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opinions on cardarine (gw 5015156) during pct

Mitch_310

Mitch_310

Member
Currently in PCT from a sarms cycle I ran. Everything is going good so far. No gains lost, weight is the same (did a cutting/ recomp cycle). But I have noticed I cannot do as much volume as i used to do when I was on cycle. (compensated by switching to a lower volume high intensity split to retain/make strength and retain size, haven't felt sore in ages, but finally back to natural training lol). currently eating 300 calories above my TDEE. pct right now is nolva 10mg ed, gonna keep this up for a few more weeks along with sup3r pct. libido seems be going up, consistent morning wood now. Not gonna get blood work anytime soon though since there isnt any point right now. But overall feeling of well being is better as well.

I've been looking around the forums about using GW in pct since it can aid in fat loss, prevent catabolism, as well as boost overall work capacity and performance. I was wondering if any anyone has ran this in PCT, if so is it worth it and did it help? currently have some laying around but wondering if I should just save it or use it now. thanks
 
I’ve used it twice and really like it bro. Personally I felt like it gave just that little bit extra to push on and make my body hold the gains. I’ve never really seen fat loss from it but endurance benefits for sure
 
Whisky said:
I’ve used it twice and really like it bro. Personally I felt like it gave just that little bit extra to push on and make my body hold the gains. I’ve never really seen fat loss from it but endurance benefits for sure
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Agree completely. To be honest the best things I've tried as far as fatburner have been nore normal things like lean extreme for cortisol. Gw on the other hand is great for cholesterol which can take a hit during cycle. But yeah before I ramble too much gw will help a ton with energy, cholesterol and arguably a little with fatloss (especially if you benefit from the energy you get and can push harder).
 
Chados said:
Agree completely. To be honest the best things I've tried as far as fatburner have been nore normal things like lean extreme for cortisol. Gw on the other hand is great for cholesterol which can take a hit during cycle. But yeah before I ramble too much gw will help a ton with energy, cholesterol and arguably a little with fatloss (especially if you benefit from the energy you get and can push harder).
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I know it showed lipid improvements in mice, but has anyone actually logged GW with pre and post bloods? To actually show how much it improves cholesterol? I know people get scared of high mgs bc of the potential cancer association, but I wonder if it needs to be dosed that high (20mg+) to actually find any statistically significant lipid changes.
 
Bagofturdwind said:
I know it showed lipid improvements in mice, but has anyone actually logged GW with pre and post bloods? To actually show how much it improves cholesterol? I know people get scared of high mgs bc of the potential cancer association, but I wonder if it needs to be dosed that high (20mg+) to actually find any statistically significant lipid changes.
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It has never shown to cause cancer.. There was something about mice perhaps could make a tumour grow faster but most of the studies tells otherwise.

Tons of studies showing improved cholesterol.. Listen you don't need est and if you feel like you're worried don't do it. It's not that important
 
Chados said:
It has never shown to cause cancer.. There was something about mice perhaps could make a tumour grow faster but most of the studies tells otherwise.

Tons of studies showing improved cholesterol.. Listen you don't need est and if you feel like you're worried don't do it. It's not that important
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It’s something I’ve always thought could be theoretically very practical for oral cycles considering the hit your lipids take on them. I’ve just always wondered why it was never common practice if GW is all that it’s cracked up to be. I think there’s still plenty of reason to be concerned with it.. just wondering if anyone had bloods pre & post oral cycles to show GW’s impact. It would go a long way in proving GW’s worth in regards to risk/reward.
 
Bagofturdwind said:
It’s something I’ve always thought could be theoretically very practical for oral cycles considering the hit your lipids take on them. I’ve just always wondered why it was never common practice if GW is all that it’s cracked up to be. I think there’s still plenty of reason to be concerned with it.. just wondering if anyone had bloods pre & post oral cycles to show GW’s impact. It would go a long way in proving GW’s worth in regards to risk/reward.
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I'm sure there are specifically for that. Ive noticed improved levels myself and it shouldn't really be possible with steroids right? I mean could I have eaten so healthy that it countered the damage from steroids?
 
Chados said:
I'm sure there are specifically for that. Ive noticed improved levels myself and it shouldn't really be possible with steroids right? I mean could I have eaten so healthy that it countered the damage from steroids?
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I’m talking about some type of definitive evidence from one cycle to the next. Maybe you noticed HDL and LDL numbers were horrific on an oral cycle. Next cycle you supplement GW with the same oral (at the very least in PCT). You should theoretically have a higher HDL and lower LDL number than your original oral cycle, correct? Would it be close to your non-cycle numbers or a mere 2 point difference? I’d love to see people present real bloods that show its impact. I’m not completely crapping on GW either. I would just like to see what it’s capable of in regards to improving a lipid profile when lipids are taking a hit.
 
I tried 3 different sources and for whatever all 3 treated me the same. After about 30 min of taking it I would get extremely hypo and eat everything in sight but TD SR9009 did not do that to me and I got better fat loss results.
 
Chados said:
It has never shown to cause cancer.. There was something about mice perhaps could make a tumour grow faster but most of the studies tells otherwise.

Tons of studies showing improved cholesterol.. Listen you don't need est and if you feel like you're worried don't do it. It's not that important
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What studies show otherwise? In vitro studies? The only human studies used very low doses for very short durations; for it to cause cancer in 4-12 weeks in humans would make it an insanely potent carcinogen lol. Furthermore, even if it “only” exacerbates/potentiates other carcinogens, is it really the best idea to run it with/after other drugs/steroids that may themselves be carcinogenic?
 
muscleupcrohn said:
What studies show otherwise? In vitro studies? The only human studies used very low doses for very short durations; for it to cause cancer in 4-12 weeks in humans would make it an insanely potent carcinogen lol. Furthermore, even if it “only” exacerbates/potentiates other carcinogens, is it really the best idea to run it with/after other drugs/steroids that may themselves be carcinogenic?
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Well actually, according to the study I read the last time I got into this topic, it made existing cancer grow faster. It was not said to have caused new cancerous growth, meaning actually having caused it initially.

I think if you don't have cancer, then there's a good chance you won't get it from cardarine.

Now enough fear mongering.
 
Old Witch said:
Well actually, according to the study I read the last time I got into this topic, it made existing cancer grow faster. It was not said to have caused new cancerous growth, meaning actually having caused it initially.

I think if you don't have cancer, then there's a good chance you won't get it from cardarine.

Now enough fear mongering.
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"The" study? Do you truly believe there is only one study showing (increased) cancer growth with GW, or are you being intentionally disingenuous? As I said before, even if it's not "causing" cancer itself, surely you can concede that taking it with other drugs/steroids/etc. that may themselves be carcinogenic is perhaps not the wisest decision, or at least not without some risk. It was found to increase cancer growth in mice that were predisposed to various forms of cancer/growth. Perhaps not "causing" it in subjects that are not predisposed to it or not doing anything to increase the odds of developing it, but I'd then say that since the topic of discussion here is running it with various drugs/steroids, that you're running a risk, period.

You tell me "enough fear mongering." I tell you enough leaving out information...
 
Actually I just intended it to mean the study I read most recently. I do check back from time to time, but, not for those reasons. I have read every English language study available to me, there is no information being left out here, one is nearly as good as the next at this point.

I think you acting like the steroids and GW501516 are the only potential carcinogens we might consume on a daily basis is a bit disingenuous in and of itself especially considering the company you rep has ingredients known to cause some harm themselves.

Now get off this and let us take our cardarine without the same lecture over and over.
 
Old Witch said:
Actually I just intended it to mean the study I read most recently. I do check back from time to time, but, not for those reasons. I have read every English language study available to me, there is no information being left out here, one is nearly as good as the next at this point.

I think you acting like the steroids and GW501516 are the only potential carcinogens we might consume on a daily basis is a bit disingenuous in and of itself especially considering the company you rep has ingredients known to cause some harm themselves.

Now get off this and let us take our cardarine without the same lecture over and over.
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If we're consuming/ingesting MORE carcinogens than just AAS/GW, then that only further reinforces my point, that it would be risky to introduce/add a substance that may exacerbate other carcinogens. Also, if I'm being honest, I'd rather use testosterone long-term than GW; at least we have some basic idea of what it does to the human body for any meaningful length of time. Using cardarine at more than 10mg/day for a few/several weeks, for a single "cycle" is ENTIRELY uncharted territory with not even a single study, using a drug that was abandoned by the developers.

Honestly, my main reason for commenting here was because you said "most of the studies showed otherwise" regarding increased cancer growth/incidence. But this isn't true. Are you really telling me that the majority of the studies found that it did not increase the rate/incidence of cancer growth? You'd have to exclude any very-short-term studies from this evaluation, as of course it's not going to cause cancer when a person uses it for 6 weeks. But using it regularly/daily, or for several cycles a year at double the maximum studied dose? And with other potential carcinogens? It's a risk. You take that risk if you want, but don't pretend there's no risk at all.
 
Where did I say that in this thread exactly? I have said no such thing. The studies are pretty clear: above a certain dosage, if you're a mouse or rat with cancer, cardarine will make it worse if taken for an extended length of time.
 
Old Witch said:
Where did I say that in this thread exactly? I have said no such thing. The studies are pretty clear: above a certain dosage, if you're a mouse or rat with cancer, cardarine will make it worse if taken for an extended length of time.
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You said, and I quote, "...there was something about mice perhaps could make a tumour grow faster but most of the studies tells otherwise." Sorry I said you said "the majority" when you really said "most."

My point is that the majority of long-term studies on GW did not find that it didn't increase the rate of cancer growth/incidence. Also, you misread at least one study, as the mice did not have cancer to begin with, but were PREDISPOSED to cancer, and noted increased growth/incidence, which means that it may be risky for "subjects" that are predisposed to cancer, or perhaps are exposing themselves to other carcinogens; it's hardly a leap man.

But I'm beating a dead horse at this point, so I suppose we're done here? Enjoy the rest of your day/night.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Also, you misread at least one study, as the mice did not have cancer to begin with, but were PREDISPOSED to cancer .
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I believe it is you who have misread at least one study, as at least one and definitely the most valid one (in my opinion) actually induced cancer in the mice and rats before treatment with cardarine.
 
Old Witch said:
That was Chados not me.
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My bad. Then his post was why I commented here, not yours.
Old Witch said:
I believe it is you who have misread at least one study, as at least one and definitely the most valid one (in my opinion) actually induced cancer in the mice and rats before treatment with cardarine.
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I didn't misread anything my friend. I said that there was at least one study that found it increased cancer growth/incidence in rodents who weren't given cancer pre-treatment, but were only predisposed to it. You seemed to be the one claiming that GW was ONLY shown to increase cancer growth in rodents given cancer pre-treatment, which is not the case, as some studies noted increased growth/incidence in rodents who were predisposed to, but not experimentally given, cancer. You can't say that because one study gave the rodents cancer first that this is the only time that it would increase the risk/growth, as other studies noted increased growth/incidence in rodents who weren't given cancer first.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
My bad. Then his post was why I commented here, not yours.

I didn't misread anything my friend. I said that there was at least one study that found it increased cancer growth/incidence in rodents who weren't given cancer pre-treatment, but were only predisposed to it. You seemed to be the one claiming that GW was ONLY shown to increase cancer growth in rodents given cancer pre-treatment, which is not the case, as some studies noted increased growth/incidence in rodents who were predisposed to, but not experimentally given, cancer. You can't say that because one study gave the rodents cancer first that this is the only time that it would increase the risk/growth, as other studies noted increased growth/incidence in rodents who weren't given cancer first.
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From memory (I’ll try to find source later when I get time) I thought I read that in vitro human studies more recently showed anti cancer effects??

My personal view is that ultimately no one can 100% but that the risk of cancer is way overblown and running 20mg a day for a few months through a cycle/pct is extremely unlikely to cause an issue.....just my view but I guess in the end we all pay our money and take our chances with this stuff
 
muscleupcrohn said:
What studies show otherwise? In vitro studies? The only human studies used very low doses for very short durations; for it to cause cancer in 4-12 weeks in humans would make it an insanely potent carcinogen lol. Furthermore, even if it “only” exacerbates/potentiates other carcinogens, is it really the best idea to run it with/after other drugs/steroids that may themselves be carcinogenic?
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Rats are much more likely to get cancer and they have. A lifespan of 3 years while running cardarine pretty much their full life, the other thing is that its never been shown to cause cancer, it was a possibility it could enhance growth in tumours but even that was never established. Cardarine has been used since the 90s by humans and it didn't just show no effect in Vito it showed a decrease in growth rate and a reversed effect.
 
Chados said:
Rats are much more likely to get cancer and they have. A lifespan of 3 years while running cardarine pretty much their full life, the other thing is that its never been shown to cause cancer, it was a possibility it could enhance growth in tumours but even that was never established. Cardarine has been used since the 90s by humans and it didn't just show no effect in Vito it showed a decrease in growth rate and a reversed effect.
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Dude, there was more than just the three year study in rodents; one was only 6 weeks, which, while equivalent to more than the same 6 weeks for humans, is not exactly “life long” like the other study people seem to think is the only study on the topic. Also, I don’t think in vitro research is enough to entirely dispel all concerns, and apparently neither do GSK and Ligand, otherwise they would have resumed/continued development if they were certain it wouldn’t/didn’t/couldn’t cause/increase cancer in humans. It’s all risk/reward, and you determine that for your personal use, but don’t pretend that there’s some consensus in the research that it’s entirely without risk, or that the only rodent studies were all very long term and/or gave the rodents cancer before treatment, because that’s not true. I’m beyond beating a dead horse at this point, so I think we’re done here.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Dude, there was more than just the three year study in rodents; one was only 6 weeks, which, while equivalent to more than the same 6 weeks for humans, is not exactly “life long” like the other study people seem to think is the only study on the topic. Also, I don’t think in vitro research is enough to entirely dispel all concerns, and apparently neither do GSK and Ligand, otherwise they would have resumed/continued development if they were certain it wouldn’t/didn’t/couldn’t cause/increase cancer in humans. It’s all risk/reward, and you determine that for your personal use, but don’t pretend that there’s some consensus in the research that it’s entirely without risk, or that the only rodent studies were all very long term and/or gave the rodents cancer before treatment, because that’s not true. I’m beyond beating a dead horse at this point, so I think we’re done here.
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I never said that. I said the rats have a lifespan of 2 to 3 years and have a much higher risk of gettin cancer than humans. For them to take cardarine 6 weeks is like you taking it for 4% of your lifetime during one run and what is that.. 80 years old give or take.. That's like 3 years straight.. This is what you don't get. So taking it 3 whole years would be like you taking it from age of 1 to 80.

Any dosage they've given to rats does not work as a measurement in humans and they most likely shut it down due to cost.

It's not out of the world crazy to be worried I agree but even if you take the shorter cycles with rats you can't compare it to humans.
 
hahahahah, for real I just wanted to know if this stuff could boost my performance and give me some anti catabolic and fat burning effects with good nutrition and training during pct. I don't care about some rat studies, from what I've read most of the studies are inconclusive. We have no idea what these do to our bodies in the long term since they haven't been around long enough. But I'm willing to risk it though. Jeez, where I live all people my age are getting trashed 3-4 times a week, eating like crap, and smoking weed everyday. You really think I'm worried about a little bit of cardarine for 4 weeks??? lol
 
Bagofturdwind said:
I know it showed lipid improvements in mice, but has anyone actually logged GW with pre and post bloods? To actually show how much it improves cholesterol? I know people get scared of high mgs bc of the potential cancer association, but I wonder if it needs to be dosed that high (20mg+) to actually find any statistically significant lipid changes.
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10mg has been shown to improve cholesterol:
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HDL: Up by up to 16.9%
LDL: Down by up to 7.3%
The exploratory study showed significant reductions in the concentration of very LDL (-19%), intermediate-density lipoprotein (-52%), and LDL (-14%, predominantly a reduction in small particles), whereas the number of HDL particles increased (+10%; predominantly medium and large HDL).
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That said, ashwagandha has been shown to improve cholesterol (increasing HDL and decreasing LDL):
HDL: +17.3%
LDL: -17.4%
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Garlic can also improve cholesterol:
HDL: + 15.7%
LDL: -17.3%
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So, my question is, why not try adding ashwagandha and garlic to manage cholesterol before trying GW? If these two can bring it to more normal levels, and both have an unquestionably more favorable safety profile, why even bother with GW? I'd say try these first.
 
Ashwagandha contains highly toxic withanolides in addition to the beneficial ones. Much like other herbal supplements such as green tea extract, can cause severe problems up to and including liver failure.

I do not recommend. Secondly, garlic is a potent blood thinner, easily able to perform the blood thinning effect of aspirin. I don't recommend taking more garlic than a normal Italian dinner. Especially if you take aspirin or other blood thinners as many of us do.
 
Old Witch said:
Ashwagandha contains highly toxic withanolides in addition to the beneficial ones. Much like other herbal supplements such as green tea extract, can cause severe problems up to and including liver failure.

I do not recommend. Secondly, garlic is a potent blood thinner, easily able to perform the blood thinning effect of aspirin. I don't recommend taking more garlic than a normal Italian dinner. Especially if you take aspirin or other blood thinners as many of us do.
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Nice try about the ashwagandha, but if you have a quality extract like KSM-66, it doesn't have the "highly toxic" withanolides. KSM-66 has an insanely favorable and well demonstrated safety profile, with mountains of human studies, often 3-6 months in duration. If you're telling me that 600mg/day KSM-66 can cause liver failure, I'll tell you your out of your damn mind, and need to do some research. If you think that GW has a more favorable safety profile than ashwagandha, I'm done even "debating" with you, as you're clearly insane.
 
Mitch_310 said:
hahahahah, for real I just wanted to know if this stuff could boost my performance and give me some anti catabolic and fat burning effects with good nutrition and training during pct. I don't care about some rat studies, from what I've read most of the studies are inconclusive. We have no idea what these do to our bodies in the long term since they haven't been around long enough. But I'm willing to risk it though. Jeez, where I live all people my age are getting trashed 3-4 times a week, eating like crap, and smoking weed everyday. You really think I'm worried about a little bit of cardarine for 4 weeks??? lol
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Well, the answer to that is a resounding yes. Cardarine is a definite human performance enhancer. There really isn't any question about that, however it's effect on body composition is far less than its general effect on endurance. I'm not sure my taking it ever lost me fat, but I could run all day because of taking it, which will lose me fat.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Nice try about the ashwagandha, but if you have a quality extract like KSM-66, it doesn't have the "highly toxic" withanolides. KSM-66 has an insanely favorable and well demonstrated safety profile, with mountains of human studies, often 3-6 months in duration. If you're telling me that 600mg/day KSM-66 can cause liver failure, I'll tell you your out of your damn mind, and need to do some research. If you think that GW has a more favorable safety profile than ashwagandha, I'm done even "debating" with you, as you're clearly insane.
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When I think of ashwagandha, the words "bunk" and "poison" come to mind. Secondly ksm66 does not have toxic withaferin removed, but only reduced to a standard low. This is still poison, no matter how you cut it.
 
You're referring to Withaferin A, the cytotoxic withanolide, but, if you did even cursory research, you'd know that quality extracts like KSM-66 have negligible levels of Withaferin A (<0.1%).
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Furthermore, this study found that the NOAEL for Withaferin A was greater than the human equivalent of 600+ mg Withaferin A (the highest dose tested). Given the 600mg/day dose of KSM-66 and the <0.1%, you're only taking 0.6mg/day Withaferin A, or less than 0.1% (or 1/1000) of that dose.
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Old Witch said:
Well, the answer to that is a resounding yes. Cardarine is a definite human performance enhancer. There really isn't any question about that, however it's effect on body composition is far less than its general effect on endurance. I'm not sure my taking it ever lost me fat, but I could run all day because of taking it, which will lose me fat.
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If you want to be technical and go on actual data/science, there is MUCH more research showing ashwagandha is an ergogen than there is research showing that GW is. The same can be said for body composition, as we have studies on ashwagandha noting improved body composition.
Old Witch said:
When I think of ashwagandha, the words "bunk" and "poison" come to mind.
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Wrong again my friend.

Here's some research for you to read:

This study reports that ashwagandha supplementation is associated with significant increases in muscle mass and strength and suggests that ashwagandha supplementation may be useful in conjunction with a resistance training program.
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Our study showed that Withania somnifera increased velocity, power and VO2 max
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Organ function tests were in normal range before and after the intervention. Reduction in total- and LDL- cholesterol and increase of strength in muscle activity was significant. Total body fat percentage showed a reduction trend. WS, in escalated dose, was tolerated well. The formulation appeared safe and strengthened muscle activity.
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shwagandha improved the cardiorespiratory endurance of the elite athletes.
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Old Witch said:
So, now you're defending a known toxin. Who's insane?
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What are you on about man? I just explained that with KSM-66 you're getting 1/1000 of a dose that's lower than the NOAEL, if you even know what that means. This is akin to me saying that it's ok to eat an apple (which it obviously is), even though it contains arsenic, because the dose/amount you're getting is so minuscule that it's not relevant. Unless you're telling me that I should never eat an apple because arsenic is a "known toxin" and it's in apples. Go home man, you're just digging yourself deeper...
 
And in studies on 1-DHEA they were able to grow several lbs lbm in a month. Nobody who bought a 1-dhea product ever gained that in practicality. I've taken KSM and sensoril numerous times, to absolutely zero avail. If they really worked, they would be banned.
 
Old Witch said:
And in studies on 1-DHEA they were able to grow several lbs lbm in a month. Nobody who bought a 1-dhea product ever gained that in practicality. I've taken KSM and sensoril numerous times, to absolutely zero avail.
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Wait, you just explicitly said that when you hear ashwagandha you think poison, but you then said you used it multiple times? How much are you smoking man? You're making no sense.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Wait, you just explicitly said that when you hear ashwagandha you think poison, but you then said you used it multiple times? How much are you smoking man? You're making no sense.
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You don't always know you're taking poison until after you take it.
 
Old Witch said:
You don't always know you're taking poison until after you take it.
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So you disagree with the fact that 600mg/day KSM-66 has 0.6mg Withaferin A, which is 1/1000 of the NOAEL? What is your refutation to this? Or to the plethora of studies showing that ashwagandha is safe, even taken multiple times a day for 3-6+ months? You're wrong...
 
Old Witch said:
You don't always know you're taking poison until after you take it.
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So you disagree with the fact that 600mg/day KSM-66 has 0.6mg Withaferin A, which is 1/1000 of the NOAEL? What is your refutation to this? Or to the plethora of studies showing that ashwagandha is safe, even taken multiple times a day for 3-6+ months? You're wrong...
 
I had to ignore that guy. Thanks for technology.

Anyway fellas, anyone reading, Cardarine is not any less safe than simply taking one of the other drugs we might take, steroids, DNP, Clen, GH, insulin... GH and steroids are largely going to increase cancer risk and growth as well if not even moreso. It's not any different than anything else you might choose.
 
Old Witch said:
When I think of ashwagandha, the words "bunk" and "poison" come to mind. Secondly ksm66 does not have toxic withaferin removed, but only reduced to a standard low. This is still poison, no matter how you cut it.
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It has 0.1%, which is 0.6mg per 600mg/day dose of KSM-66. This is 1/1000 of a dose that was still found to be lower than the NOAEL. Should we never eat apples because they still have the "poison" arsenic in them, "no matter how you cut it?" Or should we stop drinking our water, since it contains chlorine? The dose makes the poison man...
 
Old Witch said:
I had to ignore that guy. Thanks for technology.

Anyway fellas, anyone reading, Cardarine is not any less safe than simply taking one of the other drugs we might take, steroids, DNP, Clen, GH, insulin... GH and steroids are largely going to increase cancer risk and growth as well if not even moreso. It's not any different than anything else you might choose.
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Hold up there rockstar, whilst the debate up to now has been well above my level of scientific knowledge even I am confident in saying that you can’t simply group GW in with insulin (or DNP).......it’s a fact that slin can fcuking kill you straight away you if you get it wrong. I’m 100% nobody (not even a rat) died off a dose of GW.......

Dangerous throwaway statement to make Imo
 
Thank you Whisky. That's actually why I threw them in. There seems to be a crazed obsession with this idea that cardarine is maniacally unsafe. DNP and insulin are mentioned to put that back into perspective.

Cardarine is not even close to the top of any of our worries.
 
Old Witch said:
Thank you Whisky. That's actually why I threw them in. There seems to be a crazed obsession with this idea that cardarine is maniacally unsafe. DNP and insulin are mentioned to put that back into perspective.

Cardarine is not even close to the top of any of our worries.
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Who in their right mind is recommending running DNP? I also don't think anyone who isn't a competitive bodybuilder should use insulin for muscle building purposes, but that's just me. People seem to forget that you can get pretty damn big and lean without insulin and DNP; in fact, bodybuilders from the 60s-70s were probably bigger/leaner than most random gym-bros and amateurs that use DNP, insulin, etc. today. Everyone just wants every possible shortcut.
 
To change the topic. Just hit some legs and took cardarine for the first time about 30 min before my workout. This stuff is gas. Glad I added it to my pct
 
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