Ecdysterone - Any fans here?

scoooter said:
From the ergolog link...."So if you weigh 80 kg, you'd need 8 g extract daily. And that's a lot. Do any of those bodybuilding supplements contain enough ecdysteroids to actually have an effect"....nope And then there is the cost to benefit ratio....at 8G / day that would break my bank.
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Yup-but-Do ANY bb'ing supps ever contain enough? Lol
Find me bb'ing Supp that doesn't require MORE than the bottle dictates for use. :-)
 
Whacked said:
Yup-but-Do ANY bb'ing supps ever contain enough? Lol
Find me bb'ing Supp that doesn't require MORE than the bottle dictates for use. :-)
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Quality takes a big part of it too, I think most (or many) ecdy products haven't gone through independent 3rd party lab testing to verify the raws. Most companies just rely on Certificate of Analysis from the manufacturer which is meaningless. You have to question the quality used in these studies too.
 
Whacked said:
Yup-but-Do ANY bb'ing supps ever contain enough? Lol
Find me bb'ing Supp that doesn't require MORE than the bottle dictates for use. :-)
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Just to name a few:
Viron, Follidrone, Ep1c, HCGenerate, e9, OG Anabeta & DermaStr3ngth are all dosed properly ; )
 
I think that was a little tongue in cheek :) My fav is: Serving size: 2 Caps - Servings per container: 30 (yay! I get a month!) Errrrrrr.... Directions: Take 4 caps a day. Hahaha.
 
ax1 said:
Quality takes a big part of it too, I think most (or many) ecdy products haven't gone through independent 3rd party lab testing to verify the raws. Most companies just rely on Certificate of Analysis from the manufacturer which is meaningless. You have to question the quality used in these studies too.
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This is actually totaly true.
I bet , and I really can bet any time , it is just FEW companies that sell real ecdysteroids and even those products are pretty underdosed.

Ecdysteroids,steroidal saponins, brassinosteroids etc have all 2 things in common and those are:

1: Purity (real quality and the right structure. The right molecular weight etc)
2: the right dosage (this is VERY important).

I have tried ecdysteroids from ICPS in higher doses and it was great.
My strength improved pretty fast, musclefullness and volume was there too.
I felt really great on it and I would deff do it again but it is very hard to get real Rhaponticum carthamoides/mixture of compounds called Levseins. Levseins are a complex of more than 10 ecdysterones including 20-beta-ecdysterone,
makisterone C, 24-dehydromakisterone A, carthamosterone, polypodyne B and
ajugasterone C. (Synergy effect).

Remember, a small change in the structure and you are getting a different compound or totaly uneffective "key"

Laxogenin is:
(25R)-3β-Hydroxy-5α-spirostan-6-one

If you change 6 with 12 then you are getting Hecogenin , which is a totaly different steroidal saponin.
(25R)-3β-hydroxy-5α-spirostan-12-one

3rd Party testing is very important and the most important for those labs is, they need to know what to look for.
 
So I do have 240 Turkesterone Tonvara. What do you suggest? 4 a day for 2 months, 6 a day for 1 1/2 months or use even more? I did it in the past for about a month at 4, and results were decent, but not out of this world in comparison to cheaper sources. Thanks
 
mbonheur said:
So I do have 240 Turkesterone Tonvara. What do you suggest? 4 a day for 2 months, 6 a day for 1 1/2 months or use even more? I did it in the past for about a month at 4, and results were decent, but not out of this world in comparison to cheaper sources. Thanks
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If you're sitting on that much I'd run it hard: 6 a day for as long as your supply lasts. Now here's the important point: Get some blood work done. What we're looking for is its effect on Red Blood Cell count. It should increase it..

Now you don't want it to get too high, as the blood will thicken. This isn't unlike folks who use Testosterone. Over time, RBC's/Hematocrit levels can build up. The simple solution would be to give blood, which is what a lot of guys on test do when this occurs.

Otherwise, I'd suggest getting blood work doing initially for a baseline, then at week 3 and 6 (if possible). Of course, you're also going to want to have objective measures of LBM/fat etc. to validate the performance enhancement aspects. How fast you can run a mile would be another good measurement..

Turk is an interesting Ecdy. It looks in the literature like the most powerful Ecdy there is. On some counts, that's true. I still prefer full spectrum Rhaponticum Carthamoides Extract, but salute you on the Turk stash :) Come to think of it, I have 4 packs myself. I'll run it later, but will be most interested in hearing about your results!
 
Ok thanks. Will not run right away, but I will keep you updated about my run at 6/day.

I already asked you, but what do you think about plain Maral root (Leuzea or RC) powder (basically the dried root which has been grinded)? Do you think it could be dosed high enough to get some results? I can buy 1 kg for 30-40€, so it would be an interesting option.
 
Mixelflick said:
If you're sitting on that much I'd run it hard: 6 a day for as long as your supply lasts. Now here's the important point: Get some blood work done. What we're looking for is its effect on Red Blood Cell count. It should increase it..

Now you don't want it to get too high, as the blood will thicken. This isn't unlike folks who use Testosterone. Over time, RBC's/Hematocrit levels can build up. The simple solution would be to give blood, which is what a lot of guys on test do when this occurs.

Otherwise, I'd suggest getting blood work doing initially for a baseline, then at week 3 and 6 (if possible). Of course, you're also going to want to have objective measures of LBM/fat etc. to validate the performance enhancement aspects. How fast you can run a mile would be another good measurement..

Turk is an interesting Ecdy. It looks in the literature like the most powerful Ecdy there is. On some counts, that's true. I still prefer full spectrum Rhaponticum Carthamoides Extract, but salute you on the Turk stash :) Come to think of it, I have 4 packs myself. I'll run it later, but will be most interested in hearing about your results!
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Glad you're back!
 
Mixelflick said:
If you're sitting on that much I'd run it hard: 6 a day for as long as your supply lasts. Now here's the important point: Get some blood work done. What we're looking for is its effect on Red Blood Cell count. It should increase it..

Now you don't want it to get too high, as the blood will thicken. This isn't unlike folks who use Testosterone. Over time, RBC's/Hematocrit levels can build up. The simple solution would be to give blood, which is what a lot of guys on test do when this occurs.

Otherwise, I'd suggest getting blood work doing initially for a baseline, then at week 3 and 6 (if possible). Of course, you're also going to want to have objective measures of LBM/fat etc. to validate the performance enhancement aspects. How fast you can run a mile would be another good measurement..


Turk is an interesting Ecdy. It looks in the literature like the most powerful Ecdy there is. On some counts, that's true. I still prefer full spectrum Rhaponticum Carthamoides Extract, but salute you on the Turk stash :) Come to think of it, I have 4 packs myself. I'll run it later, but will be most interested in hearing about your results!
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Where can we find full spectrum RC, which product?
 
I am not even sure what full spectrum means. Normally it simply leaves the natural ratios of the constituents in tact.*So it is not standardized for a certain ingredient, for instance ecdysterone.

If this is the case, then the plain root (and eventually the leaves) are full spectrum. Then it can be found at 1:1 (I like it as tea and tincture) and higher ratios 4:1, 10:1 at many places.
 
mbonheur said:
I am not even sure what full spectrum means. Normally it simply leaves the natural ratios of the constituents in tact.*So it is not standardized for a certain ingredient, for instance ecdysterone.

If this is the case, then the plain root (and eventually the leaves) are full spectrum. Then it can be found at 1:1 (I like it as tea and tincture) and higher ratios 4:1, 10:1 at many places.
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Badmonkey has 50:1 which I was considering purchasing.

Hey Mixelflick, what dosage would you recommend for a 50:1 extract? I was thinking of getting some everclear and making a tincture out of it and using this sublingually. Also, would it need bioperine or some sort of fat to be absorbed properly?
 
Grayson said:
Badmonkey has 50:1 which I was considering purchasing.

Hey Mixelflick, what dosage would you recommend for a 50:1 extract? I was thinking of getting some everclear and making a tincture out of it and using this sublingually. Also, would it need bioperine or some sort of fat to be absorbed properly?
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Some clarifications...

FULL SPECTRUM RCE: Full spectrum meaning the plant isn't over-standardized for one particular ecdysterone. You'll see various companies standardizing their product for 20 Hydroxyecdysterone for example. Unfortunately, that usually comes at the expense of other Ecdy's/beneficial compounds in the plant. Tannins or resins for example, are lost when over-standardizing. One of these tannins discourages your body's tendency to store carbs as fat. Not something you want going down the drain IMO.

Full spectrum retains what I call, "Nature's fingerprint". Nature arranged the various ecdysterones, tannins, resins etc for a specific reason. The more the hand of man meddles IMO, the worse things get.

DOSE: As for dosage of a 50:1 extract, 200mg should be enough for most strength athletes. The 95% material used by the better companies: 90-110mg/day

RCE AVAILABILITY: Not long ago there was a full spectrum RCE offered by Tonvara (the same people offering "True Turk". I'm unclear why they discontinued it. The other two outfits offering it were MASS and Thermolife, carrying Mass Pro Synthagen and E-bol, respectively. Thermolife discontinued E-bol and many other products, but still makes Pump Bol if I'm not mistaken.

LAXOGENIN/SAPOGENIN ANALOGS: Numerous Laxogenin products have hit the shelves, both oral and transdermal. They also exist as single and multiple ingredient formulas. Progenadrex is a Laxogenin product I developed, and there's at least one other dermal here (forget the name). Interestingly, some patents were filed recently on Lax for its anabolic activity, both standalone and in combination with androgens..

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BIO-AVAILABILITY

Finally, bioperine etc couldn't hurt, but they're not entirely necessary IMO either. Given the many OH groups, ecdysterones are quite soluble in water.
 
Reading further in their application, these guys are pretty savvy in the cut and paste dept. Not only did I recognize word for word verbage from previous Ecdy papers "Novel, Natural and Non-Hormonal Agents Derived From Plants" (see below), they even ripped me off insofar as citing what nutraceuticals were synergistic with Ecdy (Orotic Acid, TMG etc as found in Synthagen).

I guess imitation is the sincerest form of flattery :)

"None of the sapogenin compounds tested in humans has displayed any hormonal activity. Competitive binding inhibition studies conducted at Baylor University in Texas showed that 25R-Spirostan-3β, 5α-diol-6-one did not bind to androgen or estrogen receptors even at the limits of compound solubility. Consequently, the spirostane and spirostene compounds of the present invention are expected to be devoid of hormonal activity.
[0111]
Preliminary testing using a combination of 6-keto sapogenin derivative laxogenin (30 mg/day) and 5-androsten-3β,7β,17β-triol (30-50 mg/day) (a natural metabolite in human skin) shows a synergistic effect."
 
Hey did you see that new LG Sciences ecdy? Its called Mesobolin, it has Rhaponticum Carthamoides (100:1) Extract and Ajuga Turkestanica Extract with cyclodextrin technology.

Wish someone could test it, if its legit Id get alot of bottles.
 
ax1 said:
Hey did you see that new LG Sciences ecdy? Its called Mesobolin, it has Rhaponticum Carthamoides (100:1) Extract and Ajuga Turkestanica Extract with cyclodextrin technology.

Wish someone could test it, if its legit Id get alot of bottles.
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I have not. Would be exciting for sure. I'm happy to see they're not using CV and standardizing for 20-H, like their last offering. Here's to hoping it's a smash success. Any chance whatsoever TL brings back E-bol? :)
 
Mixelflick said:
I have not. Would be exciting for sure. I'm happy to see they're not using CV and standardizing for 20-H, like their last offering. Here's to hoping it's a smash success. Any chance whatsoever TL brings back E-bol? :)
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No logo vvv no comment, lol

Out of respect to the board owners.
 
ax1 said:
No logo vvv no comment, lol

Out of respect to the board owners.
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Understood man. I thought you still might have been in the store, but I guess not. Oh well. I know they DO have some good Ecdy products here. At least, looks that way.
 
I am hoping for that very thing. I loved Thermolife's E Bol!

Mixelflick said:
I have not. Would be exciting for sure. I'm happy to see they're not using CV and standardizing for 20-H, like their last offering. Here's to hoping it's a smash success. Any chance whatsoever TL brings back E-bol? :)
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Hockeyaus33 said:
I want to use ecdy!!!
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If you get a quality product and know what you're doing (adaptogens vs. anabolics), they're absolute gold. As you may or may not know, I wrote and Ecdy optimal use protocol, "The Blueprint". Using such, most trainees reliably add up to 1lb/week for 6-10 weeks - retained.

I've been using Ecdy since 1993, over 20 years. Everything from orals to sublinguals, transdermals and even a sterile RCE injectable (Thermolife's material/Ecdypure}. It's been much maligned in the West due to poor marketing and sub-standard sourcing. Still, it garners repeat buys. And the science keeps piling up in its favor. I could easily post half a dozen studies here (many of which now being done in Western Universities that support such. I know what it can do, what it can't and how to use it.

Here's the latest study, indicating its potential:
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Mixelflick said:
If you get a quality product and know what you're doing (adaptogens vs. anabolics), they're absolute gold. As you may or may not know, I wrote and Ecdy optimal use protocol, "The Blueprint". Using such, most trainees reliably add up to 1lb/week for 6-10 weeks - retained.

I've been using Ecdy since 1993, over 20 years. Everything from orals to sublinguals, transdermals and even a sterile RCE injectable (Thermolife's material/Ecdypure}. It's been much maligned in the West due to poor marketing and sub-standard sourcing. Still, it garners repeat buys. And the science keeps piling up in its favor. I could easily post half a dozen studies here (many of which now being done in Western Universities that support such. I know what it can do, what it can't and how to use it.

Here's the latest study, indicating its potential:
Invalid Link Removed
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Where do we buy quality ecdy?
 
Figured I'd chime in here. I began running an ecdy supp a couple weeks ago but stopped because I noticed an inability to get much of a pump after about 2 or 3 days of dosing, regardless of rep scheme, carb intake, water intake, electrolytes, etc. I recall reading that these types of supplements increase the Ca+ concentrations in the muscle cell. I figure perhaps it was a bit excessive and knocked off the rest of my electrolytes. After about 3 days off of it, my water balance returned to normal.
 
mcc23 said:
Figured I'd chime in here. I began running an ecdy supp a couple weeks ago but stopped because I noticed an inability to get much of a pump after about 2 or 3 days of dosing, regardless of rep scheme, carb intake, water intake, electrolytes, etc. I recall reading that these types of supplements increase the Ca+ concentrations in the muscle cell. I figure perhaps it was a bit excessive and knocked off the rest of my electrolytes. After about 3 days off of it, my water balance returned to normal.
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What supp was it? If you don't feel comfortable disclosing which one, can you post a label? I'm curious to see if any other ingredients could have been the culprit.
 
Interesting I am pumped up like hell using it together with Tropinol at the moment. I have never noticed a reduced pump during Ecdy supplementation
 
Not all ecdy is created the same, there have been numerous quality and labeling issues when it comes to ecdy for years.

Personally, I cant truly verify this with my own labs, but I trust MASS supplements with the real deal ecdy.
 
ax1 said:
Not all ecdy is created the same, there have been numerous quality and labeling issues when it comes to ecdy for years.

Personally, I cant truly verify this with my own labs, but I trust MASS supplements with the real deal ecdy.
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Whats the name of MASS supplement's ecdy product?
 
ax1 said:
Yup, above posted it. Not just ecdy...its very expensive the the formula is golden.
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Thanks guys, much appreciated.

I formulated it, MASS sells it so that's the relationship. As the centerpiece ingredient, every other compound is designed to amplify or extend the duration of RCE's attributes. Protein synthesis, glycogen storage, cortisol control and cellular energy restoration. The "backbone" of the formula is a specific ratio of EAA's, leading to a (very) rapid increase in protein synthesis. The other ingredients (taurine, beta-alanine and orotic acid) focus on elevating ATP and carsosine stores simultaneously. OA goes even further by re-cycling that ATP 3 different ways. TMG is included given the fact it's a superb methyl donor, and keeps the protein synthetic machinery chugging away. It also contains an ingredient that improves blood flow for up to 6 hours, ensuring all the goods get to their target tissues.

Finally, we use Mg Asparate. The results of one study showed that the oral magnesium supplementation group produced significantly greater results in strength than the control group. The researchers also concluded that magnesium's role in protein synthesis may be at the ribosomal level**.

** Given Magnesium's role in protein synthesis appears to act primarily by activating amino acids and attaching mRNA to the ribosome, optimal Magnesium levels in athletes using Ecdysterone is absolutely critical. Like Magnesium, Ecdysterone speeds up activity in the ribosome, again from available amino acids.

And no, it isn't cheap. But it does work like nothing else..

My 5cc's
 
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