Youtube fitness people and gear

[johnl1800]

"The History of Steroids in Bodybuilding"

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Very good analysis of the subject by Casey Butt. Here are some of the highlights:

"Periodically on the various internet bodybuilding forums someone makes a completely baseless statement about steroid use, when it started, and who was using them back in the 'old days'...All reliable sources...indicate that experimentation with testosterone for athletic purposes began in the U.S. sometime in either late 1954 or 1955.

no bodybuilder or lifter was using synthetic steroids before 1956 - they didn't exist. Most likely, only the very highest level West Coast bodybuilders knew of them by 1958....As for testosterone itself, Paul de Kruif's 1945 book "The Male Hormone" is often cited as "proof" that bodybuilders knew of and were using testosterone in the 1940s. But even though testosterone had been identified by researchers and isolated in laboratory settings as early as the 1930s, it didn't receive FDA approval as a prescription drug until 1950 and, therefore, injectable testosterone was produced only sporadically and in small batches for research purposes,

For a western bodybuilder or lifter to be using testosterone before late 1954/1955 he would had to have known more about the biochemistry of testosterone and it's potential athletic effects than any western sports physician - and have had access to what was then a relatively rarely used prescription drug.

For these reasons it can be stated with near certainty that Steve Reeves, Clancy Ross, John Grimek, Jack Delinger, Reg Park, John Farbotnik, George Eiferman, etc - who all won major physique titles before the Soviets began using testosterone and before synthetic steroids were introduced in 1956 - were not using bioavailable testosterone or synthetic steroids at the time of their Mr. America, Mr. USA and Mr. Universe wins. Furthermore, it is unlikely that any major title winner was a steroid user before 1957-58"

 

[bigbeaph]

"The History of Steroids in Bodybuilding"

Invalid Link Removed

Very good analysis of the subject by Casey Butt. Here are some of the highlights:

"Periodically on the various internet bodybuilding forums someone makes a completely baseless statement about steroid use, when it started, and who was using them back in the 'old days'...All reliable sources...indicate that experimentation with testosterone for athletic purposes began in the U.S. sometime in either late 1954 or 1955.

no bodybuilder or lifter was using synthetic steroids before 1956 - they didn't exist. Most likely, only the very highest level West Coast bodybuilders knew of them by 1958....As for testosterone itself, Paul de Kruif's 1945 book "The Male Hormone" is often cited as "proof" that bodybuilders knew of and were using testosterone in the 1940s. But even though testosterone had been identified by researchers and isolated in laboratory settings as early as the 1930s, it didn't receive FDA approval as a prescription drug until 1950 and, therefore, injectable testosterone was produced only sporadically and in small batches for research purposes,

For a western bodybuilder or lifter to be using testosterone before late 1954/1955 he would had to have known more about the biochemistry of testosterone and it's potential athletic effects than any western sports physician - and have had access to what was then a relatively rarely used prescription drug.

For these reasons it can be stated with near certainty that Steve Reeves, Clancy Ross, John Grimek, Jack Delinger, Reg Park, John Farbotnik, George Eiferman, etc - who all won major physique titles before the Soviets began using testosterone and before synthetic steroids were introduced in 1956 - were not using bioavailable testosterone or synthetic steroids at the time of their Mr. America, Mr. USA and Mr. Universe wins. Furthermore, it is unlikely that any major title winner was a steroid user before 1957-58"

I dont believe anything from someone named "Mr. Butt"

 

[DemntedCowboy]

"The History of Steroids in Bodybuilding"

Invalid Link Removed

Very good analysis of the subject by Casey Butt. Here are some of the highlights:

"Periodically on the various internet bodybuilding forums someone makes a completely baseless statement about steroid use, when it started, and who was using them back in the 'old days'...All reliable sources...indicate that experimentation with testosterone for athletic purposes began in the U.S. sometime in either late 1954 or 1955.

no bodybuilder or lifter was using synthetic steroids before 1956 - they didn't exist. Most likely, only the very highest level West Coast bodybuilders knew of them by 1958....As for testosterone itself, Paul de Kruif's 1945 book "The Male Hormone" is often cited as "proof" that bodybuilders knew of and were using testosterone in the 1940s. But even though testosterone had been identified by researchers and isolated in laboratory settings as early as the 1930s, it didn't receive FDA approval as a prescription drug until 1950 and, therefore, injectable testosterone was produced only sporadically and in small batches for research purposes,

For a western bodybuilder or lifter to be using testosterone before late 1954/1955 he would had to have known more about the biochemistry of testosterone and it's potential athletic effects than any western sports physician - and have had access to what was then a relatively rarely used prescription drug.

For these reasons it can be stated with near certainty that Steve Reeves, Clancy Ross, John Grimek, Jack Delinger, Reg Park, John Farbotnik, George Eiferman, etc - who all won major physique titles before the Soviets began using testosterone and before synthetic steroids were introduced in 1956 - were not using bioavailable testosterone or synthetic steroids at the time of their Mr. America, Mr. USA and Mr. Universe wins. Furthermore, it is unlikely that any major title winner was a steroid user before 1957-58"

Makes perfect since....Cause we all know "No" bodybuilder would ever use a "Research Chemical" on his squidmonkeyratapottumus.
Ain't that right guys! Lol

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Makes perfect since....Cause we all know "No" bodybuilder would ever use a "Research Chemical" on his squidmonkeyratapottumus.
Ain't that right guys! Lol

I think we beat this thread to death with references already. We know testosterone wasn’t used until 1935 at the absolute earliest, and was definitely used in America by the early 50s, and probably earlier in Europe than in America. Anything in between is not quite certain, but it gets more likely the later the date.

 

[YoungThor]

"The History of Steroids in Bodybuilding"

Invalid Link Removed

Very good analysis of the subject by Casey Butt. Here are some of the highlights:

"Periodically on the various internet bodybuilding forums someone makes a completely baseless statement about steroid use, when it started, and who was using them back in the 'old days'...All reliable sources...indicate that experimentation with testosterone for athletic purposes began in the U.S. sometime in either late 1954 or 1955.

no bodybuilder or lifter was using synthetic steroids before 1956 - they didn't exist. Most likely, only the very highest level West Coast bodybuilders knew of them by 1958....As for testosterone itself, Paul de Kruif's 1945 book "The Male Hormone" is often cited as "proof" that bodybuilders knew of and were using testosterone in the 1940s. But even though testosterone had been identified by researchers and isolated in laboratory settings as early as the 1930s, it didn't receive FDA approval as a prescription drug until 1950 and, therefore, injectable testosterone was produced only sporadically and in small batches for research purposes,

For a western bodybuilder or lifter to be using testosterone before late 1954/1955 he would had to have known more about the biochemistry of testosterone and it's potential athletic effects than any western sports physician - and have had access to what was then a relatively rarely used prescription drug.

For these reasons it can be stated with near certainty that Steve Reeves, Clancy Ross, John Grimek, Jack Delinger, Reg Park, John Farbotnik, George Eiferman, etc - who all won major physique titles before the Soviets began using testosterone and before synthetic steroids were introduced in 1956 - were not using bioavailable testosterone or synthetic steroids at the time of their Mr. America, Mr. USA and Mr. Universe wins. Furthermore, it is unlikely that any major title winner was a steroid user before 1957-58"

Good find.

 

[johnl1800]

Makes perfect since....Cause we all know "No" bodybuilder would ever use a "Research Chemical" on his squidmonkeyratapottumus.
Ain't that right guys! Lol

A bodybuilder wanting to experiment with research chemicals and actually gaining access to them are two different things. Some of the pre-1954/55 bodybuilders and weight lifters likely might have experimented with testosterone and steroids if they were readily available to them (which they weren't).

Also keep in mind that bodybuilding at this time was not very popular or well known so there wasn't a whole lot of incentive for the competitors to go around risking their health ingesting or injecting then experimental chemicals with little idea of what they would or could do or what they could expect in the way of health risks or side effects.

Bodybuilding at this time was still not far removed from the "physical culture" era where exercising in general, lifting weights in particular, was seen as a healthy lifestyle and the participants were generally portrayed as "health nuts" by the mainstream media. The extreme mindset of "Do anything to win at all costs." and "As long as I get BIG that's all that matters, I don't care about the consequences." that we see in modern bodybuilding was still some ways off.

 

[YoungThor]

A bodybuilder wanting to experiment with research chemicals and actually gaining access to them are two different things. Some of the pre-1954/55 bodybuilders and weight lifters likely might have experimented with testosterone and steroids if they were readily available to them (which they weren't).

Also keep in mind that bodybuilding at this time was not very popular or well known so there wasn't a whole lot of incentive for the competitors to go around risking their health ingesting or injecting then experimental chemicals with little idea of what they would or could do or what they could expect in the way of health risks or side effects.

Bodybuilding at this time was still not far removed from the "physical culture" era where exercising in general, lifting weights in particular, was seen as a healthy lifestyle and the participants were generally portrayed as "health nuts" by the mainstream media. The extreme mindset of "Do anything to win at all costs." and "As long as I get BIG that's all that matters, I don't care about the consequences." that we see in modern bodybuilding was still some ways off.

True that. Now days the majority of top pros are actually unhealthy but in the early days bodybuilding was a pursuit toward big muscles, and great health.

 

[BEAST73]

I was reading and watching YouTube,and a lot of bodybuilders back then was eating raw red meat.

 

[BloodManor]

I was reading and watching YouTube,and a lot of bodybuilders back then was eating raw red meat.

And raw eggs - but now we know that the white part is useless to us unless it’s cooked

 

[muscleupcrohn]

And raw eggs - but now we know that the white part is useless to us unless it’s cooked

So what you’re saying is to only drink raw yolks?

 

[muscleupcrohn]

And is pasteurized enough “cooking?”

 

[johnl1800]

in the early days bodybuilding was a pursuit toward big muscles, and great health.

Compare the attitude and quotes from someone like Jack Lalanne: "Exercise is King, nutrition is Queen, put them together and you’ve got a kingdom...People don’t die of old age, they die of inactivity...Work at living and you don’t have to die tomorrow...Your health account is like your bank account: The more you put in, the more you can take out...Eat right and you can’t go wrong."

And compare that to someone like Arnold who once supposedly stated that he "would eat a kilo of $#@t if it would add a pound of muscle" or anything that Rich Piana said in his many videos.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Compare the attitude and quotes from someone like Jack Lalanne: "Exercise is King, nutrition is Queen, put them together and you’ve got a kingdom...People don’t die of old age, they die of inactivity...Work at living and you don’t have to die tomorrow...Your health account is like your bank account: The more you put in, the more you can take out...Eat right and you can’t go wrong."

And compare that to someone like Arnold who once supposedly stated that he "would eat a kilo of $#@t if it would add a pound of muscle" or anything that Rich Piana said in his many videos.

Arnold was known for, and admitted to, greatly exaggerating his claims to augment his persona and image. Many golden era bodybuilders are still in pretty great shape, ESPECIALLY compared to the average American their age.

 

[YoungThor]

Arnold was known for, and admitted to, greatly exaggerating his claims to augment his persona and image. Many golden era bodybuilders are still in pretty great shape, ESPECIALLY compared to the average American their age.

But Arnold isn’t one of them. He might seem to be in good shape because of his appearance and how much weight he can lift but he’s had at least two intense heart surgeries. The first one was when he was only 49. All that exercise and he almost died of heart complications before the age of 50. His bodybuilding pursuits lead down an unhealthy path.

 

[swimfan65]

Yeah we grossly underestimate what’s naturally possible now days. We’d rather be cyclical and just assume everyone uses gear because...well Instagram and YouTube exist. But the truth is, some people are big and strong and they don’t give a shyt about impressing the masses. And luckily we can take a glance at history to see examples of these extreme physical specimens who didn’t even have the opportunity to “cheat” and trick people by using anabolic drugs. But our DNA hasn’t changed over the last hundred years so those physiques are still possible. The only difference is that today you have to view staying natty as a moral feat, or at least see it as safer long term, otherwise you’ll likely start using anabolic drugs because why wouldn’t you? It enhances the hobby and seems to be everywhere now days. Either way I immensely respect the strongmen and bodybuilders who existed before steroids, and at the same time we can’t just automatically assume everyone is juicing.

......But Jeff Cavalier was the strength and conditioning coach for the Mets during an era when the whole team was on steroids and I have to think Jeff was partially responsible for this and possibly using them himself. And then he quickly got out when the steroid era hit the media hard and opted to make YouTube videos and sell products instead of get that guaranteed paycheck from a pro sports team. That’s fishy.

Yep..take gear out of the equation. The worlds strongest men would still be the worlds strongest men...just 80 pounds lighter. Genetics, training, and food consumption all done to the absolute maximum possible effort...well except for genetics.

 

[Chados]

But Arnold isn’t one of them. He might seem to be in good shape because of his appearance and how much weight he can lift but he’s had at least two intense heart surgeries. The first one was when he was only 49. All that exercise and he almost died of heart complications before the age of 50. His bodybuilding pursuits lead down an unhealthy path.

Maybe but everyone doesn't react the same to it. It's possible that would have happened anyway and it's also possible it's because of the lifestyle. Some people drink and smoke and lives to 90.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

But Arnold isn’t one of them. He might seem to be in good shape because of his appearance and how much weight he can lift but he’s had at least two intense heart surgeries. The first one was when he was only 49. All that exercise and he almost died of heart complications before the age of 50. His bodybuilding pursuits lead down an unhealthy path.

I see what you’re saying, but do we know for a fact that these surgeries wouldn’t have happened? I know it seems unlikely, but people have had surgeries in their 40s, and some of them never used AAS at all. My point was more that, even if he had serious setbacks, he’s now 70+ and seems to be doing a lot better than the average 70 year old.

But Zane and Robby Robinson are still in insane shape today, among others I’m forgetting.

But Ed Corney did die this year at 85 of a brain aneurism. But 85 is not young, and that doesn’t really sound like it was caused by steroids.

I guess my point is that while they did use steroids, I don’t think they were at the point of using as much drugs as possible to make gains that many people today are. But they were not at the physical culture level where everything was to be healthy.

I think Arnold once even said he forgets to take his vitamins sometimes, and that he isn’t on a health trip haha.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Maybe but everyone doesn't react the same to it. It's possible that would have happened anyway and it's also possible it's because of the lifestyle. Some people drink and smoke and lives to 90.

This. Plus, all things equal, Arnold is now in better shape and has a much better quality of life than the average 71 year old for sure.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Robby Robinson at 71:

Old pic, but Frank Zane at 64:

So one could argue that even if they only live to 75-80 instead of 85, which we don’t know yet, is living in great shape and quality of life until 75-80 better than living to 90 with the last 30 years being miserable?

 

[bigbeaph]

But Arnold isn’t one of them. He might seem to be in good shape because of his appearance and how much weight he can lift but he’s had at least two intense heart surgeries. The first one was when he was only 49. All that exercise and he almost died of heart complications before the age of 50. His bodybuilding pursuits lead down an unhealthy path.

I remember listening to the dr that did Arnold's first surgery. Said it was 100% genetic and it ran in his family. Doc said it was unavoidable and it was amazing he lasted til 49 til he needed the surgery. I'll see if I can find it but I think it was the nation's leading cardiac surgeon out of TCU maybe.

 

[Old Witch]

Robby Robinson at 71:

Old pic, but Frank Zane at 64:

So one could argue that even if they only live to 75-80 instead of 85, which we don’t know yet, is living in great shape and quality of life until 75-80 better than living to 90 with the last 30 years being miserable?

Why’s ol Robby got that dog in a headlock?

 

[Jinsun]

Why’s ol Robby got that dog in a headlock?

Gotta keep that chit tight or it runs away on you

 

[BlockBuilder]

That’s great for Robby but without gear he would NEVER in a million lifetimes look anywhere close to that naturally at 71. No way no how. So yes the drugs are impressive IMO. The drugs are more impressive to me than his work ethic, diet etc because without the drugs that physique at his age is impossible regardless of how perfect EVERYTHING else is

 

[muscleupcrohn]

That’s great for Robby but without gear he would NEVER in a million lifetimes look anywhere close to that naturally at 71. No way no how. So yes the drugs are impressive IMO. The drugs are more impressive to me than his work ethic, diet etc because without the drugs that physique at his age is impossible regardless of how perfect EVERYTHING else is

Of course he wouldn’t. No one suggested he could. The point was that there are different levels of drug use in bodybuilding, and the golden era guys tended to do less extreme cycles and use than today’s guys did. I’d bet you won’t see many/any of today’s top pros looking like that at 70. My point was more that as bodybuilding evolved, it went from the original physical culture where health was paramount, to using drugs, to outright abusing them today.

Also, how are the drugs more impressive than him busting his ass consistently for half a century? Give 95% of people today in their 20s or 30s drugs and they won’t look like he does NOW, forget what he looked like when he competed.

To not just have an amazing physique for a few years and then fade out, but to maintain it for ~50 years is insane, and something that essentially no one, or only a handful of people ever, have done is insanely impressive. How many people had access to the drugs he did? A plethora. How many came close to his peak OR his consistency and persistence? Not many. How many did both? A handful at best...

 

[muscleupcrohn]

The point was to show how drug use in bodybuilding has evolved over time, where it was at least sustainable for a lot of guys back then, to the point now where we may not even see today’s pros get to 71, forget be in that shape at 71.

 

[BEAST73]

Gear will help,but at the end of the day it’s all about Knowledge,Eating,Hard Work,Recovery,and Genetics.

 

[Jinsun]

Also, how are the drugs more impressive than him busting his ass consistently for half a century? Give 95% of people today in their 20s or 30s drugs and they won’t look like he does NOW, forget what he looked like when he competed.

That is very much true. He's a freak even now.

 

[BlockBuilder]

Of course he wouldn’t. No one suggested he could. The point was that there are different levels of drug use in bodybuilding, and the golden era guys tended to do less extreme cycles and use than today’s guys did. I’d bet you won’t see many/any of today’s top pros looking like that at 70. My point was more that as bodybuilding evolved, it went from the original physical culture where health was paramount, to using drugs, to outright abusing them today.

Also, how are the drugs more impressive than him busting his ass consistently for half a century? Give 95% of people today in their 20s or 30s drugs and they won’t look like he does NOW, forget what he looked like when he competed.

To not just have an amazing physique for a few years and then fade out, but to maintain it for ~50 years is insane, and something that essentially no one, or only a handful of people ever, have done is insanely impressive. How many people had access to the drugs he did? A plethora. How many came close to his peak OR his consistency and persistence? Not many. How many did both? A handful at best...

Here’s a fun fact for you. If he never used steroids you wouldn’t even know this guy existed today. That’s how important steroids are in bodybuilding. If a natural trains his ass off he still gets mediocre results compared to guys on gear and they Never ever achieve the level of admiration that juicers get. I’ve seen plenty of naturals who train harder than guys on gear and get less results. He’ll most of the best looking juicers at my gym spend more time talking than lifting

 

[Chados]

Here’s a fun fact for you. If he never used steroids you wouldn’t even know this guy existed today. That’s how important steroids are in bodybuilding. If a natural trains his ass off he still gets mediocre results compared to guys on gear and they Never ever achieve the level of admiration that juicers get. I’ve seen plenty of naturals who train harder than guys on gear and get less results. He’ll most of the best looking juicers at my gym spend more time talking than lifting

Goes both ways true.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Here’s a fun fact for you. If he never used steroids you wouldn’t even know this guy existed today. That’s how important steroids are in bodybuilding. If a natural trains his ass off he still gets mediocre results compared to guys on gear and they Never ever achieve the level of admiration that juicers get. I’ve seen plenty of naturals who train harder than guys on gear and get less results. He’ll most of the best looking juicers at my gym spend more time talking than lifting

This post, and this logic, is asinine, fallacious, ignorant, and any number of other similar insulting words you’d care to think of...

Robby was among the best bodybuilders in the world when he competed, and that includes everyone in the world who were ALSO using steroids, and they were legal at the time no less. He was the best of the best back then, even compared to other steroid users, and compared to all but the elite pros today who use steroids and GH and insulin. He was still better than >99% of people that use steroids AND HGH AND insulin today. Plus he didn’t just have a few years at the top, he managed to be damn insane for half a century. Most people would be lucky to look like he does at 71 when they’re 30, and most 30 year olds who use drugs will never even look like he does at 71, let alone when he was 30.

Yeah, plenty or natty guys train harder than plenty of juicers, but to suggest that someone like Robby didn’t train hard because he’s on gear is asinine. If anything, gear will allow you to train HARDER and LONGER than you can feasibly and sustainably do naturally.

Go take all the drugs you want. Use steroids, HGH, and insulin, and I’ll bet you any amount of money you’ll NEVER come close to looking like Robby did in his prime. So yes, he needed steroids to get to where is was/is, but even 9999/10000 people who used more drugs than him couldn’t even hold a candle to him, either in peak shape or in terms of longevity.

He was the best of the best, when everyone used steroids; if steroids didn’t exist, he’d still be the best of the best, just smaller. Your logic is bad man. Right, what you see at your random gym is indicative of what Robby did to train? You see some lazy juicers who probably haven’t even won an amateur competition, yet alone a pro one, and you think it has any relevance on some of the greatest bodybuilders of all time? Right...

Why are you on ANABOLIC minds anyway if you have such open disdain for bodybuilders who use(d) steroids? You hate Arnold too? Zane? Reeves? Oliva?

 

[muscleupcrohn]

He wasn’t just some bum who built a decent physique with steroids. He was among the best in the world in the golden era, when EVERYONE used steroids, and managed to stay at levels above 99% of steroid users even today for half a century. Such a high peak paired with such longevity is something we almost never see. It’s not like he was the only one using steroids, he was an elite pro then, and outlasted basically everyone, and still looks better than 99% of juicers today, and he’s old enough to be their grandfather. Yeah, he did nothing alright...

 

[muscleupcrohn]

You can say the same thing about Arnold. No steroids, no Arnold. See how stupid that sounds? But no Arnold, and half of us probably ever even join a gym to lift weights and build muscle. And Arnold beat everyone else who also used steroids; it’s not like he had a naturally attainable physique and used steroids to make it easier; he blew past natural limits and steroids were a necessity to get there. He trained harder and longer than basically anyone, and this was possible because of the steroids, but he still put in years of intense work that most people never have.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

If we’re giving admiration to juicers who look big but not elite, then yeah, I understand why it can be sort of misplaced admiration, but giving admiration to the best of the best in a sport where literally everyone uses steroids by definition? That’s not misplaced.

So giving a ton of admiration to a moron like Boston Loyd is of course asinine, and even giving it to other people who have solid and respectable bodybuilding physiques but aren’t competitive or elite can be misplaced, but would you really say giving admiration to an Arnold, Haney, Yates, or Coleman is misplaced admiration? That’s silly.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Especially since it’s essentially impossible to tell who is natural today, as anyone can claim anything, even small people use gear sometimes, and even people who compete in testes leagues or events also use/used gear, it’s sort of understandable for people to gravitate to the biggest and freakiest people, as there’s no guarantee that the guy who claims to be an elite natty isn’t just a subpar user. It’s sad, but it is what it is.

 

[Chados]

Especially since it’s essentially impossible to tell who is natural today, as anyone can claim anything, even small people use gear sometimes, and even people who compete in testes leagues or events also use/used gear, it’s sort of understandable for people to gravitate to the biggest and freakiest people, as there’s no guarantee that the guy who claims to be an elite natty isn’t just a subpar user. It’s sad, but it is what it is.

Having used steroids I can only say this. Everyone will fail on a first cycle and most will not get nearly as much out of the other 10 cycles because they overthink macros and calories. Some people don't want to be huge just jacked. If you want to be Dorian Yates you have to eat beyond what you thought was possible, you have to work out much harder then you are right now. Sure you probably won't get there but that's how you have to do it to have a chance.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Having used steroids I can only say this. Everyone will fail on a first cycle and most will not get nearly as much out of the other 10 cycles because they overthink macros and calories. Some people don't want to be huge just jacked. If you want to be Dorian Yates you have to eat beyond what you thought was possible, you have to work out much harder then you are right now. Sure you probably won't get there but that's how you have to do it to have a chance.

You have a good point. I’m just saying that it’s not like Robby or Yates got to where they were by working the same as random Joe the natty and using steroids. Yes, they had to use steroids, but they also worked harder than 99.9% of people, natural or otherwise.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

And they’re also likely elite in the genetics department as well.

 

[Old Witch]

Here’s a fun fact for you. If he never used steroids you wouldn’t even know this guy existed today. That’s how important steroids are in bodybuilding. If a natural trains his ass off he still gets mediocre results compared to guys on gear and they Never ever achieve the level of admiration that juicers get. I’ve seen plenty of naturals who train harder than guys on gear and get less results. He’ll most of the best looking juicers at my gym spend more time talking than lifting

Michael Jackson thinks this is just ignorant.

 

[Chados]

You have a good point. I’m just saying that it’s not like Robby or Yates got to where they were by working the same as random Joe the natty and using steroids. Yes, they had to use steroids, but they also worked harder than 99.9% of people, natural or otherwise.

Yup they do have the genetics no doubt but being such a small sport with so many people taking steroids I'm sure there are people even on this forum that could go much further within 3 years than they will in their whole life. Then again it's not about that for most people. I don't want to be like Dorian Yates and since I'm not trying I'll never know. Take what I say with a grain of salt, I don't believe I would but not trying will obviously give a 100% chance to fail.