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Trying to build muscle and lose fat

I like the sound of that. Inexpensive way to fight catabolism of muscle in a caloric deficit.
We actually make a product that includes carbohydrates that would aid in this process quite well.

Infusion contains:
5g of cluster dextrin
5g of dextrose
10g of Maltodextrin

This would be more of a long term process, and not really addressing a shorter term cut.
How long do you think it would take most people to lose 6 to 8% body fat while at least maintaining muscle?
That seems like a lofty goal for anyone using natural means in less than 12 weeks.
 
APC80 said:
A surplus of calories is the most efficient way of building muscle, it comes at a snails pace while in a deficit. Good luck adding 20-30 pounds of muscle to your body while in a caloric deficit.
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I think that if someone intends to recomp they aren't trying to gain 20+lbs of muscle in a year anyway.

Realistically can someone even expect to gain that much muscle consistently over the years?
 
Solem said:
I think that if someone intends to recomp they aren't trying to gain 20+lbs of muscle in a year anyway.
Realistically can someone even expect to gain that much muscle consistently over the years?
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In the 90 day study, 20 of the men gained 2.5 lbs of (FFM) muscle while losing fat, so it wasn't that much muscle but it's better than losing it. The great thing here is, they weren't supplementing anything really except protein that I could find. So this is encouraging. It wasn't really stated if they were trained athletes or new to the experience. New found gains are more easily obtained with those just starting the process. "Newbie Gains".

Just the same, it's nice to see this is possible in the long run, and I'm sure all of us are well aware of that when stretched over a year or more. The OP isn't quite interested in that however. He wants to get himself to the beach looking more lean in much less time. That said, the fact one would be losing muscle or at least maintaining it is more of a probability. Which is also to say, this isn't a horrible trade off to be cut up instead of looking big and soft. It depends on one's goals.
 
justhere4comm said:
In the 90 day study, 20 of the men gained 2.5 lbs of (FFM) muscle while losing fat, so it wasn't that much muscle but it's better than losing it. The great thing here is, they weren't supplementing anything really except protein that I could find. So this is encouraging. It wasn't really stated if they were trained athletes or new to the experience. New found gains are more easily obtained with those just starting the process. "Newbie Gains".

Just the same, it's nice to see this is possible in the long run, and I'm sure all of us are well aware of that when stretched over a year or more. The OP isn't quite interested in that however. He wants to get himself to the beach looking more lean in much less time. That said, the fact one would be losing muscle or at least maintaining it is more of a probability. Which is also to say, this isn't a horrible trade off to be cut up instead of looking big and soft. It depends on one's goals.
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That study only covered a month of fat loss. 10lbs of fat lost and 2.5lbs in muscle gained over a month.

If that was possibly sustainable they would work out to around 30lbs that year.
 
Solem said:
That study only covered a month of fat loss. 10lbs of fat lost and 2.5lbs in muscle gained over a month.

If that was possibly sustainable they would work out to around 30lbs that year.
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Ha. I'm laughing at myself here. I've read so many studies the past week I must have confused this one for another I was just reading. It had to do with adverse effects on the liver; the preservation of skeletal muscle; and cancer patients. You're absolutely right, and my apology for mixing them up. You should try to duplicate that study, and log it! I know I would definitely follow.

The one thing at the end that is a slight concern:
"We designed this program for overweight young men, although I'm sure it would work for young women too, to get fitter, stronger, and to lose weight fast. It's a tough program and not something that's sustainable or for those looking for quick and easy fix," says Phillips. "We controlled their diets, we supervised the exercise, and we really kept these guys under our 'scientific' thumb for the four weeks the participants were in the study."

Phillips and his team hope to conduct a follow-up study on women and also explore a different approach that he says will be "a little easier and much more sustainable."
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I think you would lose muscle in the process. Only one way to find out.
Take no supplements except protein, follow their protocol to the letter, and then we'll all know for sure.
Good luck!
 
justhere4comm said:
Ha. I'm laughing at myself here. I've read so many studies the past week I must have confused this one for another I was just reading. It had to do with adverse effects on the liver; the preservation of skeletal muscle; and cancer patients. You're absolutely right, and my apology for mixing them up. You should try to duplicate that study, and log it! I know I would definitely follow.

The one thing at the end that is a slight concern:


I think you would lose muscle in the process. Only one way to find out.
Take no supplements except protein, follow their protocol to the letter, and then we'll all know for sure.
Good luck!
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A 40% deficit seems quite steep personally. Hungry imagining it.
 
Solem said:
A 40% deficit seems quite steep personally. Hungry imagining it.
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That might be part of the key to the process. I'm being serious here, and it might be triggering one's physiology to preserve muscle through various pathways and taking advantage of glycogenesis as it relates to the increase in protein intake.

I would be your biggest cheerleader my man.
You log it, I will follow, and I will invite a nice group of like minded individuals to help keep you going. So are you with me?!

Increased protein intake reduces lean body mass loss during weight loss in athletes.
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Effect of a hypocaloric diet, increased protein intake and resistance training on lean mass gains and fat mass loss in overweight police officers.
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Effects of High Protein Intake With Intense Exercise and Energy Deficit (RIPPED)
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Higher compared with lower dietary protein during an energy deficit combined with intense exercise promotes greater lean mass gain and fat mass loss: a randomized trial1,2
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Solem - to get back on topic instead of jerking our egos here, how deep of a deficit are you in and for how long? If it's been a prolonged time, eating at maintenance for a week or two and then cutting back down will greatly help.

I would look into bloodshred, especially if you need help with energy and appetite suppression. If you do fasted cardio AM, and can handle it, the Raw version will kick up your cardio. Assassinate and Super Shred are also good additions.
 
justhere4comm said:
You cannot build muscle and lose fat. Pick one.

1. Cut / Minimize muscle loss
2. Bulk / Minimize fat gain
3. Maintain

Physiology 101
Decrease calories to below TDEE to lose
Increase calories above TDEE to gain

Don't waste your money on a giant stack when you don't need to.
There are better ways.
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You actually can, but the leaner you are/longer you've been training - the more close to impossible it becomes. Menno Henselmans is a good source in this area.
 
And as an aside (and who the F am I anyway, but I'll say it just the same): justhere4comm - posting 700 things a day so you build up a huge post count quickly (over 4,300 and you've only been here since July?) doesn't add to credibility IMO.
 
The_Old_Guy said:
You actually can, but the leaner you are/longer you've been training - the more close to impossible it becomes. Menno Henselmans is a good source in this area.
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Thats fair, and I agree with a post above: over a decent period of time, recomping may not be the most efficient way of getting from point A to point B.

Some advanced guys use methods like carb-cycling in order to recomp; whilst Im hesitant to use the term I guess in a way this is a kind of very shortterm oscillation between cut-bulking.

I mean who says cut-bulking has to be thought of in terms of months? I think we all would agree that the body is undergoing metamorphosis by the day, hell by the hour...but in most instances the changes in those kind of timeframes are so subtle they dont manifest on a perceivable scale.
 
Instead of gaining muscles while losing fat:
Try to up muscle mass while not gaining fat, this way shifting BF percentage down.

Happened to me every time I tried to cut, mainly due to misjudging calorie intake. I gained muscles but did not gain fat.
Over time BF% goes down as weight goes up, not to the point of being lean -but it's a good start.
 
Nac said:
Thats fair, and I agree with a post above: over a decent period of time, recomping may not be the most efficient way of getting from point A to point B.

Some advanced guys use methods like carb-cycling in order to recomp; whilst Im hesitant to use the term I guess in a way this is a kind of very shortterm oscillation between cut-bulking.

I mean who says cut-bulking has to be thought of in terms of months? I think we all would agree that the body is undergoing metamorphosis by the day, hell by the hour...but in most instances the changes in those kind of timeframes are so subtle they dont manifest on a perceivable scale.
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Yea, I'm no expert, I just listen to all of them speak :D I was just talking in terms of a fat guy at 20% who's been lifting a year vs guy at 12% ( legit 12, not internet 12 :D) who's been lifting for 10+ years.
 
The_Old_Guy said:
And as an aside (and who the F am I anyway, but I'll say it just the same): justhere4comm - posting 700 things a day so you build up a huge post count quickly (over 4,300 and you've only been here since July?) doesn't add to credibility IMO.
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I'm not sure I understand what your point is here, as I'm not really interested in post counts, or anything related to such a statistic. I'd be perfectly fine with a 300 post count. Maybe Admin could make that happen, and strip me of any 'awards' I have earned. It's ok with me, and doesn't change anything in my world.
 
justhere4comm said:
I'm not sure I understand what your point is here, as I'm not really interested in post counts, or anything related to such a statistic. I'd be perfectly fine with a 300 post count. Maybe Admin could make that happen, and strip me of any 'awards' I have earned. It's ok with me, and doesn't change anything in my world.
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WHAT?
All the fancy achievement awards mean nothing?

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It means everything and those who say otherwise are just bitter old men.

:D
 
Recomping is essentially a super slow process but it is very doable depending on your discipline and training experience.

As I've stated in the past, if you're going all out bulk mode and trying your best, if you have been training for over 3 years, your rate of muscle gain is slow. So obviously, if you aren't going all out bulk mode, your rate of muscle gain will be even slower than that. People like seeing results quick and fast. That's why people do crash diets, super duper bulks, and people on here take 500 dollar stacks of supplements.
 
We don't have a gereatric forum for you. Lol
 
Woody said:
Solem - to get back on topic instead of jerking our egos here, how deep of a deficit are you in and for how long? If it's been a prolonged time, eating at maintenance for a week or two and then cutting back down will greatly help.

I would look into bloodshred, especially if you need help with energy and appetite suppression. If you do fasted cardio AM, and can handle it, the Raw version will kick up your cardio. Assassinate and Super Shred are also good additions.
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I've been in a roughly 500cal deficit since last August.

I believe there were a myriad of variables that caused my to stall as I lost five pounds of something this week. I was stressed among other things.

Blood shred sounds like it might be right for me. I suffer from energy loss and get hungry around 2pm.

Thanks.
 
justhere4comm said:
You cannot build muscle and lose fat. Pick one.

1. Cut / Minimize muscle loss
2. Bulk / Minimize fat gain
3. Maintain

Physiology 101
Decrease calories to below TDEE to lose
Increase calories above TDEE to gain

Don't waste your money on a giant stack when you don't need to.
There are better ways.
Click to expand...
This post is gold, and so true. Learn to cut and bulk without extra aid other than yourself and diet.
 
The_Old_Guy said:
And as an aside (and who the F am I anyway, but I'll say it just the same): justhere4comm - posting 700 things a day so you build up a huge post count quickly (over 4,300 and you've only been here since July?) doesn't add to credibility IMO.
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If anything it shows said person have to much freetime on hand. One could wonder if that time wouldn't be better spent inside a gym?
 
TestE86 said:
This post is gold, and so true. Learn to cut and bulk without extra aid other than yourself and diet.
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The part saying it's not necessary to spend a ton of money on supplements is true, but the part about not being able to gain muscle and lose fat is categorically wrong.
Solem said:
Lol it's not true and a study was cited showing that you can do both.
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There were several studies ITT alone with results showing it is possible.
justhere4comm said:
Thank you.
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For continuing to affirm and perpetuate incorrect information?
 
muscleupcrohn said:
The part saying it's not necessary to spend a ton of money on supplements is true, but the part about not being able to gain muscle and lose fat is categorically wrong.

There were several studies ITT alone with results showing it is possible.
For continuing to affirm and perpetuate incorrect information?
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They were overweight men, and it isn't healthy to do that, but if you wish to perpetuate it's the proper methodology, please continue. I prefer slow and healthy progress. You may have missed the part where I agreed with the findings of the study, and suggested the OP actually follow the same protocol. Let's find out how well it works for him. Post #56.
 
justhere4comm said:
They were overweight men, and it isn't healthy to do that, but if you wish to perpetuate it's the proper methodology, please continue. I prefer slow and healthy progress. You may have missed the part where I agreed with the findings of the study, and suggested the OP actually follow the same protocol. Let's find out how well it works for him. Post #56.
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I never said it's the ideal way to build your physique, but it is undoubtedly possible, which you initially denied, and which someone just agreed with, and you thanked, despite it still being wrong. Also, note that I am not only talking about that one study in overweight men with a large caloric deficit, but I guess you didn't read the other studies I posted. Granted, they weren't conducted with the intention of seeing if it's possible to gain muscle and lose fat, but the results showed that it's indeed possible. Here they are again:
Twenty three experienced recreationally strength trained males (weight: 86.8 ± 9.1 kg; training experience: 4.8 ± 2.3 months; BF%: 16.9 ± 8%) between the ages of 18 and 35 were recruited...
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Twenty-four resistance-trained males were tested and included in the study.
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So this seems to show that it's still possible to "recomp" if you're not an overweight man and not in a large caloric deficit, so there goes that argument.

So let's move on from here and stop beating this dead horse; you admit that it is indeed possible to gain muscle and lose fat, even if you're not an overweight man, and it isn't inherently unhealthy?
 
Solem said:
Lol it's not true and a study was cited showing that you can do both.
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Try it out then, you'll end up disappointed because you wasted months of not growing and not losing fat. When you could have done 3 months of each and had much better results.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
I never said it's the ideal way to build your physique, but it is undoubtedly possible, which you initially denied, and which someone just agreed with, and you thanked, despite it still being wrong. Also, note that I am not only talking about that one study in overweight men with a large caloric deficit, but I guess you didn't read the other studies I posted. Granted, they weren't conducted with the intention of seeing if it's possible to gain muscle and lose fat, but the results showed that it's indeed possible. Here they are again:

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So this seems to show that it's still possible to "recomp" if you're not an overweight man and not in a large caloric deficit, so there goes that argument.

So let's move on from here and stop beating this dead horse; you admit that it is indeed possible to gain muscle and lose fat, even if you're not an overweight man, and it isn't inherently unhealthy?
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I have learned not to argue with you whenever it is possible to avoid....live and learn:lol:
 
Cooter Flap said:
Try it out then, you'll end up disappointed because you wasted months of not growing and not losing fat. When you could have done 3 months of each and had much better results.
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Healthy and slow is better than fast and not healthy.

Revisiting the original post synopsis:
"Alright. I'm 24 and 178lbs at 5'8 with 18% body fat trying to cut down to 12-10 by the summerish."
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6-8% body fat drop in 30 days, while gaining muscle?

He would have to drop 16 pounds of fat in 30 days, and gain muscle. That would be 4 pounds per week, but also by adding .625 pounds of muscle per week. So, please stop citing studies and look at the person in this discussion and address them specifically instead of focusing on how you are 'right' and I am 'wrong'.

90 days would be more agreeable and achievable.
 
Of course it is possible to build muscle and loose fat at the same time. Recomposition. It just will not happen over a night.

Follow a good training program like Candito linear or 6 week strength program. Or why not Sheiko.
Eat to perform, keep an eye on the mirror and keep focus on the main lift. In other words, don´t fückarounditis at the gym!
 
justhere4comm said:
Healthy and slow is better than fast and not healthy.

Revisiting the original post synopsis:

6-8% body fat drop in 30 days, while gaining muscle?

He would have to drop 16 pounds of fat in 30 days, and gain muscle. That would be 4 pounds per week. So, please stop citing studies and look at the person in this discussion and address them specifically instead of focusing on how you are 'right' and I am 'wrong'.

90 days would be more agreeable and achievable.
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You're deflecting my friend. I agree that for the vast majority of people, it's a wiser decision to focus on either gaining muscle or losing fat, not trying to to both at the same time. Had that been all you said, we wouldn't be having this conversation. What you said was "You cannot build muscle and lose fat. Pick one." Once that was proven to be categorically wrong, you qualified your answer by saying that it can only be done, or at least it has only been demonstrated to be done, in overweight males with a large caloric deficit, which I showed to be untrue with more than one study. I wholeheartedly agree with your statements that it's best to focus on one goal, keep your expectations realistic, and not spend a plethora of money on a supplement stack, but that's not what our little disagreement here is about.

As for the OP, he says he wants to be 10-12%by summerish, and summer begins on June 21, which is just over 3 months away, so lets call it 90 days for easy calculations. Where is the 30 days coming from? Granted, that is quite a bit of fat to lose, so it's one thing to tell him to keep his expectations in check, but I fail to see how saying that you can't gain muscle and lose fat at the same time, which simply isn't true, even if your intentions were good.

The assertion that somehow only overweight men can gain muscle while losing fat, and that a large caloric deficit must be employed, is also unsubstantiated and nonsensical. Granted, the one study referenced earlier used the above mentioned subjects and diet, but other studies have shown that "recomping" is possible in non-overweight men without a large caloric deficit, such as this study which noted a 3.7lb increase in LBM and a 6.3lb reduction in fat mass (corresponding to a decrease in body fat from 17.5% to 14.3%) in 6 weeks. It's also worth noting that diet was not controlled in this study, so clearly a large caloric deficit was not employed for this study
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TL;DR, can you admit that it is indeed possible to gain muscle and lose fat, even if you're not an overweight man, and it isn't inherently unhealthy, and doesn't require a large caloric deficit? I'm not asking you to say that it's the ideal/best idea for everyone or the OP, so please do not deflect to that.
 
Does anyone actually get stronger while cutting? Personally I struggle to maintain strength and get a bit weaker on some lifts modtly bench and overhead pressing. Surely then you're only gonna build so much muscle before you're body adapts and is no longer challenged by the weight. I'd like to see a study 3-4 months to see what happens especially as the participants get lean.
 
APC80 said:
Does anyone actually get stronger while cutting? Personally I struggle to maintain strength and get a bit weaker on some lifts modtly bench and overhead pressing. Surely then you're only gonna build so much muscle before you're body adapts and is no longer challenged by the weight. I'd like to see a study 3-4 months to see what happens especially as the participants get lean.
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During cutting, I usually lose strength slightly on my upper body, and maintain my lower body. The thing is though, I think this is a multi-faceted phenomenon. Losing water, glycogen, and neural fatigue (due to lack of carbs or whatever) can effect your strength on any given day.
 
APC80 said:
Does anyone actually get stronger while cutting? Personally I struggle to maintain strength and get a bit weaker on some lifts modtly bench and overhead pressing. Surely then you're only gonna build so much muscle before you're body adapts and is no longer challenged by the weight. I'd like to see a study 3-4 months to see what happens especially as the participants get lean.
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For 1 solid year I was in a caloric deficit, going from 285lbs to around 210lbs - I got stronger. Now, even though I had been in supreme condition at points in the past, I was basically untrained for about 10 years, so there is that. But a year is still pushing it as far as claiming "fatnewbrecomp" gains.

Second time was 8 weeks, going from around 215 to around 200 - got stronger, but was using Ostarine, which really just helps keep what you have, not addd, but still - some confounding is there.

Currently doing a Keto cut on about -600kcal with 68g of Protein/day. I set a Squat PR a week or two ago and am not having to strip weight. The one thing I *am* seeing, is a loss of a rep or two when doing the 11-15 range - but I'm pretty sure this has something to do with some Carb Depletion/Glycogen/ATP thing because 1RMs should be dropping if muscle is being lost.

I believe there is a ton of myth/bro tales in this thing of ours.
 
The_Old_Guy said:
For 1 solid year I was in a caloric deficit, going from 285lbs to around 210lbs - I got stronger. Now, even though I had been in supreme condition at points in the past, I was basically untrained for about 10 years, so there is that. But a year is still pushing it as far as claiming "fatnewbrecomp" gains.

Second time was 8 weeks, going from around 215 to around 200 - got stronger, but was using Ostarine, which really just helps keep what you have, not addd, but still - some confounding is there.

Currently doing a Keto cut on about -600kcal with 68g of Protein/day. I set a Squat PR a week or two ago and am not having to strip weight. The one thing I *am* seeing, is a loss of a rep or two when doing the 11-15 range - but I'm pretty sure this has something to do with some Carb Depletion/Glycogen/ATP thing because 1RMs should be dropping if muscle is being lost.

I believe there is a ton of myth/bro tales in this thing of ours.
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Agreed. Making significant progress on my 1RM with keto.
 
Not arguing with you guys like, you're far more knowledgeable than me I'm just trying to understand. I mean I've heard a lot of people say they get stronger on a keto diet but when I went low carb at the end of my last cut I felt weak, brain fog, couldn't get a proper nights sleep ans all that. Must affect everyone different.
 
APC80 said:
Not arguing with you guys like, you're far more knowledgeable than me I'm just trying to understand. I mean I've heard a lot of people say they get stronger on a keto diet but when I went low carb at the end of my last cut I felt weak, brain fog, couldn't get a proper nights sleep and all that. Must affect everyone different.
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I had a problem with Keto myself. I think I was eating too much protein, and my body was breaking it down to use as fuel, keeping me from entering the keto state. I know, rude right? The process if memory serves is Gluconeogenesis. (Looking it up.)

"Eating Too Much Protein. ... When you eat more protein than your body needs, some of the amino acids in the protein will be turned into glucose via a process called gluconeogenesis (2). This can become a problem on very low-carb, ketogenic diets and prevent your body from going into full-blown ketosis."
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My own fault, but next time I will be looking into monitoring my levels of keto properly. Looking into this "ketonix" or a proper meter. There are a lot of good things to be said, and I'll step aside and let some pros speak about it.
 
APC80 said:
Not arguing with you guys like, you're far more knowledgeable than me I'm just trying to understand. I mean I've heard a lot of people say they get stronger on a keto diet but when I went low carb at the end of my last cut I felt weak, brain fog, couldn't get a proper nights sleep ans all that. Must affect everyone different.
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Low carb isn't necessarily Keto. You'd need to know your blood Beta-hydroxy butyrate level? (KetoStix only measure Acetoacetate - you can have that but still not have BhB in the blood).
 
That's interesting, so you need you're body to go into ketosis where it's now using you're body fat as fuel is that correct?
 
APC80 said:
That's interesting, so you need you're body to go into ketosis where it's now using you're body fat as fuel is that correct?
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Yes, for the most part - your body will always produce some glucose or you would die. But the majority of your "fuel" will be from fat. There are different opinions on what exactly ketone levels should be for different goals, but for us, I think "Nutritional Ketosis" is what is strived for. That's at least 0.5mmol/L of Blood BhB. Stuff like Epilepsy and Brain Cancer is "Theraputic Ketosis" and 3-5mmol/L is what I'm seeing as desired. Be prepared to drop protein A LOT (maybe, depends on you) - I couldn't get to 0.5mmol/L until I went under 70g/day. But this is my first stab at true Keto using science and a Blood Ketone Meter, so I may be off on some things.
 
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