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Donald Trump running for president

ax1 said:
There is a lot of pressure on NYC within the departments. There is a club like mentality, let’s say you live in Staten Island and are Staten Island police....you complain about another officer .... then they relocate you to another precinct, let’s say the Bronx. Now your daily travel to and from work is another additional 3 hours a day which is time away from your kids and family. They can make your life miserable if you don’t stand for the “club.”
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Which is BS. But I see how it could make good officers hesitant to try to stand up to, or tell on, bad ones. That needs to change.
 
manifesto said:
I agree, and I dont department coverups are widespread....at all. The liberal media would have you believe every department is corrupt
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When cops pull over other cops for speeding while off duty, they show their badge and usually let them go.

Isn’t that corruption?
 
manifesto said:
"No knock raids" are necessary at times when and armed suspect is perceived to be inside. Now, i heard the story about the wrong house getting hit. The officers on that should be in trouble.
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Yeah, exactly. No knock raid to get an presumed armed and dangerous suspect, sure. A high level criminal, someone in the cartel, a known violent gang, etc. But to get a local weed dealer or something lol? And please make damn sure you have the right house. I’m not saying NEVER do no-knock raids, only be very selective about it, and when you do it, double check the damn address.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
I’m not talking so much about trying to weed out the bad apples before they get the job, I’m talking about preventing departments from covering up the wrongdoings of said sociopaths, or at the least turning a blind eye to them, once they are hired and show themselves to be sociopaths on the job. Come on, surely we can agree on that?
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i agree with that wholeheartedly...that does not justify the indiscriminate attacks on ALL cops.

if you are paying attention the major cities where most of the bad stuff is happening are run by democrats. where is the responsibility of politicians to their citizens?
 
ax1 said:
When cops pull over other cops for speeding while off duty, they show their badge and usually let them go.

Isn’t that corruption?
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it is called professional courtesy, lol.
 
ax1 said:
When cops pull over other cops for speeding while off duty, they show their badge and usually let them go.

Isn’t that corruption?
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Nah, its called "spirit of the law" as opposed to "letter of the law". Many citizens are given warnings as well
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Yeah, exactly. No knock raid to get an presumed armed and dangerous suspect, sure. A high level criminal, someone in the cartel, a known violent gang, etc. But to get a local weed dealer or something lol? And please make damn sure you have the right house. I’m not saying NEVER do no-knock raids, only be very selective about it, and when you do it, double check the damn address.
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Completely agree.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Yeah, exactly. No knock raid to get an presumed armed and dangerous suspect, sure. A high level criminal, someone in the cartel, a known violent gang, etc. But to get a local weed dealer or something lol? And please make damn sure you have the right house. I’m not saying NEVER do no-knock raids, only be very selective about it, and when you do it, double check the damn address.
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google brent long...a local cop who was killed serving a warrant.

you hear the story of the woman who went in to get left leg amputated and they took her right leg by MISTAKE?
 
Woody said:
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being pulled over is much different than killing/attacking cops.

when the ira were bombing back in the 70's at 1st they had support of the public even though innocent people were being killed, having public support didn't make it right even though the public supported their cause.
 
thebigt said:
i agree with that wholeheartedly...that does not justify the indiscriminate attacks on ALL cops.

if you are paying attention the major cities where most of the bad stuff is happening are run by democrats. where is the responsibility of politicians to their citizens?
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Oh, undoubtedly people shouldn’t be indiscriminately attacking cops. That just gives the bad ones more justification to use excessive force, as they can say “see, we fear for our lives, these people are all violent.” Not all cops are bad, not all protestors are violent, etc. and I don’t know how some people can claim ALL members of either group are bad. Not saying you think all protestors are violent of course.
 
thebigt said:
i agree with that wholeheartedly...that does not justify the indiscriminate attacks on ALL cops.

if you are paying attention the major cities where most of the bad stuff is happening are run by democrats. where is the responsibility of politicians to their citizens?
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Oh, undoubtedly people shouldn’t be indiscriminately attacking cops. That just gives the bad ones more justification to use excessive force, as they can say “see, we fear for our lives, these people are all violent.” Not all cops are bad, not all protestors are violent, etc. and I don’t know how some people can claim ALL members of either group are bad. Not saying you think all protestors are violent of course.
 
thebigt said:
google brent long...a local cop who was killed serving a warrant.

you hear the story of the woman who went in to get left leg amputated and they took her right leg by MISTAKE?
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Dude, I never said that mistakes don’t happen in other professions, so stop trying to change the subject. That doesn’t mean we don’t try to minimize these mistakes, and hold people accountable when they are made. That’s what I mean by reform...
 
thebigt said:
google brent long...a local cop who was killed serving a warrant.

you hear the story of the woman who went in to get left leg amputated and they took her right leg by MISTAKE?
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Dude, I never said that mistakes don’t happen in other professions, so stop trying to change the subject. That doesn’t mean we don’t try to minimize these mistakes, and hold people accountable when they are made. That’s what I mean by reform...
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Which is BS. But I see how it could make good officers hesitant to try to stand up to, or tell on, bad ones. That needs to change.
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Yeah its really hard to blame them for standing silent. Reform needs better protections for good cops.

Did you know cops have the highest suicide out of any profession in the USA? Not sure if its worse than military, but that was pretty disturbing when I heard about that the other day.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Oh, undoubtedly people shouldn’t be indiscriminately attacking cops. That just gives the bad ones more justification to use excessive force, as they can say “see, we fear for our lives, these people are all violent.” Not all cops are bad, not all protestors are violent, etc. and I don’t know how some people can claim ALL members of either group are bad. Not saying you think all protestors are violent of course.
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thank you for understanding that i can support cops in general while still able to condemn the horrific acts of a few bad actors.

protests were even more common in my youth than they are today and while most were peaceful many weren't...look at the anti-government underground movements of 60's 70's, and the watts riots. just like the gangsters of prohibition, the public finds them glamorous for awhile but soon tires of the disruption of their daily lives.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Dude, I never said that mistakes don’t happen in other professions, so stop trying to change the subject. That doesn’t mean we don’t try to minimize these mistakes, and hold people accountable when they are made. That’s what I mean by reform...
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i am not trying to minimize anything...just sick and tired of ALL cops being lumped into same bag.
 
manifesto said:
Good point. We should defund them so they can't afford to train anymore.
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I'm given to understand they often go to training on their own time as it is, they just currently go listen to a psychopath. But the portion of their budget I'd like to see diverted to other causes would be the budget for all the military grade weapons and equipment. If they need to divert some of that money to better training, I'm fine with that.
 
ax1 said:
Yeah its really hard to blame them for standing silent. Reform needs better protections for good cops.

Did you know cops have the highest suicide out of any profession in the USA? Not sure if its worse than military, but that was pretty disturbing when I heard about that the other day.
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this...cops rely on backup. many probably feel if they get labeled as a rat there won't be any backup.

got to be hard to kiss the wife and kids good bye thinking it might be the last time, cops are people just like everyone else.
 
ax1 said:
Yeah its really hard to blame them for standing silent. Reform needs better protections for good cops.

Did you know cops have the highest suicide out of any profession in the USA? Not sure if its worse than military, but that was pretty disturbing when I heard about that the other day.
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Do they? This says that mining/oil/gas extraction has 54.2 per 100,000 workers:

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The rate is ~20 for police officers:

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Still concerning, and higher than the general population, but I don’t think it’s THE highest.
 
ax1 said:
As far as Atlanta goes, where is all the outrage on another civilian behind the wheel drunk???!!?
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Umm, yeah, drunk driving is bad but it doesn't warrant execution, so focusing the conversation on that right now would be victim blaming.
 
thebigt said:
this...cops rely on backup. many probably feel if they get labeled as a rat there won't be any backup.

got to be hard to kiss the wife and kids good bye thinking it might be the last time, cops are people just like everyone else.
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Yes, but then we should fix that issue, not allow it to happen.

Cops are human too, but a good officer shouldn’t have to fear reporting his coworker for raping someone, or beating someone, thinking that the department will label them as a rat and not back them up in the future. Surely you think that this is a fundamentally flawed issue, where good officers are punished for trying to ensure bad ones are punished for doing wrong?
 
nostrum420 said:
I'm given to understand they often go to training on their own time as it is, they just currently go listen to a psychopath. But the portion of their budget I'd like to see diverted to other causes would be the budget for all the military grade weapons and equipment. If they need to divert some of that money to better training, I'm fine with that.
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time was when cops were getting outgunned by criminals with better weapons...you remember that big shoot out in LA several years ago? personally i want those paid to protect to have better weapons than those robbing.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Do they? This says that mining/oil/gas extraction has 54.2 per 100,000 workers:

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The rate is ~20 for police officers:

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Still concerning, and higher than the general population, but I don’t think it’s THE highest.
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I got the info from this, Ill have to look into this more carefully maybe I read it wrong the first time but its more up to date than what you had there.
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muscleupcrohn said:
Yes, but then we should fix that issue, not allow it to happen.

Cops are human too, but a good officer shouldn’t have to fear reporting his coworker for raping someone, or beating someone, thinking that the department will label them as a rat and not back them up in the future. Surely you think that this is a fundamentally flawed issue, where good officers are punished for trying to ensure bad ones are punished for doing wrong?
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absolutely...there are many things i think are bad that i don't have good solutions for.
 
ax1 said:
I got the info from this, Ill have to look into this more carefully maybe I read it wrong the first time but its more up to date than what you had there.
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The title says what you said, but read the data. 17/100k compared to >50/100k. Still higher than the general population, but not the highest from what I see.
 
thebigt said:
time was when cops were getting outgunned by criminals with better weapons...you remember that big shoot out in LA several years ago? personally i want those paid to protect to have better weapons than those robbing.
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This is what SWAT teams are for. This kind of stuff shouldn't be used on protesters or carried as a means of intimidation.
 
thebigt said:
time was when cops were getting outgunned by criminals with better weapons...you remember that big shoot out in LA several years ago? personally i want those paid to protect to have better weapons than those robbing.
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The only thing civilians aren’t allowed to own in pro-2A states are, essentially, automatic weapons and short barreled rifles and shotguns. The average cop does NOT need an automatic weapon IMO. Hell, sometimes there’s enough collateral damage when they fire semi-automatic weapons. Leave that to officers with more specific and special sized training IMO.
 
thebigt said:
time was when cops were getting outgunned by criminals with better weapons...you remember that big shoot out in LA several years ago? personally i want those paid to protect to have better weapons than those robbing.
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The only thing civilians aren’t allowed to own in pro-2A states are, essentially, automatic weapons and short barreled rifles and shotguns. The average cop does NOT need an automatic weapon IMO. Hell, sometimes there’s enough collateral damage when they fire semi-automatic weapons. Leave that to officers with more specific and special sized training IMO.
 
nostrum420 said:
This is what SWAT teams are for. This kind of stuff shouldn't be used on protesters or carried as a means of intimidation.
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military grade weapons are being used on protesters?

cops carry rifles in trunk, by the time swat team gears up and arrives cops carrying side arms would be massacred by criminals with weapons like those used in LA shootout.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
The only thing civilians aren’t allowed to own in pro-2A states are, essentially, automatic weapons and short barreled rifles and shotguns. The average cop does NOT need an automatic weapon IMO. Hell, sometimes there’s enough collateral damage when they fire semi-automatic weapons. Leave that to officers with more specific and special sized training IMO.
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criminals are criminals, this means laws don't apply to them. you did see that LA shootout right?
 
muscleupcrohn said:
What? We clearly need some level of police reform, and that can’t be done by looking at anyone but the police.

Too often police departments not only look the other way when their officers commit crimes, but even actively try to cover up said crimes. That needs to be changed, and that is solely an issue with police, not the general population or culture.

Would police reform fix all problems and police shootings? Of course not, but it would go a long way to helping to restore peoples’ trust in the police. Hell, did you know that as recently as 2018, 35 states (70% of them) didn’t have laws on the books explicitly barring an officer from having sex with someone in custody? That’s f**ked up man.
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The text on the screen is easy to read...not sure why you're asking...."What?"
 
thebigt said:
criminals are criminals, this means laws don't apply to them. you did see that LA shootout right?
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Very good point, but I’m saying I don’t think a normal officer needs an automatic rifle. Maybe officers in areas that are known for prevalent gang violence, or specially trained officers, or members of certain forces, etc. But if you’re just a random new cop, first day on the job in a random town not known for gang violence, do you really need an automatic rifle?
 
thebigt said:
criminals are criminals, this means laws don't apply to them. you did see that LA shootout right?
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I do remember that. Police had to go to guns stores and buy stronger firearms to get through the body armor.
muscleupcrohn said:
I mean “what” as in you’re not making sense. Nice way to avoid actually addressing any of the points/issues I raised by the way.
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I think I made perfectly good sense. My post had nothing to do with what you followed up with anyway.
 
Admin, do you not think no knock raids on the wrong houses are bad? Do you not think officers shouldn’t be allowed to have sex with people in custody? Do you not think that officers shouldn’t be afraid to report when their coworkers do wrong? Genuine questions, because that’s what I mean by reform.
 
Admin said:
I do remember that. Police had to go to guns stores and buy stronger firearms to get through the body armor.

I think I made perfectly good sense. My post had nothing to do with what you followed up with anyway.
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Of course you think you made sense; who pairs things they don’t think make sense.

Anyway, even if my issues are unrelated, please address them if you can, I’m genuinely curious...
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Admin, do you not think no knock raids on the wrong houses are bad?
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Of course.

Do you not think officers shouldn’t be allowed to have sex with people in custody?
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Of course not.

Do you not think that officers shouldn’t be afraid to report when their coworkers do wrong? Genuine questions, because that’s what I mean by reform.
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Of course.



In what way did my previous post even bring those issues up?
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Great, so you are in favor of some basic level of police reform then. And that means looking at the police and department policies. That’s all. :)
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Who said they weren't?


My entire point was if you fix that, will it significantly reduce the number of crimes in inner city neighborhoods? No.

You are arguing about a symptom..not the cause of why the police are disproportionately in inner city neighborhoods and all the reform above won't stop the attitude of cops being an oppressive force. How does that not make sense?
 
Admin said:
Who said they weren't?


My entire point was if you fix that, will it significantly reduce the number of crimes in inner city neighborhoods? No.

You are arguing about a symptom..not the cause of why the police are disproportionately in inner city neighborhoods and all the reform above won't stop the attitude of cops being an oppressive force. How does that not make sense?
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Reform will stop them from abusing their power with impunity, if they think they can actually get in trouble for abusing their power.

I’m not talking about crime in inner cities, I’m talking about police around the nation abusing their powers and getting away with it.

That’s not a “symptom” of anything, that’s a problem with department policy not doing enough to deter these actions from happening.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Reform will stop them from abusing their power with impunity, if they think they can actually get in trouble for abusing their power.

I’m not talking about crime in inner cities, I’m talking about police around the nation abusing their powers and getting away with it.

That’s not a “symptom” of anything, that’s a problem with department policy not doing enough to deter these actions from happening.
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History disagrees with you.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
You said “the fix isn't to look at the cops, even though guilty at times...but the community as a whole.”

If “guilty cops” aren’t “bad cops,” then my bad I guess?
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Yes, you're bad.
 
Admin said:
History disagrees with you.
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History disagrees that people are more likely to abuse their power when there’s less potential punishment for it? So fear of punishment doesn’t deter crime is what you’re saying? Why even have laws then, if they don’t actually deter crime?
 
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