Transhuman
Member
Agreed, especially with the lipids and gyno part. Anything that can give my PCT a boost will always be a welcome addition. I'll be trying Torem for my next cycle and will have clomid on hand in case I prefer one over the other.
Clomid during cycle
- Thread starter RickyBlobby
- Start date
Agreed, especially with the lipids and gyno part. Anything that can give my PCT a boost will always be a welcome addition. I'll be trying Torem for my next cycle and will have clomid on hand in case I prefer one over the other.
Hyde
Legend
Thank you, captain obvious, for the fundamental principles of steroid usage
I’m not remotely concerned how my balls look; they always shrink on cycle and always return fine when I come off - I made the comment to suggest that the Toremifene likely will not be able to keep up with this cycle. But if you would calm down and actually read all of my posts, you’d understand there are multiple reasons I am experimenting with it this cycle.
Prostate health, improved lipid profile, gyno-protection are all documented benefits of Torem. What remains to be seen is if it has a measurable negative impact anywhere in my bloods or if it speeds recovery any post cycle.
heckler7
Active member
wow a lot of sandy vaginas here, I have used torem, but I guess I would have been better to just say looks like you are on the right track keep up the good workThank you, captain obvious, for the fundamental principles of steroid usage
I’m not remotely concerned how my balls look; they always shrink on cycle and always return fine when I come off - I made the comment to suggest that the Toremifene likely will not be able to keep up with this cycle. But if you would calm down and actually read all of my posts, you’d understand there are multiple reasons I am experimenting with it this cycle.
Prostate health, improved lipid profile, gyno-protection are all documented benefits of Torem. What remains to be seen is if it has a measurable negative impact anywhere in my bloods or if it speeds recovery any post cycle.
Hyde
Legend
You quote me so you can hate on a post you didn’t even read fully because someone else in the thread was busting your nuts, and I have a sandy vagina?
Maybe stop ****ting on the carpet in here and actually bring something useful to the discussion, how about that? Not everyone is here to argue on the internet.
rtmilburn
Well-known member
Hahahahahha. Bring something to the table thats actually contributes to the knowledge of this forum please
rtmilburn
Well-known member
Oyt of date science actually read this thread. Also hcg sux!
rtmilburn
Well-known member
What he said.
rtmilburn
Well-known member
No need for an ai for increased Estrogen if it has no were to bind, due the serm blocking the receptors.
heckler7
Active member
to each their own, HCG gives me headaches, but daily injects brought my t level up 100 on labs so it depends on how you use it
heckler7
Active member
not sure where you are going with this but thats exactly why you use an AI
heckler7
Active member
like this post did, nice work troll
heckler7
Active member
actually taking a serm with no AI while estrogen is high is why people end up with issues, you not gonna stop all receptors and other sides.
rtmilburn
Well-known member
Ugh. Wrong. Read this thread. Im gonna repeat things ive said over seven times in here yet again.
heckler7
Active member
you need an AI on cycle, that is a basic, you can go search it anywhere you want, if you want to believe anything else than have a great day
rtmilburn
Well-known member
I have. You do realize the estrogen half life is UP TO 35 hours. And only serm that upregulates estrogen production is clomid. So as long as you have given proper time for estrogen to clear the your system while we on a serm, that's not clomid, there is ZERO CHANCE OF ANY ESTROGEN SIDE EFDECTS! As the serm block estrogen from binding to the receptor. So if there is no were for it to bind to how is it going to cause a negative effect Mr. Know it all?
rtmilburn
Well-known member
Also serm have a saturation point which is pretty low. Typical dosing is usually saturating the receptors.
heckler7
Active member
so your cool with having skyhigh estrogen and having complete loss of your dick, and mad acne and bloating and cramping but the serm will protect you from gyno, OR, you could use an AI keep your estrogen low in normal levels not get acne bloating and cramping and keep getting boners, unless you are in gender transition then its understandable why you wanna agrue abut **** that you clearly dont know **** about. keep burping up that baseless bro knowledge
Jinsun
Well-known member
Now that I stopped tamox my balls are starting to hurt more. Probably they are starting to atrophy more. Curious that this is happening just as I stopped tamox. I know we have mentioned something on this regard before in this thread; that serms also might act directly on the gonads. If this is true somehow, then regardles of LH and FSH results, serms might help with atrophy. But how to prove this??
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
Still haven't checked FSH Jinsun?
Hyde
Legend
I run an AI on any wet cycle definitely (I have high bf & aromatize heavily). However, my mild cutting cycle is very dry - 11kt/var/ostarine/androsterone+Epiandrosterone. I have actually had to take a wet oral preWO once a week just to keep my joints from cracking. So an AI is NOT what I need.
You are advising under the premise that all cycles are test-based, or that all guys need an AI. That isn’t always the case though.
heckler7
Active member
your right, I was adding my .02 about clomid use, I think there are better options, and I was trying to reply to you repsectfully somehow **** got twisted with others input. I still think using clomid for an extend period is a bad idea, just the mood swings alone is not worth it
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
Fukkin Heckle and Hyde
Jinsun
Well-known member
Ahahahahaahahhaahaha
rtmilburn
Well-known member
What are you not getting with no receptor for it to bind to it can't do anything!
rtmilburn
Well-known member
It wont just protect you from gyno. serms work on all estrogen receptors. So take a serm there will be no receptors available for estrogen to have a negative side effect. Get out off here and actually read this fuking thread before you post again.
heckler7
Active member
godamn bro you love to argue, when your dick stops working and your body is covered in acne, and you start crying at the end of the little mermaid research controlling your estrogen, till then have a snickers I'm done
rtmilburn
Well-known member
Ive done it, many have done it. Thats not how it works. Have a understanding of basic science before you spout sh!t out you azz
rtmilburn
Well-known member
Matter of fact serm on cycle was the standard until late 80s early 90s
rtmilburn
Well-known member
Before we continue this. Tell me, how is estrogen going to cause those side effects if it has no receptor to bind? If you can answer this ill redact my statement and apologize.
heckler7
Active member
maybe if you did some research you would learn something, dont be a salmon, dont regurgitate the same bull**** you heard from others without researching it. ITS COMMON KNOWLEDGE EVERYWHERE.too low E2 joint pain low E2 great boners, high E2 limp dick, ance mood swings, bloating dificulty gaining muscle.
rtmiburn if you dont wanna listen and just argue than I cant help you, believe whatever you want
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Jinsun
Well-known member
Guys, can you please stop responding to heckler. Only way he is going away. There is no point in arguing with him as half the time he doesn't even understand what we are talking about and then has this bipolar answers... Just stop it!
On a nother note, I don't believe serms bind to absolutely all receptors alpha or beta. They have an affinity towards one moe than the other sure and it's also tissue specific, but still even the one receptors they do bind preferentially I doubt that ALL receptors are saturated. In any case I would controll my e2 with an Ai regardles of having a serm on board. It's really not a big deal to pop aromasin 2 or 3 times a week and be done with it...
On a nother note, I don't believe serms bind to absolutely all receptors alpha or beta. They have an affinity towards one moe than the other sure and it's also tissue specific, but still even the one receptors they do bind preferentially I doubt that ALL receptors are saturated. In any case I would controll my e2 with an Ai regardles of having a serm on board. It's really not a big deal to pop aromasin 2 or 3 times a week and be done with it...
rtmilburn
Well-known member
I understand fully the negative ramifications of high estrogen. I just don't think you understand how serms work. Or how estrogen in enacts it's negative effects, or anything thing, in the human body.
For something to cause an effect it has to attach to a receptor. Once attached it "encodes" a the receptor with it's "information", which in return causes the the effects of the something to happen.
The way serms work is they attach to the estrogen receptor. This prevents estrogen from attaching and encoding it's "information" in the to receptor. Thus preventing estrogen from doing anything. But it's more complicated than that as not only does serms block the recepor, it also is an agonist at ER-b(the good estrogen receptor) while being a reverse agonist at ER-a(the bad estrogen receptor, literally every bad thing estrogen does is from ER-a). What being a reverse agonist means is the it translates the exact opposite information the estrogen does. It does all of this with higher affinity to the receptor than estrogen in almost every cell type.
All that means that estrogen has no were to go, when a serm is in the system. Thus estrogen cannot have any negative effects.
So I ask you again how is estrogen supposed to cause a negative if it has no receptor to bind to.
heckler7
Active member
look dude, I didnt come post here to argue, I read a couple of posts and a guy said he was on dbol a heavy aromatizing drug and saying it doesnt shut you down, I was trying to help those people understand what they needed, I didnt mean for this thread to get derailed, I think we are talking about 2 different things here. if guys wanna run dbol and other steroids and think they wont get estrogen side thats fine, also I see a lot of gyno threads here. just saying
rtmilburn
Well-known member
They wont get estrogen side on dbol if they run with a serm, if its not clomid. As clomid does not have a high enough affinity for the receptors (other than in the hypothalamus and pituitary).
Also you clearly havent read this thread. This whole thread is about the possible mitigation of the suppression caused by steriods with the usage of serms. This is proven but rather a working theory with some evidence to back it up (at least 3 studies and a decent amount of anecdotal reports).
So no one said dbol isnt suppressive. Rather a serm MAY mitigate is SOME of its supression.
NOW I ASK AGAIN READ THIS WHOLE THREAD BEFORE YOU POST AGAIN IN HERE PLEASE!!!!!!
heckler7
Active member
I love dbol and have been using it for over 10 years, it aromatizes heavily you need an AI, you wanna argue it just proves how little you know, even if you knew you didnt know you would still know nothing. JESUS FING CHRIST DUDE drop it alreadyWell... 400 primo is light, dbol not so much lol
It is interesting to see however that a serm does nothing...
rtmilburn
Well-known member
Jesus christ. Never said it doesnt not armotize heavily. Serms prevent all those negative from happening as it has no where to bind to. RickyBlobby help me get through this thick skulled idiot please.
rtmilburn
Well-known member
Also your the one who cannot answer the simple question of how can estrogen cause a negative effect if it has no receptors to bind to.
heckler7
Active member
I posted medical articles on negative effects of high estrogen, are going to deny medical and scientific sources?
rtmilburn
Well-known member
No im not but high estrogen mean sh!t if it has no receptors to bind to. So answer how can it do anything if it can bind to the receptors.
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
In the articles posted, were the estrogen receptors saturated with a SERM? If the receptors are occupied by a SERM, then estrogen cannot get "into" them. They are essentially de-activated. And estrogen cannot do anything positive or negative to a persons body unless it is able to attach to an estrogen receptor.
The SERM occupies all estrogen receptors and basically turns the bad ones off.
heckler7
Active member
lets see if we can find a common ground here and move on.
you say high estrogen is ok just take a serm and block the receptors and you wont get gyno, sure that is true you can take a serm and prevent gyno
I'm saying high estrogen is bad for bodybuilding, arent we all in this to gain muscle, also you will get other negative effects, such as loss of you dick working, horrible acne, prolactin sides, bloating, mood swings, AND GYNO. hardness, skin, prostate, appetite you name it when you feel off 90% of the time is due to low/high estrogen levels.
most people would agree its better to keep your estrogen low as high estrogen is the starting point
you say high estrogen is ok just take a serm and block the receptors and you wont get gyno, sure that is true you can take a serm and prevent gyno
I'm saying high estrogen is bad for bodybuilding, arent we all in this to gain muscle, also you will get other negative effects, such as loss of you dick working, horrible acne, prolactin sides, bloating, mood swings, AND GYNO. hardness, skin, prostate, appetite you name it when you feel off 90% of the time is due to low/high estrogen levels.
most people would agree its better to keep your estrogen low as high estrogen is the starting point
rtmilburn
Well-known member
But how is it going to do that if it has no receptors to bind to.
heckler7
Active member
yinz are going about this backwards
check out this article, note where he says you can avoid all estrogen sides by keeping it balanced
GYNO Mechanics
By Kreas
First of all there are three different types of gyno: estrogen induced, progesterone induced and prolactin induced. Of course you can avoid all three types of gyno by keeping estrogen within the normal range. The precursor to any type of gyno is estrogen! Once you let estro build up you signal to your brain that you have conceived doesn't matter if you are a man or woman keep in mind, your body at this point will have to go through certain processes to prepare you for lactation. Firstly your body will rush to use that estrogen and build up breast tissue (lump) which is mandatory for the lactation process. Once this stage has been completed and you have let estrogen still high your progesterone will increase (estrogen can still remain high) which is an attempt of your body to make the tissue larger and also make your aerolas bigger (puffy and enlarged nipples) again to get them ready for lactation. Last stage of gyno is prolactin/lactation, all previous stages were preparing the body for this moment at this point your progesterone and estrogen will drop and your prolactin will spike, this is when someone starts lactating
Destroying
Member
I guess the only way to “tell” without a blood test is if your balls grow back to their original size.
rtmilburn
Well-known member
No your thinkking backwards. Without a receptor for estrogen to bind to it cannot cause this.
heckler7
Active member
there are 3 estrogens in your body, serms were not designed for men or steroid use, they are designed for women with breast cancer to block the receptors in the breast so new cancer cells dont bind and grow. it doesnt protect your dick, it doesnt protect your prostate, it doesnt promote muscle growth