Steroids' users hormone balance irreparably damaged after a couple of years

[whiteboystomp]

no guarantees return to normal ... that said, I think a single run, with proper pct - you return to normal. or VERY close to it. one main variable in play here, though --- and its not the compounds you run, because "shut down is shutdown". regardless of the compound -- zero out put because of the input, = zero output.period. all things being equal on the pct - it comes down to the length of your cycle. the longer you are shutdown the greater the risk of irreparable damage.

but again -- I go back to - whats the ****ing point? you gonna run ONE cycle to look good on the beach (of which almost all of your gains will disappear once you come off if you don't go back on) and risk ****ing up you hormonal system for the rest of your life? if you aren't competing, which most of us are not - and not willing to go on hrt - you really shouldn't be playing this game.

 

[Giants95]

no guarantees return to normal ... that said, I think a single run, with proper pct - you return to normal. or VERY close to it. one main variable in play here, though --- and its not the compounds you run, because "shut down is shutdown". regardless of the compound -- zero out put because of the input, = zero output.period. all things being equal on the pct - it comes down to the length of your cycle. the longer you are shutdown the greater the risk of irreparable damage.

but again -- I go back to - whats the ****ing point? you gonna run ONE cycle to look good on the beach (of which almost all of your gains will disappear once you come off if you don't go back on) and risk ****ing up you hormonal system for the rest of your life? if you aren't competing, which most of us are not - and not will to go on hrt - you really shouldn't be playing this game.

I agree. It's definitely a big boy decision.

 

[sespress]

Getting in your car and driving to work is a risk. I live in Florida. The threat is real.

Dude. Florida drivers are INSANE! I used to live there. Everyone goes like 100+ on 95.

 

[justhere4comm]

On i75 I heard of a driver traveling at about 150mph and made it from Tampa to Sarasota in under 3o minutes.

It's not the speeding. It's the a holes who don't obey stop signs and make up their own rules. It's crazy.

 

[sespress]

I dunno. All these studies show to me is what is possible if you follow sh1t PCT practices.

Lots of guys believe if any compound is gonna fuk you over its trestolone. Ive heard of long recoveries following it but no-one has ever reported it fuking them over.

Therefore, rainbows.

I had always heard it was deca or a 19nor PH that were rough. I've heard tren is tough on cycle but haven't heard reports of recovery one way or the other on it. I wonder what the dose was on someone who never recovered from trest, or how long they ran it. If you read around you hear about people running back to back cycles of heavy **** with almost no break after PCT. I feel like these guys are the ones posting back 6 months later saying there test numbers are jacked up. I'm gonna go Trest myself next time but I'm keeping to a small dose.

 

[whiteboystomp]

I had always heard it was deca or a 19nor PH that were rough. I've heard tren is tough on cycle but haven't heard reports of recovery one way or the other on it. I wonder what the dose was on someone who never recovered from trest, or how long they ran it. If you read around you hear about people running back to back cycles of heavy **** with almost no break after PCT. I feel like these guys are the ones posting back 6 months later saying there test numbers are jacked up. I'm gonna go Trest myself next time but I'm keeping to a small dose.

its not the compound itself that causes the problems - because shut down is shut down. again -- it really comes down to "how long". deca and npp are the same compound - BUT, the longer estered deca is going to cause more issues because it takes longer to clear. same with tren E and ace ...

once shutdown - how long are you shut down. you may only run an 8 week cycle of deca - but in reality you've got another 5-7 weeks before it clears.
as compared to an 8 week cycle of npp -- which only takes about 14 days to clear. (my numbers may be a little off, but the dramatic difference between the two is still the same).

as a general rule, sespress, I totally agree with you on the back to back cycles. most people do the "minimum" on PCT time, see their results fading quickly(because they REALLY don't know how to eat and train in the first place) and then jump right back on. not to mention -- the majority never got base line bloods run in the first place and have no idea what their starting point was. all they know is they feel like **** - and their results are fading.

 

[sespress]

its not the compound itself that causes the problems - because shut down is shut down. again -- it really comes down to "how long". deca and npp are the same compound - BUT, the longer estered deca is going to cause more issues because it takes longer to clear. same with tren E and ace ...

once shutdown - how long are you shut down. you may only run an 8 week cycle of deca - but in reality you've got another 5-7 weeks before it clears.
as compared to an 8 week cycle of npp -- which only takes about 14 days to clear. (my numbers may be a little off, but the dramatic difference between the two is still the same).

as a general rule, sespress, I totally agree with you on the back to back cycles. most people do the "minimum" on PCT time, see their results fading quickly(because they REALLY don't know how to eat and train in the first place) and then jump right back on. not to mention -- the majority never got base line bloods run in the first place and have no idea what their starting point was. all they know is they feel like **** - and their results are fading.

So I've been wondering even with a base line blood test how long until you can test again and get accurate results? Testing on PCT isn't going to do much for you and I've been told 12 weeks minimum after PCT to get accurate results on test numbers. So is there a way to determine if you need to continue your clomid? What do you base that on?

I did an 8 week andro cycle and went though 4 weeks of PCT. That ended, a few weeks ago (I need to check through calendar I have it all jotted down). I feel fine, no rebound estrogen type sides, labido is good, so I figure I've had success with it. I lost some weight, but I'm also still cutting fat, I discontinued MK677 (so minus some water weight) and my strength is as it was. I figure success! But maybe not. If I ran bloods right after PCT it would have shown great test levels, and that would have been ?bs. But in 12 weeks if I only get say 75% of my pre run numbers back... Then you know, but would be great if it could have been known before hand and run 2-4 weeks more PCT.

So I guess one bases PCT time on a formula of how long the cycle was, How long the compunds take to clear and then simply.... What, how you feel? If you've lost labido and it's not back 2 weeks after PCT and/or you're feeling estrogen sides then you hop back on the meds obviously, but for... Some amount of time? Did that time frame of waiting screw you even more

This has been a confusing issue for me, I've not experienced any issues before so I don't have first hand knowledge on it and reading around you get incredibly strong opinions on the matter that sometimes don't jive with one another.

There's heated clomid vs Nova discussions, various opinions on how long to PCT for and the dose. It's all a mess. Doctors aren't much help, they look at you like a drug addict that's on hard narcotics and I've heard many people go through a few docs before clomid is even prescribed again, many just dismiss it.

I think you've got a good approach on factoring in how long these things stick around in your system. That's a variable you don't get feedback on much and it's likely a factor in a "permanent shutdown" situation. Which again I think is misuse and the medical community being unwilling to get involved in. Like a doctor that goes to amputation for a heroin addict wth trashed veins and infection, instead of trying to save the arm when it might be possible. They figure he'll do it again so why bother. I'm sure a perm situation can/does occur even with a reasoned approach just how often right?

 

[NewAgeMayan]

12 weeks after PCT for homeostatic bloods? Seems a bit excessive. What was that based on, do you know?

 

[sespress]

12 weeks after PCT for homeostatic bloods? Seems a bit excessive. What was that based on, do you know?

Just what I was told after suggesting 8 weeks in a thread I started to check up on my planned next cycle. I thought 8 was good. I was gonna get bloods and if the results looked good go ahead as planned immediately. I mean longer isn't going to be the issues, less than needed would be. No one refuted it so I stuck with that idea.

What do you suggest as a minium time for bloods? (Also this is what I mean, it's very difficult to find concensus on PCT issues, I respect all opinions but often find they differ a lot person to person). Often when I ask what's that based on i don't get a response back, or a very non scientific justification, and then another poster will throw in something else, so i kind of sit back and listen to all the various suggestions.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

For sure man, I totally understand the reasoning.

I guess Im more hey, lets try balance what is ideal (longer the better) with what is practical (gotta draw the line somewhere, I wanna get on with life).

I mean, lotsa guys run test boosters after PCT, should we wait til they clear the system?

I think wait just long enough for the heavy hitting drugs to clear of non-trivial traces. This will of course vary depending on what drugs you take that influence hormones; but generally, and I think clomid tends to be one of the potentially worse "lingerers", waiting 8wks after last clomid dose is a good amount.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

I should clarify: Im not endorsing an 8wk wait--bloodz---jump back on. When to jump back on is a different (but related) consideration.

 

[sespress]

I should clarify: Im not endorsing an 8wk wait--bloodz---jump back on. When to jump back on is a different (but related) consideration.

Totally fair, this is like a sprint. After this the next run I do isn't even planned yet. I ran the andros to see how I handled things, which was OK + some learning situations. Like keep a real AI on hand regardless of what it is, dose epi PWO, and tons of reading. But that was the plan. I figure it'll be mid January before I run this epistane Trest bit and then nothing until at least September 2017. I grabbed stuff to run... But I don't even know if I'll use it yet. Might let it sit, might use just what I got.

You know I think I'll still be waiting 12 weeks before starting again, but why not run bloods at 8 and 12, see if there's any difference and I'll report on it. Not that my results will be a absolute guideline for others but it may be interesting to find out even if it's basically the same numbers.

Just out of curiosity how long do you typically wait between cycles (after PCT)?

 

[ChocolateClen]

Length of your cycle = time off after PCT. some people do Cycle length + PCT length = time off

So if you ran for 16 weeks, you'd PCT then take either 16 or 20ish weeks off. This obviously gets messed with and some take more time off and some less but this is the norm I've found

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Totally fair, this is like a sprint. After this the next run I do isn't even planned yet. I ran the andros to see how I handled things, which was OK + some learning situations. Like keep a real AI on hand regardless of what it is, dose epi PWO, and tons of reading. But that was the plan. I figure it'll be mid January before I run this epistane Trest bit and then nothing until at least September 2017. I grabbed stuff to run... But I don't even know if I'll use it yet. Might let it sit, might use just what I got.

You know I think I'll still be waiting 12 weeks before starting again, but why not run bloods at 8 and 12, see if there's any difference and I'll report on it. Not that my results will be a absolute guideline for others but it may be interesting to find out even if it's basically the same numbers.

If you are prepared to get those two sets of bloods done then sweet. If the argument became "which ones are most important in this instance, the 8 or 12?" well its possible we are doing nothing more than quibbling.

Just out of curiosity how long do you typically wait between cycles (after PCT)?

Theres the ideal....and then what I actually do lol

As far as Im concerned one of the biggest health concerns other than HPTA function is lipids. Most guys rarely bother with bloods at all, how can they properly ascertain over the course of the year just how much time has been spent living with unhealthy lipid values?

I dont/didnt follow the general Time Off Maxim, but then I am/was getting regular lipid levels checked.

Optimal, "low health risk" cycling would IMO have you doing 2 cycles per year, or one every 10mnths depending on cycle duration. I think something like this strikes a decent balance between cycling as often as you can (high risk high frequency cycling) and cycling once every 2+ years (low risk low frequency cycling).

 

[sespress]

If you are prepared to get those two sets of bloods done then sweet. If the argument became "which ones are most important in this instance, the 8 or 12?" well its possible we are doing nothing more than quibbling.



Theres the ideal....and then what I actually do lol

As far as Im concerned one of the biggest health concerns other than HPTA function is lipids. Most guys rarely bother with bloods at all, how can they properly ascertain over the course of the year just how much time has been spent living with unhealthy lipid values?

I dont/didnt follow the general Time Off Maxim, but then I am/was getting regular lipid levels checked.

Optimal, "low health risk" cycling would IMO have you doing 2 cycles per year, or one every 10mnths depending on cycle duration. I think something like this strikes a decent balance between cycling as often as you can (high risk high frequency cycling) and cycling once every 2+ years (low risk low frequency cycling).

Ah the lipids. There's something about vascular damage I was reading on this. So various AAS effect them, some worse than others and duration looked like it was is a big factor. It didn't seem to be linear, like art 8 weeks it starts getting hairy. Is there anything one can do while on cycle to help that? Fish oil and whatnot is listed but... Is that a glucosamine kind of thing? Where the returns are marginal at best in most people?

 

[BloodManor]

Yeah who needs pct, that sh&ts over rated

It actually is

 

[sespress]

It actually is

Joking??

 

[hardknock]

Honestly at the end of the day, I either die today or I die tomorrow. Basically how I look at it, and I'll be DAMNED if I die skinny and weak. I'd rather die early jacked, tan, and juicy as F*ck than die when I'm 90 stuck in a nursing home cause I'm old and frail

The only issue with that is the way the world is now, a terminal illness will force you to die frail regardless. Its about where your mind is when you die. Do you die while allowing death to take your life while you sulk in your own pity or do you die with no fear and enjoy your last days...thats all that matters. Frail or swole isnt even a factor.

 

[kisaj]

People talk a big game when they aren't dying.

 

[justhere4comm]

People talk a big game when they aren't dying.

Truth. I watched my parents die of cancer. Wish I knew about SARMS and MK677 then. May have helped. Wouldn't have hurt. IMHO.

My dad was skin and bone.

Plus. Why so slow with medical Mary Jane.

Quality of life in death matters too. That said. I'm not going out that way.

 

[whiteboystomp]

If you are prepared to get those two sets of bloods done then sweet. If the argument became "which ones are most important in this instance, the 8 or 12?" well its possible we are doing nothing more than quibbling.



Theres the ideal....and then what I actually do lol

As far as Im concerned one of the biggest health concerns other than HPTA function is lipids. Most guys rarely bother with bloods at all, how can they properly ascertain over the course of the year just how much time has been spent living with unhealthy lipid values?

I dont/didnt follow the general Time Off Maxim, but then I am/was getting regular lipid levels checked.

Optimal, "low health risk" cycling would IMO have you doing 2 cycles per year, or one every 10mnths depending on cycle duration. I think something like this strikes a decent balance between cycling as often as you can (high risk high frequency cycling) and cycling once every 2+ years (low risk low frequency cycling).

your timing plan on the bloods is a great thing - in my eyes. i don't pct - i blast and cruise, but ---I run bloods pre-cycle, mid-cycle (maybe more depending on length of cycle), 5-7 weeks into cruise, and then repeat. this all goes towards what you said about lipids, and i mentioned in previous post. i run bloods often to make sure everything stays in check. there is a big difference to feeling like **** on a specific cycle - and something actually being wrong, as well as feeling great, and yet lipids have gone to ****. bloods will tell you everything. most people go off how they feel - and that's ****ed up. i get it -- but its ****ed up.

as sespress said in another post - different compounds effect lipds differently. deca is different from tren - and eq is different than all of them. Superdrol is a real mother ****er on lipids - probably the worst. Eq can be hell on hematocrit levels - requiring giving blood every 4-6 weeks while on cycle, and in some cases, from my own experience - needing them to pull double reds in order to get it in check. dangerous ****, fellas.

you gotta be smart about this stuff. i mean seriously -- the kiddy game is down the ****ing road when it comes to AAS - this is big boy ****. because it can really **** you up.don't be stupid. regular blood work is CRITICAL to this operation. it tells me exactly what needs to be done.

 

[whiteboystomp]

Ah the lipids. There's something about vascular damage I was reading on this. So various AAS effect them, some worse than others and duration looked like it was is a big factor. It didn't seem to be linear, like art 8 weeks it starts getting hairy. Is there anything one can do while on cycle to help that? Fish oil and whatnot is listed but... Is that a glucosamine kind of thing? Where the returns are marginal at best in most people?

not sure what the protocol on this forum is in regard to recommending product - but, I use Cycle Assist by CEL, great profile and cost effect in comparison to others. And I run Liv52 DS for extra liver support.

also - sespress - in re-reading your posts, you are referring to andro, epistane,trest, etc ... all ph's, and all orals. different beast as to what I am generally referring to. ive done ph's before - but don't anymore (except superdrol). by nature they are very hard on your system (don't give a **** what anyone says), make you feel like ****, and wreak havoc on lipids. most of the time people don't run a test base - the ph shuts them down, and they feel like ****. there is a reason you need test in your system - if nothing more than maintain libido and general sense of well being. the extreme lethargy that usually occurs from such compounds is because of the stress on the liver its causing. same thing happens to me with oral Sdrol, thus I switch to injectable sdrol. I don't have near the sides from that. dbol makes me feel good - anavar neither here nor there. as a general rule all orals give me major back pumps - but hey cant win'em all, ya know, lol.

pct is/would be different - and would say minimal is needed with ph's due to the very very short half life of the compound/s - and the short duration of cycle (typically 4-6 weeks). to be frank -- I probably wouldn't even **** with a pct on a 4 week ph run.

off topic -- other than for legal reasons -- I don't understand why people even **** with ph's (given the risk/reward health factors). hope that statement doesn't get me banned...lol... but im just saying.

if we want to go into pct for heavy duty lengthy cycle shutdown, scientifically (not just bro science anecdotal bull****)shown to be effective - I have some input, but doesn't seem like we are in that realm in this discussion (?)

 

[kisaj]

Truth. I watched my parents die of cancer. Wish I knew about SARMS and MK677 then. May have helped. Wouldn't have hurt. IMHO.

My dad was skin and bone.

Plus. Why so slow with medical Mary Jane.

Quality of life in death matters too. That said. I'm not going out that way.

Ignorance. If anyone saw what a dramatic, and I cannot emphasize the word dramatic enough (the irony ) that MMJ has in a persons life when in any sort of debilitating pain and suffering, it is criminal to not allow it. There is an overwhelming amount of anecdotal evidence by those suffering how much better it works than the BS being pushed by by pharma. They actually get to live a life.

But I digress. I've experienced too much death in my life to ever take it lightly and when I hear about people not caring, it makes me cringe because it tells me they have no experience or understanding of it.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Ah the lipids. There's something about vascular damage I was reading on this. So various AAS effect them, some worse than others and duration looked like it was is a big factor. It didn't seem to be linear, like art 8 weeks it starts getting hairy. Is there anything one can do while on cycle to help that? Fish oil and whatnot is listed but... Is that a glucosamine kind of thing? Where the returns are marginal at best in most people?

as sespress said in another post - different compounds effect lipds differently. deca is different from tren - and eq is different than all of them. Superdrol is a real mother ****er on lipids - probably the worst. Eq can be hell on hematocrit levels - requiring giving blood every 4-6 weeks while on cycle, and in some cases, from my own experience - needing them to pull double reds in order to get it in check. dangerous ****, fellas.

Yeah there are certainly compounds that are generally considered high-impact on some biological parameter, moreso than others.

But, one thing you learn quickly perusing these forums is to not take any generalised effects/impacts for granted. What I mean is, just cos studies have shown that compound X has negligible affect on lipids, or lh/fsh, or whatever...doesnt necessarily entail you are good to go.

Too many variables in the messy real world. And, people will scoff "why run bloods so often...why PCT with a SERM after running X..." meh I wear a seatbelt whether Im driving a 5min journey or 5hr.

 

[whiteboystomp]

Yeah there are certainly compounds that are generally considered high-impact on some biological parameter, moreso than others.

But, one thing you learn quickly perusing these forums is to not take any generalised effects/impacts for granted. What I mean is, just cos studies have shown that compound X has negligible affect on lipids, or lh/fsh, or whatever...doesnt necessarily entail you are good to go.

Too many variables in the messy real world. And, people will scoff "why run bloods so often...why PCT with a SERM after running X..." meh I wear a seatbelt whether Im driving a 5min journey or 5hr.

totally agree ... I refer to all of this by saying: there are some very vague generalized principles/rules that apply to the masses - otherwise, altering your hormonal balance is extremely individualized, whereas what works for one might not work for anyone else. and what works for everyone else - might not work for you. every single person, and how things effect them, is different.

 

[hardknock]

your timing plan on the bloods is a great thing - in my eyes. i don't pct - i blast and cruise, but ---I run bloods pre-cycle, mid-cycle (maybe more depending on length of cycle), 5-7 weeks into cruise, and then repeat. this all goes towards what you said about lipids, and i mentioned in previous post. i run bloods often to make sure everything stays in check. there is a big difference to feeling like **** on a specific cycle - and something actually being wrong, as well as feeling great, and yet lipids have gone to ****. bloods will tell you everything. most people go off how they feel - and that's ****ed up. i get it -- but its ****ed up.

as sespress said in another post - different compounds effect lipds differently. deca is different from tren - and eq is different than all of them. Superdrol is a real mother ****er on lipids - probably the worst. Eq can be hell on hematocrit levels - requiring giving blood every 4-6 weeks while on cycle, and in some cases, from my own experience - needing them to pull double reds in order to get it in check. dangerous ****, fellas.

you gotta be smart about this stuff. i mean seriously -- the kiddy game is down the ****ing road when it comes to AAS - this is big boy ****. because it can really **** you up.don't be stupid. regular blood work is CRITICAL to this operation. it tells me exactly what needs to be done.

Exactly. Many believe taking aas at 30+ should be approached the same as taking when you're 24 but imo as you stated as we age we should increase our in depth understanding of how our bodies react to aas. At age 25 I was gun-ho and reckless. At 40 I wouldn't think of using aas unless I could afford appropriate blood work and have an understanding of how each marker affects me.

 

[sespress]

Exactly. Many believe taking aas at 30+ should be approached the same as taking when you're 24 but imo as you stated as we age we should increase our in depth understanding of how our bodies react to aas. At age 25 I was gun-ho and reckless. At 40 I wouldn't think of using aas unless I could afford appropriate blood work and have an understanding of how each marker affects me.

That's a reasoned approach for sure. You can get away with stuff at 24 that can't be gotten away with even 10 years later as easily and 10 more years you have to think about how the body doesn't repair as well anymore and lipids may already be bad in your genetics and you won't know until then. There is a lot of BAD advice I've been given and a lot of good I try to question everything and take nothing for granted but you can still mess up if not getting blood work done.

Reminds me to get mine run shortly to see how last PCT went!

 

[Bestia956]

Thoughts on this?

Invalid Link Removed

Im going to die some day but ain't going to be for using steroids

 

[Outofbody]

Lol wait til you guize in your 40s and 50s, youll be singing a different tune.

When death is another 40+ years away, no fuks are given

When youre out of youre 30s and realise youre statistically on the back nine, your life philosophy changes

I know this is a somewhat old post but I'm in my 40s now and still safely do a couple of cycles a year while also cruising on TRT and keeping all of my lab values in check. IE: I am very healthy.

Not sure what's so wrong with the responsible use of AAS even into 40/50s. Quick answer: nothing

If anything, I know SO much more now, and am far more efficient/safe with my training, supplementation and AAS use.

 

[kenpoengineer]

This is a great thread to advertise our AM sponsor offering TRT services:

Invalid Link Removed

 

[Power-Lift]

Like Kenpo said earlier, you get our age (50's) you look at things differently.
Working on the outside (muscles for show) changes to working on your insides (healthy organs) still while being jacked, and doing some test cycles (or TRT).
You can have both, if done properly.

 

[Outofbody]

Like Kenpo said earlier, you get our age (50's) you look at things differently.
Working on the outside (muscles for show) changes to working on your insides (healthy organs) still while being jacked, and doing some test cycles (or TRT).
You can have both, if done properly.

I’m still enjoying tren from time to time, but I’m one of the few who doesn’t get bad sides from it