Best fix for TBol lethargy?

[SpicedCider]

This Monday will mark week 4 of my 8-week Turinabol cycle (currently dosing at 50 mg/day), and over the last couple of days, some mild-moderate lethargy has been creeping in. I am also taking Toremifene at 60 mg EOD and injecting anywhere from 500 - 750 IU/wk of HCG.

Aside from just pinning test, what would the next-best option be for mitigating on-cycle lethargy? Does Dermacrine really fix the issue for most people, or is there something else I would be better off considering instead?

Thanks

 

[lcking187]

IME adding in test may only slightly help. There's a chance the lethargy you are experiencing is from liver stress, at least that's where mine came from I believe.

Try adding in TUDCA and increasing water intake along with a multi. That's what really helped my lethargy whenever I take tbol/var.

IME the lethargy was worse on var and TUDCA definitely did help. Was it a magic bullet? No it wasn't. But it definitely helped some.
Sorry if this didn't make sense and I hope I at least helped a little lol.

 

[SpicedCider]

IME adding in test may only slightly help. There's a chance the lethargy you are experiencing is from liver stress, at least that's where mine came from I believe.

Try adding in TUDCA and increasing water intake along with a multi. That's what really helped my lethargy whenever I take tbol/var.

IME the lethargy was worse on var and TUDCA definitely did help. Was it a magic bullet? No it wasn't. But it definitely helped some.
Sorry if this didn't make sense and I hope I at least helped a little lol.

Yeah, I wondered if the lethargy could be from liver stress instead of actual low test. When I performed a Google search for information on Tbol-related lethargy, I came across a number of forum posts from guys who posted that they were experiencing lethargy even though they had been pinning test with it since the beginning of their cycle.

 

[BarryScott]

I've got no first hand experience but I've looked into the same thing and the options that keep coming up most are 1) fusion androtest, 2) low dose TD trest, 3) stims and just battling it out if you want to avoid hormones.

Hopefully people with actual experience chime in with better answers.

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

consider lowering the dose, your saturated and you probably wont notice it performance wise. but I bet you perk right up.

 

[lcking187]

consider lowering the dose, your saturated and you probably wont notice it performance wise. but I bet you perk right up.

This is probably your best bet. I never run orals without test and I get lethargy from just about all of them.

 

[Jinsun]

Well 4 weeks in you are most definitely suppressed. Might be almost shuttdown or close to it. And hcg probably isn't doing much as tbol shuts down your nuts and hcg or LH doesn't have an effect.

You should go do bloods and check you liver values and estrogen/test. That should give you a good idea about whats what.

But I definitely agree that hormones are not the only probable cause for feeling bad on cycle. However I doubt that liver can cause lethargy... I think that factors that contribute to feeling lethargy are almost always hormone related. Most specifically DHT related and to an extent estrogen. DHT is the ting that keeps you up and strong. But as you are on androgens youdon't get the loss of strenght but only the mental sides of low DHT. Idk, my theory ...

If pinning test is nkt a problem then definetly get some prop asap then followed with enth or cyp or just pin both from the start. It's what I did on a cycle of andro's when my estrogen crashed and feelt like Pinocchio.

 

[NoAddedHmones]

Well 4 weeks in you are most definitely suppressed. Might be almost shuttdown or close to it. And hcg probably isn't doing much as tbol shuts down your nuts and hcg or LH doesn't have an effect.

You should go do bloods and check you liver values and estrogen/test. That should give you a good idea about whats what.

But I definitely agree that hormones are not the only probable cause for feeling bad on cycle. However I doubt that liver can cause lethargy... I think that factors that contribute to feeling lethargy are almost always hormone related. Most specifically DHT related and to an extent estrogen. DHT is the ting that keeps you up and strong. But as you are on androgens youdon't get the loss of strenght but only the mental sides of low DHT. Idk, my theory ...

If pinning test is nkt a problem then definetly get some prop asap then followed with enth or cyp or just pin both from the start. It's what I did on a cycle of andro's when my estrogen crashed and feelt like Pinocchio.

I don't know much about this compound, how come it directly effects the Testes outside of any other AAS?

 

[Jinsun]

I don't know much about this compound, how come it directly effects the Testes outside of any other AAS?

Don't know, that's beyond my pay grade. But it's not just Tbol, other compounds do it also. I think the testes have androgen receptors or smthn and that triggers it. Ostarine for instance, you can see lots of bloods, mine also, where LH is normal or almost normal but test is zero. It's similar with Tbol when you take a serm with it. LH stays elevated but test is zero or near it. Also superdrol, someone just did a superdrol and torem only cycle. Also shutdown test but LH in range albeit lowered.

 

[NoAddedHmones]

Don't know, that's beyond my pay grade. But it's not just Tbol, other compounds do it also. I think the testes have androgen receptors or smthn and that triggers it. Ostarine for instance, you can see lots of bloods, mine also, where LH is normal or almost normal but test is zero. It's similar with Tbol when you take a serm with it. LH stays elevated but test is zero or near it. Also superdrol, someone just did a superdrol and torem only cycle. Also shutdown test but LH in range albeit lowered.

Yer I agree, Androgen receptors are expressed in the testes and can certainly lead to negative feedback which reduce testosterone output. I think it also comes down to a balancing act between the stimulatory properties of LH versus the inhibitory effect of the androgen which will determine the level of reduced testicular function. Androgens such a VAR or any AAS for that matter that on paper have very little androgenic rating likely becomes irrelevant and acts on the hypothalamus at the dosages BB'ers use.

 

[Old Witch]

Transdermal test (mix your own), Trest, Epiandro, 4 andro, 4AD... All would likely work to add the pep back into your step. Otherwise something like 5mg of mixed amphetamine salts in the morning will almost guarantee productivity and energy.

Heck, even a few mgs of test undecanoate orally three times daily.

 

[Jinsun]

Yer I agree, Androgen receptors are expressed in the testes and can certainly lead to negative feedback which reduce testosterone output. I think it also comes down to a balancing act between the stimulatory properties of LH versus the inhibitory effect of the androgen which will determine the level of reduced testicular function. Androgens such a VAR or any AAS for that matter that on paper have very little androgenic rating likely becomes irrelevant and acts on the hypothalamus at the dosages BB'ers use.

Yes exactly.

This lead me to question the point of hcg on cycle. I know it helps with fertility for guys on trt, but that is not the same, as keeping test production up. Either way, it just might be that on cycles, which contain aas that shutdown testes, that hcg doesn't help in keeping up test production and thus prevent leydig cell apoptosis. The only way to now for sure if hcg is helping with this, is to do bloods for TT before and after the start of hcg - both tests inside the cycle.

 

[50Magnum]

yea im confused hes running hcg and usually most people get decent energy with it running it by itself. ****ing rich piana used to do like 5000 iu eod and basically said he would get stronger after coming off. hows your testes feeling? could be ur liver also running something like torem and tbol together can stress ur liver. supposedly proviron can help with lethargy. Also I seen a post where someone ran winstrol and hcg together and got amazing strength gains and energy from it.

 

[SpicedCider]

I’ve been lucky in not having any lethargy. How bad has it hit you buddy???

Not too badly... mainly just kind of a mildly tired, sluggish feeling, and a slightly dulled appetite. It was way worse during the RAD-140 cycle I ran during the summer.

I've got no first hand experience but I've looked into the same thing and the options that keep coming up most are 1) fusion androtest, 2) low dose TD trest, 3) stims and just battling it out if you want to avoid hormones.

Hopefully people with actual experience chime in with better answers.

Thanks for the tip; I'm considering throwing in some form of testosterone. Kind of scared of trest (mainly in regards to the estrogen-related side effects).

consider lowering the dose, your saturated and you probably wont notice it performance wise. but I bet you perk right up.

Thanks, I'll consider lowering the dose.

Well 4 weeks in you are most definitely suppressed. Might be almost shuttdown or close to it. And hcg probably isn't doing much as tbol shuts down your nuts and hcg or LH doesn't have an effect.

You should go do bloods and check you liver values and estrogen/test. That should give you a good idea about whats what.

But I definitely agree that hormones are not the only probable cause for feeling bad on cycle. However I doubt that liver can cause lethargy... I think that factors that contribute to feeling lethargy are almost always hormone related. Most specifically DHT related and to an extent estrogen. DHT is the ting that keeps you up and strong. But as you are on androgens youdon't get the loss of strenght but only the mental sides of low DHT. Idk, my theory ...

If pinning test is nkt a problem then definetly get some prop asap then followed with enth or cyp or just pin both from the start. It's what I did on a cycle of andro's when my estrogen crashed and feelt like Pinocchio.

The weird thing is, my "down there" seems to be working just fine. In fact, I still get random boners throughout the day, especially during the first couple of days after injecting HCG. Depending on how I feel (or continue to feel) over the next few weeks, I'm strongly considering running my spring 2019 TBol cycle alongside test. I figured I would run into this issue, but in a way, this cycle was basically an experiment in the first place.

Transdermal test (mix your own), Trest, Epiandro, 4 andro, 4AD... All would likely work to add the pep back into your step. Otherwise something like 5mg of mixed amphetamine salts in the morning will almost guarantee productivity and energy.

Heck, even a few mgs of test undecanoate orally three times daily.

Yeah, I wish Andriol wasn't so expensive. I'll probably just inject test during my next cycle.

yea im confused hes running hcg and usually most people get decent energy with it running it by itself. ****ing rich piana used to do like 5000 iu eod and basically said he would get stronger after coming off. hows your testes feeling? could be ur liver also running something like torem and tbol together can stress ur liver. supposedly proviron can help with lethargy. Also I seen a post where someone ran winstrol and hcg together and got amazing strength gains and energy from it.

Testes are feeling fine, as far as I can tell. I definitely seem to have more random boners during the first 1-2 days after injecting my HCG dose. Maybe I should dose it more frequently?

 

[Jinsun]

Again, fertility does not signify test production necessarily. You can have full balls but not produce test. This is what hcg is used for, for fertility.

 

[Alchemist11]

Maybe late, maybe crazy, but I would throw in 10 mg of Dbol per day. As I recal, they used it as test base before, and if it's legit, 10 mg of Dianabol should be an equivavelnt of male daily test production, and at that dose won't cause much of liver stress or bloat, but will improve libido and lethargy.

 

[YoungThor]

Maybe it’s as simple as you needing more rest? I’m sure you know your body well and are getting improved recovery from the tbol but it’s still possible that your killing it a little too hard and too often in the gym. I like the lower the dose idea though. Try 30 or 40 mg for a week and see if it improves.

 

[50Magnum]

Maybe late, maybe crazy, but I would throw in 10 mg of Dbol per day. As I recal, they used it as test base before, and if it's legit, 10 mg of Dianabol should be an equivavelnt of male daily test production, and at that dose won't cause much of liver stress or bloat, but will improve libido and lethargy.

What? Dbol is very very suppressive and will literally bring his test levels much much lower than it is...................

 

[Alchemist11]

What? Dbol is very very suppressive and will literally bring his test levels much much lower than it is...................

It is suppressive, so is Tbol... But it will act like test base and provide benefits of test.

 

[50Magnum]

It is suppressive, so is Tbol... But it will act like test base and provide benefits of test.

uh where the hell did you get that info? Have you seen the post bloodwork of people running DBOL literally horrible basically shutdown. Dbol does not act like a base with test on top it highly aromatises more than test; you need to run test with dbol not dbol as a base. Hence most people say never "ever" run dbol by itself; **** is literally way way stronger than tbol. overall you dont use one oral to run it as a base with other orals unless its like andriol or sometype of oral testosterone drug. OP I suggest you getting proviron if you really want to face the lethargy.

 

[Alchemist11]

I actualy run 2 5-6 week Dbol only cycles, libido, mood, everything was sky high. Thats why I gave this advice in first place.

 

[50Magnum]

Yes exactly.

This lead me to question the point of hcg on cycle. I know it helps with fertility for guys on trt, but that is not the same, as keeping test production up. Either way, it just might be that on cycles, which contain aas that shutdown testes, that hcg doesn't help in keeping up test production and thus prevent leydig cell apoptosis. The only way to now for sure if hcg is helping with this, is to do bloods for TT before and after the start of hcg - both tests inside the cycle.

I mean they prescribe people HCG or clomid for people who want to get on HRT. Since if you have low test to begin with its either TRT or HRT; TRT meaning you would be on it mainly for life; HRT you would go on then come off rinse and repeat. I have seen bloodwork from people taking HCG only and logs(not steroid users or people into bodybuilding) literally their tests levels doubled running like 250-400 IU 2x a week. Hence why people who do those crazy HCG protocls when they are shutdown get advised to check their blood work a week or 2 so they can see where their level are at.

 

[BarryScott]

In Alchemist11's defense I've heard the dbol as a base thing before, although it wasn't phrased that way. But supposedly back in the deca and dbol days it was dbol that offset some of the lethargy from deca, since they cycled without any test at all back then. Not sure how applicable that is in current times though.

 

[RickyBlobby]

uh where the hell did you get that info? Have you seen the post bloodwork of people running DBOL literally horrible basically shutdown. Dbol does not act like a base with test on top it highly aromatises more than test; you need to run test with dbol not dbol as a base. Hence most people say never "ever" run dbol by itself; **** is literally way way stronger than tbol. overall you dont use one oral to run it as a base with other orals unless its like andriol or sometype of oral testosterone drug. OP I suggest you getting proviron if you really want to face the lethargy.

He is just recommending DBOL as a "test base". It performs that function well I can attest to that. It provides estrogen and strong androgen, same as testosterone.

 

[Alchemist11]

In Alchemist11's defense I've heard the dbol as a base thing before, although it wasn't phrased that way. But supposedly back in the deca and dbol days it was dbol that offset some of the lethargy from deca, since they cycled without any test at all back then. Not sure how applicable that is in current times though.

This ^
It is prety applicable

 

[SpicedCider]

I appreciate the additional the additional advice that's been offered in this thread. I don't have any Dbol right now, but I might just order some to have on hand during my next cycle to try taking on an "as-needed" basis.

BTW, this is weird, but I just dosed my HCG (~500 IU) for the first time since Thursday night about an hour ago, and the lethargy is gone... ?! I literally feel normal and "woken up" now. Maybe I should be injecting 250 - 500 IU at least EOD, instead of every 3-4 days? (The only reason I haven't been injecting more frequently is because I read somewhere that doses higher than 1000 IU/wk can lead to suppression of natural LH production more quickly)

 

[Sheriff Morri]

Glad you’re feeling better buddy. Having a low dose of Dbol for next cycle is interesting. I may try that next cycle in January.

 

[50Magnum]

He is just recommending DBOL as a "test base". It performs that function well I can attest to that. It provides estrogen and strong androgen, same as testosterone.

then why do people who run "dbol only cycle" get super lethargic after 3 weeks in? All its going to do is make him feel more like **** since he already has serious suppression on top of adding dbol. You ever seen the bloodwork of people running dbol for a week? Literally their test goes down more than 60-70% after running dbol and thats only 7 days.

 

[50Magnum]

I appreciate the additional the additional advice that's been offered in this thread. I don't have any Dbol right now, but I might just order some to have on hand during my next cycle to try taking on an "as-needed" basis.

BTW, this is weird, but I just dosed my HCG (~500 IU) for the first time since Thursday night about an hour ago, and the lethargy is gone... ?! I literally feel normal and "woken up" now. Maybe I should be injecting 250 - 500 IU at least EOD, instead of every 3-4 days? (The only reason I haven't been injecting more frequently is because I read somewhere that doses higher than 1000 IU/wk can lead to suppression of natural LH production more quickly)

they say desensitization; but people who are on HRT take 500-800 IU of HCG every week for months at a time. Op I suggest you stay at 400-500 IU of HCG/ week or if that doesnt work just take proviron it does wonders for sex drive and energy. If you don't to take proviron just shoot test from now on.

 

[Alchemist11]

then why do people who run "dbol only cycle" get super lethargic after 3 weeks in? All its going to do is make him feel more like **** since he already has serious suppression on top of adding dbol. You ever seen the bloodwork of people running dbol for a week? Literally their test goes down more than 60-70% after running dbol and thats only 7 days.

As I said man, I did 2 Dbol solo cycles, all 6 weeks, everything was fine, and even better. Guess some of us respond better to certan compounds than others.

 

[Jinsun]

then why do people who run "dbol only cycle" get super lethargic after 3 weeks in? All its going to do is make him feel more like **** since he already has serious suppression on top of adding dbol. You ever seen the bloodwork of people running dbol for a week? Literally their test goes down more than 60-70% after running dbol and thats only 7 days.

Dbol converts both to estrogen and dht. That's why. But if he is feeling bad bc of digestion, liver stress, etc. adding another oral would only worsen the situation.

I would however much rather see him just get some freaking test and be done with this stupid debate XD

 

[50Magnum]

As I said man, I did 2 Dbol solo cycles, all 6 weeks, everything was fine, and even better. Guess some of us respond better to certan compounds than others.

yeah it was by itself you did; but have you run dbol for 6 weeks with var or tbol without any test? Pretty sure you would of felt like **** cause I haven't heard of one person feeling great running two orals unless it was maybe var and tbol; because var helps with energy(not everyone) and it offsets the tbol hunger and lethargy. But besides the strength gains on two orals; pretty sure fatigue will kick in the 4th-th week. But overall I think OP is fine if hes feeling great now with the increased dose of HCG. But if hes feeling worse after the hcg shot; he needs to just add test or proviron nothing else; dbol will only put him in complete shutdown like test; but at least with test he will be feeling great.