Kratom Becoming Schedule 1?!?!?!
- Thread starter Brandinooooo
- Start date
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Brandinooooo
Well-known member
One email I received earlier regarding it. Haven't looked into it yet
"We regret to tell everyone that uses Kratom to improve their life whether it be mental or physical, that one of the most corrupt actions we have ever witnessed has occurred and the result will be this amazing plant being added to the list of Schedule I drugs in the USA. In advance I would like to apologize for any spelling or grammar errors in this email but due to the time-sensitive situation here, we're not going to spend a bunch of time editing as we want to get the facts out there ASAP! I am going to lay out the facts of what has happened to lead to this terrible event and the majority of it is based on complete government corruption under the spell of the pharmaceutical industry. Quickly, for those of you who do not know Kratom has been praised for its incredible pain relieving abilities as well as helping people with mental issues, anxiety, depression etc. It also is very well-known for its ability to assist in getting people off hard drugs as well as addiction to pharmaceutical drugs (which right away we all can see the first problem for Big Pharma with this plant).
So without fear of their intimidation tactics we are going to step up and tell you all exactly what has happened. A group of companies have now gotten together with their lawyers to assist in exposing these criminals, and we are all going to work together, because this is about far morethan money - its about the right to use nature to heal ourselves and not be forced on to dangerous pharmaceutical drugs. I will break it down as best I can to make it easy to take in the whole scope, it has been a two year battle against the FDA, Customs and now DEA is involved all on behalf of the greed-driven pharmaceutical industry that has somehow managed to get a stranglehold on the US Government.
CORRUPT ACTIONS OF GOVERNMENT AGENCIES:
1.
We have witnessed many actions all documented by our lawyers. It all started with the Import Alert that was put on importation of Kratom whereby any entity importing kratom as a dietary supplement or bulk dietary ingredient is subject to detention of their shipment without notice. Meaning, in simple terms that the FDA does not want this brought in as a consumable. They state it is unsafe, many side effects etc. (with all sarcasm intended; we all know that the drugs they deal do not have side effects right?). What is so disturbing about this is that they have absolutely no statistics of abuse, dangers or anything, so who is telling them to say it is dangerous? hmm. There has never been a single death or accident resulting in injury or death due to Kratom use, while their drugs kill millions of people.
2.
The FDA and Customs have violated several laws in their efforts to stop the import of Kratom. When importers brought the material in for other uses that were not for consumption, everything was done properly within all FDA regulations, the FDA began stealing shipments. We have evidence of over 80 metric tons of material that was confiscated illegally. Also, there are clear laws that they should abide by such as providing a formal legal letter tothe importer informing them about the shipment being detained so that they can provide any assistance to the FDA/Customs to assist in the release of the material, but instead the FDA took it on themselves to not provide this letter and simply steal the materials. We are quite confident that material was likely offered to pharmaceutical companies for free research of development (this will be followed up with as we go along). Their were also several instances where they had a time limit that they legally needed to release, destroy or return the shipments and they violated the law. As it is very important for importers to abide by the laws of the country, I think it is just as important for them to do likewise, no?
3.
FDA entered into the warehouse of one or more companies without a warrant. With very unethical behavior of one agent especially, obviously the person put in place to throw her "power" around- Melanie Small in her efforts to prove she was right stated several times unprofessionally to the owner that Kratom was illegal, and he is not allowed to sell it. As the owner rebutted with the truth about the law, she continued to demand he stop selling it. Which of course, all this was intimidation only, but to those who know the laws and abide by them, she wasn't really all that scary, sorry Melanie, that kind of behavior is not appropriate.
4.
The FDA intercepted a shipment going from one warehouse to a client that was in the hands of FedEx. They did not have a warrant to search the shipment but along with local law enforcement (so was told to us by an FedEx worker), they sat and discussed how they could get into the boxes. The sender was not informed of any stoppage of the shipment, and lets not forget, why is it being stopped when its not even an illegal material? Something not right about that...
5.
Using DHL, the FDA attempted to have a box delivered to one recipient when it should have gone to a completely different State, they misdelivered a package to prove that these two individuals were linked somehow, since one had been added to the import alert without any cause. The manipulation of couriers without any court order is completely immoral and illegal.
6.
With the FDA clearly failing at stopping the import and sale of this plant material, and probably getting in major sh*t from whichever pharmaceutical company was paying them to interfere with free trade between Indonesia and USA, which again is a serious international criminal offense, they brought in the DEA to take over and introduce the "Intent" document to add Kratom to the list of Schedule I drugs in the USA. Now, interesting how this formal intent document was created in mid May 2016 but somehow remained hidden from the public until two days ago where we and other companies were bombarded with warnings from lawyers letting us know they delayed the publicity of this so that there was no time to fight back against such corruption. Literally 36 hours before the law would be introduced they knew this wouldn't be much time for people like us to raise hell over it. As they say the substance is so dangerous, why would they hide such a document from the public, all those people could be getting hurt, or killed or whatever crap they are feeding the public... its because they know this is not a dangerous substance!
7.
Let me set the scene of this one. An innocent employee of a large Kratom supplier is opening the door to the warehouse when several FDA and Police cars come skreetching in, jumping out and pointing guns at the scared employee. Forcing him to open the door at gunpoint he couldn't get the key to work, whether it was because something was wrong with the key or he was just to nervous and not used to having guns shoved in his face. He requested they lower the guns since he's not armed and all do except one hero who keeps aiming the gun at him. They finally get into the warehouse and walk in and take the material they came for, walking out without arresting anyone. A simple theft, Gestapo style. What is so pathetic about this is if the agents told him the material was under bond and they were confiscating it, he would have simply handed it over to them without problems, but to make themselves feel like heroes and tough guys, they used this intimidation tactic. It was soon discovered why they did this, it made the media about what they did, making the supplier look like a criminal, but again let me remind everyone KRATOM IS NOT ILLEGAL. How disgusting is that? Torment and intimidate innocent people to swindle the perspective of the public.
NOW THE MEAT AND POTATOES
"Schedule I" means that the substance has absolutely no medicinal value, is addictive and a major threat to the public. Strangely though, the FDA along with Universities are doing studies on the benefits of this plant. They have been synthesizing the alkaloids and there has even been a Drug released containing the actives of Kratom. This drug is called "PZM21". So, what the DEA is now stating will be in place is Kratom shall be listed as Schedule I, but what is super important for everyone to understand is they are setting it up so that this scheduling has a two year length, meaning, anyone who imports, possess, sells or distributes this plant material will suffer the same penalties as if it were heroin, crack cocaine or meth. So, lets look at it from the DEA, FDA and most importantly Pharmaceutical industries perspective and its very simple... bye bye Kratom. Bye bye competition and hello opportunities! You may ask, how is this an opportunity if its Schedule I and even the drug companies aren't allowed to handle the alkaloids or their analogues, well, remember the two year expiry on that ban, so its simple once all the competition (Kratom suppliers) are out of the picture, the drug companies pay the DEA to change the Kratom Schedule to lower schedule where the plant is still illegal, but they can now use the alkaloids and their analogues under prescription and BOOM market takeover and they get all the profits from the now outlawed Kratom, but in this movement they have also turned the natural safe chemicals in the plant into synthetic, addictive, dangerous ones and what does that mean for them, big surprise, even more profits! Ah yes, Fascism at its worst... we often end our emails with "The true meaning of Fascism is not being able to see a clear line between Government and Corporate interest" and once again this stands true. And how many people are going to suffer from having this plant taken away from them? How many people is their new dangerous version of Kratom going to kill or addict, only time can tell.
VIDEO: US WAR VETERAN PERSPECTIVE
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(if the link is not working, copy & paste into your browser)
We are asking now that everyone spreads the word, get on facebook, twitter, or just email this story to as many people as you can. Write in to your congress members, or even better go to the link below, in the dropdown choose message Attorney General and state your content on there. Let's bombard these guys, lets not go down without swinging. If they can steal this plant from us in the name of corporate interest what is coming next?"
"We regret to tell everyone that uses Kratom to improve their life whether it be mental or physical, that one of the most corrupt actions we have ever witnessed has occurred and the result will be this amazing plant being added to the list of Schedule I drugs in the USA. In advance I would like to apologize for any spelling or grammar errors in this email but due to the time-sensitive situation here, we're not going to spend a bunch of time editing as we want to get the facts out there ASAP! I am going to lay out the facts of what has happened to lead to this terrible event and the majority of it is based on complete government corruption under the spell of the pharmaceutical industry. Quickly, for those of you who do not know Kratom has been praised for its incredible pain relieving abilities as well as helping people with mental issues, anxiety, depression etc. It also is very well-known for its ability to assist in getting people off hard drugs as well as addiction to pharmaceutical drugs (which right away we all can see the first problem for Big Pharma with this plant).
So without fear of their intimidation tactics we are going to step up and tell you all exactly what has happened. A group of companies have now gotten together with their lawyers to assist in exposing these criminals, and we are all going to work together, because this is about far morethan money - its about the right to use nature to heal ourselves and not be forced on to dangerous pharmaceutical drugs. I will break it down as best I can to make it easy to take in the whole scope, it has been a two year battle against the FDA, Customs and now DEA is involved all on behalf of the greed-driven pharmaceutical industry that has somehow managed to get a stranglehold on the US Government.
CORRUPT ACTIONS OF GOVERNMENT AGENCIES:
1.
We have witnessed many actions all documented by our lawyers. It all started with the Import Alert that was put on importation of Kratom whereby any entity importing kratom as a dietary supplement or bulk dietary ingredient is subject to detention of their shipment without notice. Meaning, in simple terms that the FDA does not want this brought in as a consumable. They state it is unsafe, many side effects etc. (with all sarcasm intended; we all know that the drugs they deal do not have side effects right?). What is so disturbing about this is that they have absolutely no statistics of abuse, dangers or anything, so who is telling them to say it is dangerous? hmm. There has never been a single death or accident resulting in injury or death due to Kratom use, while their drugs kill millions of people.
2.
The FDA and Customs have violated several laws in their efforts to stop the import of Kratom. When importers brought the material in for other uses that were not for consumption, everything was done properly within all FDA regulations, the FDA began stealing shipments. We have evidence of over 80 metric tons of material that was confiscated illegally. Also, there are clear laws that they should abide by such as providing a formal legal letter tothe importer informing them about the shipment being detained so that they can provide any assistance to the FDA/Customs to assist in the release of the material, but instead the FDA took it on themselves to not provide this letter and simply steal the materials. We are quite confident that material was likely offered to pharmaceutical companies for free research of development (this will be followed up with as we go along). Their were also several instances where they had a time limit that they legally needed to release, destroy or return the shipments and they violated the law. As it is very important for importers to abide by the laws of the country, I think it is just as important for them to do likewise, no?
3.
FDA entered into the warehouse of one or more companies without a warrant. With very unethical behavior of one agent especially, obviously the person put in place to throw her "power" around- Melanie Small in her efforts to prove she was right stated several times unprofessionally to the owner that Kratom was illegal, and he is not allowed to sell it. As the owner rebutted with the truth about the law, she continued to demand he stop selling it. Which of course, all this was intimidation only, but to those who know the laws and abide by them, she wasn't really all that scary, sorry Melanie, that kind of behavior is not appropriate.
4.
The FDA intercepted a shipment going from one warehouse to a client that was in the hands of FedEx. They did not have a warrant to search the shipment but along with local law enforcement (so was told to us by an FedEx worker), they sat and discussed how they could get into the boxes. The sender was not informed of any stoppage of the shipment, and lets not forget, why is it being stopped when its not even an illegal material? Something not right about that...
5.
Using DHL, the FDA attempted to have a box delivered to one recipient when it should have gone to a completely different State, they misdelivered a package to prove that these two individuals were linked somehow, since one had been added to the import alert without any cause. The manipulation of couriers without any court order is completely immoral and illegal.
6.
With the FDA clearly failing at stopping the import and sale of this plant material, and probably getting in major sh*t from whichever pharmaceutical company was paying them to interfere with free trade between Indonesia and USA, which again is a serious international criminal offense, they brought in the DEA to take over and introduce the "Intent" document to add Kratom to the list of Schedule I drugs in the USA. Now, interesting how this formal intent document was created in mid May 2016 but somehow remained hidden from the public until two days ago where we and other companies were bombarded with warnings from lawyers letting us know they delayed the publicity of this so that there was no time to fight back against such corruption. Literally 36 hours before the law would be introduced they knew this wouldn't be much time for people like us to raise hell over it. As they say the substance is so dangerous, why would they hide such a document from the public, all those people could be getting hurt, or killed or whatever crap they are feeding the public... its because they know this is not a dangerous substance!
7.
Let me set the scene of this one. An innocent employee of a large Kratom supplier is opening the door to the warehouse when several FDA and Police cars come skreetching in, jumping out and pointing guns at the scared employee. Forcing him to open the door at gunpoint he couldn't get the key to work, whether it was because something was wrong with the key or he was just to nervous and not used to having guns shoved in his face. He requested they lower the guns since he's not armed and all do except one hero who keeps aiming the gun at him. They finally get into the warehouse and walk in and take the material they came for, walking out without arresting anyone. A simple theft, Gestapo style. What is so pathetic about this is if the agents told him the material was under bond and they were confiscating it, he would have simply handed it over to them without problems, but to make themselves feel like heroes and tough guys, they used this intimidation tactic. It was soon discovered why they did this, it made the media about what they did, making the supplier look like a criminal, but again let me remind everyone KRATOM IS NOT ILLEGAL. How disgusting is that? Torment and intimidate innocent people to swindle the perspective of the public.
NOW THE MEAT AND POTATOES
"Schedule I" means that the substance has absolutely no medicinal value, is addictive and a major threat to the public. Strangely though, the FDA along with Universities are doing studies on the benefits of this plant. They have been synthesizing the alkaloids and there has even been a Drug released containing the actives of Kratom. This drug is called "PZM21". So, what the DEA is now stating will be in place is Kratom shall be listed as Schedule I, but what is super important for everyone to understand is they are setting it up so that this scheduling has a two year length, meaning, anyone who imports, possess, sells or distributes this plant material will suffer the same penalties as if it were heroin, crack cocaine or meth. So, lets look at it from the DEA, FDA and most importantly Pharmaceutical industries perspective and its very simple... bye bye Kratom. Bye bye competition and hello opportunities! You may ask, how is this an opportunity if its Schedule I and even the drug companies aren't allowed to handle the alkaloids or their analogues, well, remember the two year expiry on that ban, so its simple once all the competition (Kratom suppliers) are out of the picture, the drug companies pay the DEA to change the Kratom Schedule to lower schedule where the plant is still illegal, but they can now use the alkaloids and their analogues under prescription and BOOM market takeover and they get all the profits from the now outlawed Kratom, but in this movement they have also turned the natural safe chemicals in the plant into synthetic, addictive, dangerous ones and what does that mean for them, big surprise, even more profits! Ah yes, Fascism at its worst... we often end our emails with "The true meaning of Fascism is not being able to see a clear line between Government and Corporate interest" and once again this stands true. And how many people are going to suffer from having this plant taken away from them? How many people is their new dangerous version of Kratom going to kill or addict, only time can tell.
VIDEO: US WAR VETERAN PERSPECTIVE
Invalid Link Removed
(if the link is not working, copy & paste into your browser)
We are asking now that everyone spreads the word, get on facebook, twitter, or just email this story to as many people as you can. Write in to your congress members, or even better go to the link below, in the dropdown choose message Attorney General and state your content on there. Let's bombard these guys, lets not go down without swinging. If they can steal this plant from us in the name of corporate interest what is coming next?"
cheftepesh1
Well-known member
Read this this morning. It is happening I think on the 7th of September.
Brandinooooo
Well-known member
Oh ok. I can't believe it though. DEA ruins everything. The stores that carry it here haven't heard anything about it yet though.
RugbyBaller91
Active member
I was told the garbage Kratom drinks they sell in the gas stations caused it
Brandinooooo
Well-known member
I wouldn't be surprised since those drinks don't say "Not for human consumption" like all of the actual powders and caps.
criticalbench
Legend
I read this.. This is horrible
Ape McGrapes
Well-known member
Dafuq?!!!
Ape McGrapes
Well-known member
Petition link.
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
Brandinooooo
Well-known member
I actually signed it earlier. But thanks for bringing it up, I totally forgot.
Jiigzz
Legend
It is illegal though already isn't it? An NDI was filed but rejected because the full safety profile wasn't known at the time.
Pretty sure it's always been illegal, but now they're scheduling it. I don't know much about kratom, but remember that pharma drugs go through years of development snd testing (which is how we know what many of the side effects are) whereas a lot of botanicals do not. Being a plant does not make it "healthier" than a pharma drug.
Based on some of the research, I can understand why it was targeted.
Invalid Link Removed
Pretty sure it's always been illegal, but now they're scheduling it. I don't know much about kratom, but remember that pharma drugs go through years of development snd testing (which is how we know what many of the side effects are) whereas a lot of botanicals do not. Being a plant does not make it "healthier" than a pharma drug.
Based on some of the research, I can understand why it was targeted.
Invalid Link Removed
De__eB
Well-known member
Schedule I is harsh, yes, but technically Kratom qualifies.
-There's no medically accepted health claim for straight kratom extracts, because no research has come to fruition indicating it is better than already existing alternatives and no likely INDs in the drug pipeline. Additionally, to be sold as a supplement would make it an NDI, and last I checked nobody is rushing to perform safety studies on their kratom powder so that would never be approved.
-Kratom certainly has its' risks, overdoses happen and aren't outside the realm of naivety to induce on accident. Side effects are also relatively common
-It is also physically addictive and comes with withdrawals if used regularly for very long
--
Also, nobody has ever had a credible leg to stand on ever for claiming that their 'not for human consumption' products that are blatantly sold for human consumption were unfairly taken off the market, because that entire business model is a farce.
Kratom is already absolutely not legal for anybody to sell for human consumption.
-There's no medically accepted health claim for straight kratom extracts, because no research has come to fruition indicating it is better than already existing alternatives and no likely INDs in the drug pipeline. Additionally, to be sold as a supplement would make it an NDI, and last I checked nobody is rushing to perform safety studies on their kratom powder so that would never be approved.
-Kratom certainly has its' risks, overdoses happen and aren't outside the realm of naivety to induce on accident. Side effects are also relatively common
-It is also physically addictive and comes with withdrawals if used regularly for very long
--
Also, nobody has ever had a credible leg to stand on ever for claiming that their 'not for human consumption' products that are blatantly sold for human consumption were unfairly taken off the market, because that entire business model is a farce.
Kratom is already absolutely not legal for anybody to sell for human consumption.
Godstrength
Board Sponsor
It's a wrap boys... It's a done deal. Kratom is finished. They're cracking down on designer drugs. We can thank things like spice, bath salt, flacca and even fentanyl that's being spiked in heroin killing folks dead that's coming from these research Chem companies. It sucks because no one is going to bite someone's face off while on kratom. 
Mixelflick
Active member
Does anyone know where the CEO's and families of big pharma companies live?
These people need to be held accountable
These people need to be held accountable
De__eB
Well-known member
This has nothing to do with big pharma.
I don't see Joe Blow research chem hurr durr not for human consumption site owners funding safety studies or in any way demonstrating the purity and safety of their products.
Who's accountable when people die from a Kratom overdose, or spiked kratom?
How did anybody expect this to end?
scoooter
Well-known member
The 32-year-old founder and CEO of Turing Pharmaceutical made headlines in September for raising the price of Daraprim, often used to treat HIV and AIDS patients, from $13.50 per pill to $750 per pill after buying the rights to the drug. Martin Shkreli, who drew national scorn for hiking the cost of a life-saving drug 4,000 percent overnight, has been arrested, according to multiple reports early Thursday.
The news that Mylan CEO Heather Bresch got a nearly sevenfold pay increase while hiking the price of her drug company’s popular EpiPen 400 percent over the past eight years is shocking enough. What you may not realize is how closely tied those facts are, Senator Joe Manchin of West Virginia is her father
De__eB
Well-known member
Neither one of those are patented drugs, and anybody who wants to start a pharma company is more than welcome to develop and market a generic.
Mixelflick
Active member
This is precisely what I'm talking about. It should have never gotten to this point. If the FDA/DEA was doing its job, they would have stopped these clowns in their tracks before they enriched themselves/hurt innocent people who needed their drugs to live.
Instead, they're busy going after Kratom.
This country is 19 TRILLION in debt, we don't have time for this bullshi!t. The people at the top of big pharma, the FDA, the DEA need to be held accountable.
Godstrength
Board Sponsor
Uh far worse designers out there than kratom.... That aren't being made schedule one drugs. Do you even realize that the food industry along with the pharmacuetical industry makes this country go round, and that our government protects those things to ensure that the money train continues to flow. Why do you think all those small farms were put out of business? So that the food industry could produce cheap processed food that is essentially nutrient less and hike up prices. That is why we have the FDA. Food and drug my friend is hugely responsible for what makes things happen. Didn't you know that the gov is in bed w the pharmaceutical companies? That they sometimes pay upward of over a million dollars to have the patent for there drug approved on a "fast track". That research has very little to do with what drugs are on the market, as the research is done by the drug companies themselves. It's far bigger than what you see my friend wake up
De__eB
Well-known member
Which far worse designer drug is being pushed out of every head shop in the country and causing overdoses?
Because I'm sure once their use is as widespread as kratom and the body count starts, they'll be scheduled as well.
Do you realize that without modern pharmaceuticals, our life expectancy would be 20 years lower. And our government hardly protects those companies, it is prohibitively expensive to start a pharmaceutical company, the majority of new pharmaceutical companies fail without ever getting a drug to market just like every other industry. Except a pharma startup runs you the minimum of tens of millions of dollars.
What small farms that who put out of business? And the agribusiness industry contributes largely to *decreasing* prices not hiking them up. There's a reason your local small farm sourcing grocery store or whole foods costs twice as much as the big grocers.
The overwhelming majority of staple foods have increased in price at rates LOWER than inflation over the past 40 years.
This has happened solely because of big agribusiness.
Put away the conspiracy theories, People like you are the bane of rational discussion about any issue.
Actually, they pay to get their IND applications fast tracked so they can get life-saving drugs to market faster. Would you rather they not spend that money and people die while a drug takes years longer to reach the market? Also, if the FDA is in bed with pharma, why would they charge them to fast track things, shouldn't they want pharma to get as many drugs on the market as fast as possible? Oh wait, the narrative you're trying to drive is entirely contradictory with itself.
How about you wake up from your alex jones induced stupor and actually learn anything about anything to do with the food, supplement, and pharma industries so you can actually have any understanding of the actual inefficiencies and problems involved in those industries and their interactions with the FDA instead of just subscribing to bull****.
De__eB
Well-known member
Show me the person who died due to lack of daraprim access.
The drug is literally 100% free to any uninsured person making less than $55,000/yr. (500% of the FPL)
-
Show me the person who died due to a lack of epipen access in the U.S.
EpiPens are also free after discount from Mylan if you're on anything but a high deductible plan.
Drug price changes are largely driven by back end changes in negotiated insurance compensation rates to pharma companies. No individual consumer is ever meant to actually pay full retail price for a prescription drug.
If the largest government and public exchange insurance pools in the country all say 'hey we're only going to pay you 10% of the retail price instead of 30% of the retail price' on drug, then the retail price of the drug is going to be increased.
Don't want to pay a lot for drugs? Don't sign up for a high deductible high out of pocket plan if you have known health problems.
Mylan's biggest 'EpiPen' competitor had to recall their product after a mechanical issue, and still has several BILLION dollars in outstanding potential civil liability. You think they didn't take notice of that? They had a fiduciary responsibility to make effective business choices. In the face of increased liability, they absolutely have to defer that risk with higher prices, and that's responsible for the rest of the price increase in EpiPens.
smith_69
Well-known member
correction, the dea doesn't ruin everything- ITS THE GREED OF THE RETAILERS THAT RUIN IT.
Godstrength
Board Sponsor
Bro, you are really blind.... Majority of the life saving drugs that your talking about come with plethora of their own side effects. Let's take blood pressure medication for instance, just for one example. Or diabetic medication. These issues could better be controlled with diet and exercise than medication. But guess what, if we continue to feed you crap food you will continue to have health problems and continue to go to a doctor to get a magic pill to fix your problem... Can you see the cycle there? If you can't see the tangled web we are in your lost. Our medical system sucks in America, if you even try and dispute that it's laughable. Our country is 5% of the world population and we consume 75% of the worlds prescription drugs. Like I said buddy wake up, the pharmaceutical companies are businesses that make billions. The millions you proclaim they cost to "start up" are a drop in the bucket. There is no reason an epi pen shot should cost hundreds of dollars. If the FDA really was what your saying they would never allow that to happen.
jamesm11
Well-known member
De__eb, why must you come in here with intelligent and cogent thoughts? This is a tinfoil hat only thread. Lol.
People who have no idea how the pharma industry works and read media click bait are the worst. I've done some legal work on 510(k) and medical devices, which forced me to learn about the industry as a whole.
Do people not realize is takes 10 years to get a drug to market, at a cost of about $100M per year. So, assuming a drug is brought to market, there is $1B that needs to be recouped. Nevermind the dozens of drugs that are abandoned after years of research costing several hundred million each time.
Kratom does not have any proven medical usage, and the opiode epidemic in this country likely brings extra scrutiny to this drug. It's also addictive.
Marijuana, on the other hand, certainly has medical usages and the argument about Schedule I for that has some legs.
People who have no idea how the pharma industry works and read media click bait are the worst. I've done some legal work on 510(k) and medical devices, which forced me to learn about the industry as a whole.
Do people not realize is takes 10 years to get a drug to market, at a cost of about $100M per year. So, assuming a drug is brought to market, there is $1B that needs to be recouped. Nevermind the dozens of drugs that are abandoned after years of research costing several hundred million each time.
Kratom does not have any proven medical usage, and the opiode epidemic in this country likely brings extra scrutiny to this drug. It's also addictive.
Marijuana, on the other hand, certainly has medical usages and the argument about Schedule I for that has some legs.
smith_69
Well-known member
when has it become the fda and dea's responsibility to control the profit margin of a drug company?
this is what happens when pharma companies have big money and can spend it and support the right people. money talks. period
De__eB
Well-known member
They sure could.
But people are lazy and overeat ****ty food. That's their personal choice. Nobody straps you to a table and shoves a big mac and extra large coke down your throat. Would you rather big pharma not sell the drugs that keep them alive? Would you rather they die?
If it sucks so much, move to some rosy pasture with a way better system. I'll wait for you to find one.
Wait, so banning a substance that has no established safety standards, no oversight, and has killed people is government overreach.
But you want the FDA to mandate prices on drugs people spent tens of millions on safety studies and accept billions in civil liability risk for?
If you can't see the hypocrisy in your positions, you're beyond help. Go stock up on gold and survival kits from the infowars store.
And again, EpiPens are literally patentless. Go start a company manufacturing and selling them for cheap. It's such a simple easy to do thing and you too can make your billions just like the rest of the pharma industry, right?
Godstrength
Board Sponsor
You guys think your so smart... Having eyes they cannot see and ears they cannot hear. Do you really really believe the pharmacy industry is good? Some medicine yes, but these are businesses and those who sit at the top are sharks. They care more about dollar signs than people. I have seen far more than you think my friend. You have no idea who I am where I've been and what I've seen, not that it matters as you can be anything you want on the Internet. Even a self described expert about our pharmaceutical industry and their "good deeds" and non for profit work of the saints
sespress
Well-known member
Well now, I'm guessing you have insurance and this isn't ever a problem for you. But not everyone has access to a non high deductible plan. Many of our employers are pushing us into them little by little. Many insurers are taking drugs off of their formularies due to this type of increase. So careful how you phrase this. As if everyone had a choice all the time or could afford the PPO choice on the market.
A friend who had gotten aids back when they called it "grid" relied on that drug and he makes around but 80k. MOST of his salary goes to medication. He got the illness through blood transfusion. When this happened he had no recourse, his insurance would not cover it and using a calculator he would have needed to make two or three times his salary to be able to afford it and FOOD to eat at the same time. He was scrambling to figure out what to do with his doctor.
So unless you've actually fit one of those specific cases you described you should probably not throw it out there as if it's the consumers fault for not carrying better insurance.
Godstrength
Board Sponsor
They sure could.
But people are lazy and overeat ****ty food. That's their personal choice. Nobody straps you to a table and shoves a big mac and extra large coke down your throat. Would you rather big pharma not sell the drugs that keep them alive? Would you rather they die?
That's exactly my point, you don't see doctors saying we need to change your diet before we put you on medicine. If you don't it's going to get worse. Change your diet to x and come back in a month and let's look at it and evaluate. Nope magic pill problem solved. And the doctors get kickbacks from who else? Our good friends in the pharma companies for prescribing their "medicine". That's our great medical system.
Also our fda allows McDonald's Burger King all this crap on every corner. Did you know they add chemicals to this stuff to make it addictive? That when you stop eating it your body goes through cravings similar to drug withdrawal. And that there is no nutritional value in this stuff? But if our government was the saints you paint them as they would be bringing public awareness to these things. Of course they don't, it keeps people relying on prescription drugs and our medical system.
If it sucks so much, move to some rosy pasture with a way better system. I'll wait for you to find one.
Nah I like this country, the medical system sucks and I don't agree with everything but it's still one of the best places in the world. But thanks for the advice.
Wait, so banning a substance that has no established safety standards, no oversight, and has killed people is government overreach.
I'm not saying the kratom ban is bad man, but if you think big pharma isn't a little worried this would cut into their hugely profitable opiate market you just can't see.
But you want the FDA to mandate prices on drugs people spent tens of millions on safety studies and accept billions in civil liability risk for?
If you can't see the hypocrisy in your positions, you're beyond help. Go stock up on gold and survival kits from the infowars store.
And again, EpiPens are literally patentless. Go start a company manufacturing and selling them for cheap. It's such a simple easy to do thing and you too can make your billions just like the rest of the pharma industry, right?[/QUOTE]
Yeah but it's kinda funny how the other one on the market was taken off the market by the FDA, and then the big price hike... I thought monopolies and price gouging were illegal in this country?
But people are lazy and overeat ****ty food. That's their personal choice. Nobody straps you to a table and shoves a big mac and extra large coke down your throat. Would you rather big pharma not sell the drugs that keep them alive? Would you rather they die?
That's exactly my point, you don't see doctors saying we need to change your diet before we put you on medicine. If you don't it's going to get worse. Change your diet to x and come back in a month and let's look at it and evaluate. Nope magic pill problem solved. And the doctors get kickbacks from who else? Our good friends in the pharma companies for prescribing their "medicine". That's our great medical system.
Also our fda allows McDonald's Burger King all this crap on every corner. Did you know they add chemicals to this stuff to make it addictive? That when you stop eating it your body goes through cravings similar to drug withdrawal. And that there is no nutritional value in this stuff? But if our government was the saints you paint them as they would be bringing public awareness to these things. Of course they don't, it keeps people relying on prescription drugs and our medical system.
If it sucks so much, move to some rosy pasture with a way better system. I'll wait for you to find one.
Nah I like this country, the medical system sucks and I don't agree with everything but it's still one of the best places in the world. But thanks for the advice.
Wait, so banning a substance that has no established safety standards, no oversight, and has killed people is government overreach.
I'm not saying the kratom ban is bad man, but if you think big pharma isn't a little worried this would cut into their hugely profitable opiate market you just can't see.
But you want the FDA to mandate prices on drugs people spent tens of millions on safety studies and accept billions in civil liability risk for?
If you can't see the hypocrisy in your positions, you're beyond help. Go stock up on gold and survival kits from the infowars store.
And again, EpiPens are literally patentless. Go start a company manufacturing and selling them for cheap. It's such a simple easy to do thing and you too can make your billions just like the rest of the pharma industry, right?[/QUOTE]
Yeah but it's kinda funny how the other one on the market was taken off the market by the FDA, and then the big price hike... I thought monopolies and price gouging were illegal in this country?
De__eB
Well-known member
It was recalled by the company after several people died because the full dose wasn't delivered because their product wasn't as reliable as EpiPens because they didn't want to get sued into oblivion.
Would you rather pay $200 for something that might save your life or $600 for something that will save your life.
If I've got a major allergy, I'll take the reliable option every time.
Godstrength
Board Sponsor
I get that but the price increase that followed? Legal yes shady yes definitely taking advantage of an opportunity to make more money off the people... Like I said they're sharks
I made other comments in your quote as well if you care to go look at them
De__eB
Well-known member
The average negotiated cost of a set of 2 Epi-pens is $530.
The discount card available to every single individual insured can defer your out of pocket costs by $300 of that.
If your insurance covers exactly $0 of your EpiPen cost, you're looking at $230 out of pocket.
Not cheap, but not a crippling amount either.
Godstrength
Board Sponsor
Bro that's crazy.... 530$ for 2 epi pens? SMH how is the lower economic status supposed to pay for that? Who cares about them right, as long as I get mine. But the pharmacuetical industry is there to help people I forgot
De__eB
Well-known member
Nobody is intended to pay $530.
There's a reason they give out a free $300 discount card to every single individual who needs one.
The drug price increases are almost entirely to:
-Offset whatever increased litigation risk their legal department calculated after the Auvi-Q recall
-As a part of negotiated price structuring with insurance pools
Mylan's overall net income is declining year over year.
Would you rather they not make a profit, and it not be worth selling EpiPens, and they be entirely unavailable to people who need them?
Godstrength
Board Sponsor
Your missing my point. Drug companies about that $$. Always have been always will and the gov sets the rules that they play by and you better believe they're getting theirs. You don't play by the gov rules you got problems. Hence the original point, big pharma don't like the idea of something cutting into their opiate sales that is natural and in plant form. You gotta see man, kratom isn't all that potent. It's no where near as potent as the Suboxone there pushing down people's throat and getting them addicted to and calling it "harm reduction".
At the end of the day it's now a scheduled 1 and I'm fine with it and the drug companies can breath. There is no kratom epidemic. If the government really wanted to do something they would put a stop to all the research chemical fentanyl and now elephant pain killer that is coming in and killing people because dealers are spiking heroin with it. There's your epidemic, not kratom.
De__eB
Well-known member
That's already illegal and one of the DEAs top priorities...
Godstrength
Board Sponsor
It's not illegal, there is a loophole in the law where it being sold for "research purposes" with one or two changed molecules in the makeup. Substance are either banned, scheduled or patented. If they're not that specific compound they fall into a grey area. They're not "illegal" according to the anologue laws... Hence all the "designer drugs" that are hitting the streets
Fentanyl is one such drug that is being sold on the Internet as fentanyl acetyl. Slightly changed, same potent chemical
You also have to understand those loopholes are designed to benefit the pharmacuetical companies that's why they won't close them...
De__eB
Well-known member
It is still very much illegal under the federal analogue act, and RC sites get hit with criminal charges all the time over it, because 'not for human consumption' doesn't hold up in court.
Also, want to tell me how a 'loophole' that lets people get away with selling illicit drug analogues for a while is somehow designed to benefit big pharma?
You're all over the map here.
Godstrength
Board Sponsor
You just said that it wasn't legal now your saying the loophole makes it legal to sell for a while. I think your all over the map.
Ape McGrapes
Well-known member
Can we just think about the kratom for a minute...
De__eB
Well-known member
Where did I say it was legal to sell for a while?
I said they get away with it for a while.
Doing something illegal and getting away with it doesn't make it legal.
Jiigzz
Legend
This argument is weak and you know it. A Doc cannot persuade a patient to exercise or alter their nutrition, and these people usually know that both will help. But guess what? The vast majority of humans do not care for either like we do. Convenience and comfort trump that 90% of the time. Many of us will spend tens of thousands improving the living spaces of our houses because we spend so much time there - newer and bigger TVs, better gaming systems, sound systems etc. but even getting outside for a 10 minute task - something that takes us away from those spaces of comfort - is a huge battle for the average/ typical human in the 1st world.
Once you have diabetes, you cannot get 'rid' of it. You can better manage it through better eating and nutrition, but once you have it, medication is also a tool we use to manage people who have it. Some people will literally rely on meds because they refuse to change dietary behaviours, or lack to the will power to change. The medication literally saves their life.
Where have you been and what have you seen that makes you think you *know* more than some of us here on the boards? A bit of an elitist attitude. Do you know who De__eB is or what he has seen? Kind of a funny statement to make.
Brandinooooo
Well-known member
5 or so years ago when they first came out with the EpiPens in retail stores, they were like $50 if I remember correctly. They were really cheap. The reason behind the insane price hike is the fact that people now know that they can and will save your life. So once they realized most households would buy them, they upped the price. Which is bull****.
Simple, ****ed economics. Its the same thing that douchebag tried to do with the AID's medication a few years ago.
De__eB
Well-known member
You can buy a generic pair of EpiPens (Amedra Pharma Adrenaclick) already for $144.62 via manufacturer's discount.
Invalid Link Removed
Name brand drugs will always be expensive. Mylan itself is a huge seller of generics, and their profits on things like epipens enable them to sell generics at near loss-leader level pricing.
Actually, you didn't read the whole story about that one.
Daraprim is available for exactly $0 to patients with income under 500% of the FPL.
The increase in Daraprim pricing was to accelerate their pipleine of new toxoplasmosis drugs. Turing allocates roughly ~70% of its gross revenue back into research.
They have three different DHFR inhibitors in their pipeline that require significant further human trials before they can come to market. These drugs would be the first new toxoplasmosis drugs in decades if they actually make it to market.
They're also the only pharmaceutical company in the entire world with a promising preclinical aminocyclase deficiency treatment for Canavan disease, a rare neurological disorder that is incurable and invariably fatal.
They also have a drug in the pipeline to treat Lafora Disease, yet another invariably fatal neurological disease with no treatment.
Turing pharmaceuticals lost $30 million dollars in 2015. That's not sustainable and they aren't getting rich. None of their research can continue to be funded if they don't find ways to get revenue out of existing drugs.
So do you want new drugs for toxoplasmosis and multiple neurological disease that have no treatment and no cure, or do you want dirt cheap daraprim. You don't get both. That's not how the world works.
Brandinooooo
Well-known member
You're right lol. One company did come out with a generic version as competition for the super rate hike. Can't remember off the top of my head which company though. But its extremely cheap with insurance.
Jiigzz
Legend
This is important - the CEO got shafted because he was also a douche about it, but the media also didn't show the "whys" of the price hike, just the negatives. This si why it is important to understand BOTH sides of the argument before getting emotional about it - emotion trumps logic, especially when you are already skeptical of the pharma industry. You will jump on the "I hate Turing bandwagon" before even considering why they did it.
De__eB
Well-known member
This right here.
It's easy to take a surface look at headlines like 'Epipens for $600?!? That's outrageous'
It takes a little more effort to dig deeper and find the full story behind things.
Godstrength
Board Sponsor
Good one bro lol
Doctors should be persuading people to do that, not just write a perscription for something there getting a kickback for. It's called ethics. Something that seems to be lost in this world.
And I'm not an elitist and could really care less about your "boards" I have a real life I don't have much concern or time for stupid posts and nonsense. It's a shame I allowed myself to get tangled up for that I am sorry. At the end of the day, I will not be moved to the fact that pharmacueticals are in bed with our government and they are a business more concerned with profits than people...
Good day jugz or whatever your name is
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