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Liver damage from oral AAS greatly exggerated

Unless you’re a pro there’s no need for such extreme measures. You won’t feel sick until your liver is really messed up.

Take Superdrol. One of the most toxic, at 20mg + you feel lethargic and headache, but that’s your blood pressure. You still can not feel what it does to your liver.

I have found the studies about Anavar raising AST and ALT. I am not allowed to post links or pics as I am new to the forum, but I would like some way of sending you this info. If you are on CJM or NM I can send there.

Good luck, whatever you do.

Remember, you only have one liver and there’s a lot of toxins for it to clean out of your body. We already have an extremely high toxic load just from environmental factors, that Anavar may not do much, especially compared with Anadrol or something. But it does still have an impact, big or small.

I agree it depends on you, your dose, tolerance, toxic load and potential sub clinical liver issues which could become clinical liver issues if pushed over the edge.
 
I understand your concern, but as stated earlier this thread contains advanced discussion and is not intended for beginners to take the original post and run with it. It was meant to generate discussion and that it did.

I believe there is much information in this thread supporting the original post and I believe the topic was a good learning experience if you read through the entire thing.

My whole point is the same people who are preaching test/ tren/ dbol cycles are the same ones putting a strict 6 week limit on orals, when the aforementioned cycle will do much more to shorten your lifespan than, say, a 12 week var cycle, especially if the proper precautionary measures are taken.. It is just ridiculous in my opinion. Sorry if I re-iterated most of what I said in my last post.
 
I understand your concern, but as stated earlier this thread contains advanced discussion and is not intended for beginners to take the original post and run with it. It was meant to generate discussion and that it did.

I believe there is much information in this thread supporting the original post and I believe the topic was a good learning experience if you read through the entire thing.

My whole point is the same people who are preaching test/ tren/ dbol cycles are the same ones putting a strict 6 week limit on orals, when the aforementioned cycle will do much more to shorten your lifespan than, say, a 12 week var cycle, especially if the proper precautionary measures are taken.. It is just ridiculous in my opinion. Sorry if I re-iterated most of what I said in my last post.

Just because I don’t think it’s a good idea to run toxic orals forever does not make me a ‘Beginner’. I’m pushing 40 son, watched a few of my friends lose everything because they knew better... With age comes wisdom; but not a new liver.
 
Just because I don’t think it’s a good idea to run toxic orals forever does not make me a ‘Beginner’. I’m pushing 40 son, watched a few of my friends lose everything because they knew better... With age comes wisdom; but not a new liver.

Son? lol.... We are probably close to the same age. Fool ;)

The liver actually continuously regenerates itself, so yeah, technically age does come with a new liver. I've seen several family members consume 10 GRAMS of Tylenol daily due to their pill habit, drink hard liquor regularly, been at it from 10 to 35 years now and they still have functioning livers. Not going to say they wont have premature liver failure, but still. Do you think dbol is harming your liver more than 10g Tylenol a day? NO FUK!N WAY IN H3LL
 
This is written by Mike Arnold first we have ratios.

When it comes to women and AAS, the first thing she needs to know is that all steroids can potentially cause androgenic (masculinizing) side effects in all tissues, as androgens are not selective in terms of AR (androgen receptor) binding…they simply possess differing degrees of potency in these tissues. In laymen’s terms, every steroid has the potential to cause every androgenic side effect. Not a single one is exempt. They simply vary in their ability to do so. One mistake many prospective steroid users make is using androgenic ratings as a measure of androgenic potency. They believe this tell them how likely a certain drug is to cause androgenic side effects throughout the entire body, without realizing that androgenic ratings were used to determine androgenic potency in only one tissue—the prostate. Being that women don’t have prostates, androgenic ratings are completely worthless in helping a women assess androgenic risk in tissues such as the vocal chords, scalp, skin, clitoris, etc.

Just because a steroid may have a high androgenic rating in prostate tissue, it does NOT necessarily mean that it has that same degree of potency in other areas of the body. Likewise, having a weak androgenic rating does not necessarily indicate reduced potency in non-prostate tissues. There are many steroids which demonstrate this type of imbalance. Masteron is a great example. With an androgenic rating of 40, it would be considered below average in the androgenic rating department. Yet, experience has shown it to be pretty harsh on the hair line, causing significant hair loss in a large percentage of genetically predisposed individuals. Clearly, having a low androgenic rating does not mean that a drug is a weak androgenic in general. The bottom line is that each steroid must be evaluated individually when attempting to asses side effect risk.


Second we have anavar vs superdrol

Since androgenic activity in non-prostate tissues was never scientifically measured, the best we can do is guess based on real-world experience. While this isn’t ideal, it’s all we’ve got and it is certainly a hell of a lot better than nothing at all. Fortunately, the combined experience of generations of bodybuilders has given us a pretty good idea of how each steroid effects in the body, particularly when it comes to external side effects like hair loss, voice changes, hair growth, etc. Although some may find the following recommendation to be somewhat controversial, extensive personal experience (in myself, clients, and many others I know) has proven it to be an effective and relatively safe course of action. I am talking about Superdrol. Yes, that Superdrol.

When evaluated purely from a masculinizing standpoint, I have found SD to provide the best balance of growth to masculinizing side effects. As most of you know by now, SD is an extremely powerful drug, with many bodybuilders claiming that no other drug ever allowed them to build as much muscle tissue as quickly as SD did. I will personally attest to this fact, as have many 1,000’s of other users all over the world. However, its incredible myotrophic potency has led many to assume that its androgenic character must be similar, when in reality it is extremely mild in comparison to almost all other steroids. In fact, SD’s has a Q ratio of 20:1 (the same as Anavar), which basically means that its anabolic effect is 20X greater than its androgenic effect. Even though Q Ratios are based partially on a steroid’s androgenic potency in the prostate, anabolic ratings can oftentimes give us a good idea of how a steroid might act in other tissues. In this case Superdrol displays very weak androgenic activity in many androgen responsive tissues, including the scalp, skin, and likely the vocal chords as well.

Overall, I have found it to be about as mild as Anavar (in terms of masculinization) when compared on a mg to mg basis. However, SD is a much more potent growth agent, with just 5 mg/day providing a growth response several times greater than an equivalent dose of Anavar. This increased myotrophic potency allows the drug to be used in one of two ways. She can either experience significantly greater growth with a side effect risk similar to Anavar, or she can experience roughly the same amount of growth with a side effect risk significantly below Anavar.

In other words, SD is actually less likely to cause masculinizing side effects than Anavar when used at doses that supply an equivalent muscle building effect. Again, this is due to its much more favorable androgenic to myotrophic ratio. Just to give you an idea of how strong this stuff is, most women will gain more muscle with just 10 mg of SD than they will with 50 mg of Anavar. Or, if a woman wishes to minimize the risk of side effects, she could use as little as 2-3 mg/day while still making gaining equivalent to 15-20 mg of Anavar. With such a low dose the possibility of experiencing meaningful adverse effects is almost non-existent.

We could always tag him Mike Arnold and try to drag him in here for comment...
 
Spurfy seriously speaking, if you have found something that nobody knows about and nobody experienced while using it I will applaud you but you gotta understand that it's a bit hard to believe what you're saying considering a whole professional bodybuilding world will claim that tren is the most powerful steroid they've ever used. You have posted 0 studies to prove the caffeine and creatine theory. You also stated earlier most people run serms too high yet you suggest 120mg /day. This is your theory only and wether you're serious or not I don't know. Regardless I'm pretty sure the truth will come out pretty soon cause you told everyone how to do it. If you're serious good luck to you and I really mean that. If youre a scam (that know what you're saying is just a lie) well I really don't care cause I'm not gonna spend money on you since you already told me how to run it.
A few people on this thread will give him money.
He runs a very good verbal hustle.
 
Guys wether var is damaging to the liver or not we clearly don't really know. There are apparently studies saying both. Let's keep it civil, we don't need to have a bully mentality when speaking. I believe it is liver toxic to some degree but I could be wrong. Best thing is to go to a doctor and see for yourselves
I'm guilty of that.
I get pissed and start talking smack( because I can't smack people over the internet)
But that's 75% of why I think spurfy isn't what he says he is.....
He starts clowning people WAY to quick to be what he says he is.
"My prestigious institute of education"
Yeah right!! And I use to lift at west side but me and Louie Simmons butted heads too much about reverse hypers..
So I split.
 
Son? lol.... We are probably close to the same age. Fool

The liver actually continuously regenerates itself, so yeah, technically age does come with a new liver. I've seen several family members consume 10 GRAMS of Tylenol daily due to their pill habit, drink hard liquor regularly, been at it from 10 to 35 years now and they still have functioning livers. Not going to say they wont have premature liver failure, but still. Do you think dbol is harming your liver more than 10g Tylenol a day? NO FUK!N WAY IN H3LL

Um, if you read my earlier post I clearly state that no pharmaceutical has caused more liver failure than Tylenol. Your liver regenerating is not the same as a new liver. You could be generating cancer cells, or blood filled cysts. Plus if you do not give your liver time off the regeneration is a joke. If your family takes 10 grams of Tylenol a day that explains to me why you’re so stupid you think you can pop 300mg of 17aa AAS.
 
If your family takes 10 grams of Tylenol a day that explains to me why you’re so stupid you think you can pop 300mg of 17aa AAS.
Another brilliant post, old man. The tendencies of my in-laws were hereditarily passed down to me. I guess your family is perfect too by the way.

Anyway, this study contains information on acetaminophen ingestion at the max recommended dose of 4 grams (8 loritab 10/500's) a day, and after a very short period of time, only 7 days, their ALT was at almost 600 reference range >40...........AND THE STUDY REFERRED THE IMPACT TO THE LIVER AS MILD EVEN AT ALMOST 600 ALT

Now double that amount of Tylenol, throw in a half a fifth of crown royal a day and imagine what 10 years of that will do to the liver. With your flawed, propaganda based logic you would think these people would have been dead after 2 months. But guess what, one person in particular started this lifestyle at 18 years old and is now is 55, running up and down bourbon street 4-5 nights a week drunk off his ass taking every pill in sight. Not that I wold ever recommend this to anyone, but it goes to show you how resilient the liver is.

See for yourself:
Invalid Link Removed

Key Points



Medication:
Acetaminophen (4 g daily)

Pattern:
Hepatocellular (R=14) [alkaline phosphatase levels normal]

Severity:
Mild (ALT elevations without jaundice) (ALT level of 575!!!)

Latency:
7 days

Recovery:
~2 weeks
 
A few people on this thread will give him money.
He runs a very good verbal hustle.
That he does. Uses real facts to back up the stuff that cannot be proven, then says trust me. So people are convinced, plus he has really good linguistics skills, making him more believable.
 
Another brilliant post, old man. The tendencies of my in-laws were hereditarily passed down to me. I guess your family is perfect too by the way.

Anyway, this study contains information on acetaminophen ingestion at the max recommended dose of 4 grams (8 loritab 10/500's) a day, and after a very short period of time, only 7 days, their ALT was at almost 600 reference range >40...........AND THE STUDY REFERRED THE IMPACT TO THE LIVER AS MILD EVEN AT ALMOST 600 ALT

Now double that amount of Tylenol, throw in a half a fifth of crown royal a day and imagine what 10 years of that will do to the liver. With your flawed, propaganda based logic you would think these people would have been dead after 2 months. But guess what, one person in particular started this lifestyle at 18 years old and is now is 55, running up and down bourbon street 4-5 nights a week drunk off his ass taking every pill in sight. Not that I wold ever recommend this to anyone, but it goes to show you how resilient the liver is.

See for yourself:
Invalid Link Removed
I think that would be any of us that grew up down there. I use to take Tylenol like it was going out of style, and drank Jack Daniels everynight in Houma since I was 18. Dont do it anymore, but I'm still here after over 20 years of doing it.
 
Unless you’re a pro there’s no need for such extreme measures. You won’t feel sick until your liver is really messed up.

Take Superdrol. One of the most toxic, at 20mg + you feel lethargic and headache, but that’s your blood pressure. You still can not feel what it does to your liver.

I have found the studies about Anavar raising AST and ALT. I am not allowed to post links or pics as I am new to the forum, but I would like some way of sending you this info. If you are on CJM or NM I can send there.

Good luck, whatever you do.

Remember, you only have one liver and there’s a lot of toxins for it to clean out of your body. We already have an extremely high toxic load just from environmental factors, that Anavar may not do much, especially compared with Anadrol or something. But it does still have an impact, big or small.

I agree it depends on you, your dose, tolerance, toxic load and potential sub clinical liver issues which could become clinical liver issues if pushed over the edge.
while ON 50mg of superdrol with only alpha lipoic acid at 600-800mg

Invalid Link Removed
 
Another brilliant post, old man. The tendencies of my in-laws were hereditarily passed down to me. I guess your family is perfect too by the way.

Anyway, this study contains information on acetaminophen ingestion at the max recommended dose of 4 grams (8 loritab 10/500's) a day, and after a very short period of time, only 7 days, their ALT was at almost 600 reference range >40...........AND THE STUDY REFERRED THE IMPACT TO THE LIVER AS MILD EVEN AT ALMOST 600 ALT

Now double that amount of Tylenol, throw in a half a fifth of crown royal a day and imagine what 10 years of that will do to the liver. With your flawed, propaganda based logic you would think these people would have been dead after 2 months. But guess what, one person in particular started this lifestyle at 18 years old and is now is 55, running up and down bourbon street 4-5 nights a week drunk off his ass taking every pill in sight. Not that I wold ever recommend this to anyone, but it goes to show you how resilient the liver is.

See for yourself:
Invalid Link Removed

Key Points



Medication:
Acetaminophen (4 g daily)

Pattern:
Hepatocellular (R=14) [alkaline phosphatase levels normal]

Severity:
Mild (ALT elevations without jaundice) (ALT level of 575!!!)

Latency:
7 days

Recovery:
~2 weeks

Thank you for translating this cause I didn't have time to read through it. I have always stated that livertoxicity with aas should be taken seriously if we're gonna run it for a long time. I always said that pharmacy stuff is more toxic and can kill you instantly. However I think what he's saying and I might correct me on this one. He's saying that doing anavar for an absurd amount of time probably isn't smart Regardless of there are other things more toxic.

People drink for 50 years almost every day and I feel sick just thinking about drinking every month. I know it's hurting me but that doesn't mean I wont outlive the guy who doesn't drink and vice versa. We're all different and nobody will tolerate exactly the same as the guy next door.
 
Thank you for translating this cause I didn't have time to read through it. I have always stated that livertoxicity with aas should be taken seriously if we're gonna run it for a long time. I always said that pharmacy stuff is more toxic and can kill you instantly. However I think what he's saying and I might correct me on this one. He's saying that doing anavar for an absurd amount of time probably isn't smart Regardless of there are other things more toxic.

People drink for 50 years almost every day and I feel sick just thinking about drinking every month. I know it's hurting me but that doesn't mean I wont outlive the guy who doesn't drink and vice versa. We're all different and nobody will tolerate exactly the same as the guy next door.
You're right, not everyone can take the same level of abuse, but of the many substance abusers I grew up around none have had liver related problems. And I know plenty that walk around with ALT ranges probably in the 1000's almost every day of their lives.

What is an absurd amount time to you, for taking anavar?
 
I think that would be any of us that grew up down there. I use to take Tylenol like it was going out of style, and drank Jack Daniels everynight in Houma since I was 18. Dont do it anymore, but I'm still here after over 20 years of doing it.

Yeah, destroying just totally helped me prove my point. Mild Tylenol usage elevated ALT levels to 575, but in his study anavar (albeit mild dosages) only increased ALT to around 60)

This tells me Tylenol is far more dangerous than a mild AAS like anavar yet people take it for years, drink with it etc with no liver issues.
 
You're right, not everyone can take the same level of abuse, but of the many substance abusers I grew up around none have had liver related problems. And I know plenty that walk around with ALT ranges probably in the 1000's almost every day of their lives.

What is an absurd amount time to you, for taking anavar?

I dont know that at all. I'm just thinking this (there are no liver damage at all) might suggest that one could do it indefinitely without having any chance to cause some damage. I think regardless that's a risk each one should take by free will. I am not willing to do it year round myself and it's not really cause of my liver but since it seem to have androgenic properties which in the long run could be a concern with any aas, I've also read it raises bad cholesterol.

I fully agree with you cause I've had people in my life drinking forever with no liver damage but instead heart problems, stroke, high blood pressure. I personally think listening to someone over the internet saying it's non toxic should be taken with caution and for people who doesn't know better it's good when people with more experience give their opinion.
 
Yeah, destroying just totally helped me prove my point. Mild Tylenol usage elevated ALT levels to 575, but in his study anavar (albeit mild dosages) only increased ALT to around 60)

This tells me Tylenol is far more dangerous than a mild AAS like anavar yet people take it for years, drink with it etc with no liver issues.

It is for sure more liver toxic, I bet it beats any oral aas actually. This doesn't mean we should use it forever. Even if the chances are small the liver will fail we are still pushing the boundaries. Now people don't wanna eat McDonald's every day either just because of this.
 
Yeah, destroying just totally helped me prove my point. Mild Tylenol usage elevated ALT levels to 575, but in his study anavar (albeit mild dosages) only increased ALT to around 60)

This tells me Tylenol is far more dangerous than a mild AAS like anavar yet people take it for years, drink with it etc with no liver issues.

Var has zero liver toxicity. Elevated liver enzymes mean nothing unless CRP is also elevated. Without accompanying liver inflammation, elevated liver enzymes are not an indication of liver damage or stress.

Liver enzymes elevate in order to break down hard to break down drugs, they don't elevate because the liver is suffering damage.They only indicate that the liver is working harder. People confuse this.

I'll use the heart analogy again: Your heart-rate elevates when you're running -- this doesn't mean your heart is suffering damage.

There has never been a single case of documented liver toxicity or liver failure with Var, and it's been in widespread medical use since the 1990s, including in patient populations with severely impaired liver function.

Everyone is free to believe what they want, but the fact remains: Oxandrolone produces no liver toxicity.

Anyone who disagrees and wants to argue this needs to cite a valid source: Show me a case report of liver damage or failure from oxandrolone, or a study showing elevated CRP from oxandrolone.
 
It is for sure more liver toxic, I bet it beats any oral aas actually. This doesn't mean we should use it forever. Even if the chances are small the liver will fail we are still pushing the boundaries. Now people don't wanna eat McDonald's every day either just because of this.

I don't think it should be used forever either. But I think 6 weeks is BS, you are just limiting your gains. 12 weeks sounds pretty safe for a proven AAS like dbol, tbol, winny, var. Especially with TUDCA or NAC being utilized. THAT is what I'm trying to say. Designers now, I don't know. I have however seen ALT from a fairly harsh methyl designer plus 3 non methlys ran for 8 weeks, and their ALT levels were less than that of mild Tylenol usage after only a week. Dunno, you decide.
 
I don't think it should be used forever either. But I think 6 weeks is BS, you are just limiting your gains. 12 weeks sounds pretty safe for a proven AAS like dbol, tbol, winny, var. Especially with TUDCA or NAC being utilized. THAT is what I'm trying to say. Designers now, I don't know. I have however seen ALT from a fairly harsh methyl designer plus 3 non methlys ran for 8 weeks, and their ALT levels were less than that of mild Tylenol usage after only a week. Dunno, you decide.

Well yes and no. I don't see more than 6 weeks on orals doing that much cause the gains are so quick and will slow down heavily. I'm not really scared using it longer though. Maybe at a low dosage it's worth running a much longer time I dont know, just never had a personally good experience with it.
 
Some studies demonstrating that oxandrolone has no liver toxicity:

"Serum liver enzymes AST and ALT increased postburn in controls but decreased to the normal range at 17 to 22 days postburn [...] Oxandrolone had no effect on serum C-reactive protein"
Ann Surg. 2007 Sep; 246(3): 351–362.

"Despite the higher protein intake in the oxandrolone group, there was no difference in nitrogen balance, albumin, CRP"
Ann Surg. 2004 Sep; 240(3): 472–480.

"there was no change in ultrasensitive C-reactive protein levels at week 12, suggesting that inflammation was not more common in the oxandrolone group"
The Journals of Gerontology: Series A, Volume 60, Issue 12, 1 December 2005, Pages 1586–1592

"To assess for evidence of inflammation, we evaluated the changes in ultrasensitive C-reactive protein (CRP) [...] there was no change in ultrasensitive CRP levels at week 12 (Table 3) or week 24"
J Appl Physiol (1985). 2004 Mar;96(3):1055-62. Epub 2003 Oct 24.

"Two hundred sixty-two HIV-infected men with documented 10% to 20% weight loss or body mass index < or =20 kg/m were randomized to placebo or to 20, 40, or 80 mg of oxandrolone daily [...] Treatment was generally well tolerated but accompanied by significant increases in transaminases"
J Acquir Immune Defic Syndr. 2006 Mar;41(3):304-14.

"There has been increasing interest in the development of effective agents that can be safely used to promote anabolism in the clinical setting for patients with chronic wasting conditions as well as in the prevention and treatment of frailty associated with loss of muscle tissue in aging (sarcopenia). One such agent is the anabolic androgenic steroid (AAS) oxandrolone, which has been used in such clinical situations as HIV-related muscle wasting, severe burn injury, trauma following major surgery, neuromuscular disorders and alcoholic hepatitis for over 30 years. In the US, oxandrolone is the only AAS that is US FDA-approved for restitution of weight loss after severe trauma, major surgery or infections, malnutrition due to alcoholic cirrhosis, and Duchenne's or Becker's muscular dystrophy. [...] oxandrolone appears not to exhibit the serious hepatotoxic effects (jaundice, cholestatic hepatitis, peliosis hepatis, hyperplasias and neoplasms) attributed to the C17alpha-alkylated AASs."
Drugs. 2004;64(7):725-50.

Oandrolone prescribing information:

DESCRIPTION

Oxandrin® (oxandrolone) oral tablets contain 2.5 mg or 10 mg of the anabolic steroid oxandrolone.

Oxandrolone is 17β-hydroxy-17α-methyl-2-oxa-5α-androstan-3-one with the following structural formula:


Overdosage & Contraindications

OVERDOSE

No symptoms or signs associated with overdosage have been reported. It is possible that sodium and water retention may occur.

The oral LD50 of oxandrolone in mice and dogs is greater than 5,000 mg/kg. No specific antidote is known, but gastric lavage may be used.

CONTRAINDICATIONS:

Known or suspected carcinoma of the prostate or the male breast.
Carcinoma of the breast in females with hypercalcemia (androgenic anabolic steroids may stimulate osteolytic bone resorption).
Pregnancy, because of possible masculinization of the fetus. Oxandrin (oxandrolone) has been shown to cause embryotoxicity, fetotoxicity, infertility, and masculinization of female animal offspring when given in doses 9 times the human dose.
Nephrosis, the nephrotic phase of nephritis.
Hypercalcemia.

I don't see "impaired liver function" or "acute liver failure" anywhere on that list. If oxandrolone was liver toxic, it would be contraindicated in those patient populations.

Oxandrolone is simply not liver toxic. At all.

You can believe some fear-mongering, pharmacologically-ignorant guy on a message board, who has zero data to support his claims, or you can believe science.

This is the last post I'll make on this topic. I consider this matter settled.
 
Var has zero liver toxicity. Elevated liver enzymes mean nothing unless CRP is also elevated. Without accompanying liver inflammation, elevated liver enzymes are not an indication of liver damage or stress.

Liver enzymes elevate in order to break down hard to break down drugs, they don't elevate because the liver is suffering damage.They only indicate that the liver is working harder. People confuse this.

I'll use the heart analogy again: Your heart-rate elevates when you're running -- this doesn't mean your heart is suffering damage.

There has never been a single case of documented liver toxicity or liver failure with Var, and it's been in widespread medical use since the 1990s, including in patient populations with severely impaired liver function.

Everyone is free to believe what they want, but the fact remains: Oxandrolone produces no liver toxicity.

Anyone who disagrees and wants to argue this needs to cite a valid source: Show me a case report of liver damage or failure from oxandrolone, or a study showing elevated CRP from oxandrolone.

Received this in a PM from a forum member. Wondering your thoughts on this:


You are wrong about enzymes and liver damage

Enzymes like AST and ALT are intracellular. Now these are not specific to liver, so you can get natural elevations with working out(sometime 1.5 to 2x above baseline depending on the individual and workload) for more then one reason, there are a large amount of these enzyme within the liver. So much so that certain blood levels of AST and ALT can only be correlated to liver damage.

Why?

The reason these become elevated is because the liver cells are literally releasing these due to cells dying and releasing contents into the bloodstream. At a certain level we can say that these blood levels of these enzymes can only come from a liver currently undergoing its cells bursting. In other words damage.

ALT and AST are a sign of damaged cells and many time correlate to liver damage which is why along with other signs is a marker of liver damage.
 
Some studies demonstrating that oxandrolone has no liver toxicity:



Oandrolone prescribing information:



I don't see "impaired liver function" or "acute liver failure" anywhere on that list. If oxandrolone was liver toxic, it would be contraindicated in those patient populations.

Oxandrolone is simply not liver toxic. At all.

You can believe some fear-mongering, pharmacologically-ignorant guy on a message board, who has zero data to support his claims, or you can believe science.

This is the last post I'll make on this topic. I consider this matter settled.

It says that symptoms has not been shown. That could mean either that it's not toxic or that the test has been restricted to a certain dosage. Not sayint either or here but it doesn't say how much were given
 
. I don't see more than 6 weeks on orals doing that much cause the gains are so quick and will slow down heavily.
SOME compounds. SD, DMZ, EPI, other designers yes. You start feeling like **** and your workouts suffer as well as your body so yes the gains will slow. I don't think this holds true for many old school AAS.
 
Thank you for translating this cause I didn't have time to read through it. I have always stated that livertoxicity with aas should be taken seriously if we're gonna run it for a long time. I always said that pharmacy stuff is more toxic and can kill you instantly. However I think what he's saying and I might correct me on this one. He's saying that doing anavar for an absurd amount of time probably isn't smart Regardless of there are other things more toxic.

People drink for 50 years almost every day and I feel sick just thinking about drinking every month. I know it's hurting me but that doesn't mean I wont outlive the guy who doesn't drink and vice versa. We're all different and nobody will tolerate exactly the same as the guy next door.

He was also blowing things out of proportion regarding doses... Spurfy specifically said he had run Anavar with blood work for over a year. He also said he ran low dose blasts of 20-30mgs a day, and 5mg throughout the rest of the year. This is not some crazy massive or irresponsible dose like what Destroyer seems to be implying is what is being championed here.

Also, I don't know that a bunch of people are looking to get on the Var all year train. If someone wants to and is also willing to do the blood work he did then I don't see it as a problem and could be an excellent learning experience. We already know that 10mg a day is fine for children for up to 5 years without causing liver damage... I don't see why 5mg a day would be an issue for an healthy adult.

Var has zero liver toxicity. Elevated liver enzymes mean nothing unless CRP is also elevated. Without accompanying liver inflammation, elevated liver enzymes are not an indication of liver damage or stress.

Liver enzymes elevate in order to break down hard to break down drugs, they don't elevate because the liver is suffering damage.They only indicate that the liver is working harder. People confuse this.

I'll use the heart analogy again: Your heart-rate elevates when you're running -- this doesn't mean your heart is suffering damage.

There has never been a single case of documented liver toxicity or liver failure with Var, and it's been in widespread medical use since the 1990s, including in patient populations with severely impaired liver function.

Everyone is free to believe what they want, but the fact remains: Oxandrolone produces no liver toxicity.

Anyone who disagrees and wants to argue this needs to cite a valid source: Show me a case report of liver damage or failure from oxandrolone, or a study showing elevated CRP from oxandrolone.

Seems maybe there could be a little point of confusion here for most with the wording.

I would assume that Oxandralone has some toxicity, but not enough to harm a functional liver... just enough to make it work harder to clear the compound? Wouldn't the mild toxicity in this case be the catalyst, or "the running" from the heart analogy you used in this case. IE the added stress that makes it work harder. Not necessarily damaging it but still toxic enough to simply make it work a little harder?
 
SOME compounds. SD, DMZ, EPI, other designers yes. You start feeling like **** and your workouts suffer as well as your body so yes the gains will slow. I don't think this holds true for many old school AAS.

True but ive never felt it with anything. It might be so mildly toxic that we need 500mg /day but then we probably also feel like **** for other reasons.
 
Some studies demonstrating that oxandrolone has no liver toxicity:



Oandrolone prescribing information:



I don't see "impaired liver function" or "acute liver failure" anywhere on that list. If oxandrolone was liver toxic, it would be contraindicated in those patient populations.

Oxandrolone is simply not liver toxic. At all.

You can believe some fear-mongering, pharmacologically-ignorant guy on a message board, who has zero data to support his claims, or you can believe science.

This is the last post I'll make on this topic. I consider this matter settled.

CRT was not affected and inflammation was not more common in the oxandrolone group. Both are required for damage to occur. neither are present. I cant verify this statement but this is what he is getting at.
 
Received this in a PM from a forum member. Wondering your thoughts on this:


You are wrong about enzymes and liver damage

Enzymes like AST and ALT are intracellular. Now these are not specific to liver, so you can get natural elevations with working out(sometime 1.5 to 2x above baseline depending on the individual and workload) for more then one reason, there are a large amount of these enzyme within the liver. So much so that certain blood levels of AST and ALT can only be correlated to liver damage.

This is true. Liver enzymes in the 1000s are clear evidence of liver damage, but we will always see an accompanying increase in CRP at these levels. This is how liver damage is chemically assessed -- sharply elevated liver enzymes in conjunction with elevated inflammatory markers (CRP, TNF-a, IL-6, NF-kB, etc). Liver inflammation is 100% evidence of toxicity.

The reason these become elevated is because the liver cells are literally releasing these due to cells dying and releasing contents into the bloodstream.

This is false. Liver enzyme *can* elevate because of this, they can also elevate in the presence of a drug that requires more effort to break down. If this were not so, then *any* detectable liver enzymes would be proof of liver damage, if the only source is from cells dying.

At a certain level we can say that these blood levels of these enzymes can only come from a liver currently undergoing its cells bursting. In other words damage.

True, but confirmation of actual liver damage can only be made with accompanying serologic testing for inflammatory markers.

ALT and AST are a sign of damaged cells and many time correlate to liver damage which is why along with other signs is a marker of liver damage.

False. If this were so, then a healthy liver should produce no ALT or AST and these enzymes should be undetectable on blood tests.
 
He was also blowing things out of proportion regarding doses... Spurfy specifically said he had run Anavar with blood work for over a year. He also said he ran low dose blasts of 20-30mgs a day, and 5mg throughout the rest of the year. This is not some crazy massive or irresponsible dose like what Destroyer seems to be implying is what is being championed here.

Also, I don't know that a bunch of people are looking to get on the Var all year train. If someone wants to and is also willing to do the blood work he did then I don't see it as a problem and could be an excellent learning experience. We already know that 10mg a day is fine for children for up to 5 years without causing liver damage... I don't see why 5mg a day would be an issue for an healthy adult.



Seems maybe there could be a little point of confusion here for most with the wording.

I would assume that Oxandralone has some toxicity, but not enough to harm a functional liver... just enough to make it work harder to clear the compound? Wouldn't the mild toxicity in this case be the catalyst, or "the running" from the heart analogy you used in this case. IE the added stress that makes it work harder. Not necessarily damaging it but still toxic enough to simply make it work a little harder?

No, it literally has ZERO toxicity. I don't know how I can make this more clear. ZERO. NONE. NIL.
 
I would assume that Oxandralone has some toxicity, but not enough to harm a functional liver... just enough to make it work harder to clear the compound? Wouldn't the mild toxicity in this case be the catalyst, or "the running" from the heart analogy you used in this case. IE the added stress that makes it work harder. Not necessarily damaging it but still toxic enough to simply make it work a little harder?
Yes, I am fairly certain this is basically what he is implying. However others will argue that ANY AST level is indicative of cell destruction, or damage.
 
It says that symptoms has not been shown. That could mean either that it's not toxic or that the test has been restricted to a certain dosage. Not sayint either or here but it doesn't say how much were given

No liver toxicity even at 80 mg a day reported in a published study in humans. Can you read?
 
I should clarify: Liver enzymes *do* elevate when liver cells are destroyed, but this is not the only reason they elevate. Transient elevations above normal occur all the time and are no cause for concern, they are simply the liver working harder.

When we see very high elevations, this is usually indicative of liver cell destruction.
 
CRT was not affected and inflammation was not more common in the oxandrolone group. Both are required for damage to occur. neither are present. I cant verify this statement but this is what he is getting at.

Without inflammation, there is no damage. None. It's the inflammation and accompanying oxidative stress (or vice versa) that *causes* the damage.
 
ALT level 570 after 7 days of Tylenol, 4g daly
ALT level of 60 on burn patients with already high ALT, after several weeks of anavar, albeit low dose.

Think about that for a bit.
 
He was also blowing things out of proportion regarding doses... Spurfy specifically said he had run Anavar with blood work for over a year. He also said he ran low dose blasts of 20-30mgs a day, and 5mg throughout the rest of the year. This is not some crazy massive or irresponsible dose like what Destroyer seems to be implying is what is being championed here.

Also, I don't know that a bunch of people are looking to get on the Var all year train. If someone wants to and is also willing to do the blood work he did then I don't see it as a problem and could be an excellent learning experience. We already know that 10mg a day is fine for children for up to 5 years without causing liver damage... I don't see why 5mg a day would be an issue for an healthy adult.



Seems maybe there could be a little point of confusion here for most with the wording.

I would assume that Oxandralone has some toxicity, but not enough to harm a functional liver... just enough to make it work harder to clear the compound? Wouldn't the mild toxicity in this case be the catalyst, or "the running" from the heart analogy you used in this case. IE the added stress that makes it work harder. Not necessarily damaging it but still toxic enough to simply make it work a little harder?

Exactly my point here. Anything gets toxic with too high of a dose. Just dont know what the dosage is personally but I wouldn't feel comfortable using it at 300 mg and drink alcohol every week.
 
ALT level 570 after 7 days of Tylenol, 4g daly
ALT level of 60 on burn patients with already high ALT, after several weeks of anavar, albeit low dose.

Think about that for a bit.

Exactly.

Acetaminophen causes liver damage because its intermediate metabolites generate highly reactive oxygen species (ROS, "free radicals") that have to be quenched with glutathione. Once glutiathione stores are exhausted, liver cell death begins to occur, which is the cause of the elevated enzymes in chronic and/or high-dose acetaminophen use.
 
No liver toxicity even at 80 mg a day reported in a published study in humans. Can you read?

80 mg yes, people run drol at 150 and again it's stronger than var without starting a discussion again that's my take. It's definitely more toxic.. is there a limit though? Can you say 300 mg isn't toxic ? 8
 
Exactly.

Acetaminophen causes liver damage because its intermediate metabolites generate highly reactive oxygen species (ROS, "free radicals") that have to be quenched with glutathione. Once glutiathione stores are exhausted, liver cell death begins to occur, which is the cause of the elevated enzymes in chronic and/or high-dose acetaminophen use.
Beat me to it! J/K you're speaking Chinese but I doubt you just pulled that out of your ass lol
 
80 mg yes, people run drol at 150 and again it's stronger than var without starting a discussion again that's my take. It's definitely more toxic.. is there a limit though? Can you say 300 mg isn't toxic ? 8

No, but no one should be using 300 mg anyway. OX is established as "safe" at 80 mg/day, this is why I never recommend anyone go higher than this.

Still, even in massive overdosage, oxandrolone produced only changes in electrolytes, not liver damage. These electrolyte changes were due to oxandrolone's kidney-specific metabolism. There has never been a single published case of liver damage from oxandrolone in over 30 years of widespread medical use.
 
It's frustrating to try and explain complex biochemistry to the layperson, but I still try.
Well this "layperson" has read and observed enough to where what you're saying makes sense, at least the parts I understand......which is most. And it is very hard for me to trust anyone's word because of the amount of **** put out my forum lemmings, the media, previous bosses. lol. So take that as a compliment my friend
 
Edit
 
Well this "layperson" has read and observed enough to where what you're saying makes sense, at least the parts I understand......which is most. And it is very hard for me to trust anyone's word because of the amount of **** put out my forum lemmings, the media, previous bosses. lol. So take that as a compliment my friend

Thank you.

I don't discuss things I'm not an expert in and I don't make any claims that I'm not willing to back up either with published data or an explanation of proposed mechanism.

You'll never catch me discussing economics, philosophy, art, literature, football, music theory, home improvement, or men's fashion. I'm not an expert in these areas, so I just listen and try to learn.
 
Exactly my point here. Anything gets toxic with too high of a dose. Just dont know what the dosage is personally but I wouldn't feel comfortable using it at 300 mg and drink alcohol every week.

80 mg yes, people run drol at 150 and again it's stronger than var without starting a discussion again that's my take. It's definitely more toxic.. is there a limit though? Can you say 300 mg isn't toxic ? 8

Not sure that this massive of a dose part is relevant, I don't remember anyone in here is suggesting anything like 300mg. RickyBlobby said others on PM had run things that high but I don't even think anyone else here entertained the thought. I would definitely not try that.

Me personally, I am fine with the medical studies not showing real damage with the uses that have been reported. When my doctor who is an internal medicine specialist brushes off elevated levels like no big deal, and explained all the little ways they can be elevated I get the idea it is not considered a big deal unless consistently high. Then it becomes something they want to look into. Now he has actually posted up some legitimate studies that prove his stance regarding actual damage and not just elevated enzymes even moreso, and that is enough for me to give it a shot.

I take Himilayan Liver52 daily regardless of being on a cycle so I am not worried about any issues trying the cycling protocol.

I might even give the 5mg a day thing a try. I have blood work coming up in a few months. I am already bumping Var for a quick 8 week blast to try out his var blasting protocol, and might go to 5mg a day thereafter for a month and then go get bloods just to see what is going on. If all is well I will entertain continuing it. If markers are in an alarming state then obviously not.

If I decide to experiment with the 5mg a day thing after then I will come back in here and report what my bloods look like. If they are in normal ranges then I will likely extend it to see what happens with further administration.
 
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