Proteolytic Enzymes?

[MadStax]

Has anyone tried taking this supp? We all know how hard it is to eat 6-7 meals per day. I've been researching this product and it looks like it can help you absorb more protein in a single sitting. Depending on dose, it can be as much as 400% more!

 

[Renew1]

Following

 

[UNX]

Any particular brand?

 

[Nac]

Do people in general have problems absorbing protein? I guess the skeptical side of me is, how do I know this is an actual concern and not a pseudo-issue supplement companies are creating to sell something which is not actually needed?

 

[MadStax]

Do people in general have problems absorbing protein? I guess the skeptical side of me is, how do I know this is an actual concern and not a pseudo-issue supplement companies are creating to sell something which is not actually needed?

There isn't a ton of research into this, oddly. We do know that 25-30g of protein is the most the body can absorb from a single meal. It takes the body an hour to naturally process 10g of protein. Assuming you are keeping protein in your system constantly throughout the day and are getting eight hours of sleep, that's roughly 160g absorbed. The rest is excreted in waste. If you supplement enzymes to break the protein down into amino acids, more can be absorbed. One study found 2.5g of enzyme increased absorption by 300% and 5g by 400%! Other studies have used more realistic doses of enzyme with slightly increased absorption.

 

[Nac]

There isn't a ton of research into this, oddly. We do know that 25-30g of protein is the most the body can absorb from a single meal. It takes the body an hour to naturally process 10g of protein. Assuming you are keeping protein in your system constantly throughout the day and are getting eight hours of sleep, that's roughly 160g absorbed. The rest is excreted in waste. If you supplement enzymes to break the protein down into amino acids, more can be absorbed. One study found 2.5g of enzyme increased absorption by 300% and 5g by 400%! Other studies have used more realistic doses of enzyme with slightly increased absorption.

Im not sure your claims here are accurate at all.

From an evolution standpoint, itd be ridiculous to have such a small upper limit on meal absorption; in a modern sense, people/athletes who followed an intermittent fasting protocol would essentially be protein-malnourished?

The science Im aware of simply doesnt support what youre claiming. At all. Schoenfeld has a study directly applicable to athletes, and he puts the ideal upper limit for protein at 0.55gm/kg per meal. For a 100kg dude thats 55gm, double what you are claiming.

And the "issue" or bottleneck isnt gut digestion and absorption, its how large bolus doses of protein are utilised by the body (amino acid vs gluconeogenesis).

It might help if you posted the studies that directly show how supplemental proteolytic enzymes are "increasing protein absorption".

 

[MadStax]

Im not sure your claims here are accurate at all.

From an evolution standpoint, itd be ridiculous to have such a small upper limit on meal absorption; in a modern sense, people/athletes who followed an intermittent fasting protocol would essentially be protein-malnourished?

The science Im aware of simply doesnt support what youre claiming. At all. Schoenfeld has a study directly applicable to athletes, and he puts the ideal upper limit for protein at 0.55gm/kg per meal. For a 100kg dude thats 55gm, double what you are claiming.

And the "issue" or bottleneck isnt gut digestion and absorption, its how large bolus doses of protein are utilised by the body (amino acid vs gluconeogenesis).

It might help if you posted the studies that directly show how supplemental proteolytic enzymes are "increasing protein absorption".

There are a lot of them, but I believe this is the one you're referencing?

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[MadStax]

The study done with 2.5g and 5g.

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[Nac]

Id add, seeing this thread is in the anabolic section...

AAS make the body more efficient at utilising ingested protein. Which effectively means, like training, you can get away with less. Im seeing this anecdotally with more and more coaches putting their (IFBB) athletes on "moderate" protein intakes; a 250lb+ guy eats 200-250gm per day. The "anabolic preference" is now switching to carbs.

 

[MadStax]

Results from real world supps (compared):

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Quite a few papers written on the subject:

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[Nac]

The study done with 2.5g and 5g.

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Yip, sure.

But that study is limited and applicable to whey protein (liquid) intake, not wholefood. The author even recommends wholefood vs whey.

 

[MadStax]

Id add, seeing this thread is in the anabolic section...

AAS make the body more efficient at utilising ingested protein. Which effectively means, like training, you can get away with less. Im seeing this anecdotally with more and more coaches putting their (IFBB) athletes on "moderate" protein intakes; a 250lb+ guy eats 200-250gm per day. The "anabolic preference" is now switching to carbs.

Yes, I fully understand the importance of carbs when on cycle. In fact, it's been proven that much lower amounts of protein (0.6-0.8g/lb) when on cycle will actually help you bulk faster! Cutting fat off cycle is easier with 1-1.2g/lb and that's where I think these enzymes can really shine?

 

[MadStax]

Yip, sure.

But that study is limited and applicable to whey protein (liquid) intake, not wholefood. The author even recommends wholefood vs whey.

I think whey is just an easier thing to control in a study? I imagine this would apply to all protein sources? I definitely agree that you should, whenever possible, get all of your nutrients from whole foods!

 

[MadStax]

Mostly I was looking for real world results from members. Hoping that someone had tried supplementing enzymes in their diet. I bought some and have been taking 1.5g of an enzyme blend with each meal. I started yesterday. We shall see if recovery time is reduced and if fat loss is expedited.

 

[Nac]

I think whey is just an easier thing to control in a study?

Well, theres obviously a plethora of nutrition (in general) studies done where protein intake isnt limited or restricted to whey. So Im not sure thats a factor here at all. My suspicion is that whey was used simply because of its wide use as a supplement....and the marketing potential for these enzymes.

 

[Nac]

Mostly I was looking for real world results from members. Hoping that someone had tried supplementing enzymes in their diet. I bought some and have been taking 1.5g of an enzyme blend with each meal. I started yesterday. We shall see if recovery time is reduced and if fat loss is expedited.

Sure and thats great but itd be even more compelling to see some studies where subjects in our demographic have used these enzymes to some significant advantage.

 

[MadStax]

Sure and thats great but itd be even more compelling to see some studies where subjects in our demographic have used these enzymes to some significant advantage.

I completely agree! I am amazed it hasn't been done, given the clear evidence that the enzymes do work!

 

[UNX]

Well, theres obviously a plethora of nutrition (in general) studies done where protein intake isnt limited or restricted to whey. So Im not sure thats a factor here at all. My suspicion is that whey was used simply because of its wide use as a supplement....and the marketing potential for these enzymes.

Last bulking cycle I used Swanson n·zimes, a blend for aiding in the digestion of all macros. It helps when you eat more than 4000 kcal daily. Also cerecalase breaks plants walls so you get more of your vegetables.

 

[Nac]

Last bulking cycle I used Swanson n·zimes, a blend for aiding in the digestion of all macros. It helps when you eat more than 4000 kcal daily. Also cerecalase breaks plants walls so you get more of your vegetables.

The idea is certainly intuitively appealing, and I generally dont have a problem using supplements that have no "perceivable" benefits...but those supps also tend to have studies demonstrating their efficacy. It would seem using these enzymes would require faith that they are actually benefiting. Is that kind of where youre at with them?

 

[MadStax]

The idea is certainly intuitively appealing, and I generally dont have a problem using supplements that have no "perceivable" benefits...but those supps also tend to have studies demonstrating their efficacy. It would seem using these enzymes would require faith that they are actually benefiting. Is that kind of where youre at with them?

I feel like it can't hurt and they are pretty inexpensive. They also are purported to have other benefits that could be good for bodybuilding. I will keep it up through the end of this bottle and see what, if any results I get.

 

[Nac]

I feel like it can't hurt and they are pretty inexpensive. They also are purported to have other benefits that could be good for bodybuilding. I will keep it up through the end of this bottle and see what, if any results I get.

Do you use protein shakes much? How much P/C/F do you generally aim for (I guess Im really wanting to know if you tend towards balanced macros, or low fat, or high Pro, etc)

 

[MadStax]

Do you use protein shakes much? How much P/C/F do you generally aim for (I guess Im really wanting to know if you tend towards balanced macros, or low fat, or high Pro, etc)

I do ON's Pro Grainer every morning in my coffee. I have been taking two of the pills with that. The rest of the day is whole food meals and maybe 2-3 20g Muscle Milk Lite shakes as snacks throughout the day.

I aim for 200g P with as little fat as possible when cutting (which I am doing now) and try to stay under 1,500 calories/day. When bulking I don't even keep track. I just eat as much as possible.

 

[UNX]

The idea is certainly intuitively appealing, and I generally dont have a problem using supplements that have no "perceivable" benefits...but those supps also tend to have studies demonstrating their efficacy. It would seem using these enzymes would require faith that they are actually benefiting. Is that kind of where youre at with them?

Yes, I don't have any digestive disease so the benefit shouldn't be very relevant, but I got them for cheap and I eat lots of vegetables, I don't lose anything to add enzymes when bulking.

 

[Hilltern]

I’ve tried various digestive enzymes and though I can’t speak to the molecular level of digestion (ie protein utilization), I did feel less bloated and notably less gassy. Not sure if that’s the same thing though.

 

[ValiantThor08]

To add.

The reason carbs may work to promote continued anabolism is that it activates mtor on its own without you ingesting protein with it. You will most likely have unused aminos in your intestinal tract, and the activated mtor from the carbs may cause the body to use aminos unused.

 

[ValiantThor08]

I tried a trial of masszymes, and I'm not sure I noticed a decrease in bloating, nor an increase of hunger.