Chados
Well-known member
No I've never heard that either I'm just speculating wether it's non toxic up to 80 mg. Would be nice to see those results
Liver damage from oral AAS greatly exggerated
- Thread starter RickyBlobby
- Start date
No I've never heard that either I'm just speculating wether it's non toxic up to 80 mg. Would be nice to see those results
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
Good stuff there
I'm thinking the same thing. Except cruising on 15mg. and bloods after 8 weeks on cruise. This of course with my 100mg/ weekly TC.
I am mostly worried about my H&H levels, they were a little high last time I checked, everything else looked good (from TRT100mg). I wasn't drinking enough water then (4 or so bottles of water a day) and have increased to 8 bottles a day (a gallon)
My doc told me to donate blood but I read a couple places that it only thins the blood for a very short period of time.
Side note: I don't see how pharmacies get away with charging $140 for a 10ml vial of TC. That's literally 2 grams of test which can be had for $4. I'm sure the pharm companies pay much less than that too. Highway robbery.
Nac
Well-known member
It seems the major stumbling block here in this argument is a semantic one (a crucial one). Everything else is a red herring.
Spurfy seems to be basing his argument on a specific scientific concept of "toxicity".
Then theres this other really loose lay "brah" version being thrown around.
No-one seems to agree on what "toxicity" even means here lol. "Elevated enzymes" seems too wide of a definition if it just means ALT/AST. But I dunno, is this a medically accepted definition of "hepatotoxicity"?
Spurfy seems to be basing his argument on a specific scientific concept of "toxicity".
Then theres this other really loose lay "brah" version being thrown around.
No-one seems to agree on what "toxicity" even means here lol. "Elevated enzymes" seems too wide of a definition if it just means ALT/AST. But I dunno, is this a medically accepted definition of "hepatotoxicity"?
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
It appears as though spurfy knows what markers to look for that are indicative of damage, like inflammation, the presence of which is denoted in a certain value being elevated. Based on all the studies he has read that marker (cant remember the name, CRT or something) was not elevated in said studies, leading to the conclusion of no DAMAGE from long term anavar usage.
Toxicity is another argument. Almost everything we ingest that is not natural, and some things that are wll be "toxic" to the liver, to varying degrees.
Actual liver damage is what we are afraid of and moderate dose, old school AAS, which have been researched extensively, do not appear to cause any significan damage to the liver even after long term use.
So the moral is, 12 weeks is probably a much more reasonable limit, unless dealing with designers which only God knows what Quack chemist synthesized, and what effects it has on the body.
B5150
Legend
Everything elevates liver enzymes. I imagine it also indicates that it is actually functioning properly as it should.
"Gamma-glutamyl transpeptidase (GGT) test. ... GGT is concentrated in the liver, but it's also present in the gallbladder, spleen, pancreas, and kidneys. GGT blood levels are usually high when the liver is damaged. This test is often done with other tests that measure liver enzymes if there's a possibility of liver damage."
"Gamma-glutamyl transpeptidase (GGT) test. ... GGT is concentrated in the liver, but it's also present in the gallbladder, spleen, pancreas, and kidneys. GGT blood levels are usually high when the liver is damaged. This test is often done with other tests that measure liver enzymes if there's a possibility of liver damage."
Nac
Well-known member
Yip, right. Thats partly why I find Spurfys elevated-heart-rate analogy so intuitively appealing. But fukt if I know if its ultimately an apt one.
Spurfy
Active member
"One-third of study subjects presented more than four-fold increased alanine transaminase activity to evidence liver injury [...] Pre-treatment associations included C-reactive protein"
Genome Medv.5(9); 2013PMC3979026
In the following charts, note the rising of CRP in the second row of tables in the ALT-responders. All of the subjects with elevated ALT also had elevated CRP, because the acetaminophen was causes liver damage. In the oxandrolone studies we see a slight transient elevation of ALT but no elevation of CRP. This is proof of a lack of hepatoxicity in oxandrolone.
Invalid Link Removed
Attachments
Nac
Well-known member
Cool. So obviously a serum marker of that cannot be limited to "raised liver enzymes".
Cos some peepz itt seem to be advocating that elevated (how much, anyway?) liver enzymes can fit with your definition.
Chados
Well-known member
I'm personally fascinated if var doesn't have any toxicity whatsoever. Clearly this thread started with anavar is literally side effect free. It might very well be true that it's not liver toxic or not toxic at low dosage etc but even such a supposedly anabolic compound (again I don't buy this ratios fully and I posted why many times) it seems to show androgenic sides more so than superdrol. Now this might be dose related too and 5mg of anavar could be given to baby's for all I know. I just don't think people should go all nuts on the var now and expect to be side free. Only time will tell what happens to put bodies. If a doctor say its okay it's one thing, what we discuss here is just a discussion.
MrKleen73
Legend
No doubt. I get 15ml for 25 though after insurance so I am pretty happy with that.
I think some people are confusing correlation with causation. If all people with a failing liver have elevated enzyme levels then it must also be true that all people with elevated enzymes must have liver damage... Easy to come to that conclusion and want to defend it even it isn't true.
I don't consider it damage if cell death and regeneration is actually a part of the process in how the liver maintains its ability to filter the blood. If the option is to scar and be useless for filtering or die off and regenerate easily then that is the process not a sign of damage.
It's almost like saying I carry my sheild into battle to protect me from attackers, and then you tell me that the scuff marks in my shield mean that I am also injured when I haven't taken a hit at all, my shield is just doing a great job of protecting me.
Destroying
Member
Hey what was your super prestigious school again where they taught you all of this in the PHD Anavar course? Darn I did t see that one. Also you did say multiple ppl have fun up to 300 mg with no problems or was it your other smart friend there? Even the study you lost above is about 5-10 mg!!!!! Not the 20 you stated earlier. You are at best a moron, at worst a con artist. Only fools scorn knowledge.
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
And by knowledge, you mean propaganda. These are actual reports from real people Invalid Link Removed
Destroying
Member
The reason you feel toxic on some of the pro hormones is because things like Superdrol, Methyl Tren and the like we’re so toxic, the companies who developed them never even took a lot of them to market. That’s why many users report that Superdrol is stronger than Dbol, because it blows it out of the water mg/mg. The Dbol is still toxic, but if you took it at 5-10mg and you were healthy to begin with, you might get away with it for a very long time. The next dude might look really healthy and feel super strong, but maybe his liver is genetically different or damaged or weaker!
Cgkone
Well-known member
Also as anavar being THE best for anabolism.
Chados
Well-known member
You'd love eq. It's not deca or tren but the energy you get and the keepable mass makes it a great addition to any stack. If you get the chance and money isn't a problem try test eq primo and potentially masteron.
Cgkone
Well-known member
Definetely not a moron.
A con very well may be it.
I've been around many.
The good ones are very very smart.
Chados
Well-known member
Haha well you mean the least androgenic or most anabolic per mg?
Cgkone
Well-known member
Cgkone
Well-known member
The best for building real keepable muscle.
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
That's why I said use support supps and listen to your body. And don't push it with compounds other than old school, tried and true AAS.
Destroying
Member
Anecdotal reports on individual usage are not real or respected science. Double blind studies plz...
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
Old Spurf does base his claims off published studies. Do they have published studies for Tren on humans? Superdrol? Doubtful
Personally I don't care if its the best mass builder. I can tell you it is a damn good one, that doesn't cause liver damage, with fewer side effects than anything that may be stronger. That is enough evidence for me to believe it is one of the best AAS if not the best in GENERAL.
Now, If I was trying to blow up in 4 weeks, or be crazy strong and aggressive for a powerlifting meet/ MMA fight etc I would probably chose something else like dbol or a bit of halo
Chados
Well-known member
That I don't know but I doubt. All I know Is that it will be very little muscle but the goal for me with anavar is to lean out not to bulk
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
So you are saying that you would rather take the word of
A)Forum members who never did an oral longer than 6 weeks because they "heard" it was bad
or
B) Numerous people who HAVE done orals for 10, 12, 16, 52+ weeks, NONE of which report having liver problems. Oh AND the advice of an uber knowledgeable AAS "guru" (Mike Arnold)
Interesting. I bet you also think stricter gun laws will keep criminals from having firearms.
Spurfy
Active member
Should I just not post here anymore and ask that my account be deleted, wiping out all of my posts? Would you prefer that?
210LBS
Well-known member
You come on here with a lot of controversial ideas from SERM use to oral AAS use to training time regimens to which AAS is more anabolic to 100 gram protein diets and not counting macros, etc. All of which people have been doing with success for a long time. But now you want to come on here and tell people they've been doing everything wrong all this time. I like to hear different ideas and different ways of doing things, especially when other people have found it works for them in the real world. But it's very difficult to suddenly sell experienced people on entirely new ways when they've spent decades having success doing things the other way. And it's not a knock against you... it's just human nature.
solidsnake
Well-known member
I think it’s worth a try though, there’s nothing much to lose really and everything to gain. I for one am going to give it a try. At least the dosing side of creatine caffeine and var with clomid. I’ve always gone the tried and tested ways and got good results, on the other hand if I dont do this I’ll always wonder .. what if ?
Spurfy
Active member
Firstly, I have never once told anyone their training or nutrition was wrong.
Secondly, I am a pharmacologist, and I look at things from a purely scientific viewpoint. If those views, which I support with a combination of published research and explanations of proposed mechanisms, happen to occasionally produce knowledge that contradicts bodybuilding dogma about drugs, well, that's really not my problem, it's theirs. Consensus doesn't equal correctness.
To conclude: I have science on my side. So, agree with me or disagree, I don't care, I'm still right.
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
His SERMS on cycle argument is valid. I have been preaching the same thing but mostly it falls on deaf ears.
Nac
Well-known member
Well you did say AM training is dumb, to the extent youd refuse a client on this.
Cgkone
Well-known member
Not at all I stated earlier I liked you.
Besides that it far from MY forum.
I'm allowed to be skeptical though.
I've really enjoyed this thread it's one of my favorites
Cgkone
Well-known member
Exactly
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
Youre welcome holmes
. Now if I could just spark as much interest about SERMS on cycle, lolDestroying
Member
So were Arnold and Franco dumb too?? Arnie would force Franco to get up at 6:30am to goto the gym, Franco hated getting up but they went, and trained. But you know better than them I guess. Hear that everyone Arnold and Franco were pretty dumb to train in the morning according to Papa Spurf here... I guess they were pretty dumb as they clearly didn’t win any titles or anything like that.
As for Elevated AST ALT mean the liver is under stress. STRESS = TOXICITY if left ongoing. You claim to have science on your side yet you scoff at double blind respected studies, accuse others of bro science, then you post anecdotal evidence (total bs in the scientific community).
The only part of this thread I agree with is that there is synergy between Creatine and Anavar, All AAS enhance Creatine synthesis in the body, Anavar does this moreso than others. It is worth noting that having a very high level of Creatine in the body for too long a time can increase your creatinine and hinder kidney function. So yeah, even Creatine needs a break once in awhile.
In terms of liver ancillaries in addition to TUDCA and NAC I would look into SAM-e with a B complex. Your liver LOVES SAM-e. So do your muscles as it increases ATP.
Spurfy
Active member
Yes, but only when I've already answered the question and the person is clearly choosing not to get it. I've taught at the college level, I know when people are being deliberately dense.
MrKleen73
Legend
Old Spurf does base his claims off published studies. Do they have published studies for Tren on humans? Superdrol? Doubtful
Personally I don't care if its the best mass builder. I can tell you it is a damn good one, that doesn't cause liver damage, with fewer side effects than anything that may be stronger. That is enough evidence for me to believe it is one of the best AAS if not the best in GENERAL.
Now, If I was trying to blow up in 4 weeks, or be crazy strong and aggressive for a powerlifting meet/ MMA fight etc I would probably chose something else like dbol or a bit of halo
Wait a minute, now you are going crazy and bringing in specificity... stop with all of this trying to be sensible.
All you KNOW? In one of the pages before you said you weren't sure now, kind of playing the mediator now you know it won't provide much muscle again? Plus you just said that you used anavar with the specific goal of leaning out. So no way you were trying to bulk. How so how can you sit there and say you KNOW it will only add a little mass... Many of us have mentioned good gains with it when we ate for gains. You admittedly only use it for leaning up, so of course you didn't gain much if anything in a deficit...
Agreed, but people take idealogical views with gear, and get polarized about their stances. Just look at this thread as proof.
Also, most great breakthroughs in science were met with extreme skepticism and were demonized be the keepers of the old regime. Just look at how the flat earther's felt about those idiots who thought the world might actually be round. Nature is to buck against the change, but for great progress one has to also keep an open mind.
Until recently eggs were the devil, and now they are considered healthy to the point Weight watchers considers them a 0 point food that you can eat without restriction... People still buck against that. I tell my Dad inflammation is the bigger enemy of his CVD than dietary cholesterol and regardless of nutrition certs and loving to research this kind of stuff he still tells me I don't know what I am talking about.
Exactly... I was told i was insane when I started the Lean Gains IF thread on here several years ago. Old Kleen trying that new wierd crap out. I was going to lose all my gains and look like an emaciated smurf within months... Now it is a very popular way to eat for people in all lifestyles and sports too. I think that thread had a few hundred pages the last time I looked and became a huge resource for many to get info from.
Got to try things out if the science looks like it is solid and the anecdotal evidence seems to have some validity as well. That is what we have here. Something new, that might just work and if it isn't spectacular then I just ran a regular var run and nothing lost...
Nac
Well-known member
Well, youre either a Newton in an era of Coppernicus's, or youre just plain Cray-cray lol
Spurfy
Active member
I don't knock old school bodybuilding, they did what they did because there was no science and they were pioneering something. Some things they embraced were excellent, some were not, and some were just plain voodoo. They didn't have the benefit of the internet and access to decades worth of research relevant to their sport, so they just experimented.
But there's no excuse today. If you're going to discuss drugs (science), then you damn well better be willing to listen to science.You don't get to bring your layperson beliefs about things and assert that they are fact unless you have a scientific basis for your assertion. Those are the rules, and I didn't invent them.
MrKleen73
Legend
Did he use the word dumb? I may not have noticed if he did, and he was talking to me in that post. I just took what he said to mean that for how he works with clients and the FAST RESULTS he promises that he does not believe he can provide the same level of results for those who lift in the AM.
Their are definitely physiological differences in the AM, when cortisol levels are highest to stimulate lipid catabolism to give you energy to go hunt and forage for food. You are in a preservation mode naturally in the morning.
People have done studies over the difference, and it is pretty much a given that performance is always best in the afternoon - early evenings. Not just due to having eaten because glycogen is stored in the muscle overnight there is not shortage of it in the AM for a workout. The CNS is behaving differently your hormonal reactions are different in the morning there are a lot of things that are different. Most training programs, and even when working with coaches, most coaches push for evening or afternoon workouts when possible, or the ones I have worked with did.
I love lifting in the morning because when I do I hardly ever miss a workout, but I won't even begin to pretend that my afternoon or evening workouts are not always better sessions. When I am training in the AM I leave a weekend day to go in during the afternoon to really kill things because I can perform better later in the day.
Destroying
Member
Again you fail miserably to take your own advice. If you were an actual PHD you would dismiss this anecdotal crap and find actually respected papers to back your points, and I’m not talking about a paper that says it’s ok to run 10 mg a day of Anavar. I want a study about bodybuilding doses. Franco Invented most of the equipment that we currently use in the gym, but what did he know, he was so stupid that he trained in the morning! He wa so weak that he could only lift cars and blow up hot water balloons until they popped.. what a dummy. If only he could have had the benefit of your wisdom Papa Spurf.
Nac
Well-known member
if Im under oath, no Im not prepared to state he used the word "dumb".
I personally lift "better" in the AM, fasted, cos thats what Ive adapted to physiologically and psychologically.
Same when I lifted in PM.
Chados
Well-known member
I see what you did there. I use it as a finisher cause no steroid will give me large gains at the end of the cycle when I already gained 15 pounds. Var is not as good of a mass builder as say superdrol and I stand by that. I have never stated I haven't used it as a bulker either, I use it for a specific reason cause I know what it does despite what spurfy is trying to make me believe. It shreds you up a little but it doesn't beat winstrol. I have never stated it being a great massbuilder. Keepable gains yes it is but it's probably not the best (that's what he asked) and it's kinda hard to tell since you always gain a bit far later on and considering how little anavar gives in size I just can't tell how much muscle I have left. Maybe I said i try it myself as he said and I will come back with a review? And if I'm being blown away by adding coffee and creatine I promise I will admit I'm wrong, appologize to spurfy for not trusting his knowledge and never use anything else.
B5150
Legend
My AST/ALT liver enzymes elevate from exercise. IT IS NOT TOXIC!!!!!
rtmilburn
Well-known member
Spurfy RickyBlobby I know you guys are big proponents of serms on cycle. I was wonder your thoughts on naltrexone in addition to that.