SoupNaziNazi
Active member
Interested in an over the counter T booster for my dad. Something that won't break the bank. Any suggestions/personal experiences is greatly welcome
Test booster for mid 50s
- Thread starter SoupNaziNazi
- Start date
ws65
Member
I am 52...the things that have helped me are the following:
KSM-66
Shilajit
HGW standardized to 50% icariin
Tongkat Ali (I have had good success with OL LJ100, Tonvara, and Alivel 3x100)
Butea Superba (Barlowe's)
Astragulus
Now, having said that, I have four bottles of M-Test that I just ordered which has a lot of what I just listed but some I didn't. I said to myself, finally, something that has a lot of what I want in one bottle. What I will do is that if I feel M-Test is lacking in any areas, I have the individual components to bring it up to what I want (there may be zero that I have to do...we will see). I have also ordered a couple bottles of OL K1ng's Blood...I plan on doing two bottles of M-Test, followed by one bottle of the K1ng's Blood, rinse, repeat. Danes thebigt and some others will have some good info for you as well.
KSM-66
Shilajit
HGW standardized to 50% icariin
Tongkat Ali (I have had good success with OL LJ100, Tonvara, and Alivel 3x100)
Butea Superba (Barlowe's)
Astragulus
Now, having said that, I have four bottles of M-Test that I just ordered which has a lot of what I just listed but some I didn't. I said to myself, finally, something that has a lot of what I want in one bottle. What I will do is that if I feel M-Test is lacking in any areas, I have the individual components to bring it up to what I want (there may be zero that I have to do...we will see). I have also ordered a couple bottles of OL K1ng's Blood...I plan on doing two bottles of M-Test, followed by one bottle of the K1ng's Blood, rinse, repeat. Danes thebigt and some others will have some good info for you as well.
john.patterson
Well-known member
I would second the recommendation for Alphamax XT. It contains a powerful natural test boosting profile including Urtica Dioica, Mucuna Pruriens, and Longjack - which are three highly studied and tested ingredients for increasing natural test. Alphamax XT also contains a natural AI, DHAA, which can help limit cortisol and estrogen production while the other ingredients work to boost test. It also contains Forskolin, which is studied to improve body composition (fat loss and muscle gain); and Ashwagandha, which can be beneficial for reducing stress and improving recovery.
Alphamax XT is a very complete product with a comprehensive profile. It has been getting great feedback on the forums, and users are having great results and seeing it work well.
What are your dad's goals? Does he lift weights and exercise regularly? Is he looking to increase muscle mass, or just have a higher libido? Also, has he gotten blood work done or any had any signs/feedback of low t?
john.patterson
Well-known member
edit.
slickwillie
Member
Over the counter test boosters won't break the bank, but they are a waste of money. Spend a couple of hundred dollars on some lab work to get a baseline on hormone levels (test, free test, estradiol, etc.). Then try ANY over the counter test "booster" for 60 days and get follow up lab work. In my experience any increase in test is insignificant at best. Any benefit is likely psychological -- placebo effect. I would guess that most folks using OTC test boosters have no clue what their hormone levels are.
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
^^^ Yeah, at 50, he can EASILY get TRT. With insurance it's cheap as dirt - even without it's really affordable.
Now that said, if he wants to try the "It just comes from Amazon in 2 days" route - I would start at the most affordable level and only move up in dollars if it doesn't "work". I believe Hyde had success with ~2g/Day of Bulk 100:1 Long Jack in the quality of life department. I'd throw in some cheap Stinging Nettle Root Extract as well, Swanson's has one (combo root and leaf).
You only get a couple hundred points max from this stuff - but depending on how low he is, that may be the difference between feeling like crap, and feeling ok. But again, at 50, I'd get my T levels checked and look at TRT if hypo.
Now that said, if he wants to try the "It just comes from Amazon in 2 days" route - I would start at the most affordable level and only move up in dollars if it doesn't "work". I believe Hyde had success with ~2g/Day of Bulk 100:1 Long Jack in the quality of life department. I'd throw in some cheap Stinging Nettle Root Extract as well, Swanson's has one (combo root and leaf).
You only get a couple hundred points max from this stuff - but depending on how low he is, that may be the difference between feeling like crap, and feeling ok. But again, at 50, I'd get my T levels checked and look at TRT if hypo.
cheftepesh1
Well-known member
41 here and running 
mtest with some good results. Especially with all the sales it's extremely affordable. Check out nutraplanet.
mtest with some good results. Especially with all the sales it's extremely affordable. Check out nutraplanet.
cubsfan815
Well-known member
I think we need to get away from the term test booster. The new products like Alphamax XT, M-Test, Test1fy, etc are much broader. With that said though, it's not fair to compare them to TRT, PH, etc.
I'm 38 and have ran Alphamax XT plenty of times. The ashwagandha helps keep me feeling calm and in good mood. The DHAA and F95 help drop body fat. The 3,4-Divanil, L-Dopa, and Tongkat Ali keep my libido up and refractory period down which is great at 38. If an OTC can help me feel better, boost libido, drop weight, sleep better etc that's a win.
I'm 38 and have ran Alphamax XT plenty of times. The ashwagandha helps keep me feeling calm and in good mood. The DHAA and F95 help drop body fat. The 3,4-Divanil, L-Dopa, and Tongkat Ali keep my libido up and refractory period down which is great at 38. If an OTC can help me feel better, boost libido, drop weight, sleep better etc that's a win.
SoupNaziNazi
Active member
Thanks for the replies fellas. He does work out and is mostly looking for all the positive effects of higher T. Kinda broad but I'd say leaning towards gains the most if I had to pinpoint
ELROCK
Well-known member
Well then he will be disappointed if he is looking for "gains" from a test booster product. They are good for a number of things, but gains are not one of them. Please don't listen to the company reps telling you about gains from their test booster product.
thebigt
Legend
i'm 58, I've been using test boosters for a little over 10 years...currently i'm using m-test [on week 3], m-test is already at the top of my list of favorite test boosters. m-test won't break the bank, it can be found for around $30...I highly recommend this product, and the price is very reasonable, imo!!!
feel free to pm me if you want to talk more on the subject...
thebigt
Legend
nice...I will be trying kingsblood after my 2 bottles of m-test...but I have to say I am impressed so far with m-test...
thebigt
Legend
I see the foe's of test boosters have been here, lol....I also advocate your dad get a blood test to see where he stands, but don't think trt is a miracle cure...I was on trt for 7 years and it was a almost constant headache. every time I would get my level to where I felt good they were always wanting to reduce dose- don't forget that testosterone is classified on the same level as narcotics...finally I developed polycythemia and was taken off trt cold turkey.
test boosters have improved my quality of life immensely and I think your dad will enjoy the effects also.
ws65
Member
I too was on TRT and it didn't help me that much believe it or not....didn't even get 100 points over my base; now granted, they weren't pinning me, just the gel stuff. That was about 10 years ago and was on it for about a year or a bit more. Ditched that crap as it wasn't helping. Then came here. Started asking about what I should do. The usual answers came in...get your levels checked, already knew I was on the low end from testing before...then the really usual answers came in..."TRT bro, that's the only way"
What helped was me just losing weight and exercising/lifting heavy. I cannot tell you how much that helped because not only did my physical appearance get better, my mind got a lot better...and we all know the mind is a very powerful thing.
I then started researching natural things to help me get back my libido and sex drive. Found the stuff I listed above...I take them all together and it works for me, and works well. I have no idea what my test levels are and frankly I don't care. I feel good and look good and that's what matters to me.
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
I probably wouldn't judge TRT effectiveness based on a sh^tty doctor who scripted you Gel. We pretty much nailed down in another thread, where users reported their actual blood work numbers, that you get about a 100-200 point increase in Total, a possible nice jump in Free, and "Feel God/Libido" boosts. If you're not too low, this can push you into "feel good" range. But the 'Evangelists' need to mellow out on the claims, just like they think the 'foes' need to do about the detractors. I'm in the middle.
ucheoma
Active member
The "foes" comprise a significant number of people who use, continue to use "test boosters" and share their experiences some of which I appreciate may be inconvenient for the manufacturers and reps. I would class this as invaluable 'user/customer feedback'. Its refreshing the narrative around "test boosters" is starting to get more measured, realistic and balanced, at least on this board..
Agree with what another poster has said exercise, diet, and managing your weight will do 99% more than any test booster to optimise your T-levels. Add into the mix Sleep! Most of the perceived additional feel good factor from t boosters aside possibly from libido bumps would largely in my experience be placebo and improvement would be more attributable to the aforementioned factors.
But hey, what do you know one of those foes has just placed an order of M-Test + epiplex, following purchase of a bottle of Kings Blood (which I'm still waiting to arrive). I put my money where my mouth so feel quite entitled to share my unbiased and unsponsored opinions
Agree with what another poster has said exercise, diet, and managing your weight will do 99% more than any test booster to optimise your T-levels. Add into the mix Sleep! Most of the perceived additional feel good factor from t boosters aside possibly from libido bumps would largely in my experience be placebo and improvement would be more attributable to the aforementioned factors.
But hey, what do you know one of those foes has just placed an order of M-Test + epiplex, following purchase of a bottle of Kings Blood (which I'm still waiting to arrive). I put my money where my mouth so feel quite entitled to share my unbiased and unsponsored opinions
ws65
Member
Bought the same during Thanksgiving sales
Jiigzz
Legend
I think some people forget that "Test Boosters" are marketed that way for a reason and that it makes sense to do this based on the fact it is an established category whether you agree with it or not.
I don't think you will find many reps arguing the fact that he will make impressive gains, have TRT like results or anything like that, but rather point out the things you may expect to "feel", like increased libido, mood, sleep and improve overall quality of life. Sure, it's not a "cure", but it is something. It could make the difference between getting to the gym or not, feeling good during the day or not, and other things like that.
Again, you may not agree with the marketing, but it is what it is. Instead, focus on the product for what it will actually provide and you may find that it works better in that regard than you thought.
Oh. and M Test is stellar
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I don't think you will find many reps arguing the fact that he will make impressive gains, have TRT like results or anything like that, but rather point out the things you may expect to "feel", like increased libido, mood, sleep and improve overall quality of life. Sure, it's not a "cure", but it is something. It could make the difference between getting to the gym or not, feeling good during the day or not, and other things like that.
Again, you may not agree with the marketing, but it is what it is. Instead, focus on the product for what it will actually provide and you may find that it works better in that regard than you thought.
Oh. and M Test is stellar
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Ricky10
Well-known member
The natural anti-estrogen products out there can be more effective at raising test and producing positive body changes than many actual test boosters. For some reason; this market has some of the most potent extracts in my experience. Most test booster ingredients are adaptogens which are great, but they are what they are.
Having said that; the first time I ever tried a test booster, I felt like I was on a prohormone. Dramatic increased in strength, endurance, and size. Random people were coming up to me and saying that I looked huge. Since then, my body has built up somewhat of a tolerance and it will never be like the first time again..
Having said that; the first time I ever tried a test booster, I felt like I was on a prohormone. Dramatic increased in strength, endurance, and size. Random people were coming up to me and saying that I looked huge. Since then, my body has built up somewhat of a tolerance and it will never be like the first time again..
rtmilburn
Well-known member
I disagree I think people are too concerned with estrogen. And most if, not all, otc anti-e barely even effect E. Estrogen is a good thing, heck a great thing, it just needs be in normal range.
Ricky10
Well-known member
Agree completely, the natural anti estrogen/estrogen control supplements are not intended to annihilate estrogen which is why they are useful and in my experience highly effective at producing noticeable improvements in body composition and performance in and out of the gym. Myokem Alphadex happens to be the one that shined the most for me and people who have not given it a shot owe it to themselves to give it a run. Acacetin in itself is very impressive.
R1balla
Board Sponsor
A lot of people do not realize how much of a role estrogen plays in libido either. Good post
slickwillie
Member
A lot of people do not realize how much of a role estrogen plays in libido either. Good post
Yes, I found that out 4 years ago when I decided to try a test "booster" which also had some AI ingredients. My estrogen plummeted to the point that my sex drive went into the dumpster. Once I figured out what was going on I quit taking it. But it took several months after that to get back in the game. Until then my marriage suffered because my wife thought my needs were being met elsewhere. Just something to be aware of.
Volvo140G
Well-known member
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-deals/287514-november-sales-nutriverse.html
Up to 25% off on several of the aforementioned products at Nutriverse
Remember to stack code AM5 for another 5% off. Bogo deals on CEL M-Test too
Up to 25% off on several of the aforementioned products at Nutriverse
Remember to stack code AM5 for another 5% off. Bogo deals on CEL M-Test too
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
You ever order from Bad Monkey?
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
Long Jack, Nettle, Indole-3-Carbinol, and Grape Seed. Cheap, all but I3C available in bulk, and a good mix of scientific and anecdotal data on Free T and Estrogen. I would so go that route first and see how it treats the 'low normal' guys.
vujade
Well-known member
Nope. Just barlowes for Butea.
Ricky10
Well-known member
Well said man and congratulations on finding what work best for you. Also, you have picked some of the absolute best staple supplements around. They are more or less staples for myself as well. I have yet to try Butea Superba but I am going to order Evomuse Testruction very soon. Sounds like a fun supplement to run!
ws65
Member
I appreciate the props...Even when I do the M-Test I will still have my "staples" of herbs...Butea ain't going anywhere! The HGW will stay...TA will be added since I feel the dose in M-test needs a little boost...Astragalus is staying...and I'll probably keep taking the Trib Alatus since I have so much of it (got it real cheap on a sale from AS)...I will start up the cocoa again...maybe more...we'll see.
Edit: Hmmm...I'm wondering if the Divana-Plex in M-Test will counter the Butea? (Butea raises DHT which I wanted...not worried about balding as I have a full set of hair)
Edit: Hmmm...I'm wondering if the Divana-Plex in M-Test will counter the Butea? (Butea raises DHT which I wanted...not worried about balding as I have a full set of hair)
Ricky10
Well-known member
Yeah; In theory (studies) the Divana-Plex lowers DHT so I guess it may kind of even out with the Butea. It still kills me to see supplements that include ingredients that lower DHT and actually put it in the write up as that being a positive thing. Stinging Nettle will probably phase out a bit more as time goes on; much like Fenugreek (Testofen) is virtually non-existent in the top products.
I get the feeling that our supplement cabinets look quite similar...haha!
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
Stinging Nettle isn't so easily dismissed, IMO. The one rat study is only available for $$$, so you can't really see the details on 5-aR Inhibition. The abstract states:
The Examine write up points out a few other things:
That last part indicates that it does a pretty good job at keeping DHT circulating, by preventing it's binding by SHBG - And - 3,4-Div SOLO, doesn't contain Beta-Sitosterol or Scopoletin, so I can't see that solo lignan interfering with DHT via 5-aR, like *maybe* a full spectrum extract *might*.
You basically have to make the decision of if you think it's *possible* 5-aR interactions (shown in a test tube), are outweighed by it's pretty awesome looking Aromatase Inhibition and SHBG interfering capabilities.
I can tell you for sure that SN *definitely* helps with urine flow.
As an aside, the term "95% 3,4-Divanil" is always thought to be the purity or quantity in/of the extract... Uh, look at the data above - that "95%" is its displacement % of DHT, to SHBG - come on people!
Ricky10
Well-known member
It seems that there are studies showing various results with the different extracts. I have read on several sites that focus on the efficacy of specific test boosting ingredients that stinging nettle in any extract does not effect SHBG at all. Tongat Ali holds that title now and always has. I suspect this may be why Olympus Labs does not include stinging nettle in any of their products.
Bottom line; it is all up for speculation when it comes down to it. Most if not all studies with published results are just skewed in favor of whatever the the desired outcome is by the study sponsor etc.
Bottom line; it is all up for speculation when it comes down to it. Most if not all studies with published results are just skewed in favor of whatever the the desired outcome is by the study sponsor etc.
Jiigzz
Legend
If that was the case, any and all studies are inherently flawed. Bear in mind that studies are not conducted by sponsors, but rather by researchers.
In any case, data does exist for Stinging Nettle and SHBG interaction. Not sure how one could say no interaction ocurs when it has been demonstrated.
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
Not even close, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Science on my friend :thumbsup:
thebigt
Legend
m-test is treating me very well...results are the best data for this guy, lol.
Ricky10
Well-known member
If y'all don't get it, then you just won't get it. I really don't care enough about stinging nettle to discuss this anymore and there is no need for anyone to get all worked up. To SNS...I am not trying to attack M-Test at all. In fact, if I was not about to buy Testruction, I would be buying M-Test right now. Very much looking forward to trying it sometime in the near future though!
muscleupcrohn
Legend
I have the full text (PDF) to that study if you want to see it.Stinging Nettle isn't so easily dismissed, IMO. The one rat study is only available for $$$, so you can't really see the details on 5-aR Inhibition. The abstract states:
The Examine write up points out a few other things:
That last part indicates that it does a pretty good job at keeping DHT circulating, by preventing it's binding by SHBG - And - 3,4-Div SOLO, doesn't contain Beta-Sitosterol or Scopoletin, so I can't see that solo lignan interfering with DHT via 5-aR, like *maybe* a full spectrum extract *might*.
You basically have to make the decision of if you think it's *possible* 5-aR interactions (shown in a test tube), are outweighed by it's pretty awesome looking Aromatase Inhibition and SHBG interfering capabilities.
I can tell you for sure that SN *definitely* helps with urine flow.
As an aside, the term "95% 3,4-Divanil" is always thought to be the purity or quantity in/of the extract... Uh, look at the data above - that "95%" is its displacement % of DHT, to SHBG - come on people!
ws65
Member
Sorry to stir up a hornet's nest, like I said in an earlier post in this thread, the Butea isn't going anywhere...I will still take it along with the M-Test (which just came from Nutraplanet today...and props to them for quick delivery and all the extra goodies ...back to the discussion..
...back to the discussion..Daycrawler
Well-known member
M Test is a good possible solution for you.
PCT Assist is also great but with all the sales on M Test I would try that.
Speak with your doctor if you have any concerns
PCT Assist is also great but with all the sales on M Test I would try that.
Speak with your doctor if you have any concerns
Ricky10
Well-known member
I can't believe I am addressing this again but I can't help it. Yes, I am aware of all the studies on stinging nettle, 3,4 Divanil etc in regards to its effects on SHBG. I was aware of these when I first read up on and took the the original TestoPro many years ago. Yes, that is indeed the common perception out there. I am just attempting to make people aware of the other side of the coin. More recent data does not paint such a pretty picture (which of course can be taken with a grain of salt as any study should be.) However I have run 3'4 Divanil products solo from 2 different sources on 2 separate occasions and nothing positive or negative happend at all.
Here is an eye opener from a very reputable source:
Claims have been made that 3,4-divanillyltetrahydrofuran from stinging nettle can inhibit SHBG, but these claims are spurious. A lignan, 3,4-DVTHF has near-zero oral bioavailability & in fact converts to the estrogenic "mammalian lignans" enterolactone and enterodiol following oral administration! Stinging Nettle also blocks the action of the enzyme that converts testosterone to DHT. Some would argue that this is good since DHT is associated with things like hair loss and prostate problems. However, sometimes, in sensitive individuals, side effects include erectile dysfuntion and a decreased amount of semen. Plus, DHT is a critical androgen for males and very important to libido and so Stinging Nettle is questionable in my opinion because of it. I should point out that there are no studies, as far as I know, that actually show Stinging Nettle increasing free testosterone: more research needs to be done.
As if that wasn't enough, DHT acts as an anti-estogen, and whenever you decrease SHBG you get more free test but you also get more free estrogen. So for fun, let's say that 3,4 Divanil actually does decrease SHBG as well as decrease DHT. You would essentially be setting yourself up perfectly for a cascading increase in estrogen. Also interesting that TestoPro XT (new version) did away with their 3,4 Divanil extract. Hmmm..
Here is an eye opener from a very reputable source:
Claims have been made that 3,4-divanillyltetrahydrofuran from stinging nettle can inhibit SHBG, but these claims are spurious. A lignan, 3,4-DVTHF has near-zero oral bioavailability & in fact converts to the estrogenic "mammalian lignans" enterolactone and enterodiol following oral administration! Stinging Nettle also blocks the action of the enzyme that converts testosterone to DHT. Some would argue that this is good since DHT is associated with things like hair loss and prostate problems. However, sometimes, in sensitive individuals, side effects include erectile dysfuntion and a decreased amount of semen. Plus, DHT is a critical androgen for males and very important to libido and so Stinging Nettle is questionable in my opinion because of it. I should point out that there are no studies, as far as I know, that actually show Stinging Nettle increasing free testosterone: more research needs to be done.
As if that wasn't enough, DHT acts as an anti-estogen, and whenever you decrease SHBG you get more free test but you also get more free estrogen. So for fun, let's say that 3,4 Divanil actually does decrease SHBG as well as decrease DHT. You would essentially be setting yourself up perfectly for a cascading increase in estrogen. Also interesting that TestoPro XT (new version) did away with their 3,4 Divanil extract. Hmmm..
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
Questionable, in his opinion - whose opinion? Please post the actual link to that eye opening reputable source.
Just because some supplement company doesn't use something - means Jack - AI Sports threw together (or more likely, had their contract supplier/manufacturer do so) what it thought people would buy as a "Test Booster" and make the most profit on - more ingredients = less profit.
You wouldn't be able to tell about SHBG levels unless you had a bloodwork done. I mean come on man, you're talking like these things are potent drugs with massively noticeable acute effects? Nothing natural will cause "a cascading increase in estrogen".
And EL/LJ/TA also reduce SHBG and no "cascading increase of estrogen" has been seen with it:
Just like you stated earlier:
Anyway, even if SN/3,4 Div does suck (and I actually agree with the concept of not trying to mess with SHBG when PCT'ing off of DRUGS) - "All studies are bias and have conflicting interests" was not the smartest comment to make.
Just because some supplement company doesn't use something - means Jack - AI Sports threw together (or more likely, had their contract supplier/manufacturer do so) what it thought people would buy as a "Test Booster" and make the most profit on - more ingredients = less profit.
You wouldn't be able to tell about SHBG levels unless you had a bloodwork done. I mean come on man, you're talking like these things are potent drugs with massively noticeable acute effects? Nothing natural will cause "a cascading increase in estrogen".
And EL/LJ/TA also reduce SHBG and no "cascading increase of estrogen" has been seen with it:
Just like you stated earlier:
Anyway, even if SN/3,4 Div does suck (and I actually agree with the concept of not trying to mess with SHBG when PCT'ing off of DRUGS) - "All studies are bias and have conflicting interests" was not the smartest comment to make.
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
I have the full text (PDF) to that study if you want to see it.
Thanks man, but I'm not that invested
AntM1564
Legend
A lot of people have suggested ingredients such as tongkat ali and ashwagandha. Both of which are in AlphaMax XT and at complete doses.
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In addition, AlphaMax XT contains 50 mg of forskolin, which not only improves body composition, but also increases testosterone as well.
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Besides just improving testosterone levels, AlphaMax XT will boost libido as well, which may or may not be a problem for your dad.
Currently, Nutriverse has AlphaMax XT buy 2 get 1 free, which is a heck of a deal that will not break the bank at all.
Ricky10
Well-known member
I don't mean to say it will drastically raise estrogen and make you grow a pair of tits. However, why take a substance that could have the potential to contribute to a build up of aromatase/estrogen...much like soy and other phytoestrogens. If you recall, I have run it solo twice (back when I trusted the studies you believe in so strongly) and it was like taking a sugar pill. Kind of supports the theory of 3-4 divanyl having no bioavailabilty, so you are just left with obtaining whatever ligands are left within the original stinging nettle extract...which are not what we want.
On the other hand, Eurycoma longifolia has more studies behind it than probably any other test booster ingredient. None of which have questioned its bioavailabilty, ability to lower SHBG and here is the kicker, it has also been shown to lower cortisol, aromatase/estrogen, and potentially have mild SERM properties. Not to mention restore or promote healthy testosterone levels. This is all dependent on it being a high quality extract of course. Furthermore, people have reported lowered libido while taking Stinging nettle or Stinging nettle based products. I have yet to hear the same complaints about a high quality Eurycoma longifolia product.
I have no personal agenda here except to let people know more about what they are consuming. People can make their own judgements/decisions from there.
On the other hand, Eurycoma longifolia has more studies behind it than probably any other test booster ingredient. None of which have questioned its bioavailabilty, ability to lower SHBG and here is the kicker, it has also been shown to lower cortisol, aromatase/estrogen, and potentially have mild SERM properties. Not to mention restore or promote healthy testosterone levels. This is all dependent on it being a high quality extract of course. Furthermore, people have reported lowered libido while taking Stinging nettle or Stinging nettle based products. I have yet to hear the same complaints about a high quality Eurycoma longifolia product.
I have no personal agenda here except to let people know more about what they are consuming. People can make their own judgements/decisions from there.
Studhorse
Legend
True. I lowered my estrogen too much one time and it killed my libido. not good!
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
I don't "believe in so strongly", it's just that you haven't presented any counter data based on science. The only way to tell if/how it affected your SHBG - would be to run blood tests. These are natural plants - not 1000mg of Test Cypionate that you could "feel". I don't know about you, but I don't feel my Vitamin D or K2 working either. Like the Police say: People make the worst witnesses - same with supplements: people make the worst self-reporting research subjects.
Just going by Examine.com, Stinging Nettle research beats Long Jack research by 3 studies: 56-53 - Tribulus Terrestris has 101 studies listed, and Fenugreek has 103 - so... And while I personally believe that Long Jack *does* do some cool things in regards to SHBG, Libido, and some other areas - It is sorely lacking in the Testosterone production department - with most of *that* data coming from Tambi with Hypogonadal men, and not in peer reviewed material.
I'm open to reading about the poor oral bio-availability of 3,4-Divanil, as the M Schöttner 1997 study was in vitro - but you haven't put up any links yet. The one thing going against the "poor bio-availability" argument (at least for the full spectrum extracts or raw leaves/roots) is that it most definitely improves urine flow/prostate issues - in the research studies, and from personal experience (as this is something you *can* feel/notice).
If you have any data relating to the Biopharmaceutics Classification System and/or Caco-2 for 3,4-Divanil - I am all eyes, put it up, and I will say "You were right".
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I have no agenda either, other than I like to see evidence to back up assertions. Peace.