Liver damage from oral AAS greatly exggerated
- Thread starter RickyBlobby
- Start date
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
I don't believe bloodwork is an accurate indicator of liver damage either. Elevated enzymes to not equal damage. I like the analogy stated earlier "just because your heart rate is high doesn't mean your heart is being damaged". Liver enzymes, as far as I can tell are roughly equivalent.
Your heart rate increases due to increased load and the bodies' need for more blood. Liver enzymes increase due to increased load in the same way.
Just because there is an increased response does not mean damage is being done.
Personally I think the way you feel is just as important, if not more important than how high your liver enzymes. When your body is suffering it lets you know.
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
Clinical studies have proven anavar to be safe, even for children, for over a year straight and up to 5 years. No question about it. To put that into better perspective we are talking about 52-260 WEEKS STRAIGHT.
Now if I come on here and post a topic titled "Anavar cycle- how many weeks should I run it" the general concensus would be 4 to 6 weeks. Anyone recommending 10-12 weeks would be immediately flamed.....It aint right lol
Now if I come on here and post a topic titled "Anavar cycle- how many weeks should I run it" the general concensus would be 4 to 6 weeks. Anyone recommending 10-12 weeks would be immediately flamed.....It aint right lol
Nac
Well-known member
Dude, jesus christ. Context?
Therapeutic doses are generally much smaller than bber, even taking ugl purity into account.
Plus, how can you even compare a kid with severe burns to a brah wanting te gainz? Treating severe burns, or aidz, or cancer will involve accepting other "lower tier" risks for the greater good of the patients health.
Should bberz accept those "lower tier" risks for vanity reasons?
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
Mike Arnold is an AAS guru. His consensus is a dbol cycle up to 12 weeks at BB doses is perfectly fine if you have no preexisting conditions. I am going to regard his opinion over that of anyone on this forum unless they can prove otherwise. And I believe if there were proof it would have presented itself by now.
And a kid with 3rd degree burns over 45% of his body probably is much more sensitive to toxins than a healthy adult.
Spurfy
Active member
This.
When your liver is suffering, you will know it. You will feel like garbage all the time.
Spurfy
Active member
The sweet spot for DBol is 15 mg/day, given in divided doses -- this is the point of maximum anabolic potential with minimal risk. That dose can theoretically be used indefinitely.
Nac
Well-known member
Nac
Well-known member
Sure, but Id bet his recommendation comes with caveats. Cos taking dbol at "bber" doses for 12 weeks has wider impacts than just te liver. Like BP for one.
To me it sounds a little like "running tren for 20 weeks is fine if..."
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
This was a typical Arnold cycle as per many references
: And I don't believe he ever came "off", just lowered dosages for a period and went back to this. There is evidence that he did Dianabol for years straight. No liver failure that I've heard of.
week/ Primobolan/ Deca-Durabolin/ Dianabol
1 600mg / week/ 0/ 60 mg / day
2 600mg / week/ 0/ 60 mg / day
3 600mg / week/ 0/ 60 mg / day
4 700mg / week/ 0/ 60 mg / day
5 700mg / week/ 0/ 70 mg / day
6 800mg / week 400mg / week 80mg / day
7 800mg / week 400mg / week 80mg / day
8 800mg / week 400mg / week 80mg / day
9 800mg / week 400mg / week 80mg / day
10 800mg / week 400mg / week 100 mg / day
11 800mg / week 400mg / week 100 mg / day
12 800mg / week 400mg / week 100 mg / day
13 800mg / week 400mg / week 100 mg / day
14 800mg / week 400mg / week 100 mg / day
15 700mg / week 300mg / week 100 mg / day
16 700mg / week 300mg / week 100 mg / day
17 700mg / week 300mg / week 80mg / day
18 700mg / week 200mg / week 80mg / day
19 600mg / week 200mg / week 60 mg / day
20 600mg / week 200mg / week 60 mg / day
: And I don't believe he ever came "off", just lowered dosages for a period and went back to this. There is evidence that he did Dianabol for years straight. No liver failure that I've heard of.
week/ Primobolan/ Deca-Durabolin/ Dianabol
1 600mg / week/ 0/ 60 mg / day
2 600mg / week/ 0/ 60 mg / day
3 600mg / week/ 0/ 60 mg / day
4 700mg / week/ 0/ 60 mg / day
5 700mg / week/ 0/ 70 mg / day
6 800mg / week 400mg / week 80mg / day
7 800mg / week 400mg / week 80mg / day
8 800mg / week 400mg / week 80mg / day
9 800mg / week 400mg / week 80mg / day
10 800mg / week 400mg / week 100 mg / day
11 800mg / week 400mg / week 100 mg / day
12 800mg / week 400mg / week 100 mg / day
13 800mg / week 400mg / week 100 mg / day
14 800mg / week 400mg / week 100 mg / day
15 700mg / week 300mg / week 100 mg / day
16 700mg / week 300mg / week 100 mg / day
17 700mg / week 300mg / week 80mg / day
18 700mg / week 200mg / week 80mg / day
19 600mg / week 200mg / week 60 mg / day
20 600mg / week 200mg / week 60 mg / day
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
And for what its worth I'm not telling people to take orals for years on end, because you are shortening your life every cycle you do, believe it or not.
What I'm trying to get at is, you should me way more concerned with keeping your lipids and other cardiovascular system related markers in check than worrying about your liver. Although you certainly should be doing your best to reduce liver toxicity as well. However you will certainly die from heart disease before you do from liver failure when messing with ANY AAS.
What I'm trying to get at is, you should me way more concerned with keeping your lipids and other cardiovascular system related markers in check than worrying about your liver. Although you certainly should be doing your best to reduce liver toxicity as well. However you will certainly die from heart disease before you do from liver failure when messing with ANY AAS.
MrKleen73
Legend
Just like crap, tired, no appetite, urine gets dark, feel weaker, like you are sick or maybe even hung over. Poop tends to get pale from the bile ducts being clogged.
Well in that respect, the initial post PA states that the real danger is the cardiovascular system, and not the liver. He also said 30-50mg so anything over that would be considered out of the range he deemed safe. I think for the average user that is pretty much on the money. SOme much higher, and some much lower. Either way though, why push things so hard you don't feel well for a hobby.
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
Nac
Well-known member
Aye for sure. My concern is lurkers reading comments out of context that appear absolute.
Yes. But again, risks are relative and not all AAS are equal. Id rather run var for 12 weeks than dbol, and Id rather run test indefinitely.
MrKleen73
Legend
Yeah, I get that but at what point do we stop catering to lurkers and have the advanced conversations we need to have as people with more knowledge. My responsibility is to put out honest information and opinions, it is not to cater to those who do not have enough of an understanding to be messing with things in the first place. That irresponsible person who is doing that is not my responsibility even if he looked at what I said and decided "Hey I like that idea." It is his responsibility to go research and see if what is being said makes sense or not.
If you are not an experienced AAS user this entire thread is not for you... Read it if you want but you don't have the experience to know when things go wrong. If you are an excessive person like those who would take what this says as a Whoohoo let's do it. Then you are going to lean toward excess regardless of what I or anyone else says.
Information is information, influence is influence, but each person is responsible for their own decisions. THey will read what they want to hear out of this stuff and act accordingly. I just can't change me or withhold things just because someone else might be a few tiers down from me in knowledge and experience levels.
Sorry I am big on self accountability, which means nothing anyone chooses to do is my fault, it is their decision.
Spurfy
Active member
I pretty much blast and cruise on Var year-round. Blast at 20-30 mg/day (which is anabolically equivalent to ~840-1260 mg test per week) for 8 weeks and cruise at 5 mg/day (which is anabolically equivalent to ~210 mg test per week). I also run torem continuously so my lipids always look great and my T stays over 850. Keeps me lean, hard, vascular, young looking (var decreases visible signs of aging due to its effect on type I/III collagen synthesis), strong, and feeling good. Liver values always in-range, and no side-effects to speak of. Var really should not be a controlled substance, it should be prescription-only. It's incredibly safe.
But that's me, I'm a lone wolf...
People always confuse weight gain during a cycle with muscle gains, and how much "muscle" they "lost" in PCT. Most of the gains from traditional AAS are water. You're not gaining 20 lbs of muscle on a 12 week cycle, I don't care what you're taking. By contrast, *all* of the weight gain with Var is muscle, and most users experience simultaneous fat loss. This can make it appear as if Var is much weaker, but really it's just morons who don't know how to interpret data. Var, by its very unique nature, is a powerful recomp drug.
Chados
Well-known member
Oh god..yes you are reading from from legit site but what did I just tell you about androgenic vs anabolic ratings? What did I just tell you about ratios being false in human use? Cardarine is a perfect example of a study that's false and you can read it on the same site. They made the study on rats for 2 years with a lifespan of max 3 and had them an absurd dosage. Only problem is that cancer is a natural disease and can happen to anyone no matter how good your diet, training and overall lifestyle is.
The ratio of halotestin is also absurd according to studies.. yet not not single person gain any size from it. It's not as simple as you wanna put it.
Cgkone
Well-known member
Anabolically equivalent?
How's this anabolic calculator work?
Chados
Well-known member
Exactly. I mean there are pills for a simple headache that's very toxic and probably way more toxic than aas that you can use for 50 years but if you exceed the dosage you're dead. Trt dosage at say 200 mg test can't be compared with 2g of test that some guys do for muscle building. Medicine and body building shouldn't be compared and it's not a question that anavar is safer than anadrol and probably 20000 times better as medicine.
Renew1
Legend
It's one of my favorites.
Chados
Well-known member
By never trying anything else and read something over the internet
2kvette
Active member
It's possible because its so low in androgenicity. But I think what was more likely is they didn't measure it correctly. The studies I saw in children didn't specify whether they did ELISA testing or HPLC, it just said the appropriate analysis was used correctly, so scouts honor on that I guess. The ELISA, which I think they used by mistake, will not differentiate the oxandrolone from the testosterone, and will just report the sum of the two together as the total testosterone.
Nac
Well-known member
Ive seen something similiar repeatedly reported with deca too, true?
FRITZBLITZZ
Member
There are a few things that need to be clarified in this post.
The liver can take a unimaginable amount of abuse without being "damaged" yes you can have elevated enzymes without being even in the the same ballpark of liver damage. Just look at typical alcoholics drink about 1/2 gallon of vodka everyday and they can have a healthy functioning liver after as little as 4 months off the sauce. To clarify, liver damage is when the toxins entering the liver cause damage to the cells inside the liver...but wait this is common, liver damage is when those damaged cells or areas of the liver are replaced with scare tissue. This scare tissue can not be healed and is what is refereed to as liver damage. So it is actually the compound that is introduced that has more of a chance of causing liver damage. IE if you injected chlorine or fluoride into the bloodstream then these toxins would cause scaring known as liver damage.
On the 180* other side of the coin. Even though I truly believe you can put an enormous amount of stress on the liver without causing any permanent harm or damage, I believe that your bodies ability to build new muscle, repair muscle, and overall grow from the result of a strenuous workout is at it's most efficient when your whole body is in a healthy state. IGF1, IGF2, and more are all produced in the liver and I am a firm believer that a healthy body is able to build and regenerate muscle far better because it is able to direct all it's resources to the growing muscle rather than having to attend to and fix 9 other problems along with the muscle regeneration. That is why I always run higher than necessary liver+, kidney+, Heart+, lipid+ just because it costs a small amount more but your body needs all the help it can get to make sure you get your gains.
Spurfy
Active member
Wobmarvel
Well-known member
I'm just coming to the end of 4 weeks of sd now and for the past week my body has been telling my to wise the f**k up. I think heart is probably effected more than liver in most cases. Rich piana was getting regular blood work done and he was fine. Right up to the point where he had a heart attack.
2kvette
Active member
Well he actually went into V. Tach. He was known to abuse cocaine and he had admitted himself on his youtube videos that he had an adderall problem. So adderall problem plus that white powder the police allegedly found (probably cocaine) coupled with his athletically enlarged heart, and his manner of death. There is no doubt he had a ventricular arrhythmia. This is like the most classic case of V. Tach ever, especially with the risk factors. I can say for certain that anabolic steroids played no direct role in the cause of his death. Though HGH use over the years certainly did.
Wobmarvel
Well-known member
I'm more annoyed that there was no autopsy report. I guess the powers that be realised that the revelation that 30% of his muscle was pmma would have tarnished his legacy. In the same way that the white powder was clearly preworkout that he liked to snort. His gf said so so it must be true.
Georgiepecker
Active member
He lived off of announcing he had taken steroids so I doubt they cared to say....that he took steroids
Cgkone
Well-known member
Well that's not how this works chick.
This is a discussion form.
I don't need the same degree as you to discuss things.
What actually proves that is we are on the exact same anabolic forum .
Your PhD didn't stop us from showing up to the same forum.
How about the same way your must of had to prove a theory to earn your holy all powerful PHD.
That same way prove that anavar is the end all steroid.
justhere4comm
Banned
Not to derail: heh: I'm here for the gains... but what's your PhD in? Asking for a friend. Ok, it's me. I'm asking.
justhere4comm
Banned
Bro, wait a second. I thought having my M.Ed. was the minimum requirement to get in here... I want my fee back.
Y'all paid to get in right?... right?
Jebrook
Well-known member
Lol. I’m had to take the GED 3 timez and eventually just cheated. I’m also the moderator for this thread. Fees are due monthly.
Spurfy
Active member
Pharmacology and toxicology.
Chados
Well-known member
There's not many people who knows every medicine in and out just because you have a PhD. Are you licensed to prescribe medicine? Do I trust you or the doctor? You can say that the most anabolic is the best muscle builder yet androgenic compounds has been proven the far superior and I've used both to accept thats the case. Serious question, why do you say an anabolic compound is better as a muscle builder? I'm not talking about sides now cause we all know anabolic will be better here. Just for pure musclegrowth?
Spurfy
Active member
You're a mosquito, and a dumb one at that. Tissue building is the *definition* of anabolic. The androgenic components of an AAS are responsible solely for the side effects -- good and bad. That's why Proviron, a *pure androgen*, had *no anabolic activity* and causes ZERO muscle growth even at huge doses. Same as Masteron. Neither of these drugs really have any anabolic activity at all, but they do have uses outside of muscle building. As was stated before, they can increase motor unit recruitment via acting on the CNS providing an immediate strength boost. However, after the drug clears, this strength goes away unless an *anabolic* compound is used to compliment the ability to push heavier weight with increased net protein synthesis.
I'm going to come right out and say this: You know pretty much nothing about AAS. Really.
MrKleen73
Legend
There was definitely an autopsy report, there are a few videos dissecting it completely. A few sports doctors and endos weighed in on the subject.
Well that is most definitely applicable for the topic of this thread.
As far as Anavar goes, I can only say that my gains were better on 8 weeks 75mg of Var a day than they were on a 12 week cycle going starting at 600 and moving to -800 mgs of test when both targeted at aggressive recomp AKA gaining weight while getting lean. I had a better look and gained the same amount of weight on the anavar. For someone who is concerned with the aesthetic it is the bees knees! I absolutely love the stuff. Definitely my favorite oral. I would still run DBol if focusing on strength gains. You gotta have some good level androgenic action to really drive the neural / CNS based strength gains.
Just curious while running the var year long how often did you run your blood work initially to assess how this was going, and how often do you do so now?
Spurfy
Active member
Every 8 weeks initially, now twice yearly -- once while on a blast and 8 weeks into cruise.
MrKleen73
Legend
Thanks!
Chados
Well-known member
And you didn't tell me anything. Good try, I didn't ask wether anabolic benefits were useful at all, they both are but you're just talking around the subject. Everyone with any experience knows you don't build **** with anavar compared to deca tren etc. Now instead of trying to insult me to seem important let's try explain how you're the only one saying this? Because you supposedly have a PhD and nobody else does? If you were breaking some news here in pretty sure guys that's been talked about in the thread like rich pianna would be talking about var and not drol.
solidsnake
Well-known member
And ironically Arnie has emergency open heart surgery today, you’ve advocated the devil guys!! ?*
..... 
..... 
Spurfy
Active member
Buzz buzz buzz.
MrKleen73
Legend
Chados, sorry this is wrong, he is not the only person saying this. We have argued the point with Var and TBol as well saying it was far superior for size than var. You are always dismissive over Var and it's ability to generate size in every thread it is mentioned... How you can come in here and say he is the only one saying it leads me to believe you just dismiss things you hear, or read that don't fit into your specific narrative. MG for MG no way 350mg nandrolone a week beats 350mg a week, or 50mg / day Anavar in a head to head lean mass competition. I have ran both and var wins... plus less intrusive sides with Var than a 19Nor.
He is also correct in the fact that the anabolic effect is what drives muscle ANABOLISM, and the androgenic effects the sexual traits, as well as having a synergistic effect on the CNS when it comes to force production. They are also responsible for the sides. These statements are widely accepted and you went completely against them. That is why you are being called out for your comments.
As an example, the ENTIRE PURPOSE for SARM development and studies was to create a compound that would elicit the anabolic reaction of steroids... AKA Anabolism to stimulate muscle growth and fight muscle wasting in ill people. At the same time specifically trying to minimize the androgenic properties in order to minimize side effects.
In the end though, none of this matters. Use what ever it is that is a personal preference, that goes for everyone. THis discussion isn't really even about ratios, it is about Patrick Arnold's statements regarding the over-hyping of the health risks from the liver, and his assessment that the real area of concern is various forms of CVD. In this instance Spurfy has some insight.
Spurfy, your knowledge seems spot on but damn that was a harsh response. :hammer::hammer::hammer::hammer::hammer:
MrKleen73
Legend
And ironically Arnie has emergency open heart surgery today, you’ve advocated the devil guys!! ��*
This is about Patrick Arnold though, not Arnie. Arnie has had heart problems before too. As long as his liver didn't fail then it goes along perfectly with this discussion. The claim was that they are not as bad for the liver, but the heart was definitely at risk.
Chados
Well-known member
So you're saying that there are more people claiming var being superior to tren than nice versa? Let's put what you say in to perspective mg to mg. You have to take maybe 60 mg of var to notice any difference and same with tbol. How much drol, dbol, winstrol do you need? 25mg? Sorry i don't dismiss your knowledge here but we all know that injectibles are used differently than orals and that there are stronger orals. The fact that were looking at some ratios that's already proven to not add up because they were used on rats or because we don't know the difference between androgenic and anabolic benefits by a company that used an absurd dose of cardarine that was clearly proven to not be a clean study. It's quite obvious in the world of aas if you've used these compounds and you've listened to professional bodybuilders that this study is also false. Halotestin would be the strongest muscle builder known to man if this was true
solidsnake
Well-known member
I know that. Relax, I was trying to put a bit of humor into the thread to try and cool down the bitching that’s flared up again
MrKleen73
Legend
Did I say tren man... stop trying to pull other things in to make your point. It is seriously frustrating and misleading to others reading. Tren has a ridiculously high androgenic and anabolic effect... What the heck does that have to do with Var, or Var being compared to nandrolone which is what you were saying in the first place. Tren is far from mild.
Not much competes with Tren and definitely not anything that would ever be considered mild on your system like Var. As far as winstrol goes, it has almost exactly the same effects regarding sexual characteristics, growth, and what not as Var, just has worse sides like being horrible for your connective tissue... quite the opposite of Var. Sorry but unless female 25mg of Winny isn't going to show a lot of growth, and NOTHING over what you would get from Var.
As far as androgenic/anabolic ratios, they are certainly not perfect, and are not based in measuring skeletal muscle so there is definitely room for adjusting but the reality is that most do not run Anavar as high as they do testosterone or nandrolone when bulking nor do they often eat in as big of a surplus while on it. If they did they would be surprised at the gains. Have you ever run Var @ 100 a day to compare with a 700mg test or nandrolone a week run while focusing on mass gains specifically? Now 700mg tren a week forget about it, yeah that would beat Var for sure, but that isn't the same thing as comparing it to nandrolone.
Chados
Well-known member
Thats what he said not what you said so yes were talking about tren and any other compound. I have never ran var at 700/week and not tren either. I did however run var at 350 and tren at 300/week and I can clearly see a difference. I'm not sure what you're talking to me about honestly. Anyways ,alright you said it now too.
MrKleen73
Legend
I know that. Relax, I was trying to put a bit of humor into the thread to try and cool down the bitching that’s flared up again
Relax? I am completely relaxed. Not worked up in the slightest. It just wasn't obvious humor so I responded as if you might have missed the fact that it was Patrick Arnold and not Arnold. I think someone else made that assumption earlier in the thread. Literally just being courteous and responding with information I thought you may have missed.
You took my response completely wrong...
Chados and I may not agree with one another on many things but we keep things civil. Its just a discussion...