Donald Trump running for president

[ax1]

I think doing whatever it takes to bolster the bottom line even if that means screwing over your workforce is a direct effect of capitalism. That money has to go back to the capital owners to repay their valuable investment. Think of the dividends, won't somebody please think of the dividends?!

Humans need fiscal incentives to create these jobs in the first place, or the workforce wouldnt even be working. More people would be poor.

If an employer is stealing from its workers, it needs to be documented and then taken to the courts. Its a totally different issue.

 

[nostrum420]

I think we all feel like that when we are in that position. Especially pizzed you off when you see people being elevated who are nothing but brown nosers and then when they get there they work even worse.

This^^^

When I became a manager, my store took number 1 in the district for overall sales goals amongst several other accolades, in my first year as manager, yet I got passed over for promotions that the azz kissers got instead.

 

[nostrum420]

Humans need fiscal incentives to create these jobs in the first place, or the workforce wouldnt even be working. More people would be poor.

If an employer is stealing from its workers, it needs to be documented and then taken to the courts. Its a totally different issue.

Capital doesn't create jobs, it facilitates them. Demand creates jobs. Anytime someone has a problem they want someone else to help with, a job is created. It's a process of nature not a benevolent gift from the capital holders. People need fiscal incentives to do a job.

 

[thebigt]

Those production jobs just don't exist anymore.

when I started in a box factory the whole place was ran on manual labor...you had to feed the machine by hand and stack into bails by hand every bundle coming off machine. I started as a stacker, very physically demanding job to keep up with speed of machine plus push off bail when 6 layers high and then put bottom sheets down all while bundles were still coming down the line...then they got a machine called a loadfomer which had a button to push to lower each layer then send load out to bailing line. then I got promoted to collator, had to tie a strap around each bundle of 25 by hand-then they got a automatic strapper. worked my way up to operator and had to feed the machine by hand and watch that everything was running properly at same time-don't run out of strap for stapping machine don't run out of glue in gluer don't run out of ink in printer. then they put in a prefeeder and no longer had to feed by hand.

we used to do setups using allen wrenches, had to reset the whole damn machine everytime we changed orders. had to clean ink wells, put new ink in, take out old diecut put new in....then they bought new machines that had computer setups.

by the time my career ended at international paper i was operating a fully automated multimillion dollar flexo diecutter/folder gluer w/3 color printer....and my only experience with computers in high school was a punch card machine.


all this I learned by on the job training.

 

[nostrum420]

when I started in a box factory the whole place was ran on manual labor...you had to feed the machine by hand and stack into bails by hand every bundle coming off machine. I started as a stacker, very physically demanding job to keep up with speed of machine us push off bail when 6 layers high and then pu bottom sheets down all while bundles were still coming down the line...then they got a machine called a loadfomer which had a button to push to lower each layer then send load out to bailing line. then I got promoted to collator, had to tie a strap around each bundle of 25 by hand-then they got a automatic strapper. worked my way up to operator and had to feed the machine by hand and watch that everything was running properly at same time-don't run out of strap for stapping machine don't run out of glue in gluer don't run our of ink in printer. then they put in a prefeeder and no longer had to feed by hand.

we used to do setups using allen wrenches, had to reset the whole damn machine everytime we changed orders. had to clean ink wells, put new ink in, take out old diecut put new in....then they bought new machines that had computer setups.

by the time my career ended at international paper i was operating a fully automated multimillion dollar flexo diecutter/folder gluer w/3 color printer....and my only experience with computers in high school was a punch card machine.


all this I learned by on the job training.

So, you see how your generation basically closed all the opportunity doors behind you? Not by the choice of most of you, of course but at the same time as all those things were happening, my generation was being told to follow the same path you did. Get a job with a good company, work hard and you can work your way up from the bottom, etc. That model just doesn't exist anymore. I wish someone told me in high school that I was just gonna have to juggle 2 or 3 gig jobs to get started and then pursue more of an artisanal self employment type of job.

 

[ax1]

Capital doesn't create jobs, it facilitates them. Demand creates jobs. Anytime someone has a problem they want someone else to help with, a job is created. It's a process of nature not a benevolent gift from the capital holders. People need fiscal incentives to do a job.

If they need fiscal incentives to do a job, and they voluntarily take the job because of the incentive to get paid, whats the problem?

 

[nostrum420]

If they need fiscal incentives to do a job, and they voluntarily take the job because of the incentive to get paid, whats the problem?

The problem occurs when the negotiating power of the individual pales in comparison to the power of a monopoly or oligopoly so they have to "volunteer" to get paid a pittance with that volunteering occurring with the figurative gun to their head of facing the choice of destitution or said pittance.

 

[ax1]

So, you see how your generation basically closed all the opportunity doors behind you? Not by the choice of most of you, of course but at the same time as all those things were happening, my generation was being told to follow the same path you did. Get a job with a good company, work hard and you can work your way up from the bottom, etc. That model just doesn't exist anymore. I wish someone told me in high school that I was just gonna have to juggle 2 or 3 gig jobs to get started and then pursue more of an artisanal self employment type of job.

The big problem is the entire federal education system and Im a victim of it as well. Its designed to create employees, not independent workers and entrepreneurs.

 

[nostrum420]

The big problem is the entire federal education system and Im a victim of it as well. Its designed to create employees, not independent workers and entrepreneurs.

That's a fine system if you're going to treat employees decently. I've said it before and I'll say it again, we are, in some ways, treated worse than livestock; it's considered an inhumane crime not to give your livestock healthcare...

 

[nostrum420]

The big problem is the entire federal education system and Im a victim of it as well. Its designed to create employees, not independent workers and entrepreneurs.

You're right though. Our education system is based on producing mostly farm and/or factory workers. It's based on a 3 tiered education system. Most go into labor, some go into management and a few go into leadership. This was developed by the Germans around WWI. I wanna say they were Bismark schools or something like that...

 

[thebigt]

So, you see how your generation basically closed all the opportunity doors behind you? Not by the choice of most of you, of course but at the same time as all those things were happening, my generation was being told to follow the same path you did. Get a job with a good company, work hard and you can work your way up from the bottom, etc. That model just doesn't exist anymore. I wish someone told me in high school that I was just gonna have to juggle 2 or 3 gig jobs to get started and then pursue more of an artisanal self employment type of job.

I guess you see what you want to see...the point I was making is if a kid with no and I mean none, computer skills could be taught by on the job training to run a complex fully automated machine, name me a job that a 4 year degree can teach that can't be taught by on the job training...

your generation should be demanding that corporations teach job skills the way they used to. a 4 year degree is just not in the best interest of the majority of people, advanced degrees are a different story.

 

[ax1]

That's a fine system if you're going to treat employees decently. I've said it before and I'll say it again, we are, in some ways, treated worse than livestock; it's considered an inhumane crime not to give your livestock healthcare...

So what is your answer to this? Is there a system around the world you have in mind where people dont have the same or similar quibbles or worse?

 

[nostrum420]

I guess you see what you want to see...the point I was making is if a kid with no and I mean none, computer skills could be taught by on the job training to run a complex fully automated machine, name me a job that a 4 year degree can teach that can't be taught by on the job training...

your generation should be demanding that corporations teach job skills the way they used to. a 4 year degree is just not in the best interest of the majority of people, advanced degrees are a different story.

How can we demand anything if we can't organize and strike? It's like I was saying, our individual bargaining power is next to nothing compared to that of the major employers.

 

[ax1]

You're right though. Our education system is based on producing mostly farm and/or factory workers. It's based on a 3 tiered education system. Most go into labor, some go into management and a few go into leadership. This was developed by the Germans around WWI. I wanna say they were Bismark schools or something like that...

If the topic interests you, you should definitely look at the material of Charlotte Thompson Iserbyt, a whistleblower from the Reagan administration who used to be Senior Policy Advisor for the DoE.

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[nostrum420]

So what is your answer to this? Is there a system around the world you have in mind where people dont have the same or similar quibbles or worse?

Enforce antitrust

End legalized bribes

Raise min wage

Strengthen social safety net

Institute the kind of progressive tax code that worked just fine for decades before we legalized bribery.

Get those done and report back and I'll tell you what to do next.

Also, we're financing all of this with Aleksander's money.

 

[nostrum420]

If the topic interests you, you should definitely look at the material of Charlotte Thompson Iserbyt, a whistleblower from the Reagan administration who used to be Senior Policy Advisor for the DoE.

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Yes Reagan Bush and Nixon instituted long term plans to **** the poor and create a neo-aristocracy. That's why prince W eventually inherited the thrown.

 

[thebigt]

How can we demand anything if we can't organize and strike? It's like I was saying, our individual bargaining power is next to nothing compared to that of the major employers.

well you have politicians like Bernie and aoc demanding that college be free, and make government pay for it- what the hell good does that do, a 4 year degree doesn't do much by way of teaching a job skill...hell most with a 4 year degree don't even work in their field of study... instead demand a new model from politicians, demand that corporations foot the bill for the job skills in demand instead of whining that they don't have skilled people to fill jobs!!!

time for your generation to demand corporate America step up instead of wanting government to take care of everything.

 

[ax1]

Enforce antitrust

End legalized bribes

Raise min wage

Strengthen social safety net

Institute the kind of progressive tax code that worked just fine for decades before we legalized bribery.

Get those done and report back and I'll tell you what to do next.

Also, we're financing all of this with Aleksander's money. ☺

Do you think that all this would be more realistically implemented statewide rather than by the Federal Government?

 

[nostrum420]

well you have politicians like Bernie and aoc demanding that college be free, and make government pay for it- what the hell good does that do, a 4 year degree doesn't do much by way of teaching a job skill...hell most with a 4 year degree don't even work in their field of study... instead demand a new model from politicians, demand that corporations foot the bill for the job skills in demand instead of whining that they don't have skilled people to fill jobs!!!

time for your generation to demand corporate America step up instead of wanting government to take care of everything.

But you're suggesting we have the government take care of getting the corporations to take care of things for us?

Still though, this is shockingly progressive of you and I love it.

 

[nostrum420]

Do you think that all this would be more realistically implemented statewide rather than by the Federal Government?

Other than min wage, I think everything else on that list needs to be federal and I think even the state by state min wage needs federal oversight to assure it is in fact a living wage.

 

[ax1]

well you have politicians like Bernie and aoc demanding that college be free, and make government pay for it- what the hell good does that do, a 4 year degree doesn't do much by way of teaching a job skill...hell most with a 4 year degree don't even work in their field of study... instead demand a new model from politicians, demand that corporations foot the bill for the job skills in demand instead of whining that they don't have skilled people to fill jobs!!!

time for your generation to demand corporate America step up instead of wanting government to take care of everything.

Lot of truth here, and alot of students take useless courses. The big problem also is state universities have been getting expensive as hell. Im all for private colleges but the state should at least be affordable and not invest millions in tax payer money with useless crap like sports but put it all in on affordable education. And I love sports, but there is a place for everything.

 

[ax1]

Other than min wage, I think everything else on that list needs to be federal and I think even the state by state min wage needs federal oversight to assure it is in fact a living wage.

I can see it working if the Fed acted a part....I think whats important is regional, as a buck here may do nothing but alot more in other places.

In NY they actually hard pushed the minimum wage in NYC first with the rest following since its the most expensive overall place to live in the state.

 

[thebigt]

But you're suggesting we have the government take care of getting the corporations to take care of things for us?

Still though, this is shockingly progressive of you and I love it.

lol...I am suggesting that progressives find some better leaders for their platform. the current crop are losers who just want the government to take care of everyone...what progressives need are leaders that are going to tell corporations that if they don't have skilled workers to fill positions then train them.

4 year degrees are killing todays young people, and from what I see they aren't worth whatever it is they are printed on. on the job training worked for my generation, it can work for yours also.

 

[Aleksandar37]

Whenever I've hired a temp, I've paid them $15/hr. Unfortunately, I can't provide steady work or full time hours but I've always paid a living wage.

$15 an hour every once in a while without benefits isn't providing a living wage. You call me stingy because I don't want to give money to others for doing nothing, but you're not even willing to provide money for consistent work? I don't know if you're more naive or hypocritical, but we employee people for a hell of a lot more than $15 an hour plus benefits and bonuses.

 

[nostrum420]

lol...I am suggesting that progressives find some better leaders for their platform. the current crop are losers who just want the government to take care of everyone...what progressives need are leaders that are going to tell corporations that if they don't have skilled workers to fill positions then train them.

4 year degrees are killing todays young people, and from what I see they aren't worth whatever it is they are printed on. on the job training worked for my generation, it can work for yours also.

I like it but you still need a way to take care of those people who cannot work without demonizing them as leeches on society.

Progressives are in a tough spot they've been crapped on by both the right and the "moderate" corporatist, neoliberal left for the last 30 years or so.

 

[nostrum420]

$15 an hour every once in a while without benefits isn't providing a living wage. You call me stingy because I don't want to give money to others for doing nothing, but you're not even willing to provide money for consistent work? I don't know if you're more naive or hypocritical, but we employee people for a hell of a lot more than $15 an hour plus benefits and bonuses.

When it's understood from the get-go that it's some extra work and they're getting a decent wage for it, it's better than the pittance most employers out there offer. At least I don't cry about a few bucks in taxes going to help the less fortunate.

 

[ax1]

I like it but you still need a way to take care of those people who cannot work without demonizing them as leeches on society.

Progressives are in a tough spot they've been crapped on by both the right and the "moderate" corporatist, neoliberal left for the last 30 years or so.

There are bad apples that give stuff like unemployment a bad image. Society takes part in that as well.

As of now, people got a pay raise just to stay home, and I really dont think any of them have any fiscal desire to get back to work if the money keep rolling in and getting back to work means a pay cut. Cant blame them.

Then you have stuff like Ive witnessed when I used to work at a convenience store...people would come in and pay $40 in food stamps for garbage doritos and soda and then trash away $80 on booze, ciggs, and lottery tickets in the same sitting.

Then there was a big food stamp for cash sting at this gas station not long ago, people would give some $100 in food stamps in exchange of $60 cash so they can buy coke and heroin on the streets.

Progressives absolutely need ways to contribute to their concerns and double down on the prevention of exploration of social services to gain a little more respect and support from people like me. I think this is a reasonable request.

 

[ax1]

When it's understood from the get-go that it's some extra work and they're getting a decent wage for it, it's better than the pittance most employers out there offer. At least I don't cry about a few bucks in taxes going to help the less fortunate.

When helping the less fortunate requires an army of heavily armed bureaucrats to steal it from people who earned it, its certainly something to cry about.

And then if you dont comply they put you in a cage....and if you refuse to go in that cage, they will kill you.

 

[nostrum420]

There are bad apples that give stuff like unemployment a bad image. Society takes part in that as well.

As of now, people got a pay raise just to stay home, and I really dont think any of them have any fiscal desire to get back to work if the money keep rolling in and getting back to work means a pay cut. Cant blame them.

Then you have stuff like Ive witnessed when I used to work at a convenience store...people would come in and pay $40 in food stamps for garbage doritos and soda and then trash away $80 on booze, ciggs, and lottery tickets in the same sitting.

Then there was a big food stamp for cash sting at this gas station not long ago, people would give some $100 in food stamps in exchange of $60 cash so they can buy coke and heroin on the streets.

Progressives absolutely need ways to contribute to their concerns and double down on the prevention of exploration of social services to gain a little more respect and support from people like me. I think this is a reasonable request.

The thing is even though these examples are sticking out in your mind because they are egregious they are not the norm. When governments spend money on means testing to try to weed out this kind of abuse they end up spending more on that means testing than they save on rooting out abusers because most people who take advantage of these programs do so in earnest.

 

[nostrum420]

When helping the less fortunate requires armed bureaucrats to steal it from people who earned it, its certainly something to cry about.

And then if you dont comply they put you in a cage....and if you refuse to go in that cage, they will kill you.

Literally every policy is in forced under the threat of state violence. This ends up becoming an argument for lawlessness.

 

[ax1]

The thing is even though these examples are sticking out in your mind because they are egregious they are not the norm. When governments spend money on means testing to try to weed out this kind of abuse they end up spending more on that means testing than they save on rooting out abusers because most people who take advantage of these programs do so in earnest.

I used to be around ALOT of poor people. Both friends, family and myself.

I was one of them. I also had grown up in a fully immigrant welfare family that all used social services to get by.

I was an embarrassed food stamp kid growing up in school.

What I talk about from my own uprisings is very normal, I experienced it first hand. Its norm. I know many that did what they could to get a free paycheck.

But yes, its hard to take that away from my mind. Especially when I see someone getting food stamps driving a nicer car than I have.

 

[thebigt]

I like it but you still need a way to take care of those people who cannot work without demonizing them as leeches on society.

Progressives are in a tough spot they've been crapped on by both the right and the "moderate" corporatist, neoliberal left for the last 30 years or so.

if anyone demonizes people who CANNOT work they should be taken out behind the shed-seriously. but my aunt had polio as a child which left her legs paralyzed, she worked at goodwill as a seamstress until she retired at 65. there are few people who truly CANNOT work. but for those with mental/physical disabilities of course they should not be demonized.


progressives biggest issue is they have a bad platform. they should not be all in for destroying capitalism, but rather improving it. Bernie/aoc are bad choices for advancing the progressive movement, imo.

 

[ax1]

Literally every policy is in forced under the threat of state violence. This ends up becoming an argument for lawlessness.

Well, those who support forced charity should be the crimes law enforcement should be going after.

 

[nostrum420]

if anyone demonizes people who CANNOT work they should be taken out behind the shed-seriously. but my aunt had polio as a child which left her legs paralyzed, she worked at goodwill as a seamstress until she retired at 65. there are few people who truly CANNOT work. but for those with mental/physical disabilities of course they should not be demonized.


progressives biggest issue is they have a bad platform. they should not be all in for destroying capitalism, but rather improving it. Bernie/aoc are bad choices for advancing the progressive movement, imo.

How much time have you spent actually listening to these two. In general, what they're proposing is improvements to capitalism or stepping in with socialism in those few places where capitalism has failed.

Blue jeans are a great example of where capitalism has succeeded. You can get many different kinds of blue jeans most of which are good quality and you can get them at an affordable price. If you are of low means you can generally get free or very reduced priced jeans.

Health care is a place where capitalism has failed. Most people cannot get as much health care as they would like at a price that they can afford whereas people can get as many blue jeans as they want at a price that they can generally figure out a way to afford.

 

[nostrum420]

I used to be around ALOT of poor people. Both friends, family and myself.

I was one of them. I also had grown up in a fully immigrant welfare family that all used social services to get by.

I was an embarrassed food stamp kid growing up in school.

What I talk about from my own uprisings is very normal, I experienced it first hand. Its norm. I know many that did what they could to get a free paycheck.

But yes, its hard to take that away from my mind. Especially when I see someone getting food stamps driving a nicer car than I have.

You're extrapolating from your personal experiences. Can you show me empirical evidence that proves that most poor people make bad fiscal choices.?

 

[thebigt]

How much time have you spent actually listening to these two. In general, what they're proposing is improvements to capitalism or stepping in with socialism in those few places where capitalism has failed.

Blue jeans are a great example of where capitalism has succeeded. You can get many different kinds of blue jeans most of which are good quality and you can get them at an affordable price. If you are of low means you can generally get free or very reduced priced jeans.

Health care is a place where capitalism has failed. Most people cannot get as much health care as they would like at a price that they can afford whereas people can get as many blue jeans as they want at a price that they can generally figure out a way to afford.

why do you think companies don't give the kind of cheap insurance plans that they used to?

answer-because they don't have to, before this virus hit unemployment was at a all time low or close to it.

question-why do you think unemployment was so low?

question-do you think illegal immigration plays a role in keeping wages low?

I don't understand progressives, they want better wages and healthcare but they are pro-illegals---it is time to realize it is virtually impossible to have both!!!

 

[ax1]

Health care is a place where capitalism has failed. Most people cannot get as much health care as they would like at a price that they can afford whereas people can get as many blue jeans as they want at a price that they can generally figure out a way to afford.

Health care didnt fail because of capitalism, it failed because of massive government interventionism.

And people are begging for more interventionism? RROOFFLLLL

Ill stick to beg to bring Capitalism back and not punishing doctors at gunpoint for working hard.

 

[ax1]

You're extrapolating from your personal experiences. Can you show me empirical evidence that proves that most poor people make bad fiscal choices.?

That wont be possible.

How many trailer parks have you spent time in?

 

[ax1]

You're extrapolating from your personal experiences. Can you show me that proves that most poor people make bad fiscal choices.?

If you want empirical evidence, check out what happened to the Native Americans. They take in the most government funding out of any group on the USA and they all primarily do this shittiest with no end in sight. They have the highest poverty rate and shortest lifespans in the entire country.

Except....for the one Native group called the Lumbee Tribe the US Government refuses to label them as a legal sovereign tribe to qualify for funding.....they do really well and they dont even get casino rights.

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The greatest contributor to poverty is greater government interventionism.

 

[Aleksandar37]

When it's understood from the get-go that it's some extra work and they're getting a decent wage for it, it's better than the pittance most employers out there offer. At least I don't cry about a few bucks in taxes going to help the less fortunate.

Who's crying? You're getting mad now because you just admitted you're all talk and no experience. You rant on about the rich and corporations, but who do you think is going to pay for all of this? The dude who doesn't even have employees and wants to criticize those that do? No, it's going to be the people that actually take a chance and walk the walk by giving others the opportunity to earn a living. You've obviously read up on the subject, but have no real world experience to back it up.

 

[nostrum420]

why do you think companies don't give the kind of cheap insurance plans that they used to?

answer-because they don't have to, before this virus hit unemployment was at a all time low or close to it.

question-why do you think unemployment was so low?

question-do you think illegal immigration plays a role in keeping wages low?

I don't understand progressives, they want better wages and healthcare but they are pro-illegals---it is time to realize it is virtually impossible to have both!!!

Illegals here taking the jobs aren't so much the problem as allowing corporations to ship jobs directly to their home countries.

Do you think illegal immigration started in the late 70s?

 

[nostrum420]

Health care didnt fail because of capitalism, it failed because of massive government interventionism.

And people are begging for more interventionism? RROOFFLLLL

Ill stick to beg to bring Capitalism back and not punishing doctors at gunpoint for working hard.

Gub'mint baaaaad!

 

[nostrum420]

That wont be possible.

How many trailer parks have you spent time in?

Umm, a handful, I guess. What length of time are we talking about. Do you think people in trailer parks are the only ones in poverty?

 

[nostrum420]

Who's crying? You're getting mad now because you just admitted you're all talk and no experience. You rant on about the rich and corporations, but who do you think is going to pay for all of this? The dude who doesn't even have employees and wants to criticize those that do? No, it's going to be the people that actually take a chance and walk the walk by giving others the opportunity to earn a living. You've obviously read up on the subject, but have no real world experience to back it up.

And you think your individual experience is greater than empirical evidence. Ok, buddy.

 

[Aleksandar37]

And you think your individual experience is greater than empirical evidence. Ok, buddy.

My experience is empirical evidence. In fact the word empirical comes from the Greek word for experience. You have neither.

 

[thebigt]

Illegals here taking the jobs aren't so much the problem as allowing corporations to ship jobs directly to their home countries.

Do you think illegal immigration started in the late 70s?

what I think is things were better for my generation in part because my generations parents were hardasses on immigration. my generation was much more liberal than our parents generation...my generation allowed illegal immigration to become the issue it is by our liberalism...your generation thinks baby boomer are standing in the way of liberal progressive agenda, but you need to remember that my generation[baby boomers]were the original progressives in our youth--then we grew up and had families and realized what stupid dumbasses we had had been.

 

[thebigt]

what I think is things were better for my generation in part because my generations parents were hardasses on immigration. my generation was much more liberal than our parents generation...my generation allowed illegal immigration to become the issue it is by our liberalism...your generation thinks baby boomer are standing in the way of liberal progressive agenda, but you need to remember that my generation[baby boomers]were the original progressives in our youth--then we grew up and had families and realized what stupid dumbasses we had had been.

so, to answer your question yes, illegal immigration began to be a problem in 1976 the 1st year the voting age was lowered to 18. by the way that was 1st year I voted and I voted for carter.

 

[nostrum420]

My experience is empirical evidence. In fact the word empirical comes from the Greek word for experience. You have neither.

Lol reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeach. You know quite well that's not what empirical evidence means.

 

[nostrum420]

what I think is things were better for my generation in part because my generations parents were hardasses on immigration. my generation was much more liberal than our parents generation...my generation allowed illegal immigration to become the issue it is by our liberalism...your generation thinks baby boomer are standing in the way of liberal progressive agenda, but you need to remember that my generation[baby boomers]were the original progressives in our youth--then we grew up and had families and realized what stupid dumbasses we had had been.

I think the immigration problem is overblown and used as the scapegoat for bad corporate behavior. "It's not our fault we didn't give you a raise, benefits, etc. It's the immigrants." Meanwhile those same corporations are shipping the jobs directly to the immigrants' home countries.

 

[ax1]

Illegals here taking the jobs aren't so much the problem as allowing corporations to ship jobs directly to their home countries.

Do you think illegal immigration started in the late 70s?

Yeah I wonder why they are all trying to get the hell out of here, and then people bitch and complain they lost the jobs that at first they so willingly begged to have then shortly after wanting these companies to give them the world for nothing for the rest of their lives rather than collaborating to plan the inevitable to happen and coming out with better solutions to their personal problems.