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The Opitome of a Cycle Fail (Guidance Would be Appreciated)

D4RK5IDE

New member
Long story short:
- 20mg of ostarine ED for 4 weeks with an AI
- Stopped a few days after noticing testicular shrinkage
- Ordered clomid a week later but it got delivered to the wrong box just a few days ago apparently (fml).
- 3 weeks post cycle now and my testicals are smaller than ever. I'm lethargic, can't get fully hard, and sperm count is dramatically lower.

I'm about to get my hands on some 20mg nolvadex tablets. How should I approach this? 20mg ED for the first two weeks and then 20mg EOD for the next two?
 
Just run a normal PCT. 20/20/10/10. You should be fine after that.
 
Your best bet is to get on HCG for 4-6 weeks to give your balls some time to recover(your leydig cells have shrunk, only HCG will bring them back quickly, while also boosting you endogenous test levels, and it will also make you more fertile!). Bolus yourself with 3000 units IM followed by 500units subq every 3 days for 4-6 weeks, or for two weeks following your testes returning to normal size(whichever comes first). Nolva and clomid won't help you a lot at this point. You need to ramp up your hpt axis, and HCG is the best way to do so.
 
natpwr79 said:
Your best bet is to get on HCG for 4-6 weeks to give your balls some time to recover(your leydig cells have shrunk, only HCG will bring them back quickly, while also boosting you endogenous test levels, and it will also make you more fertile!). Bolus yourself with 3000 units IM followed by 500units subq every 3 days for 4-6 weeks, or for two weeks following your testes returning to normal size(whichever comes first). Nolva and clomid won't help you a lot at this point. You need to ramp up your hpt axis, and HCG is the best way to do so.
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HCG doesn't "ramp up your hpt axis".... it simply increases activity in the testes.
 
D4RK5IDE said:
Long story short:
- 20mg of ostarine ED for 4 weeks with an AI
- Stopped a few days after noticing testicular shrinkage
- Ordered clomid a week later but it got delivered to the wrong box just a few days ago apparently (fml).
- 3 weeks post cycle now and my testicals are smaller than ever. I'm lethargic, can't get fully hard, and sperm count is dramatically lower.

I'm about to get my hands on some 20mg nolvadex tablets. How should I approach this? 20mg ED for the first two weeks and then 20mg EOD for the next two?
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so you noticed testicular atrophy after only a few days on Ostarine? odd.....

what AI were you taking?

** EDIT: and how do you know you have a low sperm count? do you have bloodwork/labwork? **
 
CatSnake said:
HCG doesn't "ramp up your hpt axis".... it simply increases activity in the testes.
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That's right, and nolva and other serms increase Leutinizing hormone release by the posterior pituitary gland to increase LH production to high range of normal. LH needs to be much higher than normal ranges in order to stimulate testicular growth. When you testicles are atrophied, they will barely respond the LH signals at normal levels. So, in this regard, the hpt axis is not functioning. The diagnosis would be primary hypogonadism. When a person comes off cycle, the pituitary will pick up its end of the hpt axis and produce LH, but it can only do so much. It takes the testicles a LONG time to recoup on their own. To get testicles back to normal, thus returning hpt axis to normal, HCG is the most effective route. Serms do little for the testicles, which is his problem
 
CatSnake said:
so you noticed testicular atrophy after only a few days on Ostarine? odd.....

what AI were you taking?
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AI would make no difference with his issue. If he was crying himself to sleep and having breast growth/tenderness AI would matter.
 
natpwr79 said:
AI would make no difference with his issue. If he was crying himself to sleep and having breast growth/tenderness AI would matter.
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no, it does matter.

if he crashed his E2 on the cycle, it would matter quite a bit.

especially since Ostarine doesn't aromatize at all.
 
Doesn't explain reduced sperm count and testicular atrophy! Those two combined prove leydig cell reduction = shutdown. Have to look at the clinical presentation
 
natpwr79 said:
That's right, and nolva and other serms increase Leutinizing hormone release by the posterior pituitary gland to increase LH production to high range of normal. LH needs to be much higher than normal ranges in order to stimulate testicular growth. When you testicles are atrophied, they will barely respond the LH signals at normal levels. So, in this regard, the hpt axis is not functioning. The diagnosis would be primary hypogonadism. When a person comes off cycle, the pituitary will pick up its end of the hpt axis and produce LH, but it can only do so much. It takes the testicles a LONG time to recoup on their own. To get testicles back to normal, thus returning hpt axis to normal, HCG is the most effective route. Serms do little for the testicles, which is his problem
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no.

SERMs trigger the negative feedback mechanism that cause the hypothalamus to release GnRH, which causes the pituitary to release LH/FSH, which then signal the testes to increase testosterone/sperm production.

if he takes HCG for 4-6 weeks, then the "H" and the "P" in that equation will remain out of the loop, and still likely need a SERM down the road to get things working again.

and the large bolus of HCG is likely to increase a significant amount of estrogen conversion, which is even more suppressive to the HPTA then androgens are. so he will likely need an AI to manage that, as well....
 
You are half right, but so wrong! Yes, the mechanism of action with H+P you are correct about, but again, it's the etiology of the problem that you are skipping over. His testicles are atrophied, he is having ED, and low sperm count. An AI does not cause testicular atrophy, so that's clearly not the cause. SERMs will help the H+P pick up where they are lacking, but the H+P can return to normal function on their own fairly quickly, unless you have secondary or tertiary hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. The reason for SERMs post cycle is to get the H+P cranking out a ****load of LH, to help reverse testicular atrophy, and get testosterone production back to baseline, and this is where the whole problem is. He has stopped his cycle, and has hypogonadism. So, he is atrophied because he has lost a ton of leydig cells, which produce sperm and testosterone. HCG mimics LH, signaling leydig cells to produce sperm/testosterone. Estrogen is aromatized from testosterone(not that simply, but end result), so how can a man producing just enough endogenous testosterone to feel normal again have high enough estradiol levels to cause any problems whatsoever? The answer is.........HE CAN'T! LH does not aromatize into estradiol, only T and certain other androgens do. The bolus of HCG will put his current leydig cells into overdrive giving him a bump in endogenous T levels(nowhere even close to anabolic levels), and help jump start leydig cell production in the testes. A SERM would work, had he started at high doses before stopping the androgen. D4RK5IDE, please try to to get your hands on some HCG, you are going to feel much better.
 
natpwr79 said:
You are half right, but so wrong! Yes, the mechanism of action with H+P you are correct about, but again, it's the etiology of the problem that you are skipping over. His testicles are atrophied, he is having ED, and low sperm count. An AI does not cause testicular atrophy, so that's clearly not the cause. SERMs will help the H+P pick up where they are lacking, but the H+P can return to normal function on their own fairly quickly, unless you have secondary or tertiary hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. The reason for SERMs post cycle is to get the H+P cranking out a ****load of LH, to help reverse testicular atrophy, and get testosterone production back to baseline, and this is where the whole problem is. He has stopped his cycle, and has hypogonadism. So, he is atrophied because he has lost a ton of leydig cells, which produce sperm and testosterone. HCG mimics LH, signaling leydig cells to produce sperm/testosterone. Estrogen is aromatized from testosterone(not that simply, but end result), so how can a man producing just enough endogenous testosterone to feel normal again have high enough estradiol levels to cause any problems whatsoever? The answer is.........HE CAN'T! LH does not aromatize into estradiol, only T and certain other androgens do. The bolus of HCG will put his current leydig cells into overdrive giving him a bump in endogenous T levels(nowhere even close to anabolic levels), and help jump start leydig cell production in the testes. A SERM would work, had he started at high doses before stopping the androgen. D4RK5IDE, please try to to get your hands on some HCG, you are going to feel much better.
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well, to be clear, you're arguing about information about the OP that you/I don't know.... he mentions having a low sperm count but doesn't seem to have bloodwork. curious, right?

interesting that you recommend taking HCG to mimic LH to get his testes going again, instead of simply correcting the HPTA dysfunction and getting his own LH going to correct the issue to minimize the time he's suppressed. you don't need to use high doses of SERMs to makes this work.... plenty of clinical documentation showing moderate doses work to correct issues.

anyway, you might wanna look into HCG more, because it's pretty well known that even moderate doses can causes E2 conversion, so a bolus will most certainly cause issues there.

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^T and E2 increases from HCG.

a large bolus of HCG will increase total T and E2, which are BOTH suppressive to the HPTA. all that does at this point is kick the can down the road with the hopes that you can fix the problem while being suppressed for an additional period of time....
 
You keep talking about what HCG does without regard to the person who I'm recommending it to, or the doses I am recommending. HE IS SHUTDOWN! He is not producing enough test! The 3000 unit bolus dose is to jumpstart him, followed by 500 units q3days. You are telling me that HCG produces higher T, and thusly higher estrogen conversion. YES! That's exactly what I am saying. If he is currently not producing T, he is also not producing estradiol. The bolus helps get his T back up to low end of normal by stimulating leydig production. One dose at 3000 in a hypogonadal male is not going to through his T up high enough to put his estradiol out of wack. Yes, it will suppress his hypothalamic Gonadotropic releasing hormone, but as I said before, that will bounce back on its own rather quickly without any additional intervention after the HCG is weened off, as I instructed. This isn't my first rodeo, I have a lot of personal experience and have been practicing medicine for many years(although I am not an endocrinologist). Did you know that if you use HCG at doses as low as 200units 2xweek while on cycle it will keep you from going into atrophy altogether, and without any significant increases in estradiol? It cuts your PCT down to a couple of weeks because your testes never shut down! Your hypothalamus kicks in very quickly once the HCG is out of your system, and you haven't lost any leydig cells during your cycle so your testes produce T at baseline levels almost immediately, allowing you to keep the majority of your gains. Most people don't know this because they don't fully understand how HCG, and the HPTA works. So, my recommendation does not kick the can down the road, it immediately alleviates D4RK5IDE's symptoms, and gets him back to normal without having to go through 2 months of hell after using SERMs for 4weeks. In regard to his labs, I would assume he has had his sperm checked in order to know his production is down, unless he is speaking about his volume of ejaculate.
 
The study you posted supports exactly what I have been saying. The bolus dose gives you peak production, followed by decreased estradiol with following injections. These are also daily injections of 5000units, well beyond what I have recommended.
 
natpwr79 said:
You keep talking about what HCG does without regard to the person who I'm recommending it to, or the doses I am recommending. HE IS SHUTDOWN! He is not producing enough test! The 3000 unit bolus dose is to jumpstart him, followed by 500 units q3days. You are telling me that HCG produces higher T, and thusly higher estrogen conversion. YES! That's exactly what I am saying. If he is currently not producing T, he is also not producing estradiol. The bolus helps get his T back up to low end of normal by stimulating leydig production. One dose at 3000 in a hypogonadal male is not going to through his T up high enough to put his estradiol out of wack. Yes, it will suppress his hypothalamic Gonadotropic releasing hormone, but as I said before, that will bounce back on its own rather quickly without any additional intervention after the HCG is weened off, as I instructed. This isn't my first rodeo, I have a lot of personal experience and have been practicing medicine for many years(although I am not an endocrinologist). Did you know that if you use HCG at doses as low as 200units 2xweek while on cycle it will keep you from going into atrophy altogether, and without any significant increases in estradiol? It cuts your PCT down to a couple of weeks because your testes never shut down! Your hypothalamus kicks in very quickly once the HCG is out of your system, and you haven't lost any leydig cells during your cycle so your testes produce T at baseline levels almost immediately, allowing you to keep the majority of your gains. Most people don't know this because they don't fully understand how HCG, and the HPTA works. So, my recommendation does not kick the can down the road, it immediately alleviates D4RK5IDE's symptoms, and gets him back to normal without having to go through 2 months of hell after using SERMs for 4weeks. In regard to his labs, I would assume he has had his sperm checked in order to know his production is down, unless he is speaking about his volume of ejaculate.
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LOL.... okay.

you claim to practice medicine and recommend a protocol all the while assuming the OP has bloodwork, but never actually ask for it, or ask any clarifying questions? right on....
 
I'm on here to help someone with their problem. So you(what we commonly refer to as DR Google) would recommend taking AI's and SERM's without any medical background? Hmmm, I wonder why anabolics get a bad wrap and people F themselves up on them. HCG has little to no adverse effects on males, which is why I am confident in advising him to do so at safe and appropriate doses based solely on his clinical presentation(HCG would definitely keep him in the "do no harm" side of things). Even if he were a normally functioning male, putting him on the exact same HCG regimen I am advising would only increase his T (non anabolic levels, so aromatization is of little to no concern) and sperm count. He's not my patient, but someone who is seeking knowledgeable advise. I would rather not know his labs for ethical reasons. I am not here to diagnose people, just help those who have made mistakes in their regimens because anabolic misuse(not so much abuse) is becoming all to common. It's much easier to find pharmaceutical grade HCG than pharm grade SERMs and AI's for most people(I strongly advise against using or purchasing black market drugs). I give you credit for your knowledge on the topic, but when someone has gotten themselves behind the eight ball(shutdown), everything changes, and the typical PCT rules no longer apply.
 
While your at it, look up the John crissler protocol(great resource and physician on anti-aging out of Michigan). He writes a protocol as a recommendation for millions to read based on clinical data and research, he doesn't know the labs of anyone reading his protocol/recommendations.....what fool, right! Providing information and guidance is not practicing medicine.
 
natpwr79 said:
While your at it, look up the John crissler protocol(great resource and physician on anti-aging out of Michigan). He writes a protocol as a recommendation for millions to read based on clinical data and research, he doesn't know the labs of anyone reading his protocol/recommendations.....what fool, right! Providing information and guidance is not practicing medicine.
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LOL.... again, I'm not arguing against the use of HCG on cycle or on TRT. but the OP is not in that situation.... and I'm pretty sure Dr Crisler isn't afraid of looking at someone's labs, either.

I'm curious as to where you got the information in regards to this comment:

"Did you know that if you use HCG at doses as low as 200units 2xweek while on cycle it will keep you from going into atrophy altogether, and without any significant increases in estradiol?"

I have only seen one study similar to this information, but it simply showed that 500 IU of HCG EOD increased ITT above baseline on cycle, whereas 250 IU EOD nearly maintained baseline ITT (7 % below baseline compared to 94% in the control group).

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^ I am not sure if they assessed actual testicular volume, but HCG is only mimicking the role of LH, not FSH. and it stands to reason that 200 IU 2x a week would not supersede the effects of 250 IU EOD, unless you have something clinical that proves otherwise.....

and it's well known that HCG commonly increases E2 conversion significantly on TRT or on cycle, or even by itself. the study I previously posted showed that pretty clearly.

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^another TRT site that address E2 management while on HCG exclusively.
 
natpwr79 said:
I'm on here to help someone with their problem. So you(what we commonly refer to as DR Google) would recommend taking AI's and SERM's without any medical background? .
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interesting that you made this comment..... I literally provided no recommendation this entire thread, as I still had questions I wanted clarified. You, however, are providing advice, with no proof of actually having a medical background.
 
This will be my last post on this thread. I don't have time to keep going over this. Afraid to read someone's labs...that's a ridiculous comment. There is a fine line between advising someone and providing a consultation....which is what Crisler does, for money! You don't just look at erroneous numbers and assume they are the patients actual profile, anyway, not your concern. Personal experience based on advice of an endocrinologist I went to med school with. HCG mimics LH, 200 will be just enough for the average male to keep the signal alive to the testes to prevent significant leydig cell reduction. BTW, 250IU every other day is too often, 500q3days is more appropriate, but note the dose is very similar to what your study quotes......get where I'm going here. I am not ignorant to these things, every study you are quoting lines up with what I am advising. All th
 
All that we've done at this point is create more doubt for this guy, D4RK5IDE, make your own judgement based on what you have read here.
 
Oh, and let me provide my med license # and DEA # while I'm at it, that way I can get sued by strangers for giving free advise?*♂️
 
D4RK5IDE said:
Long story short:
- 20mg of ostarine ED for 4 weeks with an AI
- Stopped a few days after noticing testicular shrinkage
- Ordered clomid a week later but it got delivered to the wrong box just a few days ago apparently (fml).
- 3 weeks post cycle now and my testicals are smaller than ever. I'm lethargic, can't get fully hard, and sperm count is dramatically lower.

I'm about to get my hands on some 20mg nolvadex tablets. How should I approach this? 20mg ED for the first two weeks and then 20mg EOD for the next two?
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D4RK5IDE, I'm starting to wonder if your ED issues aren't actually connected to low DHT, similar to the issues that guys get from stuff like Propecia.

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have you had any bloodwork yet?



.
 
Just to answer some questions:

1. No lab work has been done. Sorry if that invalidates my low sperm count claim; I based that off of the amount of ejaculate.

2. Yes, 4 weeks @20mg/day of Ostarine did this.

3. I have infrequent erections and when I get them (on purpose for the purpose of testing myself) they're comparable to what you'd get when you've been up for 24h.

Update: been just over 4 days on nolva @20mg/day and so far the effects haven't been made clear yet. Not sure if that information helps with anything bit it's at your disposal.

I need to go but I'll check back in a bit to respond to anything new. Thanks for your input.
 
Peanutbutterj said:
Did you get your balls back?
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Yes, they're back.

Because I didn't measure them before, it's kind of hard to tell if they're 100% of the size they were originally but I'm assuming they are. Oddly, I remember my left testicle being bigger than it is currently but there have been no issues since. My right testicle is back up to 100% for sure so it could be a case of not realizing one is larger than the other? I'm aware that's normal though so I'm not worried.
 
D4RK5IDE said:
Yes, they're back.

Because I didn't measure them before, it's kind of hard to tell if they're 100% of the size they were originally but I'm assuming they are. Oddly, I remember my left testicle being bigger than it is currently but there have been no issues since. My right testicle is back up to 100% for sure so it could be a case of not realizing one is larger than the other? I'm aware that's normal though so I'm not worried.
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Glad to hear man.

Be safe buddy
 
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