Youtube fitness people and gear

BarryScott said:
It makes me sad when I go to the gym to squat, press, pull and maybe do some dips, chins and curls and see 140lbs kids doing lateral raises with 4kg dumbbells and 45 year old dyel-ers grunting through their fifth set of smith machine calf raises.
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The natural trainee really needs to focus on frequency of stimulation and stay far from annihilation (so they can come back sooner and re-stimulate).
 
BarryScott said:
It makes me sad when I go to the gym to squat, press, pull and maybe do some dips, chins and curls and see 140lbs kids doing lateral raises with 4kg dumbbells and 45 year old dyel-ers grunting through their fifth set of smith machine calf raises.
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Lmao - had one of these 140lb kids asking me some questions in the gym a few days ago. After 15 min of me explaining to him why he doesnt need an arm day just yet....stop calling 12 sets of curls a workout....looked at me like I was crazy. Mind you I was db military pressing enough that he couldn't pick up even 1 of them.....but I'm the crazy one. That's the majority!!
 
muscleupcrohn said:
“Chances are” they used in the 1940s? Go back and read the multiple articles and published academic papers I posted on the topic. Pre-1950 was almost undoubtably natural. Not to mention that the huge traps that are often associated with juice were nowhere to be found back then; their traps were very mundane relative to the rest of their bodies. Even Reeves, who was considered a genetic marvel even by Arnold for crying out loud.
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Well first of all I never claimed to know who's natty. You however said its *likely* they were. I said I'm speculating, you are obviously speculating when you say *likely*. Sorry but I'm having a hard time understanding your argument. I think it's very possible we have no idea what they were taking. Do we know who the first guy who ever took steroids was?
 
muscleupcrohn said:
The “average guy” knows nothing about nutrition or training, and doesn’t put in any real effort or dedication to anything; what do they have to do with anything at all?
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Well if you read who I was responding to it would make sense. A guy that apparentely has been taking a ton of steroids and it's impossible to say if he's on gear.
 
YoungThor said:
I don’t find that strange because the only guys we remember from back then were the very best in the world. They were at the top. But to be famous today all you have to do is make a YouTube account and promote yourself and before you know it guys on AM are wondering if your natty. To get widespread recognition in 1940 (to the point of still being talked about 80 years later) you had to be an absolute genetic freak. You had to be the best.
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Well let me ask you a followup question then. The majority of people didn't go to the gym. The competition back than was barely existing. It would make sense since there are probably a billion more people having access to great nutrition and food that would crush these guys easily right? Why do you think so many records in the Olympics are from the 80s, 60s,70s and nobody can beat them?. The steroids exist today but now countries like Jamaica, dominates while Germany that used to dominate is just an average nation. Everyone has access to gear now, a country like Germany with more people than Jamaica have much more testing and isn't as corrupt and therefore a small country like Jamaica is winning everything.

What I'm saying is that just because 99% of the world didn't have access to steroids before the 50s doesn't mean it didn't exist. It's literally impossible to know, we know they had less access and that also shows by the physique
 
Chados said:
Well first of all I never claimed to know who's natty. You however said its *likely* they were. I said I'm speculating, you are obviously speculating when you say *likely*. Sorry but I'm having a hard time understanding your argument. I think it's very possible we have no idea what they were taking. Do we know who the first guy who ever took steroids was?
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If I’m speculating, you’re super speculating. I have MULTIPLE sources, you have “well steroids technically existed, so maybe people used them.” Look at the pictures from 1941. From America in 1941 too I think. The EARLIEST anyone even claimed a FEW people experimented with testosterone was the late 1940s. Given that it mostly came from Europe, I HIGHLY doubt that people in America were getting testosterone from Europe DURING WW2 lol. It is highly improbable that anyone used them before the end of WWII.

Do I KNOW with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY? No. But my evidence that these guys were natural is much more compelling and likely than the evidence that anyone today is or isn’t natural. Call if speculation if you will, but it’s more likely speculation...
 
muscleupcrohn said:
If I’m speculating, you’re super speculating. I have MULTIPLE sources, you have “well steroids technically existed, so maybe people used them.” Look at the pictures from 1941. From America in 1941 too I think. The EARLIEST anyone even claimed a FEW people experimented with testosterone was the late 1940s. Given that it mostly came from Europe, I HIGHLY doubt that people in America were getting testosterone from Europe DURING WW2 lol. It is highly improbable that anyone used them before the end of WWII.

Do I KNOW with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY? No. But my evidence that these guys were natural is much more compelling and likely than the evidence that anyone today is or isn’t natural. Call if speculation if you will, but it’s more likely speculation...
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Okay so now it's there are different levels of speculations. I clearly said I'm speculating so I don't know why the need to correct me especially when you say the exact same thing. Steroids or testosterone dates back to the 30s, to assume that nobody used it until the 50s IS super speculation.
 
Chados said:
Okay so now it's there are different levels of speculations. I clearly said I'm speculating so I don't know why the need to correct me especially when you say the exact same thing. Steroids or testosterone dates back to the 30s, to assume that nobody used it until the 50s IS super speculation.
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Testosterone was a thing in the 30s. When was it feasible to use for months at bodybuilding doses? When was it even first used to build muscle? You think the day it was first isolated the scientists told their bodybuilding friends they should start injecting it to build muscle? Did you even read the articles and PUBLISHED PAPERS I linked man? You’re just throwing out “it’s theoretically possible.” So your 1% possibility is now as valid as my much more likely possibility?

You’re arguing about who you think is and isn’t natural in 2019 with NO way of knowing, or even any good leads, but I posted what is at the least most likely to be natural to show what a conservative upper limit would be and I’m speculating...
 
BarryScott brings up a great point. The training was different back then. One-hundred years ago there was no differentiation between all the strength sports. It was simply called physical culture and that included a combination of strongman, calisthenics, Olympic weightlifting, power lifting, bodybuilding. They did lifts from all of these disciplines and gained an incredible amount of strength in the process. Strength and physique training were inseparable. Now days everyone is segmented into these groups. We have bodybuilders who have incredible physiques but very unimpressive strength. And if you’re natty then strength and a good physique are still two inseparable entities (as long as you keep you’re body fat low). But then you have juice freaks like rich paina telling kids to do light tricep extension for 40-50 reps and they wonder why they don’t grow. You have to train heavy compound lifts if you’re natty. Our genetics are still the same as they were when Eugene Sandow was all the rage. People claim a decline in testosterone overtime but that natural decline that we’re seeing among our species in the developed world is statistically insignificant when it comes to bodybuilders because those numbers are based on averages across the entire population which means it takes into account the millions of fat a$$es out there. Fat people bring down that number because of course they have low test. Anyway I’m ranting now.

Here’s the Russian wrestler George Hackenschmidt from approximately 1900.

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West Coast bodybuilders began ex‐ perimenting with testosterone preparations in the late 1940s and early 1950s.
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http://cdn.intechopen.com/pdfs/410...teroids_application_in_sport_and_exercise.pdf

The introduction of AAS among the American athletes is attributed to Dr. John Ziegler (a physician-member of the U.S. Weight-Lifting Team) who learned about the use of AAS by the Russian team in 1954 during his trip to weight-lifting championships in Vienna (8). Upon his return, Dr. Ziegler experimented with testosterone on weight lifters in the York Babel Club in Pennsylvania. That is considered to be the beginning of AAS abuse in sports in the United States, which later spread from high-intensity strength-training games to sports such as field athletics, baseball, swimming, etc.
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https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/95/4/1533/2596379

So the earliest account in the US would be the late 1940s. Let’s go back and say 1945, which is even a bit earlier than the late 40s, and it’s unlikely that American bodybuilders were importing testosterone from Europe, especially from Germany or even Russia, during World War II. So the picture from 1947 MAY not be natural if you prescribe to the earliest timeline, but the ones from 1941 are almost certainly natural.

In 1929 Butenandt isolated 15mg of androsterone from an 15-25 THOUSAND LITERS of police man urine. So that’s not feasible to use at all.

Ruzicka then synthesized it in 1934, but it still wasn’t feasible to use.

“In 1935 Ka`roly Gyula David, E. Dingemanse, J. Freud and Ernst Laqueur, backed by the Organon Company in Oss, The Netherlands...” identified testosterone in the testes, so it wasn’t usable then either.

Later that year it was first synthesized from cholesterol, but that likely wasn’t even close to being feasible for bodybuilding cycles either.
https://www.jurology.com/doi/pdf/10.1097/00005392-200102000-00004

The first clinical trials began in 1937, so we KNOW that it wasn’t being used before then.
http://www.mvla.net/view/20926.pdf

It’s also unlikely it was available in quantities sufficient for bodybuilding use, and also unlikely that random bodybuilders would have had access to what was at the time a newly discovered hormone just starting to be used in clinical trials.

One of the earliest reports of the benefits of T administration in hypogonadal men was by Joseph Aub,19 who wrote in The New England Journal of Medicine in 1940.
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Source: “The History of Testosterone and the Evolution of its Therapeutic Potential”

It’s still rather unlikely that bodybuilders had access to it at sufficient doses to cycle effectively at this point (1940).

The following is the EARLIEST date I’ve been able to find:
After synthesis of the hormone, injectable prepa- rations for human use were developed, and shortly before the onset of World War II, clinical trials on testosterone were underway. Interest grew in the use of T for a variety of ailments ranging from sexual difficulties to the prevention of benign pro- static hypertrophy by Cuneo “using total testicular extract rather than androstenedione which is iso- lated from this extract.” [22]. By the end of World War II, the clinical picture of a syndrome named “male climacteric,” associated with low T levels was fully recognized [23]. The misuse of T started early and plagues the hormone to this day. T sub- stitution became so widely prescribed that, by the mid 1940s, warnings were already being sounded in medical journals about the indiscriminate use and abuse of the hormone [24].
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Source: “The Long and Tortuous History of the Discovery of Testosterone and Its Clinical Application”

So, assuming that some bodybuilders were WAY ahead of the medical understanding of testosterone and got doctors to prescribe it to them in higher doses to build muscle, it’s possible that they started, at the earliest, at the VERY END of the 1930s, or the beginning of the 1940s. It was likely used by at least some bodybuilders in the mid-late 40s, even more likely and prevalently in the early 50s, and definitely by the mid 50s.
 
Hell, look at Sandow in the 10-20s:
EUGEN-SANDOW-%E2%80%93-FATHER-OF-BODYBUILDING-296x500.jpg

Eugen-no11-e1469114258916-773x1024.jpg


Still quite solid except for his chest, which is logical considering it was all about shoulder pressing and the bench press as we know it wasn’t even conceived of yet.
 
I’m reading a book on Sandow right now. The picture with the leaf covering his junk is from the late 1880’s. I forget the exact year and I’m not gonna search the book for it but it was when he was about 21, so maybe 1888. That just makes his development even more incredible. And John Grimek had some very dense looking muscles and an all around great physique.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
http://cdn.intechopen.com/pdfs/410...teroids_application_in_sport_and_exercise.pdf


https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/95/4/1533/2596379

So the earliest account in the US would be the late 1940s. Let’s go back and say 1945, which is even a bit earlier than the late 40s, and it’s unlikely that American bodybuilders were importing testosterone from Europe, especially from Germany or even Russia, during World War II. So the picture from 1947 MAY not be natural if you prescribe to the earliest timeline, but the ones from 1941 are almost certainly natural.

In 1929 Butenandt isolated 15mg of androsterone from an 15-25 THOUSAND LITERS of police man urine. So that’s not feasible to use at all.

Ruzicka then synthesized it in 1934, but it still wasn’t feasible to use.

“In 1935 Ka`roly Gyula David, E. Dingemanse, J. Freud and Ernst Laqueur, backed by the Organon Company in Oss, The Netherlands...” identified testosterone in the testes, so it wasn’t usable then either.

Later that year it was first synthesized from cholesterol, but that likely wasn’t even close to being feasible for bodybuilding cycles either.
https://www.jurology.com/doi/pdf/10.1097/00005392-200102000-00004

The first clinical trials began in 1937, so we KNOW that it wasn’t being used before then.
http://www.mvla.net/view/20926.pdf

It’s also unlikely it was available in quantities sufficient for bodybuilding use, and also unlikely that random bodybuilders would have had access to what was at the time a newly discovered hormone just starting to be used in clinical trials.


Source: “The History of Testosterone and the Evolution of its Therapeutic Potential”

It’s still rather unlikely that bodybuilders had access to it at sufficient doses to cycle effectively at this point (1940).

The following is the EARLIEST date I’ve been able to find:

Source: “The Long and Tortuous History of the Discovery of Testosterone and Its Clinical Application”

So, assuming that some bodybuilders were WAY ahead of the medical understanding of testosterone and got doctors to prescribe it to them in higher doses to build muscle, it’s possible that they started, at the earliest, at the VERY END of the 1930s, or the beginning of the 1940s. It was likely used by at least some bodybuilders in the mid-late 40s, even more likely and prevalently in the early 50s, and definitely by the mid 50s.
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It says on Wikipedia that long estered testosterone was 1935 and medically used 1937. In the 50s long estered came out. It's not crazy to assume it was used before the 50s.

Also.. In the 1920s Sergio Voronoff transplanted testes from animals to men, but their effectiveness was disproven by the Royal Society of Medicine in 1927. Modern androgen therapy started when T was chemically synthesized independently in 1935 by Aldolf Butenandt and Leopold Ruzick
 
Chados said:
It says on Wikipedia that long estered testosterone was 1935 and medically used 1937. In the 50s long estered came out. It's not crazy to assume it was used before the 50s.

Also.. In the 1920s Sergio Voronoff transplanted testes from animals to men, but their effectiveness was disproven by the Royal Society of Medicine in 1927. Modern androgen therapy started when T was chemically synthesized independently in 1935 by Aldolf Butenandt and Leopold Ruzick
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I just posted 6 academic papers, and I think at least half of them had the full text available and linked for you and you respond by quoting back Wikipedia to me? You CLEARLY have no interest in actually having a meaningful discussion man...

You also clearly didn’t even read the entirety of my post you quoted, as I further clarified my views/explanation to include an updated timeline.

The LATE 30s is the earliest it could have been used for bodybuilding, with the first clinical trials beginning by 1937. It is unlikely that any bodybuilder had access to sufficient doses of testosterone before clinical trials began. I even quoted a source mentioning that it was being abused (although it didn’t say where, and it was being prescribed, but it’s possible some bodybuilders were among those abusing it) by the mid-40s, so some bodybuilders in some parts of the world likely used it by then. I’d imagine that bodybuilders probxvly weren’t using it before it was being prescribed to the general public, which would be a little after the early clinical trials, which would put it at the end of the 1930s st the earliest, probably the early 40s even.

I even bolded my updated conclusion at the end, which you clearly didn’t read, so here it is again:

So, assuming that some bodybuilders were WAY ahead of the medical understanding of testosterone and got doctors to prescribe it to them in higher doses to build muscle, it’s possible that they started, at the earliest, at the VERY END of the 1930s, or the beginning of the 1940s. It was likely used by at least some bodybuilders in the mid-late 40s, even more likely and prevalently in the early 50s, and definitely by the mid 50s.

I update my opinion when there is evidence, but you aren’t even interested in hearing anything except what you already know, as evidenced by you not even reading my post and quoting back what I just said to me from a less reputable source...
 
Hyde said:
The natural trainee really needs to focus on frequency of stimulation and stay far from annihilation (so they can come back sooner and re-stimulate).
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This is extremely important. Finding the perfect level of intensity and the perfect frequency of working out is paramount to steady growth and strength progress. I’ve been really into Mike Isreatel’s theories on volume lately. It’s got me constantly thinking about how much volume I need.
 
Hell, Grimek and Bachtell in 1936-37 were more muscular (besides the chest, as bench pressing was still not all that common or perfected yet) than some of the people that people say can’t be or aren’t likely to be natty. Yes, it’s possible that anyone today at any size uses or used, but many of these people are certainly not past what has been shown to be achievable without testosterone, and with inferior knowledge of diet, training, and equipment.
 
Bobby Pandour (1876-1914)
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Omar Isuf
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There is Omar compared to a guy that we 100% know was natty. What do you guys think?
 
LOL Omar is natty. If he is on gear then my whole life was a lie XD Bt seriously, look at him. 180 pounds, small arms, small delts. Small delts are kinda a giveaway for not being on aas (compared to other body parts that are well developed).

Also agree that most aas users don't look like they are on drugs. You have to do pretty strong cycles to actually look like you are on something and do a couple of them consistently and know what you are doing. Just simple test, tbol, ... cycles do very "little". Also genetics is a very big thing. I have a couple of friends who don't even lift and look better then some people that do lift, so there's that.

I was 170 pounds in my avatar and natty. That's 5 years back. Trained consistently and kept all my strength while on a cut. Could I do that now? No. I sleep very badly, have to much stress and never have enough energy to pull a decent workout. That's just life getting in the way for me. I could get to 180 natty at that %BF but that is probably it without devoting my life solely to it. Which is an important point. If you devote your whole life to something then you'll be better at it then most who only do it as a hobby.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
I just posted 6 academic papers, and I think at least half of them had the full text available and linked for you and you respond by quoting back Wikipedia to me? You CLEARLY have no interest in actually having a meaningful discussion man...

You also clearly didn’t even read the entirety of my post you quoted, as I further clarified my views/explanation to include an updated timeline.

The LATE 30s is the earliest it could have been used for bodybuilding, with the first clinical trials beginning by 1937. It is unlikely that any bodybuilder had access to sufficient doses of testosterone before clinical trials began. I even quoted a source mentioning that it was being abused (although it didn’t say where, and it was being prescribed, but it’s possible some bodybuilders were among those abusing it) by the mid-40s, so some bodybuilders in some parts of the world likely used it by then. I’d imagine that bodybuilders probxvly weren’t using it before it was being prescribed to the general public, which would be a little after the early clinical trials, which would put it at the end of the 1930s st the earliest, probably the early 40s even.

I even bolded my updated conclusion at the end, which you clearly didn’t read, so here it is again:

So, assuming that some bodybuilders were WAY ahead of the medical understanding of testosterone and got doctors to prescribe it to them in higher doses to build muscle, it’s possible that they started, at the earliest, at the VERY END of the 1930s, or the beginning of the 1940s. It was likely used by at least some bodybuilders in the mid-late 40s, even more likely and prevalently in the early 50s, and definitely by the mid 50s.

I update my opinion when there is evidence, but you aren’t even interested in hearing anything except what you already know, as evidenced by you not even reading my post and quoting back what I just said to me from a less reputable source...
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All that wasn't from Wikipedia but I still don't see the argument you're trying to create. All I said was that we don't know wether people used it before the 50s. Who cares if the bodybuilders knew the science? I don't think bodybuilders were the first to experiment with it, I'd assume that would be the doctors doing that on themselves or on bodybuilders or just average people. They started playing with way before the 30s and the actual testosterone used in medicin was in the 30s. Again I'm not arguing against you, you literally say it's *likely* they didn't and while I can agree with that it's also *likely* its the other way around.
 
Chados said:
All that wasn't from Wikipedia but I still don't see the argument you're trying to create. All I said was that we don't know wether people used it before the 50s. Who cares if the bodybuilders knew the science? I don't think bodybuilders were the first to experiment with it, I'd assume that would be the doctors doing that on themselves or on bodybuilders or just average people. They started playing with way before the 30s and the actual testosterone used in medicin was in the 30s. Again I'm not arguing against you, you literally say it's *likely* they didn't and while I can agree with that it's also *likely* its the other way around.
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Again, you didn’t even read my post... I amended my view to say that the earliest anyone could have used it for bodybuilding was the late 30s, with the early to mid 40s being more likely and prevalent, and it definitely being around and used in the early 50s. I then showed pics of guys from 1937 and earlier who are essentially incontrovertibly natural, and pretty much at least on par with some of the people who are doubted today.

Who played with testosterone way before the 30s man? It wasn’t even synthesized until the mid 30s. It literally could not have possibly been used before it was synthesized. Hell, it wasn’t even isolated until the early-mid 30s either, but no one was taking a plethora of piss or testicles and isolating enough to use for bodybuilding purposes then either. So the late 30s is the earliest it could have possibly been used.

Also, two opposite and opposing scenarios can’t both be likely lol.

Edit: to summarize:

-Pre 1937: essentially guaranteed to be natural

-Late 30s to early 40s: potential use, probably in Europe, not that likely or prominent though IMO

-Mid 40s: most likely at least some use at this time

-Early 50s: definitely use at this time
 
This argument is going nowhere fast haha. When historians find a bunch of sources and all seem to agree on facts, we need to take the experts word for it. We can’t just be like, “Well, how do we know Abe Lincoln died in 1865 when it could’ve been 1912?” The historians are the ones who make a living documenting historical facts so they’re are best source for information on the matter of these things and there’s no point in speculating random theories with absolutely no information to back it up like, “maybe testosterone was already being used before it was invented.” We have a good timeline for this and that’s what we have to go by or no rational argument can be had.
 
YoungThor said:
This argument is going nowhere fast haha. When historians find a bunch of sources and all seem to agree on facts, we need to take the experts word for it. We can’t just be like, “Well, how do we know Abe Lincoln died in 1865 when it could’ve been 1912?” The historians are the ones who make a living documenting historical facts so they’re are best source for information on the matter of these things and there’s no point in speculating random theories with absolutely no information to back it up like, “maybe testosterone was already being used before it was invented.” We have a good timeline for this and that’s what we have to go by or no rational argument can be had.
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This. The late 30s is the earliest it could have been used at all, with it becoming more likely it was used in the early 40s, probably likely by the mid 40s, and definitely used by the early 50s. This is supported by multiple academic papers, the invention, study, and trials of testosterone, and anecdotes from people involved.
 
And take a look at Bobby Pandour’s physique for a second to revel in the possibilities of humanity’s natural physical development. That guy has one of the greatest physiques I’ve ever seen even if you compare him to guys who use steroids.
 
YoungThor said:
And take a look at Bobby Pandour’s physique for a second to revel in the possibilities of humanity’s natural physical development. That guy has one of the greatest physiques I’ve ever seen even if you compare him to guys who use steroids.
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Exactly. And the bench press wasn’t even a thing back then, so training equipment and knowledge were both pretty primitive back then. With modern training equipment and knowledge, as well as modern nutrition knowledge and supplements, at least the genetically gifted should be able to surpass that.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Again, you didn’t even read my post... I amended my view to say that the earliest anyone could have used it for bodybuilding was the late 30s, with the early to mid 40s being more likely and prevalent, and it definitely being around and used in the early 50s. I then showed pics of guys from 1937 and earlier who are essentially incontrovertibly natural, and pretty much at least on par with some of the people who are doubted today.

Who played with testosterone way before the 30s man? It wasn’t even synthesized until the mid 30s. It literally could not have possibly been used before it was synthesized. Hell, it wasn’t even isolated until the early-mid 30s either, but no one was taking a plethora of piss or testicles and isolating enough to use for bodybuilding purposes then either. So the late 30s is the earliest it could have possibly been used.

Also, two opposite and opposing scenarios can’t both be likely lol.

Edit: to summarize:

-Pre 1937: essentially guaranteed to be natural

-Late 30s to early 40s: potential use, probably in Europe, not that likely or prominent though IMO

-Mid 40s: most likely at least some use at this time

-Early 50s: definitely use at this time
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I don't think anyone used it before the 30s but I can't guarantee it just because it wasn't used in medicine. Now do I trust the information it was probably not used before at least 1935-1937? Sure.

I mean while I absolutely think the picture of that last guy is indeed impressive if natural, the guy was still only 5.6 and weighed roughly 160. The pictures are full of shadows which also makes it look more than it is. Not taking anything away from the guy especially with the ****ty equipment etc they had back then. Still probably genetically superior to most but had he been on YouTube today in full HD I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be as hyped (yet) arguably questionably on roids.
 
Chados said:
I don't think anyone used it before the 30s but I can't guarantee it just because it wasn't used in medicine. Now do I trust the information it was probably not used before at least 1935-1937? Sure.

I mean while I absolutely think the picture of that last guy is indeed impressive if natural, the guy was still only 5.6 and weighed roughly 160. The pictures are full of shadows which also makes it look more than it is. Not taking anything away from the guy especially with the ****ty equipment etc they had back then. Still probably genetically superior to most but had he been on YouTube today in full HD I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be as hyped (yet) arguably questionably on roids.
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Testosterone was not even synthesized until 1935 or so. How the hell could it have been used before then???????

You’re telling me some schmuck bodybuilder no one has ever heard of discovered and synthesized testosterone before any scientist, but kept it secret even when the scientists who would later discover it won a Nobel prize for it? That’s beyond asinine. Maybe aliens came to earth and gave it to bodybuilders in the 20s?
 
Chados said:
I don't think anyone used it before the 30s but I can't guarantee it just because it wasn't used in medicine. Now do I trust the information it was probably not used before at least 1935-1937? Sure.

I mean while I absolutely think the picture of that last guy is indeed impressive if natural, the guy was still only 5.6 and weighed roughly 160. The pictures are full of shadows which also makes it look more than it is. Not taking anything away from the guy especially with the ****ty equipment etc they had back then. Still probably genetically superior to most but had he been on YouTube today in full HD I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be as hyped (yet) arguably questionably on roids.
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IF natural? The guy died over a decade before testosterone was even named for crying out loud!
 
It’s not that testosterone wasn’t used in medicine until the mid-30s, it was that it literally wasn’t identified or synthesized until then. How any bodybuilder could possibly have used it before it was discovered is some next level nonsense.
 
BEAST73 said:
I believe those guys was natty back then.
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Jeff Cavaliere has the best paying gig. He started early on youtube and is now making millions along with his supps line. I see so many guys trying to emulate him and they get no traction/followers like he has.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Testosterone was not even synthesized until 1935 or so. How the hell could it have been used before then???????

You’re telling me some schmuck bodybuilder no one has ever heard of discovered and synthesized testosterone before any scientist, but kept it secret even when the scientists who would later discover it won a Nobel prize for it? That’s beyond asinine. Maybe aliens came to earth and gave it to bodybuilders in the 20s?
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I said it probably wasn't used before 1935-1937 not that it was or that it had any effect. they could have done trials with hormones before testosteron. I also never said a bodybuilder created testosterone and I don't know where you got that from. A doctor or a scientist would be my bet obviously. You were arguing that they started in the 50s at least in the US which is pure speculation but it doesn't mean you're wrong, now you changed that to the 30s which doesn't have to be correct but very likely.

The isolation of gonadal steroids can be traced back to 1931, when Adolf Butenandt, a chemist in Marburg, purified 15 milligrams of the male hormone androstenone from tens of thousands of litres of urine. This steroid was subsequently synthesized in 1934 by Leopold Ružička, a chemist in Zurich.[201]

In the 1930s, it was already known that the testes contain a more powerful androgen than androstenone, and three groups of scientists, funded by competing pharmaceutical companies in the Netherlands, Germany, and Switzerland, raced to isolate it.[201][202] This hormone was first identified by Karoly Gyula David, E. Dingemanse, J. Freud and Ernst Laqueur in a May 1935 paper "On Crystalline Male Hormone from Testicles (Testosterone)."[203] They named the hormone testosterone.

Clinical trials on humans, involving either oral doses of methyltestosterone or injections of testosterone propionate, began as early as 1937.[201] Testosterone propionate is mentioned in a letter to the editor of Strength and Health magazine in 1938; this is the earliest known reference to an AAS in a U.S. weightlifting or bodybuilding magazine.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
IF natural? The guy died over a decade before testosterone was even named for crying out loud!
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You really love to cherry pick and take everything that could benefit you as literal as possible don't you? I have no doubts the guy was natural, he was a quite small guy, thick and short and in black and white photos. Obviously a freaking beast given the time period and even today it would be remarkable, but again he was 5.6.
 
Chados said:
I said it probably wasn't used before 1935-1937 not that it was or that it had any effect. they could have done trials with hormones before testosteron. I also never said a bodybuilder created testosterone and I don't know where you got that from. A doctor or a scientist would be my bet obviously. You were arguing that they started in the 50s at least in the US which is pure speculation but it doesn't mean you're wrong, now you changed that to the 30s which doesn't have to be correct but very likely.

The isolation of gonadal steroids can be traced back to 1931, when Adolf Butenandt, a chemist in Marburg, purified 15 milligrams of the male hormone androstenone from tens of thousands of litres of urine. This steroid was subsequently synthesized in 1934 by Leopold Ružička, a chemist in Zurich.[201]

In the 1930s, it was already known that the testes contain a more powerful androgen than androstenone, and three groups of scientists, funded by competing pharmaceutical companies in the Netherlands, Germany, and Switzerland, raced to isolate it.[201][202] This hormone was first identified by Karoly Gyula David, E. Dingemanse, J. Freud and Ernst Laqueur in a May 1935 paper "On Crystalline Male Hormone from Testicles (Testosterone)."[203] They named the hormone testosterone.

Clinical trials on humans, involving either oral doses of methyltestosterone or injections of testosterone propionate, began as early as 1937.[201] Testosterone propionate is mentioned in a letter to the editor of Strength and Health magazine in 1938; this is the earliest known reference to an AAS in a U.S. weightlifting or bodybuilding magazine.
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I amended my claim to include the 30-40s several posts ago man...

TESTOSTERONE could not have been used before 1935. Period. It wasn’t known, identified, or synthesized before then, period...

A puny 15mg first gonadal steroid was isolated from 15,000+ liters of goddamned piss in 1931. This was incontrovertibly not usable for bodybuilders. In before someone used more than a freaking concrete mixing truck drum (or ~70 bathtubs) full of piss to get much less than a single dose...

You just further proved that no one was using any hormonal steroids to build muscle in 1931.

Why the hell are you quoting things back to me that I showed to you several pages ago?
 
I think you can make the argument that over the last 120 years bodybuilding knowledge has actually regressed rather than advanced. If you’d have told the strongmen/bodybuilders of Sandow’s era that they can only work each muscle once a week they’d have laughed at you. They’d have asked, “How am I supposed to make a living?” They put on strength shows several times a week and even trained on their free time. This included a lot of heavy compound lifts. Today we have people offering advice like this: blast the biceps and triceps with 20 sets each and then let them rest for seven days. Well what’s the point of that? Protein synthesis will increase in the muscle for 24 to maybe 72 hours and then you’re just not doing anything for the remainder of the week. Sure you might be sore five days later but that doesn’t mean your growing. So the constant reiteration of the threat of overtraining and the importance of bro-splits has been beat into our heads by this point but that doesn’t mean it’s actually helped progress our understanding of muscle building and strength training. If anything, I believe it has stunted our progress. You should stimulate the muscle a couple times a week rather than annihilate it once, and you should favor heavy compound work over light isolation work. But there should also be variety in your training. These guys also did calisthenics and Olympic lifts like the clean and jerk. They were more broad minded about training in general.
 
Hell, Bobby’s arms were bigger, leaner, and more vascular than Omar’s, Alan’s, and arguably Alex’s. Of the four guys that we are now talking about, the guy who died before any steroidal hormones were even isolated had bigger arms, more vascularity, and was leaner than three of them. His chest just wasn’t as developed because the bench press wasn’t even a thing at the time and working chest was not nearly as common as overhead pressing movements.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
You said he was impressive if natural. Why say IF when he was incontrovertibly natural?
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Well what you quoted (if so was on Wikipedia) which apparentelt wasn't a good source. Regardless you can chose to read it however you want, my message to you was - >I don't know wether he was natural but (IF) so, (IF) he was actually born after the possible time of steroid or testosterone usage its still impressive.

You are creating an argument without any reasoning to it. The only thing to argue which we did earlier which I was correct on and you were wrong was that it could have existed way before 1950 in the US. I mean you've been saying I'd didn't for months or even years as far as I can remember and it took me only about 5 minutes to find out that wasn't true, and instead of saying okay maybe people could have juiced in the 50s you say no it wasn't used before the 30s. I'm new to this subject, I had no idea actually but YOU have been debating this forever. I learned about as much as you did in this thread so the least you can do is to drop a tiny bit of that cockiness and throw in some humblepie for the post workout meal. After all it's Friday so let's enjoy ourselves.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Hell, Bobby’s arms were bigger, leaner, and more vascular than Omar’s, Alan’s, and arguably Alex’s. Of the four guys that we are now talking about, the guy who died before any steroidal hormones were even isolated had bigger arms, more vascularity, and was leaner than three of them. His chest just wasn’t as developed because the bench press wasn’t even a thing at the time and working chest was not nearly as common as overhead pressing movements.
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Yeah well that just goes to show he's shorter and arguably have more genetics. Even if all these are natural which is possible, there are still thousands of juicers with small muscles. Dylan gemelli is jacked and skinny but seems to have been doing 2000 cycles. Food is what create size not steroids.
 
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