Titan changing his looks with MassMax XT
- Thread starter FireTitan
- Start date
HIT4ME
Well-known member
Great, does that mean I can't have these "impure" thoughts that I have about you guys?
ryane87
Well-known member
You still can, you'll just have to find the videos in a different sub-category.
Brandinooooo
Well-known member
Studhorse
Legend
very true statement. I have to make time for my family. otherwise life will get in the way. my kids kids are now getting into sports and its funny how they never have any free time. Now I think they are starting to get it. life moves on and you have to plan ahead for the whole family to get together and sometimes you just cant make it.
thorsdad31
Well-known member
Family time is always a good time
MrKleen73
Legend
Looking good and congrats on 23 Wide Grip Pull ups in a row!!!! My best ever was 27 just shortly before my elbow got so bad that I had to stop doing them completely for over a year. Not sure what it was but once it started hurting there where the biceps meets the elbow things got bad pretty quick and still haven't healed completely. I think the problem is I just rested it but never got the issue that made it hurt corrected. Now the slow increase on doing them again seems to be helping but it still hinders me.
FireTitan
Legend
Thank you guys...all of you. I welcome the ball bustin...it really does drive me forward ! Unfortunately,I had no choice but to take the day off today, we ran our butts off last night and I had so many things to take care of today I just couldn't get any time in. I did get a 4 hour nap in before coming back in tonight, and when I get off at 0600 I go straight to the fire department. There WILL be some plates moved tomorrow though...and no Im not referring to supper plates!! You guys, all of you are great and I appreciate every one of you. kjscatch..all but the inside of the bicep are done on that arm. Im waiting until I get the overall physique Im wanting so I can tie the tattoo into my left peck.
DemntedCowboy
Well-known member
Sounds just like the excuse of a Navy Man. In the Army we never sleep, never eat, we just lift and Kill. Lol
MrKleen73
Legend
Hey, you are also trying to do some growing and improving on performance, for those things to happen you need more than hard work!!! You need 4 hour naps, days off, and straight up full on days of rest sometimes. Remember the recovery is just the beginning of the goal, you want to recover then super compensation from the damage. That requires adequate rest so every day does not have to be a manic effort to get training in.
Not telling you to slow down but don't feel you need to explain why you chose to rest on a day you needed it!!!
HIT4ME
Well-known member
THANK YOU! This is the aspect people seem to misunderstand the most. The process is THREE steps - stimulate, recover, super compensate. It isn't TWO steps. Recovery and super compensation are not the same thing, they are not interchangeable, they do not happen together at the same time. Super compensation does not occur until AFTER you have recovered. I feel like all the "over training doesn't exist" people miss this entirely.
MrKleen73
Legend
This is a fact, and to be honest many who say they overtrain have never reached the intensity or volume required to actually over train. To be honest what a lot of people consider overtraining is actually the result of not fueling the body appropriately, and not resting enough. However you fix up the food and the rest and then over training becomes something that is VERY hard to do. As many people with a lot of experience will tell you. Overtraining is very uncommon, but insufficient recovery plagues many! That is why many say there is no such thing as overtraining, just under recovery!!!!
The amount of work the body can be conditioned to do with appropriate nutrition and rest is unreal.
Brandinooooo
Well-known member
I'm a prime example of over training being VERY difficult. I lift, push and pull 100lbs+ all day long at work (average of 250lb per item) and then hit the gym directly afterwards. I have never even come close to over training.
Like you said, as long as your nutrition is good, you won't over train.
FireTitan
Legend
MrKleen73 you're obviously more intelligent than I am. Thank you for always stepping in setting me straight. HIT4ME you know youre the man bro!! Brandinooooo..stay sexy my man
Brandinooooo
Well-known member
HIT4ME
Well-known member
Ugh. I can go back and forth in this forever and we won't see exactly eye to eye.
I think one issue is that there IS a distinction between overtraining and chronic overtraining. People read all about the "side effects" of over training (like chronic fatigue, sickness, etc.) And think you have to have those side effects to over train...but overtraining itself has very little in the way of physiologically negative effects until it becomes chronic.
Overtraining is exactly that, training too much. Too much is a factor or intensity, volume and frequency.
Until over training becomes chronic, the ONLY side effect will be a lack of progress.
If the process is stimulate - recover - super compensate then logically if I fulfill all three of those requirements sufficiently in workout A, then in workout B I will have improvements. If I do not see improvements in workout B there are only two possible reasons: either I did not actually stimulate a response in workout A OR I did not allow enough time for recover AND super compensation between workouts. Those are the only two possibilities.
So, if I did not stimulate a response I need to look at my training and figure out what I need to do in order to do so.
If I KNOW that I stimulated growth and still have not improved on the second day workout, the ONLY possible reason is that I am over training. This means I can over train in just 2 workouts - the frequency was too soon to allow for super compensation to occur. I am training too often in this case.
I can overtrain in a single workout too. Once I stimulate growth, any additional work will have little if any effect.
We see this with other stressors. If you stay out in the sun for too long you "overtrain" in one session and burn because the damage overcomes the body's ability to recover and super compensate. Going tanning 4-5 times a day will often lead to the same outcome as just staying out too long for one session.
And of course - intensity is a huge factor. If I go out in the sun with no shirt in the middle of August I will sustain far fewer minutes than doing the same thing in January.
Now, of course nutrition plays a factor - but for most of us calories are plentiful and our body will respond d to a threat to survival with the resources provided. If I have too little food, that will make the response slower and I will be over training more easily - but this isn't common in society.
On the flip side, I could eat enough chicken and protein shakes to start getting fat and the theory above would still apply - I could still train too hard, or too frequently, or too often.
I think you are right that overtraining isn't as common as some people think. And I may actually agree that overtraining on purpose may have a use (which people seem to like to call over reaching because they hate the implications of overtraining so much).
I also think that you can train 10-20 sets per body part and it will be a lot of work and you will not over train. But your intensity won't be that high. You can work hard or you can work long, but you can't do both.
I.e. moving boxes that weigh 100 pounds all day long is a ton of volume...and more intense than a lot of us are used to I bet - but even with that work capacity how many times can you deadlift 400 pounds until you fail? Could you do that EVERYDAY at even 1/4 of the volume? And even if you could do it - would you actually get better between bouts?
HIT4ME
Well-known member
Lol - brother stop selling yourself short. You are smart. Mrkleen is smarter, for sure, but you are pretty dang smart!
Brandinooooo
Well-known member
Yeah I agree and disagree lol. No need to argue about it though.
But your right. There's no way I could anywhere near that amount of volume with anything near 400. And no, you probably wouldn't get anywhere with the same thing each day.
Agreed.
HIT4ME
Well-known member
Haha, I actually love discussing this - the ugh was more self-directed because I feel like I am the one that winds up being viewed as arguing or not getting it, etc. And maybe I am stubborn. But I've played with some high volume approaches, especially recently, and even when I want to believe I can do more and get faster results, it just doesn't play out in real life and those theories keep shining through. It's always a good discussion, and I feel like people agree more than they realize, but for some reason when you mention the word "overtraining" to a bodybuilder they recoil and think they have to fight the idea because it signifies a lack of hard work; which isn't true. Dorian Yates had his own style utilizing low-volume and thought a lot of people were over training, but you can't say he didn't work hard.
The word, for some reason, takes on emotional significance in this realm....
And I think part of that has to do with the fact that the ideas were promoted by some very eccentric people with forceful personalities (Mentzer, Jones, even Darden) - I mean, it can seem a little arrogant to tell someone they are training incorrectly to begin with and to do it with such vigor can turn us all off.
MrKleen73
Legend
You speak in a few too many absolutes and over simplify some things but I will say that you have a pretty decent grasp on the idea! However not stimulating, and or not allowing enough time to recover are not the only reasons you would not improve from 1 workout to another or even a 3rd for that matter. Illness, not enough food, CNS variations, being dehydrated, not getting enough sleep the night before, blood sugar levels and many other things could negatively effect performance.
Also overtraining is specifically based on the response and recovery of the CNS. Regardless of if the muscle has completely repaired itself or not during the next training session, if the CNS is still working well then it is not considered overtraining just accumulative stress.
As far as overreaching and overtraining being the same thing, that is a yes and a no. Overreaching is the PLANNED act of intentionally overtraining for an acute period, followed by an intentional down time where the CNS actually has an opportunity to not only bounce back but temporarily super compensate. Think of it like when you intentionally deplete your glycogen so that you can super-compensate the carb-loading effect before a bodybuilding competition.
Overtraining or as you said the real issue, Chronic Overtraining is done unintentionally, and to the detriment of performance and recovery so it is not the same thing. Just similar. Kind of like a Cheat Meal and a Planned Free Meal most would call them the same thing. Typically the food choices and what not are exactly the same. However the planned free meal is done for a specific purpose of increasing leptin to stoke the metabolism, or increase recovery when it seems to be lagging. A cheat meal is just that, you cheated yourself by having an unplanned meals of excessive calories that negatively effects your progress.
HIT4ME
Well-known member
Yes - I am speaking in absolutes in an attempt to simplify to some degree. I do agree maybe 95-99% with everything you say. Obviously impaired recovery from lack of eating properly, lack of sleep, illness, etc. - is an issue. If you lack protein to build a muscle with, it can't magically be created. If you are ill, your body has more immediate stresses that take energy and resources. But, I feel like people often act like if you are overtraining it is because you are under-eating or under-sleeping and that is only half the equation. And the fact is, once you've achieved the necessary diet and sleep routines, doing more won't make any difference. For instance, I have a TDEE of 2800 calories and need 150 g of protein to grow every day. Getting an additional 50 g of protein and 200 calories will NOT make me recover faster because it is more than my body needs. Now if I need 170 and I'm getting 150 - then yes, I will recover faster, but once I've hit my optimal levels, I'm done. Just like if I'm sleeping 10 hours a day, making that 16 hours a day probably won't help....although I'd like to try sometime
As far as the CNS issue - I think the CNS is the big part of it all and the easiest thing to truly over train, I agree there. But I also think that if your muscle fibers aren't recovering, that creates more resources that are necessary to repair, which gets back to the limited resources that your body has (made worse if you aren't even providing the optimal resources through sleep/nutrition/etc.) Again, this is kind of one of those over simplifications - because you can hit a muscle every day and grow. The muscle IS the easier thing to have recover - but I often wonder if it is easier to get your CNS to actually adapt sometimes. However, if you chronically train your muscles and they are just slightly under recovered each time...that builds and eventually those resources will take away from CNS recovery too....
On the other hand, some of this is all good in theory and sometimes you gotta try new things and sometimes theory only gets you so far. I think you and I see pretty much eye to eye on the over-reaching/over-training topic, I was just pointing out the same as you - they are the same thing except over-reaching is planned; and for some reason people don't like the word over-training so no one would do it if it was called "planned over training" but it is all the rage when you call it over-reaching
I think the over-reaching thing is a good way to point out the complexities. There is a difference between chronic and acute stress - and both can lead to adaptations. A small amount of over reaching followed by sufficient recovery/adaptation can be a useful tool, especially in advanced trainees I bet. Sometimes you simply can't "flip the switch" to stimulate adaptation all in one go, especially when the intensities involved preclude certain volumes being used. In other words, someone benching 200 pounds shouldn't need to over-reach as they can train at sufficient intensity with sufficient volume in a single workout to stimulate growth. Someone who is capable of benching 500 pounds, however, will either begin using so much energy for each rep that they cannot do much volume, or they will need to drop weight and use a bunch of volume/frequency. Again, a little simplified.
And your cheat meal analogy is actually pretty dang awesome. I am stealing that and putting it in the library with all the stuff I've stolen from Mentzer. In my eyes, that's a compliment....depending on your thoughts on Mentzer....sorry if it's not...
The final thought here is, I think we pretty much agree on the bulk of everything with such minute twists and angles that it is hard to effectively communicate online and even in a single conversation. I bet if we were training together we would both be learning from those twists....sucks you can't travel over the internet.
MrKleen73
Legend
Yes - I am speaking in absolutes in an attempt to simplify to some degree. I do agree maybe 95-99% with everything you say. Obviously impaired recovery from lack of eating properly, lack of sleep, illness, etc. - is an issue. If you lack protein to build a muscle with, it can't magically be created. If you are ill, your body has more immediate stresses that take energy and resources. But, I feel like people often act like if you are overtraining it is because you are under-eating or under-sleeping and that is only half the equation. And the fact is, once you've achieved the necessary diet and sleep routines, doing more won't make any difference. For instance, I have a TDEE of 2800 calories and need 150 g of protein to grow every day. Getting an additional 50 g of protein and 200 calories will NOT make me recover faster because it is more than my body needs. Now if I need 170 and I'm getting 150 - then yes, I will recover faster, but once I've hit my optimal levels, I'm done. Just like if I'm sleeping 10 hours a day, making that 16 hours a day probably won't help....although I'd like to try sometime
As far as the CNS issue - I think the CNS is the big part of it all and the easiest thing to truly over train, I agree there. But I also think that if your muscle fibers aren't recovering, that creates more resources that are necessary to repair, which gets back to the limited resources that your body has (made worse if you aren't even providing the optimal resources through sleep/nutrition/etc.) Again, this is kind of one of those over simplifications - because you can hit a muscle every day and grow. The muscle IS the easier thing to have recover - but I often wonder if it is easier to get your CNS to actually adapt sometimes. However, if you chronically train your muscles and they are just slightly under recovered each time...that builds and eventually those resources will take away from CNS recovery too....
On the other hand, some of this is all good in theory and sometimes you gotta try new things and sometimes theory only gets you so far. I think you and I see pretty much eye to eye on the over-reaching/over-training topic, I was just pointing out the same as you - they are the same thing except over-reaching is planned; and for some reason people don't like the word over-training so no one would do it if it was called "planned over training" but it is all the rage when you call it over-reaching
I think the over-reaching thing is a good way to point out the complexities. There is a difference between chronic and acute stress - and both can lead to adaptations. A small amount of over reaching followed by sufficient recovery/adaptation can be a useful tool, especially in advanced trainees I bet. Sometimes you simply can't "flip the switch" to stimulate adaptation all in one go, especially when the intensities involved preclude certain volumes being used. In other words, someone benching 200 pounds shouldn't need to over-reach as they can train at sufficient intensity with sufficient volume in a single workout to stimulate growth. Someone who is capable of benching 500 pounds, however, will either begin using so much energy for each rep that they cannot do much volume, or they will need to drop weight and use a bunch of volume/frequency. Again, a little simplified.
And your cheat meal analogy is actually pretty dang awesome. I am stealing that and putting it in the library with all the stuff I've stolen from Mentzer. In my eyes, that's a compliment....depending on your thoughts on Mentzer....sorry if it's not...
The final thought here is, I think we pretty much agree on the bulk of everything with such minute twists and angles that it is hard to effectively communicate online and even in a single conversation. I bet if we were training together we would both be learning from those twists....sucks you can't travel over the internet.
Agreed, just keep in mind that your macro needs change with not only composition but hormonal status. So the hard lines you drew with the protein requirements are not actually that hard lined.
As for the assessment on the benchers who can bench 200, and 500, you are only considering growth in that equation and not strength. Someone training for strength can certainly increase strength benching 500lbs. Hypertrophy is not the only consideration. Also that person would do better to do the heavy lifts, and also work at lower weights to increase the volume for growth. Either way both can definitely make progress and stimulate adaptation without intentionally over-reaching. However the best programs have an over-reaching component and a hyper recovery component, whether that is strength or hypertrophy based. Quite simply you are setting your body up for a rebound effect that you can capitalize on to increase your gains over what you would achieve with linear progression only. So no you do not need it, and it is an advanced methodology that typically doesn't even warrant being employed until someone has gotten passed the newbie gains stage. However it is a very real effect.
For a comparison, my heaviest Dead lift before my meet was a GRINDING 575, at the meet after over-reaching then super compensating my CNS was so amped I pulled 606 like it was NOTHING! I had at least another 20lbs in me but no more attempts. Squat same deal, grinded out a 455 single in training the week before the meet then after that week of rest I was able to grind out 501.5. Same with Bench was sitting at 335 and went in and put up 368 like it was nothing... Probably had 15-20lbs in the tank. It definitely works and works well.
HIT4ME
Well-known member
Hey guys, I was talking to FireTitan and he asked me to inform everyone following this log that he hasn't had much time and may not be around for a couple days. He has a super busy schedule and some personal things he has to take care of - but he will be back to keep reminding us that he is better at this than we are soon.
Martyfnemec
Well-known member
I hope all is well with him!
Br1ck_Sh1thouse
Well-known member
He's just a BIG PU5SY! just because he works like 5 jobs, is studying for some big test, has a family and lifts a sh1t ton, and sleeps like 30min a day, he suddenly has some kind of excuse to not be giving us hourly updates? What kind of BULLSH1T is that???
Brandinooooo
Well-known member
EXACTLY. WHAT A SLACKER!
SFreed
Board Supporter
You have him tied up in your basement, don't you
HIT4ME
Well-known member
D#mnit, is that not acceptable?
SFreed
Board Supporter
The only thing we have in common with Planet Fitness.......This is a judgement free zone. What one consenting adult does in his basement..........
HIT4ME
Well-known member
DemntedCowboy
Well-known member
Just make sure he keeps putting the lotion on the skin
MrKleen73
Legend
He said ONE consenting adult. That consenting adult is you. Titan's consent is apparently not needed in this situation. CARRY ON!
FireTitan
Legend
Ok guys Im back in here. Sorry for the delay but had some serious personal issues to handle. To be honest, the wife and I have decided to part ways and its been a very hard week. I haven't been able to lift at all, but have accomplished a few days of cardio. Its going to be rough for a while, but Im done with the pity party. HOWEVER.. R1balla I do apologize to you because I feel like Ive let you down. Starting tomorrow I will be back into the groove. Thats all I have for now, but I will make my return in full swing this weekend. Standby to standby fellas...and thank you for the support
HIT4ME
Well-known member
Kletus! Get back in your cage!
Keep fighting the good fight brother. Every day starts new.
Martyfnemec
Well-known member
I'm sorry to hear that, man. Your tomorrow is as bright as you make it. Keep your chin up.
Oriza7
Member
Sorry to hear that, Titan. Hopefully the AM family can help get you back to beast mode. Keep your head up, brotha.
thorsdad31
Well-known member
SFreed
Board Supporter
FireTitan hang in there my friend. We're trying to get a meet up going with hairygrandpa when he invades Merica later this year. Would be stellar if you could manage it.
And I know you don't need it, but give me a call if there's something I can help with.
And I know you don't need it, but give me a call if there's something I can help with.
MrKleen73
Legend
Keep your head up brother. For whatever reason you all decided to part ways it will be for the best in the end.
On a good note most people lose weight after a break up so they can be or feel attractive again. You already got that part out of the way and are looking studly. Onward and upward from here Brother!
On a good note most people lose weight after a break up so they can be or feel attractive again. You already got that part out of the way and are looking studly. Onward and upward from here Brother!
