Companies to look out for in 2017??
- Thread starter TrainerTone
- Start date
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
Ughhhhhh.... Tell me where I'm wrong in the following scenarios (and this totally disregards the fact that if you are using an ingredient to achieve some sort of effect - It is already out there in academia, with the effective dose listed in the research study anyway).
Scenario 1: My name is Jared Wheat (sp?) - I want to copy your product. I take it to one of the 20 labs I own and have it analyzed. All I need are amounts by weight, as the FDA makes everyone say *what* is in a supplement.
Scenario 2: My name is Joe Basement Formulator - I want to copy your product. I buy one, turn it around and look at the label. I then buy bulk bags of every ingredient listed, and add them, in order, BY WEIGHT, so that my label looks exactly like yours. It doesn't even matter if I get close to your amounts (which aren't secret anyway - see above about research studies) - as the consumer only see's identical labels.
Standing by for how prop blends protect supplements...
They are only used to hide something from the consumer (or, if for some whackadoodle reason - the people in the company actually think they are protected).
smith_69
Well-known member
MonteRXS
Well-known member
Ughhhhhhhhhh..... We can go round and round The_Old_Guy. You present valid arguments. I'm not disagreeing with you. But the odds of both scenarios are far more unlikely to happen at this stage. Which is why we made the decision to do what we did.
And let's be honest, JW has far bigger things going on right now than to waste time replicating an unknown formula.
smith_69
Well-known member
Sir- you forgot Scenario 3:
I am the consumer, I help to fund your business.
I pay my taxes, my mortgage, my kids school tuition, my health insurance, my cable bill, gas & electric bill, car insurance, my property taxes.
I make time during my week to better myself and because of bad people in the sup industry who tainted the industry because they used illegal products/practices to make and distribute a product,
I feel im in the right to know what the F I am buying. its pretty simple
MonteRXS
Well-known member
smith_69
Well-known member
already know what?
this was a post in general, not towards one specific company. this isn't a rant, just my feeling on this. again, not directed towards any specific company, but the supplement industry has done some bad things.
If a company feels they are using blends to avoid copy cat, which imo is nonsense because every company uses the just about the same profile- its not a secret ! If its copied and a company feels their product was stolen or used under another label w a different company, go to court.
company a uses full disclosure- here it is folks, take a look - buy with confidence
company b uses a blend- its like Prego, its in there- how much of what exactly and for each one, sorry cant tell you- trust us
its called a supplement panel for a reason, so the manufacture can list whats in there. Not a few things, but all of it.
as a consumer, this is my feeling-
MonteRXS
Well-known member
Unfortunately many companies still follow the shady and dishonest practice of mislabeling products by omitting or including extra ingredients. Some are intentional and some are done by the manufacturer. This needs to stop.
I co-formulated. I did the label design. I know everything is listed on our label according to the SOW with Radiate.
smith_69
Well-known member
and it sucks, honestly especially for those who are doing the right thing. trust me bro, I know what you mean and handled this perfect. wish you the best of luck and for future success
MonteRXS
Well-known member
Thank you brother. You as well! (Was just on the desktop site and saw your signature.)
thebigt
Legend
you should go with me when I am buying a car or truck, lol.....
supps have become expensive, it's nice to be able to 'test drive' before I buy...lots of companies make claims, and often even labels don't live up to their claims either...it's good that a company stands by their products enough to let people try them before buying!!!:beerchug:
Jiigzz
Legend
Spiked products don't declare said ingredient on the label. What difference does it make whether you know the exact dosages?
thebigt
Legend
LOL...and just because a label says it does.....sorry, I'm sure no supplement company would ever mis-label a product:think:
smith_69
Well-known member
why would i want to know the exact doses? i get your question man, but seriously?
what if im on medication and dr says you can have this but dont exceed x amount
if something goes wrong and someone ends up in the ER, how much did you take, no clue?
those are extreme i know, but for me, yes i want to know. as far as (spike products, which wasnt my point or even thinking of that if they are going to spike it, they will) what if you want to add something more to that blend? are you just supposed to guess?
shockrock3
Well-known member
I hope man...I want C&P to go back to their aggressive formulas, want to see them go back to making formulas that make your face peel.
Jiigzz
Legend
Your statement was in relation to tainted products, but what difference does it make it you know the dosages or not? If the product is spiked, it simply won't declare that. More over, some companies could put an ingredient on the label *cough* Prime Nutrition *cough* amd simply not even have it in there.
Knowing the dosages doesn't make the industry any less shady.
Also a doc would likely not do that at all. they would usually just say "discontinue use" rather than don't exceed X amount of random botanical. Only things I can see that being useful for Is vitamins, which legally have to be declared.
If the Doc says to not exceed 100mg of caffeine and that's in a prop blend, and then you decide to take a supplement which had caffeine in a prop blend, that is in you. Even if the product delcared 50mg, they cannot guarantee that in any one scoop that you will get 50mg of caffeine as ingredients do settle.
muscleupcrohn
Legend
Yeah, spiking can happen regardless of if it's a prop blend or fully disclosed, as spiking is, by its very nature, including something that's not listed on the label. I can see why people, especially knowledgeable people who may want to stack supplements, would at least want a ballpark range for ingredients, as some ingredients may not be harmful if double dosed, but may have a dose-response curve where more isn't better, or may result in some unwanted side effects. I feel it also depends on the nature of the product/ingredient and the intended effects of said product/ingredient. For example, if you're just looking for something acute, or something that isn't really objective, like "energy" or "mood improvement," you may not need to know the exact doses (assuming stimulants are dosed safely), as you will know if you like it within a few uses, but for something that is intended to have more concrete/objective results over a longer period of time before you can really "see" any effects, you probably want at least some idea that it's dosed in a logical way with some evidence/research that it will work or do something. If I take a blend of stimulants for energy, I can evaluate it every time I take it, and come to a decent conclusion relatively quickly, where if I take something that's intended to, say, increase my lean body mass, I have to run it for weeks to even be able to come to any conclusions about it at all. Essentially, some products/ingredients lend themselves better to quickly determining if they work for you, as you can get a much larger "sample size" in a much quicker time, meaning you may not have to potentially "waste" as much time or money figuring out if something works or not. All things equal, if I'm looking for something besides purely acute effects, I'd prefer to have a disclosed label than a prop blend label, of course, as I can have a better idea if the product is going to work or not.
Jiigzz
Legend
The main issue I have against 'anti prop blenders' is that they read studies in isolation about ingredients, but rarely ever about combined ingredients or products that work downstream of said ingredient. They look at the data and say "oh that's dosed too low" or "that's dosed too high" but neglect that some products interact with each other and could potentiate them.
muscleupcrohn
Legend
True, but so could a half dose of all of them together, a full dose of just one, etc. The only way to know if something will react poorly for you personally is to try it I suppose, and if it's completely a prop blend, all you learn from it is that you don't react well to that one product, and can't really apply it to future products and/or stacks. Some products use prop blends to hide low quantities, like perhaps putting taurine or something first and only dusting everything else below it so it looks like they could be properly dosed. I agree that a prop blend doesn't inherently mean a product is bad or under-dosed, just that, all things equal, why wouldn't the consumer want a fully disclosed label?
Jiigzz
Legend
But is the onus on the consumer or company to find out what works for YOU and what doesn't? They may have designed it to meet the needs of the many and that could be based off extensive in house testing (or not).
In a product with 10 plus ingredients; if you have an adverse reaction to their dosing, how many people would know what to pinpoint the culprit ingredient down to? Ask the next random gym goer what Huperzine a is meant to do, and then ask them what a typical side effect of ALCAR, Hup a dosing might be. I bet most won't say headache. Most prob don't have any clue what those even are.
So how would they narrow it down?
muscleupcrohn
Legend
I think this is really only an issue for the more educated supplement users, as I agree the typical gym rat probably doesn't know the first thing about ALCAR, let alone doses and side effects. At the end of the day, there's not really even a point in arguing, as we both agree that there can be great and terrible disclosed and proprietary blends.
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
Tell me again, how a prop blend benefits the consumer or protects the supp mfg? Rhetorical, it doesn't. Prop blends are about hiding something. And the "downstream potentiation" argument is fine - but listing the amounts doesn't negate that at all. And you know all those cute footnote numbers they like to put on the ad copy / label about this study, and that study - to "prove" that x ingredient does something? Well, tell me about the study showing that less of the ingredient, combined with this other one, is just as good then. And as far as combined ingredients - like I said before: It's all in the research. See CAF + L-Theanine studies for example. Are you saying that Pixie Dust Mfg. did it's own RCT on it's "special" combination of ingredients? LOL.
There is absolutely no rational defense of prop blends re: the consumer side. It's like arguing the pros of forced child labor - sure, it's great for the company...
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
Admin quick on the trigger today - removing that 1 total post unapproved ad 
Yes but that doesn't mean something nefarious is going on. People jump to that conclusion which is unfair.
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
Nah, I agree, and said so in past threads. *BUT* I'd guess that 9x% of the time, it *is* nefarious. And even in the rare (IMO) instance that it is because the company, for instance, complexed -(-)Epi with a Phytosome - which means they can use less -(-)Epi but get the same blood levels as straight -(-)Epi... they still don't need to hide it - Indena S.p.A. doesn't see the need:
Invalid Link Removed
Just put the info in the marketing/label.
I don't think its that high at all, especially with smaller companies based in and around social media, forums, etc...
Its just my personal view on many of these guys that really did try to start companies because they loved what they do (as well as wanting to make money). Its very easy to have a jaded view of companies given the fact you only hear the bad news at times, and the honest guys that are living month to month busting their hump just trying to make good products never get heard and/or lumped into the shady ones. In fact, the more shady ones generally move into the more "hardcore" items because there is way more money in that.
smith_69
Well-known member
"Knowing the dosages doesn't make the industry any less shady. " it dose when you there are 15 supplements in a blend and that blend is supposed to give you the best- whatever- only to find out that the actual supplement that would give the most benefit for a pump or energy contains the absolute lowest amount. its filled with everything else!
as far as knowing the doses- yes for those who are watching out how much caf they digest and although the label reads x amount, anything else in that supplement that could increase heart rate or intensify the effect of caf for example would be helpful.
again, practices that were in the past as far as spiking is not my reason for wanting to know how much of x,y,x is in a product.
as a consumer, who is spending his own money, I would prefer to see what is in the tub. everything. I get your point but gonna agree to disagree
1Fast400
Well-known member
Companies like prop blends because it allows them to avoid label claim issues. The blend doesn't have to be standardized, just ranking order. Allows greater variance on the production end. There is nothing illegal about doing a 10g prop blend with dosing of 9-.5-.25-.2-.05 but also doing 5-3-1-.6-.4.
Which almost nobody ever finds out.....its just assumption...which then gets used by companies who don't have prop blends to market against those who do. It goes both ways.
Bingo.
smith_69
Well-known member
good point-
Danes
Well-known member
And knowing how much you get of each ingredient makes it easier to stack with other products. (If other products have same ingredient etc).
For us customers, prop blends are just pain in the a$$
enraged_chris
Member
We've had people try to copy stimulant blends and things of that nature in the past so we do tend to not fully disclose our stim blends for that reason alone. With many of our other products the labels are fully disclosed, or at least partially disclosed. The proprietary is meant to protect the time we spent creating a good product at doses we have tested to work-- it'd suck to have another company like the feel and just rip off that portion of a product. I do like to disclose a good numbers of ingredients and we do try to do it with the majority of our products and usually if a customer comes to us I will disclose a ballpark estimate of any ingredient in a prop blend on our products. It just sucks needing to worry about being copied after spending months tweaking a blend and putting time and effort into it. Not EVERYONE in this industry is out to screw with the consumer-- there are still a lot of us out there who are passionate and want to make a living doing something we love and enjoy (you'll see I personally use all of our products, any of my close friends or acquaintances would point that out... or if you saw my house for even a moment). I guess what I'm trying to say is educate yourself as a consumer but also understand why companies do proprietary blends and the reasoning for them isn't always to pull a fast one on the consumer. Companies with full disclosure labels in the past have been caught not properly dosing ingredients so I think it just comes down to finding companies you trust and voting with your wallet to support them.
1Fast400
Well-known member
For 1000 bucks I can have any label broke down I want. Any competitor that wants to know anything, can do it in less than 2 weeks.
Danes
Well-known member
Exactly!
I laugh when some say "we use prop blend to protect our formulation". Ehhh...
I bet the same amount of people that would spend $1000 is similar to those who are fully compliant. You are a bit rare in this industry. :lol:
I don't. Mike makes a good point, but knowing the industry...99.9% won't spend that money to find out.
Danes
Well-known member
enraged_chris
Member
Of course someone can get a product tested... and people do but the people I'd really worry about doing that would probably be stopped by just not seeing it on a label and those are the sorts we have dealt with in the past. Anyone who really wanted to get anything out of it could see what's more or less exactly in a product anyway and I've done that in the past myself to check out label claims on products. I really don't think proprietary blends hurt the industry that much at all-- the VAST majority of consumers are nothing like the readers here at anabolic minds and wouldn't even read a label enough to tell the difference between a prop blend or full disclosure-- I see it every day. Anyways, we do disclose 90%+ of the dosages of ingredients on our labels and I do like a good portion of open labeling but I've taken plenty of solid products from other companies that I'd recommend that feature at least a partial prop blend.
Danes
Well-known member
It would be damn lie if I say you are wrong sir, but I am that 0.01% who really could pay 1000 to get a product tested. After experiencing Testosterone shut down (bloodwork proof), I would gladly pay Mike 1000$ if he can lab test product for me!
1Fast400
Well-known member
Because 99% of the industry doesn't care. Almost nobody has anything novel these days. People taking the same ingredients and mixing them up and calling it something different. Science? GTFOH. People talk science and have never ran a study or funded a study in their entire life. 3 bro's taking some product isn't a study. Overwhelming majority of companies have zero quality control, would fail an audit miserable and are nothing more than marketing companies. I'd wager most companies don't even have retention samples, if they do, they aren't properly stored or documented. The amount of **** a company has to do to be as compliant as possible, is incredibly expensive. I had 5 full time QC/QA people. 1 with a PHD, 2 with masters degree's.
The industry is so much worse than anyone can actually imagine.
Danes
Well-known member
Brb, Reading more Pubmed and Ergo-Log and getting back with some inovative / never-seen-before supplements. And brag of my "formulation" skills.
And yes, I know pretty good how bad this industry is.
If you have laws that don't get enforced, that is what you get.
To be fair, some of the most knowledgable people in the industry don't have degree's. One of my good friends has a phd and couldn't change a tire if you gave him a million dollars.
Danes
Well-known member
Haha
I totaly agree , you dont need to have degree's to be good at something. That is for sure but you need a damn good understanding , interest and love for thing you do to be good at it.
Its why I buy Xtend along with another BCAA product.
ma70
Well-known member
I've been an Xtend customer for years! The orange flavor is something I can't pass up.