The FDA issues a warning against the use of SARMs

Nac said:
Where was the FDA when our ancestors had to contend with poisonous berries?

Hell, we wouldnt be here now if there had been a regulatory body preventing Adam from eating that bloody apple.

Im with booneman and bseacow. Lets go full tit to the other extreme. Doing so means Ill have to swallow a certain degree of fatalism, where like our ancestors, if any relatives dun goof and harm themselves I have no Big Brother Watchbody to blame or go crying to.
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100% on board that we need to regulate wild berries.

More man-made global warming should take care of any wild anything that could pose a threat.
 
HIT4ME said:
I actually agree with most 9f your logic in this thread as your reasoning is pretty dead on. As others have said, I am not against this decision, more against the idea that the FDA is there to protect us...which you get a pass on because you are in Australia.

But the history of the FDA is basically that it's predecessor was founded to benefit the American meat manufacturers. They were canning rotten beef and sending it to the gov't because we weren't at war and they figured it would never be used, so they could sell what they would normally throw away. Then war broke out in Europe, the meat was sent and more people died from our rotten beef then from the war itself. This, of course, killed one of our largest exports.

There was nothing to "fix"...the meat companies knew what they did. So they lobbied Roosevelt to pass regulations and form a "watchdog" to renew confidence in our meat industry abroad. It was all a marketing scheme. And it worked. And it grew and remains a marketing scheme to this day.

As far as oxy - sure, we had decades of data, but Perdue made a huge marketing push to make doctors believe that oxy was not addictive. The FDA looks the other way as long as enough money is being made that they can extract fees through lawsuits and continue their marketing watchdog status.

And in all those decades of data, there isn't ANY evidence that opiates even have any safety nor efficacy past 12 weeks. None. Yet the FDA never did a thing to ensure prescriptions never lasted past 12 weeks. Making the argument that 12+ weeks of opioid use is safe and effective is so difficult that rather than even attempt to raise such a defense, Pfizer recently settled with the city if Chicago for $2.3B - that's a B - because they can't prove anything past short term acute use.
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The FDA isn't above reproach, nor is it infallible. The FDA regulates opioids, but it doesn't prescribe them. If a Doc is prescribing opioids long term, any deleterious effects that occur from negligence should be thrown there way.

Two papers address this well: Invalid Link Removed and Invalid Link Removed

There are sections within these texts on corrupt physicians, difficulties on regulating prescriptions etc.
 
Jiigzz said:
The FDA isn't above reproach, nor is it infallible. The FDA regulates opioids, but it doesn't prescribe them. If a Doc is prescribing opioids long term, any deleterious effects that occur from negligence should be thrown there way.

Two papers address this well: Invalid Link Removed and Invalid Link Removed

There are sections within these texts on corrupt physicians, difficulties on regulating prescriptions etc.
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Those are great papers actually. And the opioid epidemic we face in the US is certainly a team effort. Drug companies marketed the heck out of cheap opioids, the FDA looked the other way, doctors believed sales reps- yes sales reps - without question. I mean, there is plenty of fault in marketing an opioid as being non-addictive, but that fault doesn't mean doctors don't play a role. These doctors are supposed to be experts and to not research or question a sales rep or pharmaceutical company's marketing is a foolish and negligent mistake. Add in hospitals trying to push for higher discharge ratings from patients by forcing doctors to treat pain quickly and insurance company politics - it is a real comedy of errors.

In my hometown my doctor that I had in high school lost his license I'm 2000 and did jail time. He prescribed 1/3 of all the oxy in the entire state. What he was doing wouldn't even raise a red flag today. It would be normal medicine.

My grandmother's doctor put my grandmother in the hospital because she put her on oxy, allowed it to escalate, switched her to fentanyl to reduce the oxy and allowed that to escalate until my grandmother became non responsive.

The doctor would have done nothing to avoid the escalation and I had to step in and argue for months to start using agmatine alongside the opioids. They took forever to listen and then after a couple months on it the nurses told my mom and aunt how they had to bring it up at the next nurses meeting because it was actually working. My mom thought this would make me hapoy, but it struck.me as pretty shameful. I didn't discover anything. DRUGGIES know about this interaction and there are reams of research about it - and the doctors couldn't even be bothered to do some research beyond what a pharma company was telling them. To make it worse, when discussing the drugs my grandmother is on with the doctor and bringing up CYP interaction she thought I was talking about receptor sites (revealing a lack of even extremely basic understanding of her profession).

But doctors went to medical school...so they know way more than we possibly could.
 
HIT4ME said:
I actually agree with most 9f your logic in this thread as your reasoning is pretty dead on. As others have said, I am not against this decision, more against the idea that the FDA is there to protect us...which you get a pass on because you are in Australia.

But the history of the FDA is basically that it's predecessor was founded to benefit the American meat manufacturers. They were canning rotten beef and sending it to the gov't because we weren't at war and they figured it would never be used, so they could sell what they would normally throw away. Then war broke out in Europe, the meat was sent and more people died from our rotten beef then from the war itself. This, of course, killed one of our largest exports.

There was nothing to "fix"...the meat companies knew what they did. So they lobbied Roosevelt to pass regulations and form a "watchdog" to renew confidence in our meat industry abroad. It was all a marketing scheme. And it worked. And it grew and remains a marketing scheme to this day.

As far as oxy - sure, we had decades of data, but Perdue made a huge marketing push to make doctors believe that oxy was not addictive. The FDA looks the other way as long as enough money is being made that they can extract fees through lawsuits and continue their marketing watchdog status.

And in all those decades of data, there isn't ANY evidence that opiates even have any safety nor efficacy past 12 weeks. None. Yet the FDA never did a thing to ensure prescriptions never lasted past 12 weeks. Making the argument that 12+ weeks of opioid use is safe and effective is so difficult that rather than even attempt to raise such a defense, Pfizer recently settled with the city if Chicago for $2.3B - that's a B - because they can't prove anything past short term acute use.
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Any doctor that believed the chemical oxycodone was going to be NON-addictive when they have even a basic knowledge of hydrocodone was f**king idiot and using the promotional material as a total cop out. If we did completely away with the FDA everyone would bitch about the drug companies being completely unchecked. It would be a matter of time before a "committee" or watchdog group would be formed and in no time we would have FDA V2.0.

If you think the FDA gives a flying f**k about you taking sarms you funny. They simply are saying stop selling unreleased research drugs as supplements. THIS IS NOT an example of overreach in any way guys. I have hated 90% of what they have done to supplements over the years and I have seen many items taken for no good reason since I started this in 1998, this is NOT one of those times.
 
Jiigzz said:
How so?

(Most) Drugs have years of drug trials before being sold for human consumption, and then have post release trials so we know most of the risks, down to ones that affect only a small few.

Then medications must be prescribed by a Doc.

Where is the relevance to SARMs being sold as supplements?
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I refuse to sell SARMs as dietary supps not because I think they're too dangerous for public use (I don't think they are...at all, although I DO think there should be an age restriction of 18+ or possibly even 21+), but because of potential lawsuits from unscrupulous, extortionist industry scum.

I wish the Gov. would just mind its own business and abandon its draconian, failing ways like many other countries have done with superior results, such as Amsterdam, England, etc. Amsterdam has completely decriminalized all drugs and yet they have a lower rate of abuse/addiction than the U.S.. How many people in the U.S.--often kids--have had their lives completely destroyed because of drug related felony charges? A LOT! Many of these people would have ended up just fine without the government's criminal intervention, yet now they can't even get a job because of a drug they did as a teenager. That's messed up. The whole steroid thing is even worse. Steroid users aren't causing any social problems, nor hindering the country's growth and development, yet even these people are having their lives flushed down the toilet...just because they wanted to be bigger and stronger. What a crime!

SARMs are even more ridiculous. It won't be long before SARMs are made controlled substances...and then we will start seeing good people racking up felony charges over this stupid bull****.

Aside from the whole legality aspect of it, the Gov. has NO RIGHT to tell us how to live. Our freedoms are being trampled upon daily...and not only are many ignorant of this, but there are even U.S. citizens who SUPPORT this type of slavery! They actually WANT the Gov. to determine what we can and cannot do with our own bodies. I don't know about you, but I don't want to relinquish my independence and self-sovereignty to another power...and I sure as hell don't want someone else telling me how to live.

I am all for government funded education. In fact, we need more of it. If the Gov. would spend more time and money on educating the public rather than penalizing them, the problem would largely rectify itself. Most people don't WANT to hurt themselves...or take risks outside of their comfort zone, but it shouldn't be the Gov. that determines what someone else's comfort level is. It should be their job to educate the people and then allow them to make decisions for themselves.

Now, I do agree that if someone is selling a drug that can have very serious consequences if abused, they should be listed on the label, or a pamphlet included with the product explaining the risks. It's not that the supp companies today don't want to do this, but rather, they are afraid of self-incrimination...because they know the Gov. is one step behind them just waiting to bring them down. If everything was legalized, I bet we would start to see a whole lot more companies supplying detailed information regarding a product's potential risks.

The people should be the ones who determine the degree to which the supplement industry is regulated...not the government, so if the people who buy these products don't want more regulation/scheduling, it shouldn't be happening. The government is supposed to be for the people, not the people for the government. I only rarely do I encounter someone in this industry who actually WANTS more regulation/scheduling, yet the Gov. doesn't care what the people want. It only cares about itself. Anyone with even a modicum of knowledge on the subject knows that all this regulation doesn't have a damn thing to do with "protecting" people, but with Big Pharma wanting to shutdown anyone and anything that threatens its profits...and they are constantly paying off lawmakers to ensure this happens. It has nothing to do with protecting people. It's all about money...which includes the whole"war on drugs" bull****. That experiment failed long ago...and the Gov. knows it, but the reason it continues is because it was NEVER about removing drugs from the streets of America. It was about making money! It has been this way from day one and will continue to be this way into the future. The supp industry is no different. They just want control so they can profit.
 
Definitely showing where the industry is going in the future. The need for the products to become stronger will always breed more unscrupulous and dangerous products. There will always be companies that keep products safe.
 
Mike Arnold said:
I refuse to sell SARMs as dietary supps not because I think they're too dangerous for public use (I don't think they are...at all, although I DO think there should be an age restriction of 18+ or possibly even 21+), but because of potential lawsuits from unscrupulous, extortionist industry scum.

I wish the Gov. would just mind its own business and abandon its draconian, failing ways like many other countries have done with superior results, such as Amsterdam, England, etc. Amsterdam has completely decriminalized all drugs and yet they have a lower rate of abuse/addiction than the U.S.. How many people in the U.S.--often kids--have had their lives completely destroyed because of drug related felony charges? A LOT! Many of these people would have ended up just fine without the government's criminal intervention, yet now they can't even get a job because of a drug they did as a teenager. That's messed up. The whole steroid thing is even worse. Steroid users aren't causing any social problems, nor hindering the country's growth and development, yet even these people are having their lives flushed down the toilet...just because they wanted to be bigger and stronger. What a crime!

SARMs are even more ridiculous. It won't be long before SARMs are made controlled substances...and then we will start seeing good people racking up felony charges over this stupid bull****.

Aside from the whole legality aspect of it, the Gov. has NO RIGHT to tell us how to live. Our freedoms are being trampled upon daily...and not only are many ignorant of this, but there are even U.S. citizens who SUPPORT this type of slavery! They actually WANT the Gov. to determine what we can and cannot do with our own bodies. I don't know about you, but I don't want to relinquish my independence and self-sovereignty to another power...and I sure as hell don't want someone else telling me how to live.

I am all for government funded education. In fact, we need more of it. If the Gov. would spend more time and money on educating the public rather than penalizing them, the problem would largely rectify itself. Most people don't WANT to hurt themselves...or take risks outside of their comfort zone, but it shouldn't be the Gov. that determines what someone else's comfort level is. It should be their job to educate the people and then allow them to make decisions for themselves.

Now, I do agree that if someone is selling a drug that can have very serious consequences if abused, they should be listed on the label, or a pamphlet included with the product explaining the risks. It's not that the supp companies today don't want to do this, but rather, they are afraid of self-incrimination...because they know the Gov. is one step behind them just waiting to bring them down. If everything was legalized, I bet we would start to see a whole lot more companies supplying detailed information regarding a product's potential risks.

The people should be the ones who determine the degree to which the supplement industry is regulated...not the government, so if the people who buy these products don't want more regulation/scheduling, it shouldn't be happening. The government is supposed to be for the people, not the people for the government. I only rarely do I encounter someone in this industry who actually WANTS more regulation/scheduling, yet the Gov. doesn't care what the people want. It only cares about itself. Anyone with even a modicum of knowledge on the subject knows that all this regulation doesn't have a damn thing to do with "protecting" people, but with Big Pharma wanting to shutdown anyone and anything that threatens its profits...and they are constantly paying off lawmakers to ensure this happens. It has nothing to do with protecting people. It's all about money...which includes the whole"war on drugs" bull****. That experiment failed long ago...and the Gov. knows it, but the reason it continues is because it was NEVER about removing drugs from the streets of America. It was about making money! It has been this way from day one and will continue to be this way into the future. The supp industry is no different. They just want control so they can profit.
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The only thing I would point out here - our gov't already spends more MONEY on education than any other government in the world. Money isn't the problem. WE are the problem.

Part of the issue with this is, with SARMS for instance, we don't exactly KNOW the potential risks. Most drugs kind of have this situation to some degree, but with all the chemicals out there - you can either force everything to list every possible and unknown risk (which makes warnings useless, since they will be on everything and thus ignored - look at the CA carcinogen warnings) - or you don't label unknowns...either way doesn't educate anyone.
 
The bottom line is that SARM's are illegal. They were never legal. They never should have been sold.
 
HIT4ME said:
Those are great papers actually. And the opioid epidemic we face in the US is certainly a team effort. Drug companies marketed the heck out of cheap opioids, the FDA looked the other way, doctors believed sales reps- yes sales reps - without question. I mean, there is plenty of fault in marketing an opioid as being non-addictive, but that fault doesn't mean doctors don't play a role. These doctors are supposed to be experts and to not research or question a sales rep or pharmaceutical company's marketing is a foolish and negligent mistake. Add in hospitals trying to push for higher discharge ratings from patients by forcing doctors to treat pain quickly and insurance company politics - it is a real comedy of errors.

In my hometown my doctor that I had in high school lost his license I'm 2000 and did jail time. He prescribed 1/3 of all the oxy in the entire state. What he was doing wouldn't even raise a red flag today. It would be normal medicine.

My grandmother's doctor put my grandmother in the hospital because she put her on oxy, allowed it to escalate, switched her to fentanyl to reduce the oxy and allowed that to escalate until my grandmother became non responsive.

The doctor would have done nothing to avoid the escalation and I had to step in and argue for months to start using agmatine alongside the opioids. They took forever to listen and then after a couple months on it the nurses told my mom and aunt how they had to bring it up at the next nurses meeting because it was actually working. My mom thought this would make me hapoy, but it struck.me as pretty shameful. I didn't discover anything. DRUGGIES know about this interaction and there are reams of research about it - and the doctors couldn't even be bothered to do some research beyond what a pharma company was telling them. To make it worse, when discussing the drugs my grandmother is on with the doctor and bringing up CYP interaction she thought I was talking about receptor sites (revealing a lack of even extremely basic understanding of her profession).

But doctors went to medical school...so they know way more than we possibly could.
Click to expand...

Good stuff. I’m beginning to realize more and more that credentials don’t mean a Doctor is knowledgeable, they mean that he was willing to put forth the work it requires to achieve that career. How many of us can study for and ace a test and then forget everything we learned? Dumb people sometimes have great work ethic and then obtain a license to practice medicine.
 
HIT4ME said:
The only thing I would point out here - our gov't already spends more MONEY on education than any other government in the world. Money isn't the problem. WE are the problem.

Part of the issue with this is, with SARMS for instance, we don't exactly KNOW the potential risks. Most drugs kind of have this situation to some degree, but with all the chemicals out there - you can either force everything to list every possible and unknown risk (which makes warnings useless, since they will be on everything and thus ignored - look at the CA carcinogen warnings) - or you don't label unknowns...either way doesn't educate anyone.
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Much of the government funded education on drugs is purposely biased and inaccurate...which is why so many kids end up doing their own research...and often have a difficult time separating the wheat from the chaff. If the Gov. would just be honest (remember the whole "steroids don't increase physical performance" bull**** they pushed down all the school kids throats for decades...LOL) they would actually trust what the Gov. is teaching them. However, they have learned through experience and self-education that much of what they are told is NOT true. So, it doesn't really matter how much money is being spent if it is being wasted.

I don't think we are the problem at all. We should have the RIGHT to put whatever we want into our own bodies...PERIOD. The Gov. shouldn't have any right to tell us what is best for us...what we should or should not consume, etc. That is called freedom, the opposite of which is called slavery. If someone wants to kill themselves with meth, as stupid as it is, it should be THEIR choice. The Gov. was never supposed to our masters or slave owners.
 
Eric Mar said:
The bottom line is that SARM's are illegal. They were never legal. They never should have been sold.
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That's obvious. The point is that they shouldn't be illegal...and neither should anything else. These things are only illegal because people in the Gov. and Big Pharma benefit financially from it. It doesn't have a damn thing to do with protecting us...and it is this blatant hypocrisy that makes so many people angry. The Gov. will allow Big Pharma to release drugs that KILL people...and cause a multitude of other harmful side effects (many of which are very serious), but if someone wants to use a SARM (which isn't even on the same playing field in terms of risk), they are threatened with criminal action. It's pure bull**** and 100% hypocrisy.
 
Scott4bama15 said:
Good stuff. I’m beginning to realize more and more that credentials don’t mean a Doctor is knowledgeable, they mean that he was willing to put forth the work it requires to achieve that career. How many of us can study for and ace a test and then forget everything we learned? Dumb people sometimes have great work ethic and then obtain a license to practice medicine.
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Maybe.
There are also a lot of "bros" that think their n=1 experience is much more valid that anything that a person who has spent years actually getting an education can say.
 
Okay, suppose anyone here themselves spent a bit of time researching and developing a compound (or anything for that matter) that did something.

Would you be altruistic and just allow the compound or invention to be public domain for everyone to freely use or profit from themselves?

Lol if you answer "yes" then youre full of sh1t. Cos whats the first question the Dragons in the Den ask of promising entrepreneurs?

"Is your product patented?"

Ok, yes, there are 2 senses of "free" here, "free" as in doesnt cost to obtain, and "free" as in not illegal to use. Obviously we can have the latter but not the former (sugar isnt free but we are free to use it).

But stuff like SARMs are not like sugar, cos sugar isnt a patented compound. People are profiting from the distribution/use of SARMs when the developer should have first option at a monopoly.

So again, to my original point, if you disagree with this Im calling you out as full of sh1t.
 
Mike Arnold said:
That's obvious. The point is that they shouldn't be illegal...and neither should anything else. These things are only illegal because people in the Gov. and Big Pharma benefit financially from it. It doesn't have a damn thing to do with protecting us...and it is this blatant hypocrisy that makes so many people angry. The Gov. will allow Big Pharma to release drugs that KILL people...and cause a multitude of other harmful side effects (many of which are very serious), but if someone wants to use a SARM (which isn't even on the same playing field in terms of risk), they are threatened with criminal action. It's pure bull**** and 100% hypocrisy.
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Theres a potential irony in your position.

Lets run what youre advocating to its logical conclusion.

In this Libertarian world, sourcing quality raws from overseas is easy-peasy-Japanesey (or Chinesey, most likely).

In the present legal restrictive climate, sourcing good raws is one of the biggest deterrants to Joe Bloggs who'd like to make his own cheaper version of Somatozine.

In the ideal Libertarian world, where everything is freely available (and cheaply) how are guys like yourself going to protect their products/investments and secure a decent customer base?
 
Mike Arnold said:
That's obvious. The point is that they shouldn't be illegal...and neither should anything else. These things are only illegal because people in the Gov. and Big Pharma benefit financially from it. It doesn't have a damn thing to do with protecting us...and it is this blatant hypocrisy that makes so many people angry. The Gov. will allow Big Pharma to release drugs that KILL people...and cause a multitude of other harmful side effects (many of which are very serious), but if someone wants to use a SARM (which isn't even on the same playing field in terms of risk), they are threatened with criminal action. It's pure bull**** and 100% hypocrisy.
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Amen!

The flu shot is a prime example of that. It has been shown to be no more effective than placebo and it is actually counter productive as it lowers your immune system due to the heavy metal content and other toxins. Not to mention the cumulative neurological risks and the fact that it is proven to substantially increase risk of alzheimer's. That's all fine though because it is a HUGE money maker! The worst part is that I am basically required to get it every year as a healthcare worker. It is absolutely disgusting....
 
Ricky10 said:
Amen!

The flu shot is a prime example of that. It has been shown to be no more effective than placebo and it is actually counter productive as it lowers your immune system due to the heavy metal content and other toxins. Not to mention the cumulative neurological risks and the fact that it is proven to substantially increase risk of alzheimer's. That's all fine though because it is a HUGE money maker! The worst part is that I am basically required to get it every year as a healthcare worker. It is absolutely disgusting....
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Every time you use the word proven, it makes me cringe. Anyone that uses it in the context of science has no clue what they are talking about and should be ignored.

Would you be so kind as to share your research on a flu vaccination programme vs. Placebo causing alzeimers and proving heavy metal contamination?
 
Scott4bama15 said:
Dumb people sometimes have great work ethic and then obtain a license to practice medicine.
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Do me a favor and become one of the 3% of people accepted to medical school each year, then complete a residency, then come back here and let's talk about who's "intelligent." Are these broad generalizations useful? Doctors are certainly partly to blame for the opioid crisis, but this hardly the first time that pharmaceutical companies manipulated data, used deceptive marketing tactics, lying to the public as well as to the medical community. Lookup the Janssen scandal from like 1992 through the early 2000s where they were illegally marketing drugs to kids and seniors, while hiding data on side effects.

Sure - there are plenty of doctors who are conflicted doing conflicted research for pharma, but there are many more who consume and make medical decisions based on that flawed data. And its not always easy to tell the difference in many cases, since drug studies are funded by ... pharma. :thinking: And no, not every trial every conducted has flawed data.

The main focus of blame for these increasingly common issues with pharmaceuticals, in my mind, should be pharmaceutical companies and their lobbyists. We need better regulations in place to present conflicts of interests in pharmaceutical research, as well as increased funding and regulatory power for the NIH involving these trials, and stricter auditing and monitoring for human trial data. We also need regulations to control the industry -> government revolving door into FDA and USDA in particular.

Ricky10 said:
The flu shot is a prime example of that. It has been shown to be no more effective than placebo and it is actually counter productive as it lowers your immune system due to the heavy metal content and other toxins.
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Nothing you said is true. Since you are making these claims, please provide credible sources, as I've done here. Its effectiveness isn't always fantastic, I agree, but it is completely incorrect to say it is less effective than a placebo (1, 3). They do a good job in predicting strains about 70% of the time, and in good years the reduction of flu risk can be as high as 60%.

Thimerosal is a form of ethyl mercury, which is much more rapidly excreted compared with methyl mercury, and is completely harmless to adults in the quantities found in a flu shot.

And if anything, the flu shot boosts immunity (2, 4).

Mr Arnold said:
The point is that they shouldn't be illegal...and neither should anything else. These things are only illegal because people in the Gov. and Big Pharma benefit financially from it. It doesn't have a damn thing to do with protecting us...and it is this blatant hypocrisy that makes so many people angry.
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This is just happens when you take libertarianism to extremes. I'm no fan of big pharma's anti-regulatory practices, and think we need tighter regulations. But we don't fund the NIH well enough for them to do all this research. So who's gonna do it? And has no clinical trial conducted ever yielded a clinically useful medicine? These arguments frankly scare me. More people will die in your hyper-libertarian dystopia.

- Fred Nietzsche

References

1. Govaert, T.M., Thijs, C.T.M.C.N., Masurel, N., Sprenger, M.J.W., Dinant, G.J. and Knottnerus, J.A., 1994. The efficacy of influenza vaccination in elderly individuals: a randomized double-blind placebo-controlled trial. JAMA, 272(21), pp.1661-1665.

2. Pleguezuelos, O., Robinson, S., Stoloff, G.A. and Caparrós-Wanderley, W., 2012. Synthetic Influenza vaccine (FLU-v) stimulates cell mediated immunity in a double-blind, randomised, placebo-controlled Phase I trial. Vaccine, 30(31), pp.4655-4660.

3. Osterholm, M.T., Kelley, N.S., Sommer, A. and Belongia, E.A., 2012. Efficacy and effectiveness of influenza vaccines: a systematic review and meta-analysis. The Lancet infectious diseases, 12(1), pp.36-44.

4. Cox, R.J., Brokstad, K.A. and Ogra, P.L., 2004. Influenza virus: immunity and vaccination strategies. Comparison of the immune response to inactivated and live, attenuated influenza vaccines. Scandinavian journal of immunology, 59(1), pp.1-15.
 
Scott4bama15 said:
Good stuff. I’m beginning to realize more and more that credentials don’t mean a Doctor is knowledgeable, they mean that he was willing to put forth the work it requires to achieve that career. How many of us can study for and ace a test and then forget everything we learned? Dumb people sometimes have great work ethic and then obtain a license to practice medicine.
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Whut LOL.

Try get in to medical school and then say that.

Doctors are infallible just like everyone else, so they make mistakes, may purposely deceive for financial gain or over prescribe because they just want the person to go away, but that doesn't make them dumb.
 
Ricky10 said:
Not to mention the cumulative neurological risks and the fact that it is proven to substantially increase risk of alzheimer's. That's all fine though because it is a HUGE money maker!
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Going around making these blanket claims is irresponsible. There is no data directly linking flu vaccines to Alzheimer's disease. If you're referring to mercury itself and Alzheimer's ... it is a huge leap to take what the data says on this topic and then apply it to the doses of ethyl mercury contained in annual flu shots. There IS limited evidence of increased mercury levels in Alzheimer's, but this isn't from the flu shot.

Inorganic mercury exposure is most commonly from air and water contamination, and thus soil, as well as industrial/workplace exposures. Every study looking at mercury levels in dementia used assays for methyl (inorganic) mercury, not the ethyl (organic) mercury found in vaccines. Most environmental exposure is from methyl mercury. This effect varies across countries, with some correlation to environmental mercury levels. India or China for example: both countries are well below the USA in terms of flu vaccination rates, have very high rates of dementia, as well as high levels of environmental methyl mercury exposure.

Also remember that thimerosal was removed from childhood vaccines years ago, as the blood brain barrier isn't fully developed in neonates and young children.

The flu can kill people who are very sick, elderly, immunocompromised, septic, neonates... I find it disgusting that you find it disgusting, to be perfectly frank.

How environmental mercury exposure works:

Invalid Link Removed
 
TheNietzsche said:
Going around making these blanket claims is irresponsible. There is no data directly linking flu vaccines to Alzheimer's disease. If you're referring to mercury itself and Alzheimer's ... it is a huge leap to take what the data says on this topic and then apply it to the doses of ethyl mercury contained in annual flu shots. There IS limited evidence of increased mercury levels in Alzheimer's, but this isn't from the flu shot.

Inorganic mercury exposure is most commonly from air and water contamination, and thus soil, as well as industrial/workplace exposures. Every study looking at mercury levels in dementia used assays for methyl (inorganic) mercury, not the ethyl (organic) mercury found in vaccines. Most environmental exposure is from methyl mercury. This effect varies across countries, with some correlation to environmental mercury levels. India or China for example: both countries are well below the USA in terms of flu vaccination rates, have very high rates of dementia, as well as high levels of environmental methyl mercury exposure.

Also remember that thimerosal was removed from childhood vaccines years ago, as the blood brain barrier isn't fully developed in neonates and young children.

The flu can kill people who are very sick, elderly, immunocompromised, septic, neonates... I find it disgusting that you find it disgusting, to be perfectly frank.

How environmental mercury exposure works:

Invalid Link Removed
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You're pooping on his conspiracy bro
 
It would be impossible for me to post all sources explaining the detriments of flu vaccinations.

Here are a few though....have a party!

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Invalid Link Removed
 
Jiigzz said:
Every time you use the word proven, it makes me cringe. Anyone that uses it in the context of science has no clue what they are talking about and should be ignored.

Would you be so kind as to share your research on a flu vaccination programme vs. Placebo causing alzeimers and proving heavy metal contamination?
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I think the esteemed Jenny McCarthy has done some very regarded work in this area.
 
JVee63 said:
I think the esteemed Jenny McCarthy has done some very regarded work in this area.
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I have no idea who that is. More than anything, I want to see the research
 
TheNietzsche "Do me a favor and become one of the 3% of people accepted to medical school each year, then complete a residency, then come back here and let's talk about who's "intelligent.""

Just remember, there are doctor's that graduate with A's and there are doctor's that graduate with C's. Which one is working on you.
Hell, I went to med school, but would you take advise from me?
 
Ricky10 said:
It would be impossible for me to post all sources explaining the detriments of flu vaccinations.

Here are a few though....have a party!

Invalid Link Removed

Invalid Link Removed
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Those aren't sources, and your second link cites the first, which isn't credible. Dr. David Williams appears to be a chiropractor. None of the credible sources they cite, which isn't many, support your previous claim about Alzheimer's. You've done nothing to counter the basic science I previously posted here.
 
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DemntedCowboy said:
Just remember, there are doctor's that graduate with A's and there are doctor's that graduate with C's. Which one is working on you.
Hell, I went to med school, but would you take advise from me?
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Fair enough. ;) But I'd still assert that anyone who can get into medical school (at least, in the USA - I have no familiarity with other systems) aren't dumb.
 
TheNietzsche said:
Fair enough. ;) But I'd still assert that anyone who can get into medical school (at least, in the USA - I have no familiarity with other systems) aren't dumb.
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Well I wouldnt say I am the smartest guy. I went to med school, and still joined the Army Infantry and got 2 Purple Hearts, which means I was to dumb to get out the way twice. Lol
 
Jiigzz said:
Whut LOL.

Try get in to medical school and then say that.

Doctors are infallible just like everyone else, so they make mistakes, may purposely deceive for financial gain or over prescribe because they just want the person to go away, but that doesn't make them dumb.
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Dumb isn’t the right word and yes that was a very broad generalization. I was thinking of a doctor near my hometown who was recently caught prescribing opioids for reasons unrelated to legitimate pain. I guess irresponsible is the better word.
 
TheNietzsche said:
Those aren't sources, and your second link cites the first, which isn't credible. Dr. David Williams appears to be a chiropractor. None of the credible sources they cite, which isn't many, support your previous claim about Alzheimer's. You've done nothing to counter the basic science I previously posted here.
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I just picked those links randomly to demonstrate what I already know to be true from working at a hospital and speaking to people who extensively study vaccinations, not just the flu shot. Not really looking for a debate here about something I already know. Sorry if you don't agree with it.

My chiropractor was the best thing that ever happened to me! I used to have severe back pain and could not even work. He got me back into work in a matter of weeks and I have not had any back issues for the last 10 years. What do you have against chiropractors?
 
Ricky10 said:
I just picked those links randomly to demonstrate what I already know to be true from working at a hospital and speaking to people who extensively study vaccinations, not just the flu shot. Not really looking for a debate here about something I already know. Sorry if you don't agree with it.

My chiropractor was the best thing that ever happened to me! I used to have severe back pain and could not even work. He got me back into work in a matter of weeks and I have not had any back issues for the last 10 years. What do you have against chiropractors?
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Doctors told me I would never walk again, they told me I would go from a cane, to a walker, to a wheelchair, to a casket. I used my own knowledge from what I learned in Med school, and I haven't used my cane in over 2 years, walk just fine, and feel the best I ever have and almost in the same shape I was in while on active duty again. Just proves you can do what your mind tells you, you can do. And I have used SARMS.
 
DemntedCowboy said:
Doctors told me I would never walk again, they told me I would go from a cane, to a walker, to a wheelchair, to a casket. I used my own knowledge from what I learned in Med school, and I haven't used my cane in over 2 years, walk just fine, and feel the best I ever have and almost in the same shape I was in while on active duty again. Just proves you can do what your mind tells you, you can do. And I have used SARMS.
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Yes, I have read your story before. Truly remarkable and I have much respect for you and your determination!
 
Mike Arnold said:
That's obvious. The point is that they shouldn't be illegal...and neither should anything else. These things are only illegal because people in the Gov. and Big Pharma benefit financially from it. It doesn't have a damn thing to do with protecting us...and it is this blatant hypocrisy that makes so many people angry. The Gov. will allow Big Pharma to release drugs that KILL people...and cause a multitude of other harmful side effects (many of which are very serious), but if someone wants to use a SARM (which isn't even on the same playing field in terms of risk), they are threatened with criminal action. It's pure bull**** and 100% hypocrisy.
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Ostarine should not be available to any 16 yo kid. 6 weeks of thattanked my test levels to 52...no PH had ever dropped mine below 250(even MIA) ~ Luckily i had plenty of pct to help get it back up but your definitely dont need a 16 buying it at the local store just because its got a cool label
 
mw1 said:
Ostarine should not be available to any 16 yo kid. 6 weeks of thattanked my test levels to 52...no PH had ever dropped mine below 250(even MIA) ~ Luckily i had plenty of pct to help get it back up but your definitely dont need a 16 buying it at the local store just because its got a cool label
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I completely agree with you
 
Scott4bama15 said:
Good stuff. I’m beginning to realize more and more that credentials don’t mean a Doctor is knowledgeable, they mean that he was willing to put forth the work it requires to achieve that career. How many of us can study for and ace a test and then forget everything we learned? Dumb people sometimes have great work ethic and then obtain a license to practice medicine.
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Doctors may or may not be "stupid". Some doctors have particular strengths that allow them to get through academics without understanding. More to the point, in practice a doctor is really more like a car mechanic. When your car breaks you take it to the mechanic who diagnosis and prescribes - but these mechanics don't often have the level of knowledge required to engineer a vehicle from scratch. They are following instructions.

To make it worse, society in general has a low standard for philosophy, reasoning, logic. Doctors may have great memories and kniw what to prescribe, and recall what they are told - but have no ability to reason and/or question what they are told. You can easily get through medical school based on the doctors I've dealt with, and never have to show that you cam question and reason.

Another example with my grandmother is that, alongside oxycodone they are prescribing LARGE amounts of tylenol...often 3 grams a day and this has been going on every day for years. They don't seem to understand that the Tylenol potentiates the oxycodone through CYP interactions (the same enzyme is used to metabolize both), and they had NO clue as to how NAC may be wise to run alongside the constant Tylenol dose. I had to argue with the doctor about this and they still don't get it. I am not saying it is proven, but if she winds up in the ER with Tylenol induced liver failure it is proven enough that they will administer it. The risk is low and potential benefits high.


Mike Arnold said:
Much of the government funded education on drugs is purposely biased and inaccurate...which is why so many kids end up doing their own research...and often have a difficult time separating the wheat from the chaff. If the Gov. would just be honest (remember the whole "steroids don't increase physical performance" bull**** they pushed down all the school kids throats for decades...LOL) they would actually trust what the Gov. is teaching them. However, they have learned through experience and self-education that much of what they are told is NOT true. So, it doesn't really matter how much money is being spent if it is being wasted.

I don't think we are the problem at all. We should have the RIGHT to put whatever we want into our own bodies...PERIOD. The Gov. shouldn't have any right to tell us what is best for us...what we should or should not consume, etc. That is called freedom, the opposite of which is called slavery. If someone wants to kill themselves with meth, as stupid as it is, it should be THEIR choice. The Gov. was never supposed to our masters or slave owners.
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You and I are kind of parallel in thoughts but not 100% identical. You cannot legislate against stupidity. Law or not, people will do stupid things.

Separating the wheat from the chaff, as you say, is difficult as it is - even for educated people. Yes, there is a lot of bad info and potentially intentional misinformation - but true education isn't about subject matter, it is about reasoning and gaining a skill set that allows you to learn and question ideas.

Keep in mind, the flip side is that there is a TON of misinformation out there about drugs that the general public created on their own too. Pot has no side effects is a great example - or even medical marijuana. The fact is that the benefits for most people of marijuana are non-existent or overblown. It's recreational. And that is fine - politics aside - people should make their own decisions and education should be the push.

And what I meant when I said WE are the problem is that, we need leaders RIGHT now. We need to be the educated leaders and help others learn. Everyone always says, "They will do it". There is no they.

Mike Arnold said:
That's obvious. The point is that they shouldn't be illegal...and neither should anything else. These things are only illegal because people in the Gov. and Big Pharma benefit financially from it. It doesn't have a damn thing to do with protecting us...and it is this blatant hypocrisy that makes so many people angry. The Gov. will allow Big Pharma to release drugs that KILL people...and cause a multitude of other harmful side effects (many of which are very serious), but if someone wants to use a SARM (which isn't even on the same playing field in terms of risk), they are threatened with criminal action. It's pure bull**** and 100% hypocrisy.
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There is also the argument that we should make things illegal when they pose a great cost to society. Using drugs can land people in the ER, cause medical issues, increase healthcare costs, increase criminal activity, reduce work productivity, etc. The issue is, how can you use this argument when alcohol and cigarettes are legal? Those two drugs have caused more damage to society than all of the other drugs combined.

Although the fact that they are legal and harsher drugs illegal may indicate that laws do protect the sheep....

Jiigzz said:
Every time you use the word proven, it makes me cringe. Anyone that uses it in the context of science has no clue what they are talking about and should be ignored.

Would you be so kind as to share your research on a flu vaccination programme vs. Placebo causing alzeimers and proving heavy metal contamination?
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This reminds me of Feynman talking about how you have to be OK with having doubt to be a good scientist. Nothing is 100% certain, science just attempts to get closer.

Jiigzz said:
Whut LOL.

Try get in to medical school and then say that.

Doctors are infallible just like everyone else, so they make mistakes, may purposely deceive for financial gain or over prescribe because they just want the person to go away, but that doesn't make them dumb.
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As I said above...not saying they are dumb, but many lack critical thinking skills. They diagnose and precribe based on accepted strategies, often given to them by pharma companies and enforced by the fear of litigation (they have to be able to point the finger at someone if something goes wrong). The idea of a doctor who prescribes drugs NOT knowing what a Cytochrome P enzyme is bows my mind and I have encountered it with my grandmother's primary care doctor and 2 ER doctors treating her. Sure, they are smart people, but they obviously have significant limitations in their understanding. They probably did have exposure to the concepts on school, remembered the answers for the test and never really understood the info.

I did this in school all the time. I made it through college, literally, without ever having read a book. Not in elementary, junior high, high school or college. The thing is, once you understood the framework that the teachers were looking for, you could make stuff up that hit those key points. For instance, most English classes can be passed by memorizing 3-4 archetypes. Not saying I got As, but I was a solid B student with no effort. Was I smart or stupid? Maybe a little of both.

I also think the idea that someone else is an expert gives us comfort. We don't have to learn or think.

The fact that so many people jump to the idea that doctors are in the top 3% because getting in is hard is an example of this. Like they don't have to think anymore and have nothing to prove because they have a degree. Smart people don't need degrees to prove anything.

DemntedCowboy said:
Doctors told me I would never walk again, they told me I would go from a cane, to a walker, to a wheelchair, to a casket. I used my own knowledge from what I learned in Med school, and I haven't used my cane in over 2 years, walk just fine, and feel the best I ever have and almost in the same shape I was in while on active duty again. Just proves you can do what your mind tells you, you can do. And I have used SARMS.
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This is amazing and inspiring. The thing to keep in mind here - 9/10 times those doctors would have been right because people would have thought, "They are doctors. They went to school. They are experts. They know."

If you believe effort is futile because of this, you won't try...why put in effort if it won't do anything?

And of course, then the doctors observe that people won't put in the effort and that they will fail - and this reinforces their belief that it is helpless.

I imagine young doctors out of school often hope to help people, try to get people to change, people don't do the work, so the doctor eventually stops fighting the tide and gives up. After this all that is left to do is prescribe pills because that is the only thing they really have control over...
 
Ricky10 said:
Not really looking for a debate here about something I already know. Sorry if you don't agree with it.
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But you see, you don't know it. The smartest people in the field don't even know it. And I'm not trying to have a debate, I'm simply reporting the scientific data as a counter to your claims that are not backed in science. Science and facts are different from opinions and anecdotes. I really was hoping you'd address the science, as I did extensively.

Unfortunately, you don't know what you don't know. If you want to have some kind of pissing contest over "healthcare" experience and qualifications, I'll share my CV with you.

Ricky10 said:
What do you have against chiropractors?
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This isn't about chiropractors... This is about what qualifies as science, what qualifies as a reference. Why would a chiropractor be qualified to comment on the immune response in flu vaccines, or Alzheimer's disease risk, or the toxicokinetics of mercury? Sorry, but they aren't scientists. And that particular chiropractor seems like a quack, as another poster noted earlier.
 
Ricky10 said:
It would be impossible for me to post all sources explaining the detriments of flu vaccinations.

Here are a few though....have a party!

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Invalid Link Removed
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These are not sources, they are links to random websites.

Cmon
 
TheNietzsche said:
But you see, you don't know it. The smartest people in the field don't even know it. And I'm not trying to have a debate, I'm simply reporting the scientific data as a counter to your claims that are not backed in science. Science and facts are different from opinions and anecdotes. I really was hoping you'd address the science, as I did extensively.

Unfortunately, you don't know what you don't know. If you want to have some kind of pissing contest over "healthcare" experience and qualifications, I'll share my CV with you.


This isn't about chiropractors... This is about what qualifies as science, what qualifies as a reference. Why would a chiropractor be qualified to comment on the immune response in flu vaccines, or Alzheimer's disease risk, or the toxicokinetics of mercury? Sorry, but they aren't scientists. And that particular chiropractor seems like a quack, as another poster noted earlier.
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I specifically said I don't want to have a pissing contest. Nor do I care to hear about your credentials or who you deem smart enough or worthy of making statements about the propaganda surrounding flu vaccines. People are either for it, or against it. Our positions are quite clear.
 
Ricky10 said:
I specifically said I don't want to have a pissing contest. Nor do I care to hear about your credentials or who you deem smart enough or worthy of making statements about the propaganda surrounding flu vaccines. People are either for it, or against it. Our positions are quite clear.
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Except one view is putting humanity back 100 years ;)
 
Ricky10 said:
Nor do I care to hear about your credentials ...
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I mean...you mentioned your credentials before I mentioned mine... it didn't come from thin air.

Ricky10 said:
... I already know to be true from working at a hospital and speaking to people who extensively study vaccinations ...
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Ah well. Rationality loses again. I certainly wasn't trying to convince you of anything, but those who may stumble on this post in the future.
 
TheNietzsche said:
I mean...you mentioned your credentials before I mentioned mine... it didn't come from thin air.



Ah well. Rationality loses again. I certainly wasn't trying to convince you of anything, but those who may stumble on this post in the future.
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I don't consider saying that I work in a hospital as stating my credentials, but whatever...

Just be sure to get your flu shot....a yearly dose of toxins is always key to optimal health no matter how you look at it;)
 
Ricky10 said:
I don't consider saying that I work in a hospital as stating my credentials, but whatever...

Just be sure to get your flu shot....a yearly dose of toxins is always key to optimal health no matter how you look at it;)
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For goodness sakes there is no end to the nonsense. You provide no actual arguments or data for anything you say, while I wasted time compiling research. I'm not even arguing whether people should get flu shots, you made that up on your own. My statements on vaccines were balanced and, importantly, supported with evidence. I responded to your claims such as flu shots cause Alzheimer's, and flu shots lower the immune system, and all the other things you said that are demonstrably just not true.

I've presented science my friend. You are the one presenting propaganda.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to attempt to push a large rock up a steep hill.
 
TheNietzsche said:
For goodness sakes there is no end to the nonsense. You provide no actual arguments or data for anything you say, while I wasted time compiling research. I'm not even arguing whether people should get flu shots, you made that up on your own. My statements on vaccines were balanced and, importantly, supported with evidence. I responded to your claims such as flu shots cause Alzheimer's, and flu shots lower the immune system, and all the other things you said that are demonstrably just not true.

I've presented science my friend. You are the one presenting propaganda.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to attempt to push a large rock up a steep hill.
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I wouldn't mind him too much, his evidence is what he hears and the Google searches he makes and does not extend beyond that. The people who he says "study vaccinations" probably also rely on the same websites.

For someone in healthcare, you'd expect him to know what research actually is.
 
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