Introduction and First Cycle

[Kafka Tamura]

Hi Everyone,

My name is Kafka. I am 34 and have been working out for about 14 years with some breaks in between. I've been hitting it pretty hard the past 4 years since I hit 30, using a PPLPPL routine (working out with weights 6 days a week with 1 off). I also do a little cardio 3x a week. I am 5'8 at 180lbs with probably 10% (guessing) body fat and have spent the past few weeks starting on a bulk. In the past few years I have also changed my diet significantly, premake all of my own food and keep a rough estimate of my caloric/protein/etc intake per day. This past year I have been on TRT as my test levels dropped significantly, starting with 100mg Test C split into two doses per week, with 500iu of HGC split into two doses per week. Over the past year I have slowly increased, and have been on 200mg of Test C for the past 3 months, split into two doses per week. I have made a lot of great progress the past few years, and some pretty good progress with TRT. So far, I and am really happy with the results. However, doing a cycle is something I have thought about for years and I think I'm ready. So I just wanted to post to a) briefly introduce myself, and b) post my cycle and see what you guys think.

I will be starting January 1, 2023 with 400mg Test E split into three doses per week for 12 weeks. I plan on still using HCG at the same frequency as my dose stated above during this time. I am in the process of getting anastrozole to have on hand if needed, and should have that secured by the time I get this cycle up and going -- but hoping with this dose I will not need it. My understanding that is injecting three rather than two times a week would lead to more stable bloods, test, as well as e2. I'll be taking in between 3,500 - 4,000 calories per day. No PCT because I will return to my TRT dose (maybe even a little lower than 200mg) upon completion of the cycle. I did not want to start with 500mg or higher because I was thinking the lowest dose to get some good results would be best (and mine have been decent on 200mg). Additionally, this is my first actual cycle and I figured lower would be better.

I got my bloods taken today to see where everything is at but last I checked my test level was around 700. I'll have some more info when I get my latest blood results back.

I just wanted to know what you guys think?
Would anyone go lower than that -- perhaps 300 or 350 to start?
Would anyone go higher than that -- perhaps 500mg to get the most out of it?
Is this too simple for a starter cycle?

Thanks so much for any feedback and it's awesome to be here and make my first post.

Best, Kafka

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[Mikereyn513]

Welcome Kafka thank you for the detailed introduction the bros on here will tell you we hardly ever get that. Its also very nice to see you've done everything perfectly. This first cycle sounds great! Your first one should always be test only because yiu need to find your upper limit without needing an A.i. before you try anything else because test will always be the base of every cycle from here on out. I like the idea of starting at 400 scince your already on a trt dose of 200. Yiu should get fantastic results since your doubling your dose of test. If the cycle goes well I would consider going up to 500 st about week 6 especially if results begin to stall. I personally can get up to about 750mg of test without an A.i. obviously you want yours on hand so if you begin to feel or see any high estro symptoms yiu can start that and then you'll know what your upper limit is.

 

[Kafka Tamura]

Welcome Kafka thank you for the detailed introduction the bros on here will tell you we hardly ever get that. Its also very nice to see you've done everything perfectly. This first cycle sounds great! Your first one should always be test only because yiu need to find your upper limit without needing an A.i. before you try anything else because test will always be the base of every cycle from here on out. I like the idea of starting at 400 scince your already on a trt dose of 200. Yiu should get fantastic results since your doubling your dose of test. If the cycle goes well I would consider going up to 500 st about week 6 especially if results begin to stall. I personally can get up to about 750mg of test without an A.i. obviously you want yours on hand so if you begin to feel or see any high estro symptoms yiu can start that and then you'll know what your upper limit is.

Mike, thanks so much for the reply! I'll stick to the 400mg/week and see how it goes -- and consider upping the dose if progress begins to stall. I've had no issues with e2 on the 200mg/week so I'm hoping for no AI with the 400, but as research has proven, that number is different for everyone. I'll post an update in the coming weeks and let you all know how it's going.

 

[Hyde]

Let us know your total test and e2 on the current dose of 200/wk if you get them.

Doubling your total dose is usually a good recipe for results, so going to 400 makes sense to me. It won’t be as dramatic as someone natty jumping on 400, but you should see obvious improvements over the next 3-4 months with training & diet in line for sure.

 

[Kafka Tamura]

Let us know your total test and e2 on the current dose of 200/wk if you get them.

Doubling your total dose is usually a good recipe for results, so going to 400 makes sense to me. It won’t be as dramatic as someone natty jumping on 400, but you should see obvious improvements over the next 3-4 months with training & diet in line for sure.

Hey Hyde! I much appreciate your input. My total test is 720. I was expecting it to be closer to the 900-1000 range on 200mg/week -- but maybe I am just a low responder. Nonetheless, I feel pretty good which most of this journey is about. My e2 is at 27 so I do think there is room to increase without the high estrogen sides. Just wondering in your (or anyones) anecdotal experience if doubling the amount significantly raised e2? That is, would e2 typically double if your test dose doubles? My provider stated thyroid and PSA look good and are within range but I do not have those numbers on me at the moment.

 

[Mikereyn513]

Hey Hyde! I much appreciate your input. My total test is 720. I was expecting it to be closer to the 900-1000 range on 200mg/week -- but maybe I am just a low responder. Nonetheless, I feel pretty good which most of this journey is about. My e2 is at 27 so I do think there is room to increase without the high estrogen sides. Just wondering in your (or anyones) anecdotal experience if doubling the amount significantly raised e2? That is, would e2 typically double if your test dose doubles? My provider stated thyroid and PSA look good and are within range but I do not have those numbers on me at the moment.

Your E2 may not double scince test is doubled again like you said everyone is different and always remember we don't treat numbers we treat sides. There's guys who's E2 can go above 250 with no sides!!! Now at that number I'd be worried about blood clots and things but again if there's no sides abd you're not in pre-comp then it's all good. I just know if mine were that high I'd go from a sex craved strong man to a pre menstrual teenager lol

 

[Hyde]

Yeah I would definitely double it. You very likely could still get away without an AI - 700/30 is a good ratio/ranges.

 

[UnrealMachine]

Kafka, congrats on being in the top 1% of first time users for dedication and diligence (no sarsasm), it’s refreshing to see.
yes if anything you may find 400mg “boring” so the step up makes sense but don’t feel obligated to do so. Most people would use the base to layer another compound but since you’re patient it’s hardly necessary. Getting solid “data points” and bloodwork for solo test run is one of the most responsible and methodical things you could do.

 

[Kafka Tamura]

Your E2 may not double scince test is doubled again like you said everyone is different and always remember we don't treat numbers we treat sides. There's guys who's E2 can go above 250 with no sides!!! Now at that number I'd be worried about blood clots and things but again if there's no sides abd you're not in pre-comp then it's all good. I just know if mine were that high I'd go from a sex craved strong man to a pre menstrual teenager lol

This is great to know!

 

[Kafka Tamura]

Yeah I would definitely double it. You very likely could still get away without an AI - 700/30 is a good ratio/ranges.

Awesome! I'm looking forward to getting this up and going.

 

[Kafka Tamura]

Kafka, congrats on being in the top 1% of first time users for dedication and diligence (no sarsasm), it’s refreshing to see.
yes if anything you may find 400mg “boring” so the step up makes sense but don’t feel obligated to do so. Most people would use the base to layer another compound but since you’re patient it’s hardly necessary. Getting solid “data points” and bloodwork for solo test run is one of the most responsible and methodical things you could do.

Unreal, I definitely was wondering how much I'd see out of this given that I'm already on 200mg. But I'll take a little boring on the first one before adding others down the road. Thanks for taking the time to reply -- I'll be monitoring bloodwork throughout.

 

[Kafka Tamura]

Hey everyone,

I am on week 5 of this cycle and just wanted to post an update. So far I've gained about 6-8lbs (accounting that weight fluctuation may be due to water retention). I have not had any noticeable e2 sides but I am getting bloodwork next week to see where I am at with everything. Also, not using any AI until if and when that time comes. I've noticed lifts and endurance go up, but nothing crazy. I definitely feel like I can push it harder for a little bit longer. I've stuck to 4000 calories a day minimum with some days getting up to 5000. I've also been very consistent with lifting 6 days a week. Lack of sleep is my biggest hurdle, which it always has been.

Overall I am pretty happy with how things are going, and I am wondering how the next few weeks will go as far as gaining, lifts, and potential e2 sides. I've read that some people don't notice any real big changes until the 5-6 week mark -- so interested to see if I fall into that category. I'll check in again when this cycle is done and do a detailed write up. Thanks for all of those who have weighed in!

 

[UnrealMachine]

Keep it up
Slow, steady, and consistent

I’d be tempted in your shoes to add a compound like MK677 or a peptide to boost your IGF it would be a minor addition with slow but steady effects and good synergy with test

but you’re running a finely tuned machine making progress so no need to complicate the system get your bloods figured out and worry about other goodies later

 

[Smont]

How did I miss this, it's so nice to see someone actually do **** the right way

 

[Smont]

I'm genuinely excited to see the rest of this play out

 

[Mikereyn513]

Yea this one's actually about to get real good

 

[Kafka Tamura]

Keep it up
Slow, steady, and consistent

I’d be tempted in your shoes to add a compound like MK677 or a peptide to boost your IGF it would be a minor addition with slow but steady effects and good synergy with test

but you’re running a finely tuned machine making progress so no need to complicate the system get your bloods figured out and worry about other goodies later

Unreal,
I had not thought about adding anything else at this point but after you mentioning it I did a little research on MK677 (I had no prior knowledge of this). It looks like people have had some pretty good results. If bloods are all good do you think this could be a good addition to the final...say 8 weeks of this cycle? I'm definitely interested and have been researching. Thanks for your response.

 

[Kafka Tamura]

I'm genuinely excited to see the rest of this play out

Thank you bro!

 

[Mikereyn513]

Unreal,
I had not thought about adding anything else at this point but after you mentioning it I did a little research on MK677 (I had no prior knowledge of this). It looks like people have had some pretty good results. If bloods are all good do you think this could be a good additional to the final...say 8 weeks of this cycle? I'm definitely interested and have been researching. Thanks for your response.

Absolutely that would be a perfect addition!!!

 

[UnrealMachine]

Absolutely that would be a perfect addition!!!

Yeah and you can run it past the end of the blast dose, if you’re enjoying it you can run it for months… watch out for edema and blood pressure while it’s kicking in or dosed higher

 

[Kafka Tamura]

Hey everyone,

I was going to wait to discuss dosing etc. until my final write up -- but I ended up running 500mg/week since the start. I was back and forth whether to do this or 400mg/week, but I just decided to go for 500mg/week from the outset. I haven't changed this dose since the start.

I did bloodwork yesterday 2/8, two days after my last injection and my T levels were 1934. I did this through a private lab rather than my clinic as this (obviously) is going outside the scope of my protocol. In retrospect, I should have paid the extra money and done a more comprehensive test that would include free T and e2, as I am unsure what those numbers currently are. However, I figured this would be good to get a baseline of my T levels, and I am also having no signs so far of e2 issues.

I do think this number is a bit low compared to others' levels that are taking the same amount. I don't think my T is under dosed as I tested it confirming it was legit, which also included a quantitative test that showed it was at 200mg+ (mine is dosed at 250). I guess there is a possibility as these tests are not always 100% accurate. But given my T levels were at 700 on 200mg/week, I think I may just be a low responder (this was ultimately the reason I ended up going with 500mg/week rather than 400mg/week).

Anyway, I can't complain because I have been getting good results and also establishing how my body handles this dose of Test. Maybe I'll do a comprehensive test in a few more weeks. It seems like a rule of thumb is to not increase your dose during the cycle which I have stuck to -- and honestly I was hesitant to run a 500mg/week on my first go but things have worked well this far. Any thoughts on where to go from here? Just keep pushing with what I am doing? Thank you guys!

 

[UnrealMachine]

“If it ain’t broke don’t fix it”
For now anyway

 

[Kafka Tamura]

“If it ain’t broke don’t fix it”
For now anyway

I'll stay where I'm at and keep it consistent. I appreciate your input, Unreal.

 

[Hyde]

Given your situation, everything presented, it’s probable that you metabolize testosterone out faster than average. While you could raise your dose, if that is so you might be better served adding another compound vs raising something you’ve seen with worse returns.

Now could be a great time to add in Mk677 like you said. The fact you aren’t using an AI means estrogen is certainly elevated (which is great if it’s not causing gyno or excessive water retention/bp increases). That’s a great environment to convert HGH to IGF1 and push growth through another pathway instead of just raising androgens.

What I would do is add Mk677 at 10-20mg nightly (10-15mg is best bang for buck by far) and see how you respond. It is great for recovery, but taken in the morning for me it increases lethargy and (initially) hunger, which could be a positive if you struggle with getting your nutrition in.

I stayed on Mk677 while otherwise not using any PEDs, and being fatter I had higher estrogen. This wasn’t an issue until Mk677, but in the presence of that estrogen I also grew some new gyno tissue on one side. So listen to your body and discontinue if you begin to feel sensitivity. P5P could be a solution as it would be from elevation of prolactin, but still discontinue while you get things happy again if you tried it.

 

[Kafka Tamura]

Given your situation, everything presented, it’s probable that you metabolize testosterone out faster than average. While you could raise your dose, if that is so you might be better served adding another compound vs raising something you’ve seen with worse returns.

Now could be a great time to add in Mk677 like you said. The fact you aren’t using an AI means estrogen is certainly elevated (which is great if it’s not causing gyno or excessive water retention/bp increases). That’s a great environment to convert HGH to IGF1 and push growth through another pathway instead of just raising androgens.

What I would do is add Mk677 at 10-20mg nightly (10-15mg is best bang for buck by far) and see how you respond. It is great for recovery, but taken in the morning for me it increases lethargy and (initially) hunger, which could be a positive if you struggle with getting your nutrition in.

I stayed on Mk677 while otherwise not using any PEDs, and being fatter I had higher estrogen. This wasn’t an issue until Mk677, but in the presence of that estrogen I also grew some new gyno tissue on one side. So listen to your body and discontinue if you begin to feel sensitivity. P5P could be a solution as it would be from elevation of prolactin, but still discontinue while you get things happy again if you tried it.

Hyde,

Thanks for the write up. I'm going to pull the trigger on the Mk677 -- from what I've read, chemyo has pretty good reviews. I think I'll stick to the lower side (10mg nightly). If I'm understanding correctly, adding this even at a lower dose could increase the risk of e2 issues if e2 is already elevated due to BF OR as a result of the cycle being run.

I have the AI on standby just in case. As a sidenote -- I check my BP pretty regularly (no past history of BP issues) but have been a little more diligent about it since running this. I haven't noticed an elevation from my baseline so far. Much appreciated my friend!

 

[Hyde]

Hyde,

Thanks for the write up. I'm going to pull the trigger on the Mk677 -- from what I've read, chemyo has pretty good reviews. I think I'll stick to the lower side (10mg nightly). If I'm understanding correctly, adding this even at a lower dose could increase the risk of e2 issues if e2 is already elevated due to BF OR as a result of the cycle being run.

I have the AI on standby just in case. As a sidenote -- I check my BP pretty regularly (no past history of BP issues) but have been a little more diligent about it since running this. I haven't noticed an elevation from my baseline so far. Much appreciated my friend!

For me, it’s elevates BP some, especially at 25mg. Using only 10mg gets the lions share of the GH increase (it’s a great trade off, like 80% of the potential of 30mg) while definitely reducing side effects like water retention and the subsequent BP increase.

It actually can raise prolactin in the presence of sufficiently high estrogen. This can be combatted by using sufficient doses of P5P to lower prolactin, OR by lowering estrogen via your AI. However, if you lower estrogen then your GH will not be converting to IGF1 nearly as much, disabling most of the anabolic effect Mk677 could offer. So if you get irritation, start taking P5P right away (1-400mg once-twice/day) OR discontinue the Mk677 and probably also take a dose of AI to help lower estrogen temporarily while things resolve.

 

[Kafka Tamura]

For me, it’s elevates BP some, especially at 25mg. Using only 10mg gets the lions share of the GH increase (it’s a great trade off, like 80% of the potential of 30mg) while definitely reducing side effects like water retention and the subsequent BP increase.

It actually can raise prolactin in the presence of sufficiently high estrogen. This can be combatted by using sufficient doses of P5P to lower prolactin, OR by lowering estrogen via your AI. However, if you lower estrogen then your GH will not be converting to IGF1 nearly as much, disabling most of the anabolic effect Mk677 could offer. So if you get irritation, start taking P5P right away (1-400mg once-twice/day) OR discontinue the Mk677 and probably also take a dose of AI to help lower estrogen temporarily while things resolve.

Hyde, I appreciate all the info and this sounds like a great addition! I went back and forth with this and did some more research over the past few days, but the lethargy and the potential issues you stated above is a little more than I can risk right now. I'm definitely going to keep this in mind if and when a future cycle is in play and I have a little bit less going on with work/personal life. I'm still getting great results and am just going to ride out what I've been doing. Thanks man!

 

[Kafka Tamura]

Hey everyone, midway through week 8 of this 12 week cycle. All is still well and I've been consistently getting stronger in the gym. My BW has stayed at 185 (starting weight was 177) and I've noticed I haven't been gaining weight the past few weeks. I'm pretty good at keeping the calories at 4k and those are for the most part clean, and on some days I'm able to get 5k in. I was hoping to hit BW of 190 at a minimum on this cycle. Has anyone ran into this? I'm thinking I am just burning a lot of cals and possibly need to eat even more. A lot of my shirts aren't fitting well and notice my pants getting tighter except for the waist area so I am sure the increase in size is there. Would you focus less on the scale or up the calories?

 

[Hyde]

Hey everyone, midway through week 8 of this 12 week cycle. All is still well and I've been consistently getting stronger in the gym. My BW has stayed at 185 (starting weight was 177) and I've noticed I haven't been gaining weight the past few weeks. I'm pretty good at keeping the calories at 4k and those are for the most part clean, and on some days I'm able to get 5k in. I was hoping to hit BW of 190 at a minimum on this cycle. Has anyone ran into this? I'm thinking I am just burning a lot of cals and possibly need to eat even more. A lot of my shirts aren't fitting well and notice my pants getting tighter except for the waist area so I am sure the increase in size is there. Would you focus less on the scale or up the calories?

I would raise calories if the intention is to continue to gain size. If you’re consistently taking in 4k, I would add another 500. That’s theoretically enough for about 1lb per week, and at this point there shouldn’t really be any new water weight from the cycle, so if you are gaining much faster than that you would probably slapping on a lot of fat.

You have added new muscle and your metabolism has accommodated, so now you’re likely just eating to maintain.

 

[Mikereyn513]

Agree with @Hyde In this one. It's another reason guys lose everything after they get off..they stop eating the same as when they were on. So if you're not eating to maintain that newly gained muscle and you go back to how you were eating pre cycle you're going to lose it all. I believe you hit maintenance at your current wait so up it 500 calories and check the scale in 2 weeks

 

[UnrealMachine]

I also use strength to help determine the quality of acquired mass. Given that you’ve been getting stronger, you can be confident that you’re putting on LBM and increase calorie’s accordingly.

 

[Kafka Tamura]

Hey everyone,

I'm closing in on week 12 (last week) of my cycle. I wanted to do a final writeup, as promised. I'm currently weighing in at 190lbs up from my starting weight which was 177lbs, and have never felt stronger. All of my big lifts went up which I'm really happy about. For example, I was benching 315 as my 1RM but now hitting it for some reps. Adding an extra 500 calories + was spot on as recommended by you all, and took me from 185lbs to 190lbs. So 4k calories at 185 became my maintenance, and 4.5 - 5k was getting me the extra size. I was consistent about the injections and times that I took them. Also, I never missed a day in the gym and continued my PPLPPL (sunday rest) routine. One thing I noticed that got me great results was dropping down the weight on my bigger lifts. So spending one day just working at 225lbs on bench or squats for example and increasing the reps, with time under tension. I'd still have my heavy days but I swear I got more out of the lighter ones with time under tension. I was overall really happy with this cycle and sad to end it because I'm still making progress, gaining size, and getting stronger. But I guess all good things must come to an end.

I always like to look at where I could have done better, so I will note that too. I wish I was at a point in my life where I could get regular quality sleep. But due to my work schedule, 5 hours a night is not unheard of -- and sometimes that has been less. I do think that this is something that potentially held me back a little bit more, because my sleep just wasn't there as it should have been, and going into the gym some days was a bit of a struggle. This undoubtedly affected my recovery time.

In my original post, I wanted to start with 400mg/week. I decided to go with 500/mg a week. Would 400 have had the same effect or been more responsible? Maybe. I don't really consider 500mg/week to be a total beginner cycle, but I had some experience with test up to 200mg/week and just went for it. I'm fortunate that I did not have to use an AI and had no E2 issues. Now I'll take some time at my 200mg/week trt dose and hope I can keep what I've gained. As I knew this wouldn't be my first and last, I'm also going to look and see what I would want to do for my next cycle.

I wanted to conclude by thanking all of you for your help and comments before I started, and in between the cycle. It is much appreciated from a beginner like me. You guys are awesome!

 

[Hyde]

Really happy to hear you had such a positive successful experience! Best of luck

 

[Mikereyn513]

Hey @Kafka Tamura thats awesome bro!! I'm glad everything worked out. This is a really great forum, all these guys have helped me get through a lot if things both inside and outside of the gym and I will forever be grateful to them for it. The only thing I can recommend now is to remind you that you have new maintenance calorie number. That's where obe seen a lot of beginners fail is they go back to eating how they were before the cycle and as I think you know that doesn't work. You have to ear more to maintain the new weight you've put on. And the next cycle you're going to have to eat even more. This is where discipline comes in.
As far as the next compound to add nandrolone is usually what most guys go for whether that's deca or npp you'd have to do research and see what's best for you. Masteron may be something to look into as well. Some guys like eq the only thing with that is it's a testosterone derivative and I think the best idea would be to add either a dht derivative or 19 nor derivative ( other than tren)

 

[Kafka Tamura]

Really happy to hear you had such a positive successful experience! Best of luck

Thanks Hyde!

 

[Kafka Tamura]

Hey @Kafka Tamura thats awesome bro!! I'm glad everything worked out. This is a really great forum, all these guys have helped me get through a lot if things both inside and outside of the gym and I will forever be grateful to them for it. The only thing I can recommend now is to remind you that you have new maintenance calorie number. That's where obe seen a lot of beginners fail is they go back to eating how they were before the cycle and as I think you know that doesn't work. You have to ear more to maintain the new weight you've put on. And the next cycle you're going to have to eat even more. This is where discipline comes in.
As far as the next compound to add nandrolone is usually what most guys go for whether that's deca or npp you'd have to do research and see what's best for you. Masteron may be something to look into as well. Some guys like eq the only thing with that is it's a testosterone derivative and I think the best idea would be to add either a dht derivative or 19 nor derivative ( other than tren)

Thank you Mike, I'm definitely going to keep up with the calories. I have to say eating is the hardest part. And yea, I was thinking of adding nandrolone on the next go around.