Whisky’s test e, tbol, liquidien and winny cycle log

[MrKleen73]

Well, to be frank, pinning peptides multiple times a day for how little effect they yield makes no sense to me. Guys sticking themselves 4x a day and you can’t even tell they lift sometimes - for what, really?

There has to be bang for buck. Mk677 is a once-daily pill, and CJC w DAC can be pinned once every 5-6 days and keep serum IGF-1 elevated.

Only way I would be doing daily peptide shots would be for TB500 and such if I needed to heal something - that’s worth the effort.

Ah, I see the convenience factor, however I wouldn't really say that Mod GRF and a GHRP together don't yield good results. Have you ever used them together? You get a MASSIVE and LONG GH spike from that, well long meaning 30 minutes which is a lot longer than your normal spike lasts. I had really good results with them together twice a day. Some mod grf and 300mg GHRP twice a day once before my lift, and once before bed got me the same results as running 2mg of DAC a week, but for a good bit less money. However 3mgs a week of DAC, 1 Mon, 1 Wed, 1 Friday was hands down the best peptide cycle I have run.

Now I am realizing that your statement may not have been limited to peptides that need to be injected daily... Are you also saying that what you get out of MK, and or DAC would also not be worth it if everyday pinning was required?

 

[MrKleen73]

Second comment on the thread bro - added mid cycle pics a week or so back. Looked similar (in terms of definition) from week 2 and still do.......

From the looks of it you are probably about half and half. You have definitely gained a noticeable amount of fat. Not saying a lot of it, but I don't thin it is not mostly water either. I would not be pushing the number on the scale so much as trying to push the numbers on your lifts. Although you might want to decrease intensity and increase volume if you want to try to squeeze a little more growth out of the cycle. Just depends on the focus. Also now would be a good time to add in an Epicatechin supplement to help lower myostatin as your levels are no doubt higher at this point in the cycle limiting further growth.

 

[Hyde]

MrKleen73 correct - even the boon to recovery those yield is, in my opinion, small potatoes in the big picture. For their convenience they are worth it, but if it took 2 lil shots per day that would be too much time and effort to me for results that can be made up next cycle by adding an extra 10-20mg of Anavar for 4 weeks lol

 

[MrKleen73]

Oh, if you want to really get a much better idea of how much of that is water then do the water cutting hot bath method and then take a pic.

Basically eat your last meal, preferably have some carbs in it... don't drin any water after the meal. Wait about an hour, and put a bunch of epsom salt into the tub and turn on the hot water. Get into it while it is filling and get it as hot as you can stand it. Submers as much of your body under the water as possible and sit there for 10 minutes. Run more hot water during this time to keep it as hot as possible. When you get out IMMEDIATELY pat all water off of your body, put some pj's on or maybe lay a towel under you in bed and go to sleep. You will wake up 3-10lbs lighter and much tighter. Most of the subcutaneous water will have been pulled out in the bath since the bath water is salt loaded it pulls the water out of the skin. You pat down quickly because your body will start trying to reabsorb any water that touches your skin.Then the process of the body trying to cool itself after while covered sweats out most of what is left.

If you do this you will have a MUCH better idea of what you will look like when any excess cycle related water comes off.

 

[MrKleen73]

MrKleen73 correct - even the boon to recovery those yield is, in my opinion, small potatoes in the big picture. For their convenience they are worth it, but if it took 2 lil shots per day that would be too much time and effort to me for results that can be made up next cycle by adding an extra 10-20mg of Anavar for 4 weeks lol

Okay, I can get with that for sure... so Var it is... wait... what? It would probably help with my joints though...

 

[Whisky]

Oh, if you want to really get a much better idea of how much of that is water then do the water cutting hot bath method and then take a pic.

Basically eat your last meal, preferably have some carbs in it... don't drin any water after the meal. Wait about an hour, and put a bunch of epsom salt into the tub and turn on the hot water. Get into it while it is filling and get it as hot as you can stand it. Submers as much of your body under the water as possible and sit there for 10 minutes. Run more hot water during this time to keep it as hot as possible. When you get out IMMEDIATELY pat all water off of your body, put some pj's on or maybe lay a towel under you in bed and go to sleep. You will wake up 3-10lbs lighter and much tighter. Most of the subcutaneous water will have been pulled out in the bath since the bath water is salt loaded it pulls the water out of the skin. You pat down quickly because your body will start trying to reabsorb any water that touches your skin.Then the process of the body trying to cool itself after while covered sweats out most of what is left.

If you do this you will have a MUCH better idea of what you will look like when any excess cycle related water comes off.

That’s a really smart plan....

 

[Hyde]

That’s a really smart plan....

It is also completely miserable, as a heads up. But welcome to cutting weight.

 

[Whisky]

Ok so will update re training in a bit first up I got my mid cycle bloods back today.....few things jump out at me, namely test is lower than I might have expected by estrogen is way higher....I’m doing some reading up on this but would love the views of you guys on these results (at the moment I’m thinking as an ex fatty I’m prone to amortisation which is why I’ve higher e and lower test than might be expected on cycle)

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[MrKleen73]

Ok so will update re training in a bit first up I got my mid cycle bloods back today.....few things jump out at me, namely test is lower than I might have expected by estrogen is way higher....I’m doing some reading up on this but would love the views of you guys on these results (at the moment I’m thinking as an ex fatty I’m prone to amortisation which is why I’ve higher e and lower test than might be expected on cycle)

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I know I am being lazy, but what are your current doses again.

 

[Whisky]

I know I am being lazy, but what are your current doses again.

Test e 600 pw
Winny 50 ed
Hcg 250 2xweek
Adex 0.5 eod

 

[hairygrandpa]

Interesting!
IMHO, everything looks good. I would go with adex 0.75mg eod from now on.

 

[MrKleen73]

I always forget how to translate the blood work in that format to what I am used to looking at so I am pretty much useless here other than looking at the ranges and seeing how far out of them you are.

 

[Whisky]

Day 81 - busy work day. Did an hour of light chest and arms stuff in a really limited hotel gym

Day 82

Decent training day - felt like the winny may be starting to do something

Back squat 3x368.5 (pr)
Bench 3x253 (equal pr but moved it better)

Day 83

Weight up at 233 - going to try MrKleen73 hot Epsom salt bath plan tonight to see where bf is at (mainly because I want to see whether to throw in a couple of deciding weeks before the end of the cycle or not).

Training was solid again

Push press single at 209 - equal pr but moved it way better than I ever have before. Really want that 220 overhead - it was close so think I’ll have it next week.

Still running 5k plus 4-5 times a week. Cardio performance is still improved. Not at the level it has been but I’m 30lbs heavier than then so no surprise really.

Joints are ok ish. Nothing unbearable but not as good as they were pre winny for sure.

Anyway, that’s all from me - have a great weekend

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

i agree with HGP.. up your adex brother, and possibly add low dose clomid daily.. like 12 mgs. unless your feeling good and liking your results which is perfectly fine also.
estrogen helps you grow~

 

[Whisky]

i agree with HGP.. up your adex brother, and possibly add low dose clomid daily.. like 12 mgs. unless your feeling good and liking your results which is perfectly fine also.
estrogen helps you grow~

I’ve definitely no issue looking bloated whilst on cycle as long as it’s mostly water, exactly the same happened using trest (15lbs gained in first two weeks), the weight gain was way lower on my 1/4/epiandro cycle but I looked leaner and leaner as it went on.

As long as when the water clears it’s not fat gain I’m good, just harder to judge whilst looking like this so guessing a lot. I know it’s a learning curve but would like to specifically end this year looking good.

Results wise I can’t argue. Strength up way past anything I’ve achieved before

 

[Hyde]

When you take your hot bath, you want the water as hot as you can tolerate, because the goal is to use it to make you sweat. You won’t be able to tell with your body submerged and the steam in the room, but that’s how the process works. Make sure you stay conscious and consider having your wife check on you every 5 min til you get out. It is draining and you don’t need to drown.

 

[Whisky]

When you take your hot bath, you want the water as hot as you can tolerate, because the goal is to use it to make you sweat. You won’t be able to tell with your body submerged and the steam in the room, but that’s how the process works. Make sure you stay conscious and consider having your wife check on you every 5 min til you get out. It is draining and you don’t need to drown.

Try not to die....sage advice brother hehe.

No in seriousness thanks, I’ll be trying to do it properly so that’s worth factoring in.

 

[Hyde]

Try not to die....sage advice brother hehe.

No in seriousness thanks, I’ll be trying to do it properly so that’s worth factoring in.

Lol yeah don’t die - great advice I know. It can actually kinda therapeutic with the epsom salt and just doing one bath, but I just wanted to remind you to be mindful - people do die getting too extreme.

 

[Whisky]

Lol yeah don’t die - great advice I know. It can actually kinda therapeutic with the epsom salt and just doing one bath, but I just wanted to remind you to be mindful - people do die getting too extreme.

Ok I didn’t die but that was not therapeutic lol

I buy Epsom salts in 50lb bags as both me and the missus use it but normally no where near that hot. Stayed in till I felt dizzy and nauseous......it was the constant stream of hot water being added that made it so intense.

Currently lying here, Stark bollock naked and sweating like a fat guy boning a hooker.....

See what the morning brings

 

[BennyMagoo79]

Ok I didn’t die but that was not therapeutic lol

I buy Epsom salts in 50lb bags as both me and the missus use it but normally no where near that hot. Stayed in till I felt dizzy and nauseous......it was the constant stream of hot water being added that made it so intense.

Currently lying here, Stark bollock naked and sweating like a fat guy boning a hooker.....

See what the morning brings

Lol @ fat guy boning a hooker

 

[DemntedCowboy]

Lol @ fat guy boning a hooker

At least he said that instead of a fat guy boning the queen.

 

[Hyde]

At least he said that instead of a fat guy boning the queen.

Whiskey’s a classy guy

 

[SkRaw85]

“I woke up like this” pic please. Thanks.

 

[Whisky]

Sooooo did I gain a shed load of fat or was it all water retention.....the pictures are in and the judges have poured over them in great detail......I can now confirm it looks like whisky got fat lol

First two are last night just before bath time

Second two are this morning first thing (edited out the lob on I woke up with, no one needs to suffer by seeing that). Weight was down 6lbs....

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On the basis I gained the weight early on, plus when I ran 1/4/epiandro with a very similar calorie and activity level I didn’t have this issue I’m sure it has to be the high estrogen that’s caused it (fat gain). My best guess is that even though I was pretty lean coming into cycle, I still have the fat calls from my fat days and they must increase my capacity for aromatisation.

Must admit that I’m seeing so much conflicting stuff on estrogen and various metabolites, some being good some being bad, seen studies showing low estro can cause fat gain as well ffs. Anyone who can offer any views on this it would be much wecomed

 

[Hyde]

The whole “bro you need estrogen to grow” thing is, IMO, overhyped bs by already lean guys - guys who have always been leaner. It’s my anecdotal experience that those guys do better with wetter bulky cycles, deca and such, often with little to no AI even, while guys who gain easily are better off keeping things drier by comparison.

Supporting evidence: guys taking Superdrol solo on a deficit and still acquiring lean mass, with no aromatization happening and despite rapidly declining natural production causing an extremely low estrogen environment.

Estrogen does help you grow, it has massive impact on GH pathways, it activates receptors that normal androgens can’t - BUT, some guys, thicker ones, just don’t respond as well to it as others. I certainly don’t.

 

[Whisky]

The whole “bro you need estrogen to grow” thing is, IMO, overhyped bs by already lean guys - guys who have always been leaner. It’s my anecdotal experience that those guys do better with wetter bulky cycles, deca and such, often with little to no AI even, while guys who gain easily are better off keeping things drier by comparison.

Supporting evidence: guys taking Superdrol solo on a deficit and still acquiring lean mass, with no aromatization happening and despite rapidly declining natural production causing an extremely low estrogen environment.

Estrogen does help you grow, it has massive impact on GH pathways, it activates receptors that normal androgens can’t - BUT, some guys, thicker ones, just don’t respond as well to it as others. I certainly don’t.

Interesting, thanks bro.

The strength gains this far have been good but ultimately my goal is aesthetic and, as much as possible, I’d rather retain a leaner physique year round and take slower gains.

Thinking next time out something like eq with 250-300 test (or even mast with low test if I need to cut rather than recomp) will be a good route to try. Probably start with just those to see the effect and then throw in some orals like 1-t, msten or superdrol to get things moving along.

I’ve got time to plan it anyway.

 

[Whisky]

Day 84

Obviously updated from the salt bath water cutting and looks like i e gained more fat than I wanted on this cycle. Good learning curve though.

Thinking I’ll pull back on the calories slightly (like 3,850-4,000) and look to recomp for the last 4 weeks. I’m definitely going to eat at 4K + through pct to keep the lean mass as much as poss so would like to take a little of the fat off before then.

Training was decent today. Hit 5 solid reps at 368.5 on back squat. That’s a pr and for context at the start of this cycle I was struggling to make 5 at 286. My best 5 rep at the end of my last cycle was 330 so we are way past anything I’ve achieve before.

Benched a set of 4 at 253. It’s a or but was supposed to be 5. God damn bench

All in all happy though. Strength is coming on, sides are non existent and I’m building a decent base to cut from I guess.

Right - let’s go and kill this week brothers

 

[MrKleen73]

When you take your hot bath, you want the water as hot as you can tolerate, because the goal is to use it to make you sweat. You won’t be able to tell with your body submerged and the steam in the room, but that’s how the process works. Make sure you stay conscious and consider having your wife check on you every 5 min til you get out. It is draining and you don’t need to drown.

Yeah, that is why I mentioned only doing 1 10 minute session, should get almost all of the sub-Q out but avoid danger, or pulling water out of organs or muscles just to drop weight which wasn't the goal.

Lol yeah don’t die - great advice I know. It can actually kinda therapeutic with the epsom salt and just doing one bath, but I just wanted to remind you to be mindful - people do die getting too extreme.

LOL However it is so true!!!

The whole “bro you need estrogen to grow” thing is, IMO, overhyped bs by already lean guys - guys who have always been leaner. It’s my anecdotal experience that those guys do better with wetter bulky cycles, deca and such, often with little to no AI even, while guys who gain easily are better off keeping things drier by comparison.

Supporting evidence: guys taking Superdrol solo on a deficit and still acquiring lean mass, with no aromatization happening and despite rapidly declining natural production causing an extremely low estrogen environment.

Estrogen does help you grow, it has massive impact on GH pathways, it activates receptors that normal androgens can’t - BUT, some guys, thicker ones, just don’t respond as well to it as others. I certainly don’t.

People definitely do need it but not as high as people say. Kind of like Whisky eluded too, there is a range and below optimal slows fat loss just as much as above optimal does. I am sure it is the same way with growth, it is similar with sexual attributes too.

Day 84

Obviously updated from the salt bath water cutting and looks like i e gained more fat than I wanted on this cycle. Good learning curve though.

Thinking I’ll pull back on the calories slightly (like 3,850-4,000) and look to recomp for the last 4 weeks. I’m definitely going to eat at 4K + through pct to keep the lean mass as much as poss so would like to take a little of the fat off before then.

Training was decent today. Hit 5 solid reps at 368.5 on back squat. That’s a pr and for context at the start of this cycle I was struggling to make 5 at 286. My best 5 rep at the end of my last cycle was 330 so we are way past anything I’ve achieve before.

Benched a set of 4 at 253. It’s a or but was supposed to be 5. God damn bench

All in all happy though. Strength is coming on, sides are non existent and I’m building a decent base to cut from I guess.

Right - let’s go and kill this week brothers

I think similarly to Hyde's thought processes on bigger guys probably need lower estrogen. Their are also some massive considerations regarding limiting the surplus for anyone who has been obese before.

Once your body is good at storing fat, and your fat cells have been stretched out from being obese they are far more efficient at storing fat, and the fat cell actually wants to refill the cell to it's former glory... So as soon as you start putting in a surplus, they want to start storing. If you spike insulin while you have a high level of saturated fats they will want to use the insulin to try to store some of that. For someone in that situation you really should by trying to gain on a 200-300 calories surplus rather than 500-1000 above trying to make faster gains. You are most efficient at gaining fat, so you are going to gain fat faster from a 500 calorie surplus than someone whose fat cells have never been stretched out or made hyper efficient at storage.

With your history I would recommend a 200-300 calories over maintenance as a starting place for bulking and increase slowly with gains. I have a feeling you will be much happier if you stay closer to in shape. The size is coming, and will continue to come but if aesthetics is your goal I would not do another bulk until you are as lean as you want to be then just start a gradual reverse diet that simply never stops the small adjustments up until you notice that you are starting to gain a bit of fat. Drop calories for a week or two to clean things up, then start slowly working back up. Over time not only should you be able to gain size while remaining lean enough to be pretty happy with aesthetics, while also increasing your metabolism so you can eat more without getting fat.

I understand the idea of big jumps, and they are very satisfying when we see the scale bump up when we start gaining quickly but natty fatty's like us simply need to avoid that if we don't want to end up fat. Some guys can rock the 1000 cal bumps without getting soft. Me I can not, but I can gain as much muscle as them with a good bit lower caloric increase while coming out leaner on the other side so I can deal with that!!!! I am definitely wired well for recomp, but bulking I tend to get soft.

 

[Chados]

Yeah, that is why I mentioned only doing 1 10 minute session, should get almost all of the sub-Q out but avoid danger, or pulling water out of organs or muscles just to drop weight which wasn't the goal.

LOL However it is so true!!!


People definitely do need it but not as high as people say. Kind of like Whisky eluded too, there is a range and below optimal slows fat loss just as much as above optimal does. I am sure it is the same way with growth, it is similar with sexual attributes too.



I think similarly to Hyde's thought processes on bigger guys probably need lower estrogen. Their are also some massive considerations regarding limiting the surplus for anyone who has been obese before.

Once your body is good at storing fat, and your fat cells have been stretched out from being obese they are far more efficient at storing fat, and the fat cell actually wants to refill the cell to it's former glory... So as soon as you start putting in a surplus, they want to start storing. If you spike insulin while you have a high level of saturated fats they will want to use the insulin to try to store some of that. For someone in that situation you really should by trying to gain on a 200-300 calories surplus rather than 500-1000 above trying to make faster gains. You are most efficient at gaining fat, so you are going to gain fat faster from a 500 calorie surplus than someone whose fat cells have never been stretched out or made hyper efficient at storage.

With your history I would recommend a 200-300 calories over maintenance as a starting place for bulking and increase slowly with gains. I have a feeling you will be much happier if you stay closer to in shape. The size is coming, and will continue to come but if aesthetics is your goal I would not do another bulk until you are as lean as you want to be then just start a gradual reverse diet that simply never stops the small adjustments up until you notice that you are starting to gain a bit of fat. Drop calories for a week or two to clean things up, then start slowly working back up. Over time not only should you be able to gain size while remaining lean enough to be pretty happy with aesthetics, while also increasing your metabolism so you can eat more without getting fat.

I understand the idea of big jumps, and they are very satisfying when we see the scale bump up when we start gaining quickly but natty fatty's like us simply need to avoid that if we don't want to end up fat. Some guys can rock the 1000 cal bumps without getting soft. Me I can not, but I can gain as much muscle as them with a good bit lower caloric increase while coming out leaner on the other side so I can deal with that!!!! I am definitely wired well for recomp, but bulking I tend to get soft.

This fat storage thing you're talking about is spot on. I think thats a big reason people put on more weight at older age because metabolism really doesn't change significantly. When you're 13 you run all the time and you grow so it's just harder to add fat but as soon as you lose a little testosteron and you start chilling to simply put it after a hard working week and you decide to throw in some beers and pizza the roller coaster starts. I have never stored that much fat but once living in the US (not stereotyping) maybe a little, I decided to bulk on Louisiana food and let's put it this way. I gained two sizes around my waste and I stayed at almost the same weight.


This is also why it's so important not only limit either fat or carbs but also to know where you get the fat and carbs from and the timing of the meals.

 

[Whisky]

Day 85

Just picking up on the points Hyde and MrKleen73 raise. I definitely can see I’m prone to fat regain, I had it when trying to lean bulk natty, gaining 2lbs a month and some would be fat. I know this is the internet and anyone can claim anything but I like to consider myself someone who is pretty legit then it comes to what I do diet wise, i do eat very clean, minimal processed foods, everything tracked (and has been virtually every day for the past 3 years) etc. Main flaws in my diet are that around 100g protein (of the 350g on average I eat per day) comes from shakes/bars. I also tend to eat more calories later in the day (mainly as that’s the easiest time to fit them in). However, the science suggests neither of those should make a significant difference.

If I look at the difference between this cycle and my first, I got leaner on the first (during and after) running 1/4/epiandro, ended up gaining around 7lbs. Both last cycle and this one I gained way more weight quickly but lost all definition, trest last time and test this time would seem to be the cause of that with high estrogen.....my best guess is that it’s that, combined with a surplus that makes the old fat cells very receptive to fat storage, despite all the gear.

On the plus side I’m getting strong and I feel great. The cardio (still run 5-8km 4-5 times a week) and diet is probably limiting the impact.

Next cycle I like the idea of something like 300mg test, 600mg eq and maybe 300mg mast (I definitely want a dht derivative in there). That should control the estro way better.

Anyway, onto the fun stuff. Training.....

Had to bring forward my normal Tuesday session to Monday (I’m late updating this) so after my pr squat on Sunday I attempted my heavy dead’s on Monday,

473 x 5 - smashed it, pr and made the 5th rep easier than then 4th last week at that weight (I didn’t attempted the 5th rep last week as the 4th was such a grind).

For context by pre cycle 1 rep max was 440 and my best ever 1 rep 495

No question the winny is kicking in and I’m back on an upward trend.....

Time to see where we can take it in the last 4 weeks or so

 

[Chados]

Day 85

Just picking up on the points Hyde and MrKleen73 raise. I definitely can see I’m prone to fat regain, I had it when trying to lean bulk natty, gaining 2lbs a month and some would be fat. I know this is the internet and anyone can claim anything but I like to consider myself someone who is pretty legit then it comes to what I do diet wise, i do eat very clean, minimal processed foods, everything tracked (and has been virtually every day for the past 3 years) etc. Main flaws in my diet are that around 100g protein (of the 350g on average I eat per day) comes from shakes/bars. I also tend to eat more calories later in the day (mainly as that’s the easiest time to fit them in). However, the science suggests neither of those should make a significant difference.

If I look at the difference between this cycle and my first, I got leaner on the first (during and after) running 1/4/epiandro, ended up gaining around 7lbs. Both last cycle and this one I gained way more weight quickly but lost all definition, trest last time and test this time would seem to be the cause of that with high estrogen.....my best guess is that it’s that, combined with a surplus that makes the old fat cells very receptive to fat storage, despite all the gear.

On the plus side I’m getting strong and I feel great. The cardio (still run 5-8km 4-5 times a week) and diet is probably limiting the impact.

Next cycle I like the idea of something like 300mg test, 600mg eq and maybe 300mg mast (I definitely want a dht derivative in there). That should control the estro way better.

Anyway, onto the fun stuff. Training.....

Had to bring forward my normal Tuesday session to Monday (I’m late updating this) so after my pr squat on Sunday I attempted my heavy dead’s on Monday,

473 x 5 - smashed it, pr and made the 5th rep easier than then 4th last week at that weight (I didn’t attempted the 5th rep last week as the 4th was such a grind).

For context by pre cycle 1 rep max was 440 and my best ever 1 rep 495

No question the winny is kicking in and I’m back on an upward trend.....

Time to see where we can take it in the last 4 weeks or so

Excited to see where it takes you. I'd definitely think about how to reduce bloat and fat gain if you notice this because I don't see you adding any crazy amount of size or muscle with 4 more weeks but I also don't see it being possible to lose muscle, just fat and water when you're on aas and high protein.


Also regarding dhts. Masteron is not close to winstrol so I wouldn't spend money on it if my goal was to burn fat or add muscle. I can't even begin to understand where this came from because having run both its literally night and day and for the people saying you have to be lean on masteron (which is true) it's not like it's gonna be more effective than winstrol. I mean why would a steroid thats weaker in every area be more effective than the stronger because you're at lower bodyfat? Nah if you want a little safer approach I'd say add var or even proviron really works like mast at higher dosage.

 

[SkRaw85]

Nice PRs bro!

 

[MrKleen73]

Excited to see where it takes you. I'd definitely think about how to reduce bloat and fat gain if you notice this because I don't see you adding any crazy amount of size or muscle with 4 more weeks but I also don't see it being possible to lose muscle, just fat and water when you're on aas and high protein.


Also regarding dhts. Masteron is not close to winstrol so I wouldn't spend money on it if my goal was to burn fat or add muscle. I can't even begin to understand where this came from because having run both its literally night and day and for the people saying you have to be lean on masteron (which is true) it's not like it's gonna be more effective than winstrol. I mean why would a steroid thats weaker in every area be more effective than the stronger because you're at lower bodyfat? Nah if you want a little safer approach I'd say add var or even proviron really works like mast at higher dosage.

When it comes to masteron, or any other steroid for that matter the assertion you need to be at any level of leanness for it to work is fallacy. All that simply means is that it is not a strong enough compound for the changes to be obvious on someone with a higher body fat level. They still work via the same mode of action and everything regardless of fat level. Certainly there can be difference due to having a bit higher estrogen, but a DHT should actually shine a bit when E levels have been higher as they also lower the expression of estrogen due to competitive binding.

I think about it this way, if people can gain an average of about 4lb lbm while losing 8lbs of fat on Winny. Then who is going to have more noticeable results, A 200lb guy starting @ 12% and ending up 8% @ 196, or the 200lb guy who started @ 20%, and went down to 16% @ 196?

Same gains and losses, just one is far more noticeable so people say it works "better" that way...

Sure those numbers are not perfect, but they play more to the fatter person's favor if anything. Because in reality the person @ 20% to start would be losing fat at a faster rate than someone who is lean just due to negative feedback loops involved in metabolism regulation.

I always kind of laugh when people say you should be at a certain body fat % before ever considering running gear. Well if the goal is to get the results as fast as possible, like say everyone who works out wants.... Then gear is going to get you there faster... That is it, end of story!!!

You WILL burn fat faster, you WILL build muscle faster regardless of where you are in the body composition spectrum. If you are willing to run gear at any point, and your health does not put you at a high risk from running gear then you will accelerate your progress.

In my opinion any other suggestion is simply out of peoples regurgitation of things heard from others, or people trying to push some moralistic value that someone has tried to apply to something that is 100% illegal which makes no sense. If you are willing to break the law for it then that is the end of the morals debate of should or shouldn't run gear at ANY point. Short of are you healthy enough, there really is no moral question that needs answered by anyone but oneself. Bottom line is if you are healthy enough and run gear from any level of composition it will accelerate your progress.

Just discussing, not correcting, I have just always found it very interesting how people apply stuff that doesn't really matter to the use of PED's.

PED Use Checklist
Have you done your research? Check!
Are you healthy enough? Check!
Are you willing to break the law? Check!
Do you want accelerated progress toward your physique goals? Check!

That's it, it is that simple, everything else is just noise and personal opinions based on the persons comfort level with risk in my opinion.

 

[Whisky]

Excited to see where it takes you. I'd definitely think about how to reduce bloat and fat gain if you notice this because I don't see you adding any crazy amount of size or muscle with 4 more weeks but I also don't see it being possible to lose muscle, just fat and water when you're on aas and high protein.


Also regarding dhts. Masteron is not close to winstrol so I wouldn't spend money on it if my goal was to burn fat or add muscle. I can't even begin to understand where this came from because having run both its literally night and day and for the people saying you have to be lean on masteron (which is true) it's not like it's gonna be more effective than winstrol. I mean why would a steroid thats weaker in every area be more effective than the stronger because you're at lower bodyfat? Nah if you want a little safer approach I'd say add var or even proviron really works like mast at higher dosage.

That’s a good point. I’m sticking with the slight reduction in calories to recomp the last 4 weeks as I feel like I can still gain some strength but start to drop some fat. Even if I don’t finish as lean as I originally wanted I’m going to keep calories up in pct so I’m accepting I’ll finish that with some bf added.

I’ll probably run a peptide/clen based cut before my next cycle so depending on where i start will possibly dictate the compounds but given I have no sides of any note of winstrol then that’s one I’d run again quite happily for sure.

Is there much difference between Im and oral (aside from a reduction in liver impact)?

 

[MrKleen73]

That’s a good point. I’m sticking with the slight reduction in calories to recomp the last 4 weeks as I feel like I can still gain some strength but start to drop some fat. Even if I don’t finish as lean as I originally wanted I’m going to keep calories up in pct so I’m accepting I’ll finish that with some bf added.

I’ll probably run a peptide/clen based cut before my next cycle so depending on where i start will possibly dictate the compounds but given I have no sides of any note of winstrol then that’s one I’d run again quite happily for sure.

Is there much difference between Im and oral (aside from a reduction in liver impact)?

I have never run it that way so I can not compare but would assume that IM is going to supply more kick per mg because you are not losing any during the digestion and filtration process in the liver. Curious to hear from those who have done both.

 

[Hyde]

You could probably get similar results with 200mg each test and masteron under the 600mg of Eq, save a few quid and keep the oils to 1g/week. Eq is going to be the anabolic workhorse in that cycle regardless.

Dosages are personal but it was just a thought! People generally talk about Masteron & Test like anything under 400mg of either is more for feels than significant body changes.

 

[Chados]

When it comes to masteron, or any other steroid for that matter the assertion you need to be at any level of leanness for it to work is fallacy. All that simply means is that it is not a strong enough compound for the changes to be obvious on someone with a higher body fat level. They still work via the same mode of action and everything regardless of fat level. Certainly there can be difference due to having a bit higher estrogen, but a DHT should actually shine a bit when E levels have been higher as they also lower the expression of estrogen due to competitive binding.

I think about it this way, if people can gain an average of about 4lb lbm while losing 8lbs of fat on Winny. Then who is going to have more noticeable results, A 200lb guy starting @ 12% and ending up 8% @ 196, or the 200lb guy who started @ 20%, and went down to 16% @ 196?

Same gains and losses, just one is far more noticeable so people say it works "better" that way...

Sure those numbers are not perfect, but they play more to the fatter person's favor if anything. Because in reality the person @ 20% to start would be losing fat at a faster rate than someone who is lean just due to negative feedback loops involved in metabolism regulation.

I always kind of laugh when people say you should be at a certain body fat % before ever considering running gear. Well if the goal is to get the results as fast as possible, like say everyone who works out wants.... Then gear is going to get you there faster... That is it, end of story!!!

You WILL burn fat faster, you WILL build muscle faster regardless of where you are in the body composition spectrum. If you are willing to run gear at any point, and your health does not put you at a high risk from running gear then you will accelerate your progress.

In my opinion any other suggestion is simply out of peoples regurgitation of things heard from others, or people trying to push some moralistic value that someone has tried to apply to something that is 100% illegal which makes no sense. If you are willing to break the law for it then that is the end of the morals debate of should or shouldn't run gear at ANY point. Short of are you healthy enough, there really is no moral question that needs answered by anyone but oneself. Bottom line is if you are healthy enough and run gear from any level of composition it will accelerate your progress.

Just discussing, not correcting, I have just always found it very interesting how people apply stuff that doesn't really matter to the use of PED's.

PED Use Checklist
Have you done your research? Check!
Are you healthy enough? Check!
Are you willing to break the law? Check!
Do you want accelerated progress toward your physique goals? Check!

That's it, it is that simple, everything else is just noise and personal opinions based on the persons comfort level with risk in my opinion.

I 100% agree with you and I should have made it more clear. Yes you most certainly will notice more with gear regardless of fat% than you would naturally but i think there's a limit to when someone should run gear because you're at a higher risk of sides and if you have to cut an enormous amount you might wanna diet that down first. Masteron is just too weak if a steroid to give any noticible effect at high bodyfat. It adds no size almost no strength and it doesn't dry you out or promotes fatloss due to musclemass like winstrol, anavar and I'd argue proviron works just as good, problem is that people run proviron at 25mg not 150. As far as dht lowering estrogen it's still not as strong as winstrol. I by no means suggest that one should overlook the health benefits running mast instead of winstrol just that masteron is very often not worth the money which doesn't mean go for winstrol but why not anavar then?.

And no it's just good that you add to what I'm saying since I tend to rush my explanation when I'm not over explaining instead Haha.

 

[Chados]

That’s a good point. I’m sticking with the slight reduction in calories to recomp the last 4 weeks as I feel like I can still gain some strength but start to drop some fat. Even if I don’t finish as lean as I originally wanted I’m going to keep calories up in pct so I’m accepting I’ll finish that with some bf added.

I’ll probably run a peptide/clen based cut before my next cycle so depending on where i start will possibly dictate the compounds but given I have no sides of any note of winstrol then that’s one I’d run again quite happily for sure.

Is there much difference between Im and oral (aside from a reduction in liver impact)?

From what ive heard and seen not really and you can actually drink winstrol I believe. Its also supposedly painful. Arguably safer though since it's not passing through the liver

 

[Hyde]

From what ive heard and seen not really and you can actually drink winstrol I believe. Its also supposedly painful. Arguably safer though since it's not passing through the liver

It is going to pass through the liver. The drugs still have to get processed. IM compounds just skip the first pass.

 

[Chados]

It is going to pass through the liver. The drugs still have to get processed. IM compounds just skip the first pass.

True but the toxicity is very low because of this. There are injectibles that doesn't really posses hepatotoxicity that's injectible and non injectiblem. Does a methylated steroids that's injectible become more toxic because its methylated? I never thought about this.

You reminded me of a thing though.
Whisky since it winstrol depot won't pass through the liver it means you can run longer but it also suggests it might be stronger per mg.. Very little though.

 

[MrKleen73]

It is going to pass through the liver. The drugs still have to get processed. IM compounds just skip the first pass.

Yeah, once in the system it is in there until it runs its course.

True but the toxicity is very low because of this. There are injectibles that doesn't really posses hepatotoxicity that's injectible and non injectiblem. Does a methylated steroids that's injectible become more toxic because its methylated? I never thought about this.

The egg... no definitely the chicken... eh maybe the egg?

Loosely translated to - "Beats the hell out of me, but a good question. "

 

[Hyde]

True but the toxicity is very low because of this. There are injectibles that doesn't really posses hepatotoxicity that's injectible and non injectiblem. Does a methylated steroids that's injectible become more toxic because its methylated? I never thought about this.

You reminded me of a thing though.
Whisky since it winstrol depot won't pass through the liver it means you can run longer but it also suggests it might be stronger per mg.. Very little though.

Anecdotally guys seem to feel better pinning orals vs consuming them orally, but the body still has to metabolize them. Treat IM toxic compounds similar to how you would in their oral delivery form.

 

[Chados]

Yeah, once in the system it is in there until it runs its course.


The egg... no definitely the chicken... eh maybe the egg?

Loosely translated to - "Beats the hell out of me, but a good question. "

Haha yeah it kinda doesn't make sense but can't see anything else being the answer

 

[Whisky]

Day 85 and 86 - fcuking picked up a cold which combined with a crazy busy (and stressful) work week put me on my ass a bit. No training, tried to just sleep a lot and recover.

Day 87 - still suffering with this cold but made it to the gym. Actually nailed a set of 3 back squat at 380. Moved the weight really well and that’s a massive pr for me (that’s a set of 3 at my previous one rep max which I hit at the peak of my last cycle).

Did bench and bent over rows after that, felt strong again, just run down but I’m impressed with winny for sure.

Day 88 - slept really badly last night, got a lot in my head, some investments I’ve made are a bit ropey etc so literally couldn’t get to sleep. Felt terrible all day, didn’t train.

I’ve been struggling to hit calories with this cold (although trained and ran a lot less too). Do look leaner though.

Hoping to get a good nights sleep tonight so I can hit the last 3 weeks as hard as possible.

Hope you all had a great thanksgiving

 

[mixedup]

Interesting, thanks bro.

The strength gains this far have been good but ultimately my goal is aesthetic and, as much as possible, I’d rather retain a leaner physique year round and take slower gains.

Thinking next time out something like eq with 250-300 test (or even mast with low test if I need to cut rather than recomp) will be a good route to try. Probably start with just those to see the effect and then throw in some orals like 1-t, msten or superdrol to get things moving along.

I’ve got time to plan it anyway.

Eq and winny is a classic cutter we used to use all the time

 

[Whisky]

Eq and winny is a classic cutter we used to use all the time

Thanks for the input bro, The more I read about eq the more I want to run it.

Dienolone is another that I’m keen to try soon as well. I’m hoping to be in a position where recomp is the ideal cycle as opposed to straight cut but that’s probably depending on where this one finishes......

 

[Hyde]

You could cut on dienelone based on what I’ve read. You can cut on anything I suppose though so take that for whatever it’s worth.

Nice squatting! Nothing like a big PR squat, truly. When you stand up with a big weight, and know that you put your fears aside to do so, it’s so satisfying.

 

[Whisky]

You could cut on dienelone based on what I’ve read. You can cut on anything I suppose though so take that for whatever it’s worth.

Nice squatting! Nothing like a big PR squat, truly. When you stand up with a big weight, and know that you put your fears aside to do so, it’s so satisfying.

Thanks bro. I must admit the feeling of a big squat is probably the best of all the lifts. Mainly because even when I unrack 220 I think it feels heavy and with the higher numbers there’s that moment where it just scares the sh1t outta me. I’ve got much better at being aggressive in my squat though, I used to be tentative on the descent and lose tightness at the bottom. Now I descend with controlled aggression and try to really drive out of the hole.

 

[BennyMagoo79]

Thanks bro. I must admit the feeling of a big squat is probably the best of all the lifts. Mainly because even when I unrack 220 I think it feels heavy and with the higher numbers there’s that moment where it just scares the sh1t outta me. I’ve got much better at being aggressive in my squat though, I used to be tentative on the descent and lose tightness at the bottom. Now I descend with controlled aggression and try to really drive out of the hole.

It doesnt get lighter, you get stronger!!!

 

[SkRaw85]

Nice skwaats Whisky