mrhankey87
Member
I currently cannot find one single store in Europe that has CEL Super Swole or MPA Celluvol in stock (these were my go tos), so I need alternatives. Thank you 
Best stim-free pre workout?
- Thread starter mrhankey87
- Start date
Iwilleattuna
Well-known member
Beet root extract 2-3grams and glycerin 1-2 tbls is a cheap option for you
LeanEngineer
Legend
High Volume by PES would be one of my top choices for non stim pre workouts for sure (https://www.strongsupplementshop.com/high-volume-by-pescience)
BCseacow83
Well-known member
I like animal pump pro:
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I will be using this shortly and it looks fantastic: VL Daft Pump
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SNS Vaso Force Rush it DOES have stims but the pump only version has the same pump complex sans the stims so it should only work better for pumps without the stims.
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Regardless of what preworkout product people use 99% would benefit from tossing 25g or more carbohydrate and 1-2g of Real Salt into their pre and 20+g glycerol as iwilleattuna pointed out. There are other pump pre's that are good but these come to mind off the top of my head.
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I will be using this shortly and it looks fantastic: VL Daft Pump
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SNS Vaso Force Rush it DOES have stims but the pump only version has the same pump complex sans the stims so it should only work better for pumps without the stims.
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Regardless of what preworkout product people use 99% would benefit from tossing 25g or more carbohydrate and 1-2g of Real Salt into their pre and 20+g glycerol as iwilleattuna pointed out. There are other pump pre's that are good but these come to mind off the top of my head.
GQdaLEGEND
Legend
I currently cannot find one single store in Europe that has CEL Super Swole or MPA Celluvol in stock (these were my go tos), so I need alternatives. Thank you
CEL super swole is being reworked on and has been couple delays due to the virus
My favorite options - SNS vaso force and also Daft pump as stated above
Tunaking14
Well-known member
Tunaking14
Well-known member
I also love adding Triton at 1.5 ml 30-45 minutes prior to training!
sns8778
Board Sponsor
I currently cannot find one single store in Europe that has CEL Super Swole or MPA Celluvol in stock (these were my go tos), so I need alternatives. Thank you
We have been working on reformulating Super Swole for awhile now. The original formula contained GlycerPump which I like, but that led to some clumping and complaints from retailers as customers that didn't understand that GlycerPump just unfortunately is prone to clumping so we reworked the formula. We thought we would have had it out earlier in the year - we had flavor samples finalized and then we ran into major delays with the cm we were using at the time bc industry lead times have gotten awful on flavored powders. We are now working on flavor samples with a different cm and hope to have it available soon. It contains VASO6 which makes it hard to flavor; we had considered changing it out for Nitrosigine to make it easier to flavor and taste better and get it back out faster.
VasoForce XT is a great stimulant free pump option, especially for those that want the convenience of capsules.
Here is a link to the full write up:
https://seriousnutritionsolutions.com/product/vasoforce-xt-120-capsules/
Then there is a VasoForce Rush version for those that want a stimulant pre-workout version of it.
Also, Daft Pump looks great as well. I don't think its available in the EU yet but ZOO mentioned that he would be doing international shipping soon.
https://seriousnutritionsolutions.com/product/vasoforce-xt-120-capsules/
We will also have some more cool options coming out in the next few months as well.
GQdaLEGEND
Legend
Disagree .. all those do make a difference without stims.
mrhankey87
Member
I’m hypersensitive to stimulants so I just can’t have them
GQdaLEGEND
Legend
search any of the ingredient that you mentioned .. im sure you will find numerous studies on it
these people who study the ingredients dont just do it for fun or to push products .. most of these are done by govt and thats how FDA can track what is legal or should be illegal
Selective Inhibition of Inducible Nitric Oxide Synthase by Agmatine
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The pharmacological importance of agmatine in the brain
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^ theres 33 citation just on agmatine alone
Again you can def say that some stuff doesnt work for you .. but to say that the ingredients dont work at all ..cmon
im not a fan of arginine but i understand some love it
but ill be damned if someone talks about my beloved agmatine lol
sns8778
Board Sponsor
The definition of a pre-workout can be different to different people.
- For many people, its something to help with pumps, performance, endurance, and recovery between sets.
- For some, its all of those benefits + energy (and then some want a lot of energy whereas others only want a little).
- For others, its all of those benefits + an emphasis on mental focus, clarity, and concentration.
There are a lot of people that can't tolerate stims, don't want stims, or train later on at night that stimulant free pre-workouts are a great option for.
For me personally, my pre-workout usually consists of a combination of Focus XT, VasoForce XT, &/or VasoForce Rush.
- Training later at night - Focus XT Caffeine Free + VasoForce XT
- Need a lot of energy - VasoForce Rush
- Need a lot of energy but more focus - Focus XT Stim Version and lower dose of VasoForce Rush or VasoForce Rush + Focus XT Caffeine Free
The reason that I normally use Focus XT as part of my pre-workout regimen is that I have a hard time focusing on my workouts and getting my mind off of the stresses of day to day life. So for me, Focus XT is a very important part of my pre-workout regimen bc it helps me do that.
You mentioned that stimulants are primarily what made pre-workouts popular to begin with - the stimulant pre-workouts might get the most talk, but there is a huge market of stimulant free pre-workouts and originally when pre-workouts first came out, almost all of them were stimulant free. I remember when NO Xplode came out, a lot of people were actually against the idea of stims in a pre-workout. Oh how times have changed haha.
GQdaLEGEND
Legend
for me pump > stim all day 
Tunaking14
Well-known member
You are nothing more than a troll- GTFO with you b.s.!!!! Mods need to kick you out- you trolled the Covid threads now this one. You are scum taking pictures of dead people!
Tunaking14
Well-known member
I wouldn't bother spending your time with this guy- he is nothing more than a negative Nancy troll..............He admitted he took pictures of dead people lined up in the hospital he worked in.......
sns8778
Board Sponsor
Thank you. I wasn't aware of any of that because I stay away from the Covid and political threads on here.
My reply wasn't really to convince him though; more just to illustrate that the term pre-workout, although stereotyped for certain things normally, can actually mean something different to different people.
sns8778
Board Sponsor
I have a serious question for you. I don't know you and haven't been in the Covid thread so I don't pass any judgement on you for anything that may or may not have been mentioned in there. My question is entirely related to this thread.
Anabolic Minds is a supplement forum. The original poster, mrhankey87, asked a legitimate question about some options for stimulant free pre-workouts since Super Swole has been out of stock while being reformulated.
Why enter a supplement thread on a supplement forum just to bash and talk down about supplements?
The original poster asked for options and he even replied in the thread in reply to you that he couldn't take stimulants.
The other people posting in the thread are discussing the things that they take, like, and enjoy.
You're certainly entitled to your own opinions as far as what you like yourself. But why make posts putting down, attacking, a and diminishing things that other people like and enjoy?
You stated your opinion and assumption that there is nothing more to pre-workouts than stimulants. I nicely replied that pre-workouts can mean different things to different people and that there are a lot of people, including myself, that like stimulant free options. There are some people now that even live completely stimulant free lifestyles.
It's of course alright that you state your own opinions and likes, but why try to argue with people that feel differently and diminish their points of view and the things that they like? If a lot of the other people didn't like products like this, there would be no discussion about them and stimulant free pre-workouts wouldn't be one of the major product categories.
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Specific to GQ's post, he has always posted about liking stimulant free pre-workouts.
He replied to your post where you stated that none of x number of ingredients did anything saying that he disagreed and thought that they did. He stated that he prefer pumps over stimulants; so for him, those would be providing a benefit.
You asked him for sources to prove that he felt they did something but you're the one that made the statement that they didn't do anything. He answered in one sentence what he likes about stimulant free pre's - pumps.
But you continue to post things asking him to prove something - but its pretty universally agreed that things like Citrulline, Arginine (for some people), Agmatine, etc. help with pumps. So he covered his end of things by simply saying what he liked.
You're posting negatively towards him asking him to prove something does something when you're the one that said that it didn't without posting any proof on your end. Now for me, I don't care about anyone posting anything to "prove" anything bc I find it a little strange that the debate here seems to be on some of the most universally accepted ingredients out there in this category.
And then you asked him:
Is there anything in the scientific literature showing that citrulline, agmatine, arginine or tyrosine actually adds lean muscle tissue to your frame, subtracts fat from your frame or enhances athletic performance in any way?
He never said that there was (but there are) - he specifically said what he looks for in a pre-workout - pumps. It seems like you're trying to get him to argue a point that he wasn't even trying to make to begin with. This is a personal opinion thread.
All of the ingredients that you mentioned have been shown in studies to promote lean muscle, strength, fat loss, athletic performance, and/or improved body composition in some way. However, most of those studies show these results when they are used daily for periods of time for the body composition benefits. But that doesn't mean that they aren't still beneficial in pre-workouts for those benefits and a lot of people like to use them in a pre-workout for other specific benefits such as pumps, endurance, and improved recovery between sets.
I miss when threads on here could just be cool and fun and people could get along and have positive conversations about supplements. The world is negative enough in everyday life; I hate to see that negativity carry over to here.
sns8778
Board Sponsor
^^^ Oh, and I agree about the Beta Alanine comment. I don't like it in pre-workouts. I either use it daily or don't use it at all - so that I can get used to the tingles when using it daily. But I understand and respect that some people like that.
For me, when I use Beta Alanine, I use our Beta Alanine caps which we make in a 501 capsule size product that is a great value and allows for convenient long term daily use
For me, when I use Beta Alanine, I use our Beta Alanine caps which we make in a 501 capsule size product that is a great value and allows for convenient long term daily use
sns8778
Board Sponsor
The subject of this thread wasn't to debate whether or not a specific supplement or type of supplement worked. It was someone asking for opinions and suggestions for a certain type of supplement.
If you don't like the type of supplement they're asking for opinions on, no problem at all. But why come into the thread to attack or diminish what's being asked and discussed and try to argue with people that do?
And in this case, the original poster answered your question on why he wants a stim free pre-workout - he doesn't take stimulants. And GQ answered your question - he likes the pumps from a pre-workout moreso than stims.
Why would you argue with someone that likes pumps trying to convince them what's the point of pumps? It's their money, their results, and their right to like whatever they do or don't like.
And you're the only person in this thread talking about measuring anything.
For me, I like products that helps with pumps but my primary desire from a pre-workout is usually focus and concentration bc I struggle to get my mind off the stress of day to day life and focus on working out. Can I actually measure that? No. And I don't need to - because its my body, my results, and my workouts. And if it helps me, I don't need to justify how I would measure that to anyone else.
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You went into a supplement thread about a certain type of supplement to put down that type of supplement. To most people, that is going to come off as negative and looking for an argument.
The subject of this thread is literally - Best Stim Free Pre-Workout - and you're in the thread arguing that the energy and feel good effects from stimulants are the main appeal of a pre-workout. But if that were the case for everyone, the thread wouldn't even exist to begin with.
(And btw... I'm not anti-stimulant. I like stims too, I just prefer mine either in the morning or spaced out during the day versus a lot pre-workout).
You're absolutely entitled to your own opinion, but other people are entitled to theirs too without having to argue with you about it.
I'll give you an example - I don't respond to Arginine. A lot of people like Arginine and DiArginine Malate for pumps. And many people love Nitrosigine for pumps. They don't work well for me, but I don't go into threads and diminish the people that do like them or keep saying they don't work - when they obviously work well for many people that use them (just not for me).
Your original post in this thread, and maybe you didn't mean it this way, came off as very negative. I don't know your intentions here - whether it to be learn, help, argue, or troll - and I don't judge you or anything about you. It was mentioned that you were argumentative or whatever in the Covid thread and I avoid those bc I try to avoid the negativity. And it may be a case where the negativity of threads like that may be accidentally carrying over into your posts in other threads. I've had that happen to me on here in the past without realizing it. Like being frustrated about one thread and coming off negatively in another when I absolutely didn't mean to.
I hope that makes sense. And since tone can come off wrong online, I want to verify I'm not trying to be mean or negative to you at all. I want to see everyone be able to be happy, post, enjoy, and have fun here on AM.
Tunaking14
Well-known member
the fact is you came in this thread and pretty much told people that preworkouts don't work- tell you what- go buy a tub of Daft Pump- then go workout and report your results- I can bet you that you'll see and feel noticeable results compared to not taking that product before working out- You did not believe anything anyone posted (threads, articles, scientific data, personal results, etc.) in the other thread about Ivermectin being effective against Covid or about it being safe. The only thing you believed was what the CDC and big Pharma recommends. You disagreed with everyone in that thread no matter the facts that were presented to you. Hey that's your choice. But quit being lazy asking people to post studies of measurable results. Do some research and quit trolling on AM.
sns8778
Board Sponsor
If you're saying that supplements like L-Citrulline, Citrulline Malate, Agmatine, Taurine, Tyrosine, etc. have never been shown in studies to have any body-composition or athletic performance benefits, that isn't stating facts - it's giving inaccurate information; because there are a number of studies on all of them showing that they do have positive athletic performance benefits and body-composition benefits. But that's not even what most people are using them for in pre-workouts to begin with.
They may not provide you the types of benefits that you yourself are personally looking for, but a lot of people like stimulant free pre-workouts for a variety of reasons and that was the subject of this thread.
You're ignoring the fact that different people are looking for different things from a pre-workout. And there's nothing wrong with that, that's why there are different ones and different types of pre-workouts available.
And no, I can assure you that I have a clear view of what people people down is - anything that is insulting, belittling, demeaning, &/or diminishing towards someone else's point of view because it is different than one's own.
When someone posts a thread asking for an alternative to a stimulant free pre-workout that's being reformulated and people are having a positive discussion about stimulant free pre-workout and one enters the thread to tell them they all suck, that's kind of the definition of diminishing other people's point of view. Then when other people state that they like them and the reasons why and one tries to argue with them, that would be as well.
I'm all for anyone expressing their opinions and trying to help others. And I was willing to try to give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't mean your posts in here the way they came off bc I was hoping you didn't. Because they way they came off wasn't you coming into the thread in a positive manner to tell other people about your perceived experiences with stimulant free pre-workouts. It came off as you coming into the thread to tell people they suck and to argue with people that say they like them. Take my Arginine example above as an example - if there was a thread on Arginine and its benefits, I probably wouldn't post in the thread at all bc it doesn't work well for me, but if I did, I would say something like 'Arginine and especially advanced forms of Nitrosigine seem to work well for a lot of people but I don't seem to respond well to them myself' instead of saying 'Arginine sucks, save your money. No form of Arginine has been shown to provide an athletic performance benefit' when that's factually incorrect bc Nitrosigine has some good studies on it.
You keep using the term measurable gains/results.
Most people define the term measurable gain or result as something that they can tell a measurable difference with.
If we're talking study results, a quick google search will show you plenty of results that the ingredients you're saying don't have measurable results on have plenty of clinical studies backing them up.
And if we're talking measurable results in terms of feedback or personal results, then that comes down to individual results, expectations, and what they're looking for. In this case, if people didn't feel like there were measurable results with what they are looking for from stimulant free pre-workouts, there wouldn't be a thread on it to begin with. And it wouldn't be one of the most popular sports nutrition supplement categories.
Here's an example that pertains to stimulants since you keep mentioning stimulants:
If you're looking for energy and DMHA gives you energy, that's a measurable result for you. All it does for me is give me a headache, so that's a negative measurable result for me. So if you like it and I don't, that's okay. You don't have to prove to me that you like it and it works for you. Measurable results in our cases would then be a matter of perception, opinion, and individual results.
I'm not trying to debate you or argue with you. To the reverse, I don't understand to begin with why this thread even took that direction. You don't like stimulant free pre-workouts, cool, no problem. But that doesn't mean there aren't a lot of people that do; so my whole point is why argue with people over something that they themselves like? Especially when the thread was made by someone that does like them asking for suggestions; he didn't ask if people liked them, he does like them and he just wanted suggestions to try.
sns8778
Board Sponsor
I avoid all political and Covid threads because of the negativity and drama. If he said that in those thread, I understand how the tone of the posts would carry over to the way he is coming off in this thread. I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt that maybe the negativity from those threads just affected his mood or posting style.
My issue was that he didn't state his opinion, he stated it as fact. If he had said something like - personally, I only use pre-workouts for the energy and feel good effects so stim free ones don't really work for me - cool, no problem at all. But he stated that they didn't work - and obviously people using stim-free pre-workouts aren't using them for energy so there's really no comparison. Everyone is looking for something different from a stim-free pre-workout and there's nothing wrong with that. Heck, I'm looking for something different sometimes based on the workout or type of workout which is why I use a couple different ones myself depending on the situation.
To me, going into a stimulant free pre-workout thread to tell everyone stimulant free pre-workouts suck and argue with them about it would be like me going into a thread about golf just to tell everyone golf sucks (golf doesn't suck, I just suck at it haha
).
Rad83
Well-known member
A sick fuking pump, is HIGHLY beneficial for muscle hypertrophy….This is common knowledge.
Any decent ‘pump formula’ greatly facilitates a killer pump even doing something like 3x3 pause bench (IME)….(even greater, is a 5-10mg tadalafil pump, which will often have a few bros ask “if I’ve jumped on something”)
If anything, it’s the non-stim pump products, aka Vaso-dilators, that have hypertrophic benefits….Not caffeine, etc. that are Vaso-constrictors, and will eventually eat into sleep/recovery if abused.
Any decent ‘pump formula’ greatly facilitates a killer pump even doing something like 3x3 pause bench (IME)….(even greater, is a 5-10mg tadalafil pump, which will often have a few bros ask “if I’ve jumped on something”)
If anything, it’s the non-stim pump products, aka Vaso-dilators, that have hypertrophic benefits….Not caffeine, etc. that are Vaso-constrictors, and will eventually eat into sleep/recovery if abused.
mrhankey87
Member
couldn’t agree more
GQdaLEGEND
Legend
i dont think no1 here takes pre workouts and sits on their a$s and expects that magic lean muscle pill
i dont like BA as well , well i cant handle it but it has great benefits and i support co who had it just not the supplement for me
mrhankey wanted help and we are trying to help him in this thread and all your doing is bashing supplments ..honestly i dont know why you are on the forum , if you dont read studies or believe in citrulline/agmatine to work pre workout then you need to stay out of natural threads
not hating i just think its wrong to say "those ingridents dont work" .. its okay as i stated earlier "no magic lean muscle pill/power" if you are one of those person that looks for those type of product where you dont have to workout, which is fine but dont bash others who wants to take products to help with working out.
GQdaLEGEND
Legend
but does it increase lean muscle tissue while i sit on my couch and watch tv and drink pizza and soda ?
ironkill
Well-known member
As long as it’s diet root beer
Tunaking14
Well-known member
sns8778
Board Sponsor
I believe that its direct sales for right now but he plans on having it available at some retailers soon from what he said in some of his posts.
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Kronic
Well-known member
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jarrellt67
Well-known member
Very good reason right there. I'm not hypersensitive but can't have them when I workout because it's so late (after work and getting the kids to bed) and stimulants would cause more sleep issues than I already have. It being late, and being so tired from a long day at work and evening playing with the kids, a stim-free workout helps give that extra motivation and focus needed to workout.
Has anyone tried Blackmarket Labs AdreNOlyn Nitric Oxide? I don't know anything about the company but the formula looks pretty good.
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BCseacow83
Well-known member
This seems to be a popular pastime on all social media platforms. All one has to do is read any IG post or YT comments to find people who are 100% negative about the subject or person at hand. I will never understand why people waste time commenting on something they clearly hate.
For example, I think designer handbags are very stupid and a complete waste of money. You know what I DON"T do: Waste my precious short time on earth posting negative comments in Gucci IG-themed posts lol. I think people who only have constant negative posts, hiding behind the old "I am entitled to my opinion" argument are simply sad sad individuals who must be very unhappy. Yes everyone is entitled to their opinion..............they are also entitled to keep it to themselves.
As to the lack of studies, there are ZERO studies demonstrating that the polypharmacy practiced by bodybuilders is effective and we clearly know it works. Working in a hospital thanosnap will know that many patients are on 10+ medications at a time and while these meds have all been extensively studied they have almost NEVER been studied is such massive combinations.....................
There is something to be said about just enjoying the acute effects of these products as well. I don't gain anything from a concert or movie but if I enjoy them it's worth it. I do know these products(properly dosed and designed) work but even if they were only acute temp. effects they still have value to certain people.
Kronic
Well-known member
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I've been doing this for about 2 weeks now. it's definitely the strongest non-stim pwo I've ever had. it's really expensive, but if you look at the HICA dose it's 1.5g just like the soccer study. any other HICA supplement is dosed much lower and isn't cheap (that I know of). code save20 probably still works
I've been doing this for about 2 weeks now. it's definitely the strongest non-stim pwo I've ever had. it's really expensive, but if you look at the HICA dose it's 1.5g just like the soccer study. any other HICA supplement is dosed much lower and isn't cheap (that I know of). code save20 probably still works
match
Active member
Hahaha! The longer you look at this the funnier it gets!
thatsuppguy
Active member
That's all social media is anymore, arguing over stupid stuff. All political and everyone is right based on which side they follow. Just sitting around waiting to argue over opinion.
Nodus1
Member
I really like that ingredient panel. The creatine, Peak O2 and BA are ingredients that build up in your system, so should be taken every day (not sure about PA, HICA and HMB). The $80 price tag is kind of tough to swallow though, imo. Like A Pro Peak & Power has a similar label (though it lacks PA, HMB and HICA in favor of tart cherry and tyrosine) for around $60 before discounts.
Kronic
Well-known member
ya I mostly got it for the hica. really hard to find hica without bcaa. hica-c came down in price a bit, but you gotta take 3 pills to get 1.5g. they recommend taking 1 pill 3 times a day. hopefully they keep making it cuz Amazon doesn't have it right now.
chimuscle
New member
bummer codes no longer working
sns8778
Board Sponsor
Amazon has started the some new requirements of supplement companies and its taking awhile for Amazon and the brands to figure things out and get Amazon what they want. It's nothing bad on the brand at all if they can't get the documentation right away because what Amazon wants is a little different than what the FDA wants. So that product, or any others you like on Amazon, may come down for a couple weeks before being back up and available.
We plan on doing a HICA XT product at some point this year. It's definitely in the que, just have a lot of other things we have to get out first.
Also, I know of another brand coming out with a recovery product that will have HICA in it as well. I can't say who yet, but its a great looking formula and its a capsule product. Most likely, you'll be able to buy a bottle for around the cost of what the other HICA product you were talking about used to sell for.
Nodus1
Member
Regarding HICA, I found a source which also incorporates Peak O2 and elevATP. Jacked Factory Pro-Series Build only has 1/2 the HICA as Vigor8, but it has twice the servings and I was able to find it for under $30. Interestingly, JFPS Build has the same ingredients, in the same amounts as Transparent Lab's product which I think is also called Build. Most of the other ingredients in Vigor8 I can compile from a number of different sources and the savings in cost per serving make the inconvenience worth it.
PoSiTiVeFLoW
Well-known member
Yes, Blackmarket Adrenolyn = it's excellent. I'm ordering more on sale at DPS, going to try their "stim free pump" nitric oxide when I don't want to be bathed in caffeine like I normally am.
I'm normally a FullBlitz from Build Fast kinda guy - but Adrenolyn this has a smooth clean /focus / energy (not jitery or crashy) and the PUMP was excellent.. having just got back into the swing of things this week training wise.