
anybody ever use anything along the lines of Ginselect or ginseng phytosomes? the one product i see like that has a 50mg dose; dont get me wrong, i would take 10 pills no problem, im just unwilling to take in the pretty enormous unspecified amount of inactive ingredients, Im reading there are about 30 ginsenosides; could some of them improve adrenal function? some user reviews of gs15-4 indicate they are using it as a stimulant up to 1200mg and getting predictable 3-4 hour energy from it. my interest here is a non-cortisol induced energy boost
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If a phytosome is dosed at 50mg then there is likely only about 15mg actual ginseng there yah there are alot of ginsenosides as well as other compounds in ginseng. Ive never tried the gs15 but at least 1200mg is more likely to have an effect. I know there are some ginsenosides that are generally only present after fermentation. Fermented korean red ginseng for example.
Keeping in mind they used approx 700-2100mg here.
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brundel said:
If a phytosome is dosed at 50mg then there is likely only about 15mg actual ginseng there yah there are alot of ginsenosides as well as other compounds in ginseng. Ive never tried the gs15 but at least 1200mg is more likely to have an effect. I know there are some ginsenosides that are generally only present after fermentation. Fermented korean red ginseng for example.
Keeping in mind they used approx 700-2100mg here.
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ive seen a phytosome formula claiming 37% ginsenosides; not sure if it is 37% of the whole phyto formulation, or it isnt strickly ginsenosides and choline. the author of this study concluded that ginseng improves energy by increasing stress hormone receptors: Invalid Link Removed
 
thescience said:
ive seen a phytosome formula claiming 37% ginsenosides; not sure if it is 37% of the whole phyto formulation, or it isnt strickly ginsenosides and choline. the author of this study concluded that ginseng improves energy by increasing stress hormone receptors: Invalid Link Removed
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Well here is the thing....Unless its 99% pure ginsenosides its unlikely that's the case. Here is why. Also some interesting information for people reading. Phytosomes, also called phyto-phospholipid complexes, are the vesicular systems formed by the interaction between hydrophilic parts of phospholipids and the phyto-active components resulting in the formation of hydrogen bonds between them. Not to be confused with Liposomes. Liposomes are small artificial vesicles of spherical shape that can be created from cholesterol and natural non-toxic phospholipids.. Another way to look at in laymens terms is a phytosome contains the active within the lipid membrane and the liposome is sort of a Ball of active within a ball of lipid. SeeFig1.
Generally speaking the ABSOLUTE min ratio would be 1:1 Phospholipid to active but frequently this is more like 1:2 or 1:3 with the 3 being Phospholipid and the 1 being the active. So 37% is a strange ratio. It would almost certainly have to be a whole plant extract. My guess is it may be 37% ginseng but not ginsenosides.
Fig1.
232922
 
yeah enzymatic therapy has 1 part ginseng with 37% ginsenosides bound to two parts choline. id probably need about 20 pills, with more benefits very probable at higher dosages.
 
thescience said:
yeah enzymatic therapy has 1 part ginseng with 37% ginsenosides bound to two parts choline. id probably need about 20 pills, with more benefits very probable at higher dosages.
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Ok so that makes more sense. 37% ginsenoside extract in a phytosome. Do you by chance have that full paper?
 
brundel said:
Ok so that makes more sense. 37% ginsenoside extract in a phytosome. Do you by chance have that full paper?
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it's what the label claims. reminds me of the old days when every conceivable supplement company provided the smallest imaginable dose and if a 2x more bioavailable form came out, 1/2 the dose was provided. heres a link to the label where it isnt being sold anymore:

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brundel said:
Well here is the thing....Unless its 99% pure ginsenosides its unlikely that's the case. Here is why. Also some interesting information for people reading. Phytosomes, also called phyto-phospholipid complexes, are the vesicular systems formed by the interaction between hydrophilic parts of phospholipids and the phyto-active components resulting in the formation of hydrogen bonds between them. Not to be confused with Liposomes. Liposomes are small artificial vesicles of spherical shape that can be created from cholesterol and natural non-toxic phospholipids.. Another way to look at in laymens terms is a phytosome contains the active within the lipid membrane and the liposome is sort of a Ball of active within a ball of lipid. SeeFig1.
Generally speaking the ABSOLUTE min ratio would be 1:1 Phospholipid to active but frequently this is more like 1:2 or 1:3 with the 3 being Phospholipid and the 1 being the active. So 37% is a strange ratio. It would almost certainly have to be a whole plant extract. My guess is it may be 37% ginseng but not ginsenosides.
Fig1.
View attachment 232922
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has anyone ever seen a legit liposomal product outside of livon labs? once tried to make some liposomal pantethine using a jewelry cleaner
 
thescience said:
it's what the label claims. reminds me of the old days when every conceivable supplement company provided the smallest imaginable dose and if a 2x more bioavailable form came out, 1/2 the dose was provided. heres a link to the label where it isnt being sold anymore:

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Oh yeah, you’d see that with herbal extracts all the time. “We found a way to get twice as much active out of this!!!!!”



“Also it’s 1/2 dosed”
 
thescience said:
it's what the label claims. reminds me of the old days when every conceivable supplement company provided the smallest imaginable dose and if a 2x more bioavailable form came out, 1/2 the dose was provided. heres a link to the label where it isnt being sold anymore:

Invalid Link Removed
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Yah so according to the label that is a 37.5%. Meaning for every 100mg Ginseng there is 37.5mg ginsenosides. 40% is a general extract that is extremely common.
But its in a phytosome and they dont disclose how much is lipid and how much is extract but lets conservatively assume 1:2.
This means there is 6mg ginsenosides.
 
For reference Androgin is stronger by nearly 40x. Actual ginsenoside content. And has cyclodextrin complex and Biox which is going to drastically improve bioavailability even beyond the phytosome.
And LOL the supplement you linked is 400$
Has to be a typo.
 
brundel said:
For reference Androgin is stronger by nearly 40x. Actual ginsenoside content. And has cyclodextrin complex and Biox which is going to drastically improve bioavailability even beyond the phytosome.
And LOL the supplement you linked is 400$
Has to be a typo.
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wow. yeah no there's defiitely no practical way to make Enzymatic Therapy work here, even at the $16 pricetag; I just didnt see how it's an apple to apple comparison; my understanding of Androgin is that it contains a select number of ginsenosides that have demonstated bodybuilding benefit, wheras your typical ginseng extract would have the full spectrum of the 30+ ginsenosides. In my case, i was messing around with a supplement that has a million ingredients, one of which is a 70% ginsenoside extract with some piperine. i experience a rare kind of energy from it and discontinued it in order to isolate where it was coming from. I cant really accept the "it was the combo of ingredients" explanation. the only two i havent worked with alone are Eucommia Ulmoides and the full spectrum ginseng.
 
Eucommia Ulmoides looks interesting..
I think it would be a killer combo with Androgin since they are both androgenic.
 
Ziyo said:
Eucommia Ulmoides looks interesting..
I think it would be a killer combo with Androgin since they are both androgenic.
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It is interesting but I think there are better options. It can be pretty estrogenic. We tested a potent extract a few years ago and 2 of the 5 testers got wicked gyno.
 
brundel said:
It is interesting but I think there are better options. It can be pretty estrogenic. We tested a potent extract a few years ago and 2 of the 5 testers got wicked gyno.
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jesus. officially withdrawing all interest in beta testing. dont some previous PED users get gyno if the wind blows though? ive seen comments describing "gyno flare ups" where it;s like they have a lifelong condition or something
 
thescience said:
jesus. officially withdrawing all interest in beta testing. dont some previous PED users get gyno if the wind blows though? ive seen comments describing "gyno flare ups" where it;s like they have a lifelong condition or something
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Lol we wont be testing any ucommia extracts. Some people are very sensitive yes but thats the thing if it gave 40% of our testers gyno thats problematic. The other thing is I know we can achieve the same anabolic effects without the estrogenic. Maybe we can test the theory.
 
I wish there was more work done in Amento. Got to catch up on all the Berberine now.
 
brundel said:
Lol we wont be testing any ucommia extracts. Some people are very sensitive yes but thats the thing if it gave 40% of our testers gyno thats problematic. The other thing is I know we can achieve the same anabolic effects without the estrogenic. Maybe we can test the theory.
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Haha I have a new and profound respect for beta-testers, even though they always seem to be on a calory deficit when i want to know how strong a product has made them. Some company called Blackstone labs sells ucomma with what looks like choline and cyclodextrin simply tossed into the mix; i wonder if they inadvertently saved us all by not putting together a legit delivery system.
 
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