brooklynn
New member
thanks running ignit3 i love it
Diesel test hardcore vs. Test1fy
- Thread starter BillyD
- Start date
thanks running ignit3 i love it
Jiigzz
Legend
I think what is needed is signatures for mobile, although that is hard to do. Ive been here for a while and forget/ dont know who is a rep vs who isnt unless I actively scan their profile or switch to webview, and even then the profile is limited to X amount of chars so you cant see the whole thing.
Its one reason I use the SNS logo as my avi so as to be more recognisable
210LBS
Well-known member
Yes! That's why I don't take any recommendations on here until I'm on my desktop computer.
NoAddedHmones
Well-known member
Haha, there are a select few here who have been with like 5 companies in the last year. Hell some rep for multiple companies selling the same Sh1t at the same time. What a joke.
malin
Active member
Yeah let's get it on , i would like to see how both products compare .
Woody
Well-known member
$52 x 4 = $208. Kinda expensive.
muscleupcrohn
Legend
Even then, there are still many other variables that could prevent a meaningful comparison. A one-subject, non-blinded "study" with no control isn't going to prove much.
CATdiesel76
Well-known member
Why not just have a blood work comparison. Blood work can be gotten for cheap online with next day labcorp results. If companies really wanted to go head to head that's what would be necessary. However I don't see this ever happening
muscleupcrohn
Legend
There are still many other variables that could prevent a meaningful comparison. A one-subject, non-blinded "study" with no control isn't going to prove much. Even actual, legitimate studies often aren't taken seriously if they are funded by someone with an interest, so imagine the doubts that will surely be present if a company pays for random people to "test" their products with no strict methodology, oversight, or even any way to tell if the results are valid ("subjects" not using anything else, labs taken at the same time or day, etc). If someone decides to do this themselves, they still have many variables to account for, some of which are essentially out of their control (and the may not even be aware of them), and, at best, you have a non-blinded, n=1 sample size with no control group. I don't see it "proving" or "solving" anything, and may even only serve to create more arguments and suspicion if funding is involved or suspected. It's one thing to have a sponsored log, it's another thing entirely to sponsor a product against competition and claim superiority; I fear it may open Pandora's Box.
sespress
Well-known member
Yeah dude I commend you for doing that. It helps to know. Also your a fount of actual research. You're always linking to 3rd party stuff. Good on ya
malin
Active member
Who said anything about conducting a study . People comper supplements on this forum all the time , most reps sanding potential customers to logs claiming effectiveness of the sad product (and those logs are far from properly conducted studies) .
I get why some companies might not like that idea but let's not get it twisted , it is not a study it is simply one guy ( we all trust ) runs a products and shares his opinion on them , that's that .
I get why some companies might not like that idea but let's not get it twisted , it is not a study it is simply one guy ( we all trust ) runs a products and shares his opinion on them , that's that .
muscleupcrohn
Legend
As long as it's only viewed as the results of a single person, then, yes, it can be of some value, but I fear that some people would view it as the "end-all" of comparisons (the impression I get from some people ITT), which is really isn't, at all. As I said, with only a n=1 sample (I know, it's not a study), it's not going to show all that much. An individual can respond well, or not well, to an ingredient or product, so if you only have a sample size of one subject to test it, the results can be completely skewed; think if you decided to do a one person "study/test" of creatine, and the one person happened to be a non-responder. Without a larger sample size, it would be incorrectly assumed that creatine doesn't work. Also, I have yet to see a sponsored supplement log that has the explicit goal of comparing a company's product directly to another company's product in an attempt to claim superiority. Most educated people around here realized that different things may work better for different people, so there may not even be one "definitive best" product in a given category for everyone. Just my $0.02.
rascal14
Well-known member
That's the only thing that's worth while. One or two guys trying each product and getting blood work is useless.
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
The reason there is never any blood work supplied by the companies - is because it wouldn't look that great. They also have Plausible Deniability - can't be accused of putting out a marginal product, if you didn't know it was marginal by actually testing it. You see it all the time on here - newbs think these things are the same as 750mg of test per week - blood work would surely take the wind out of a lot of sails.
All the excuses relating to this subject are exactly that: excuses. If a company had a product that actually kicked a$$ (without running Clomid along side) via blood work - they would have to be complete morons not to use it in the Marketing. 99.9% of the supplement buying public would lap that sh^t up.
It's only the 0.1% that would bust balls. But who care$, you just *know* Isatori made a killing because of their "studies" - 99.9% is a lot of buyers.
There's never blood work because if it was legit (no concurrent Clomid, or MK677 in the case of GH products) all you'd hear from prospective buyers is "That's it ???"
All the excuses relating to this subject are exactly that: excuses. If a company had a product that actually kicked a$$ (without running Clomid along side) via blood work - they would have to be complete morons not to use it in the Marketing. 99.9% of the supplement buying public would lap that sh^t up.
It's only the 0.1% that would bust balls. But who care$, you just *know* Isatori made a killing because of their "studies" - 99.9% is a lot of buyers.
There's never blood work because if it was legit (no concurrent Clomid, or MK677 in the case of GH products) all you'd hear from prospective buyers is "That's it ???"
CATdiesel76
Well-known member
Except There is no other way to really draw any conclusions. Placebo is so bad that everything else would be subjective. Of course a small sample size is not ideal but nothing is perfect. People on this board claim results from these test boosters bumping their test maybe 25% that people get putting their levels in the 1,500+ on supplemental testosterone. Logs and reviews are pretty damn useless.
I've been around a while and have read 1000's of logs of people raving about ingredients that have since proven to be dog ****.
Also, everyone craps on the idea of a person running blood work yet love companies who release blood work for two or three people that have used products.
If blood work shows that somebody's test hasn't been changed a bit or than an AI failed to lower estrogen than then definitely isn't useless information. Of course in a perfect world we could eliminate all variables, test flucations from sleep, stress, etc but this isn't a perfect world
muscleupcrohn
Legend
We all know that theses natural test boosters aren't going to increase testosterone levels to supraphysiological levels, and slight fluctuations or increases within the normal range aren't really going to do much, and if you're using it as a part of a PCT to get your test back up, I'm hoping you're not counting on a natty test booster to do the bulk of the lifting here. I hope that people here know that a natural test booster isn't going to provide anywhere near the same gains as actual gear. With that said, a good test booster, and there are several, can still provide some of the benefits commonly associated with increased testosterone levels, such as improved body composition, strength, endurance, libido, sense of wellbeing, etc. Also, many of these ingredients work via other MoAs than simply increasing testosterone levels, so a simple bloodwork reading may not paint a full picture. Ingredients like ashwagandha have been shown to improve muscular strength and mass, endurance, sexual function, and wellbeing. Tongkat ali has been shown to increase libido, forskolin has been shown to improve body composition, etc. We have actual studies, even placebo-controlled studies, showing this. Also, ashwagandha, forskolin, shilajit, etc have been shown to increase testosterone, not by earth-shattering amounts, but still.
rascal14
Well-known member
Like it's been said before, the increase from test boosters is not any larger than just the natural fluctuations throughout the day in most cases. I bet most of the time people get huge increases like that from a test booster is because they use it as a PCT and their body would most likely recover to those same levels without it. I think the only real use for a test booster would be for mood and libido. The bump in actual numbers isn't worth the price.
muscleupcrohn
Legend
I also hope that people aren't relying solely on a natural test booster to recover from an actual cycle of anabolics. Ingredients in these products can still improve strength/body composition/endurance, just not to nearly the same extent as gear, obviously.
rascal14
Well-known member
Yeah, but then again people will do crazy things just to "prove" the efficacy of their product. Lol
CATdiesel76
Well-known member
I agree 100%. And I agree blood work is flawed because of ingredients working through different pathways other than raising test/free test. However, my point was that logs are so completely unreliable 95% of the time that I feel bloodwork would be better indicator. Truth is there is no real good way to do it. I guess maybe bf calibration, 1rm strength, blood work, and maybe observations combined with a controlled diet, training regimen, and sleep schedule. But at that point it's a full blown study and won't ever happen.
I guess everyone just has to try the stuff themselves and form their own opinions
CATdiesel76
Well-known member
Years ago that was common. Plenty of companies claiming their natural pct could be used for superdrol/pheraplex/etc. it was wildly irresponsible.
muscleupcrohn
Legend
Well, there are studies on many of the ingredients that some test boosters use, and some of the high quality products use research-supported doses, which helps give you a better indication of if the product will work. Granted, ingredients interact with each other, and people respond differently, but having research supported ingredients and doses certainly helps a consumer feel confident about a product, and with good reason. Combine that with good user feedback and logs, and you can start to form an opinion on it you feel it's worth trying. Of course, from there, it's up to you do see what works for you and what you like best, but, without disclosing some the doses and the standardization to some extent, to help potential consumers research, etc, I feel it takes a lot more positive user feedback and logs to convince me it's worth trying, especially if there are options out there that do disclose doses and standardization. With that said, a product can certainly be effective with a massive prop-blend, but I'd have to see much, much more feedback on it, since I can't check if the ingredients/standardization/doses have already been shown to be effective in studies. That's just my $0.02, and everyone is entitled to their own.
muscleupcrohn
Legend
Oh, I know that it was common, and I'm sure plenty of mainstream consumers, often misled by store employees and/or gym bros, still do this, but I think this forum does a pretty good job of telling people what to expect, and how to do a proper PCT.
muscleupcrohn
Legend
We are still sort of helping, in a tangential way, by telling people what to actually expect from any test booster. Diesel Test may be a fantastic product, and it does have good user feedback, but it's label is such that you really have to try it to say much of anything about it, where Testify is formulated in such a way that, even without trying it, you can see that it has many research supported ingredients and doses, as confirmed by actual studies with far better methodologies and controlling of variables than the vast majority of us are doing here, and it also has good user feedback. It's two differing methods of formulation and labeling, and both methods an yield effective products.
malin
Active member
So is every log and review , yet that whole forum is full of them .
I don't really care either way and it would not change my buying habits , but at least we would have a bit of friendly competition .
And again people comper different products all the time on this board , and nobody is telling them that their opinion is meaningless.
rascal14
Well-known member
What are you talking about? A log and review has zero validity. Anyone can make that up.
rascal14
Well-known member
Can help increase energy, mood, libido. All things which can be affected on a caloric deficit. And he specifically asked about the comparison between the two test boosting product. If anything you're being the least helpful to him by saying a test booster is not useful. Atleast everyone else is debating the actual question.
rascal14
Well-known member
Not sure if validity is the right word but you get the point.
justhere4comm
Banned
Not helpful? Scratches head. Ok. Carry on.
rascal14
Well-known member
When you say people talking about the actual question he asked is not helpful, then that makes your posts even less helpful.
muscleupcrohn
Legend
A "test-booster" may help during a cut because some test boosters do more than simply increase testosterone levels within the normal range. For example, ashwagandha has been shown to increase muscle mass and strength, as well as reduce body fat percent:
Invalid Link Removed
as well as endurance (increased endurance during a cut can be useful) and quality of life (always good, especially during a cut):
Invalid Link Removed
and has also been shown to reduce food cravings and improve eating behavior (and reduce weight) in subjects with chronic stress, which I think can be applicable to dieting/cutting:
Invalid Link Removed
Additionally, besides improving libido, tongkat ali has been shown to improve hormone balance and help manage stress:
Invalid Link Removed
That's just two ingredients, but I'd say that they can both be quite useful during a cut.
Edit: To help answer OP's question, the above ingredients are some things that could be useful in a test-booster during a cut. I know that Testify uses quality extracts of both of these, so I feel that it can be useful for you during a cut. I'm not saying that Diesel Test isn't a great product, or that it can't also help you, but I just can't tell by looking at the profile like I can by looking at Testify. Just my $0.02, as both products have good user feedback.
ucheoma
Active member
So much hypocrisy. Various reps are in on every t booster thread shilling their products with the same taglines..."tons of logs and reviews from people who loved the product, boosts libido, boosts free t, great for mood, tonnes of health benefits" all on the basis of anecdotal subjective chatter. The same people who are happy to push their products on the basis of this flimsy evidence throw up all kind of objections when asked to participate in informal bloodwork experiments. The truth of the matter is if a product worked to any meaningful degree you would consistently see evidence of this in before and after bloodwork even with other variables in play. Theres tonnes of posts of people doing before and after bloodwork on Clomid. We know it consistently works to boost test, regardless. All this lame talk about n=1, double blinded studies, no control etc is just a red herring to conceal the fact of weak ass products which aren't going to move the needle more than a few notches and in some cases, downwards!
I wouldn't want to risk exposing this either if I was a rep
I wouldn't want to risk exposing this either if I was a rep
rascal14
Well-known member
This makes zero sense.
rascal14
Well-known member
The talk of studies is because people are saying there should be blood tests to prove the better product. No rep besides Chuck wanted blood tests, which should tell you something of what he actually knows.
muscleupcrohn
Legend
Or he could benefit from the benefits that some test-boosters can provide BESIDES slight increases in testosterone, such as those mentioned and referenced in my above post.
I've said multiple times that I don't even think the primary benefit of these "test-boosters" is going to be increasing testosterone within already normal levels, hence why the bloodwork wouldn't provide the best picture of how effective these products are and what benefits they can potentially provide. Having random forum members run bloodwork raises a slew of problems, both due to the inherent fluctuations of testosterone levels, variables that may not be considered or controlled properly, and even different labs being used, etc. And, at the end of the day, none of these products are going to increase testosterone to supraphysiological levels, so these slight increases aren't going to mean that much. As I've said many times, ingredients in some test boosters work via different MoAs than simply increasing testosterone, and it is unwise and short-sighted to ignore this fact... Hell, I just posted several links to studies with much better methodology than what we'd be doing here showing potential benefits, and that's only for two ingredients. Coincidentally, some of them DID do bloodwork.
muscleupcrohn
Legend
Again, I stated that ingredients such as ashwagandha and tongkat ali can have potential benefits during a cut, and referenced several studies showing this. Some of these benefits do pertain to more than just mood/libido, including strength, endurance, and body composition. Testify has both of these ingredients, and quality extracts of both, so therefore CAN potentially benefit him during a cut. Does that help answer his question?
ucheoma
Active member
Or he could benefit from the benefits that some test-boosters can provide BESIDES slight increases in testosterone, such as those mentioned and referenced in my above post.
I've said multiple times that I don't even think the primary benefit of these "test-boosters" is going to be increasing testosterone within already normal levels, hence why the bloodwork wouldn't provide the best picture of how effective these products are and what benefits they can potentially provide. Having random forum members run bloodwork raises a slew of problems, both due to the inherent fluctuations of testosterone levels, variables that may not be considered or controlled properly, and even different labs being used, etc. And, at the end of the day, none of these products are going to increase testosterone to supraphysiological levels, so these slight increases aren't going to mean that much. As I've said many times, ingredients in some test boosters work via different MoAs than simply increasing testosterone, and it is unwise and short-sighted to ignore this fact... Hell, I just posted several links to studies with much better methodology than what we'd be doing here showing potential benefits, and that's only for two ingredients. Coincidentally, some of them DID do bloodwork.
Those studies did not use your products right? You claim to have x,y, z in your product. We all know you cant trust what you see on a label. Sourcing, standardization, extraction, quality etc we all know varies greatly from product to product and in effectiveness.
muscleupcrohn
Legend
If that is the case, and you inherently can't trust what's on the label and the company, then wouldn't there also be the potential issue of spiking or adding ingredients that aren't disclosed on the label, which could lead to increased testosterone levels, but come with unintended side-effects and consequences down the road? As for the sake of this discussion, doesn't Testify use KSM-66 and LJ100? Those are top-quality extracts form a very reputable company...
malin
Active member
Agreed , no one said that little compersion between two products would hold more water then any other log on this site , you guys trying to make it a ,, study " or some $hit , thers no need to complicate that thing .
muscleupcrohn
Legend
No, there isn't a need to complicate it, but it appears as if some people are thinking that one person doing bloodwork between two products will be THE comparison, or the be-all-end-all means of comparison, which I was saying it would not be. Granted, it could be useful information, as can a log, but it isn't THE comparison or tool for consumers, it's A comparison or tool for consumers.
rascal14
Well-known member
You're right, I couldn't find where I thought he said that, I must've gotten confused.
But there is still no rep I can find suggesting blood work is the answer.
bb333
Well-known member
I agree 100%!
What does it mean? post blood tests after using clomid, and declare, yes, the product X it works!
But what is the point?
As well as people who use the Tren, increases muscle mass, then use an OTC product, and says, "yes, they are increased muscle mass ..."
but what sense does all this ???
the piss connection here!
ucheoma
Active member
KSM-66 as a cortisol inhibitor yes, although again there are effective but cheaper Ash alternatives out there. Main thing to look for is the Withalonides standardisation. This hyping of patented products is just another marketing ploy. In most cases the studies on these patented products are sponsored
As for LJ100. Just another ploy. We know you have to take extremely high doses to see noticeable increases in test levels which makes it uneconomic in my view if your aim is to boost test. Your product has LJ (not LJ100) with no information whatsoever on the eurycomanane content which is the ingredient largely responsible for the libido/test boosting properties. LJ100 has a relatively small EURYCOMANANE content. Point in case the same company that put LJ100 in Testify (@100mg per serving - no great shakes!) dropped it or it's latest PCT/Test boosting product. You can search this board for that company's explanation. It's very revealing and a lesson for customers not to be caught up in marketing hype
I'm becoming increasingly sceptical of these multi-ingredient test boosting products. Somewhere down the line they skimp on quality. and add fillers. More effective I'm thinking to start buying a few high quality well-dosed single ingredients from reputable suppliers and rotate as appropriate. 2-3 ingredients at a time. That way you know what actually works for you.
sespress
Well-known member
There are prescription drugs that are only 30% more effective than placebo. I always find that interesting. Mind over matter. If you think it's awesome you might be psyching yourself into a feeling of effectiveness. I've got supps that I like but if someone was to tell me tomorrow they were sugar... Other than stim effects (which I don't think placebo effect would be valid on) if you can't "feel" the compound you very well might be psyched up and working out harder or anything else subconsciously that could boost effects.
And like you said a sample of 1 isn't a sample. This is a good discussion for sure.
sespress
Well-known member
OL does seem pretty good at linking to studies, real ones (the ones I've read anyways, haven't bothered to look at them all).
To the OP. I get a "kick" from the truck fuel that I don't get from testify. I will say they both will tear up your stomach if your on empty. Diesel especially is a bit harsh. Also Diesel very strongly suggests an interesting dose schedule they claim to really need to stick to. I don't know if that's a safety warning as much as it's because the "kick" goes away after a while. They even say that you should discontinue for a while and go back if this happens. So the product might be effective simply because of the "kick". I personally thought it was giving me more stamina, but I ended up giving it up and trying testify because of the stomach bit. I am also one of those people that has a finicky gut, so might just be me!
I think the end game is you have to try it and be critical of the effects it has (perceived positive and negative). This is a great discussion, if a bit sidetracked.
For instance I love the PWO mesomorph, but 10 minutes into it I end up in the gym bathroom for the remainder of the trip. Same with tr1umph. So it's effective at weight loss from water for me only lol. If I had to pick between the two and my stomach was not an issue I'd pick Diesel, for the kick, whatever it's doing to my test is irrelevant to me. I'm getting a better feeling workout, if that's my brain psyching me out so what!