Finally free! First time with the real thing!

lifted67

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How is strength?
 
Devildog_

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Skyrocketed until I dropped DMZ and has slowly evened out in the 2 weeks since I dropped it. However being in such a steep calorie deficit it is doing quite well.

Bench I'm hitting 315 for 3
Squat 425 X 3

But biggest note to me is I can easily keep up volume and intensity which is such an awesome feeling without food
 
lifted67

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**** dude those are serious numbers, my 1RM for bench is 315 and my highest squat is 355x2, you're killing it. Making me question if I even lift bro?! Lol
 
Devildog_

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Haha a year or so ago I was hitting 315 for 6 on bench and 455 for 3 on squat. Tore my patella at a special operations school, then 3 months ago herniated 2 discs in my back. So I'm making a slow comeback haha
 
lifted67

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if this is "comeback" your peak will be deadlifting semi tires.
 
pogue

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I don't understand why everyone wants to use AIs on their cycles. Estrogen is a good thing, unless you are sensitive to gyno. It has many positive effects on a cycle, not just related to cholesterol and joint help, but it increases IGF/GH and glycogen storage.

Avoid Aromatase Inhibitors. Aromatase-inhibiting drugs counter estrogenic side effects by preventing the production of estrogen in the body. While an effective practice, they also deprive the body of a hormone that is important to cardiovascular health. In particular, estrogen supports the production of good (HDL) cholesterol, which means that aromatase inhibitors may inadvertently increase the cardiovascular strain of a steroid cycle. If estrogenic side effects are apparent and a reduction or elimination of the offending steroid(s) is not considered an option, the SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator) drug Nolvadex could be used instead. This drug offers partial estrogenic action in the liver, which may allow
it to counterer estrogenic side effects without the same negative shift in cholesterol.
Source: Anabolics E-Book Edition by William Llewellyn 2011

Anyone remember Proviron (Mesterolone)? It inhibits E by blocking aromatase and it also takes up a large amount of SHBG so it can leave testosterone and other AAS free to connect to the AR. It's lost it's popularity in recent years because everyone thinks AIs are the way to go, but AIs should be an absolutely last ditch resort for either highly estrogenic compounds or people who are super sensitive to the effects of estrogen (and in that case, running testosterone would be highly questionable at best).
 
Devildog_

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Your second sentence answered your question... And i'll take decades of peoples advice over a random guy on a forum no offense
 
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ImageUploadedByAnabolicMinds1463947429.992191.jpg


Current pic. Will have to have the wife take a better quality one later.

Taking progress measurements tomorrow.
 
pogue

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Your second sentence answered your question... And i'll take decades of peoples advice over a random guy on a forum no offense
Are you referring to me? If so, I have no idea what you mean.
 
pogue

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That he's gyno prone
Devildog_ is gyno prone? I didn't see that mentioned anywhere in this thread. Even if so, I would choose Nolvadex over an AI. There have been many, many studies showing tamoxifen is helping at reducing/treating gyno. Then, you have the positive effects of keeping HDL high while on Nolva, while AI's reduce that advantage completely and cause LDL to skyrocket.
 
Dma378

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Devildog_ is gyno prone? I didn't see that mentioned anywhere in this thread. Even if so, I would choose Nolvadex over an AI. There have been many, many studies showing tamoxifen is helping at reducing/treating gyno. Then, you have the positive effects of keeping HDL high while on Nolva, while AI's reduce that advantage completely and cause LDL to skyrocket.
He didn't. He said that you answered the question about why use an AI with your second sentence. Which mentions being gyno prone.
 
pogue

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He didn't. He said that you answered the question about why use an AI with your second sentence. Which mentions being gyno prone.
I still don't follow what you mean exactly. If this is someone's first cycle, they'll have no idea if they're sensitive to estrogen and thus prone to gyno. I typically recommend someone keep an AI on hand during their first cycle, but there's no need to take it ED or EOD to reduce estrogen, because estrogen is a good compound to have circulating in the body during a cycle.
 
Dma378

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I still don't follow what you mean exactly. If this is someone's first cycle, they'll have no idea if they're sensitive to estrogen and thus prone to gyno. I typically recommend someone keep an AI on hand during their first cycle, but there's no need to take it ED or EOD to reduce estrogen, because estrogen is a good compound to have circulating in the body during a cycle.
This is his first injectable cycle. He has run Trest and DMZ at least once.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3134227/
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/05/110526114533.htm
http://www.bodylogicmd.com/for-men/irritable-men-syndrome/

For every positive there is a negative. For a few extra pounds and some strength, I don't feel like excess estrogen is worth it. Is some good yes. But Nolva doesn't provide that balance. An AI at the PROPER dose does.
 
Devildog_

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Came across that first one myself. And I agree. Plus I see 0 point in the minimal additional glycogen and strength. All that glycogen will vanish post cycle anyway.

I'll stick doing it the way I do it. Not trying to **** myself up in anyway
 
pogue

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You're free to run your cycle how you want, but I'll just leave this here (another quote from Llewellyn's book) as food for thought)

I'll hope you'll go through and read this, even though it is a bit long, it's worth it to learn how AAS act in the body, rather than just demonizing a hormone because you don't understand it's benefits. In the end, it's your cycle and you can run it how you want, but you have to ask yourself how much more you could have made in gains if you hadn't blocked the conversion to estrogen.

We must, however, not be led into thinking that estrogen serves no benefit. It is actually a desirable hormone in many regards. Athletes have known for years that estrogenic steroids are the best mass builders, but it is only recently that we are finally coming to understand the underlying mechanisms why. It appears that reasons go beyond the simple size, weight, and strength increases that one would attribute to estrogen-related waterretention, with this hormone actually having a direct effect on the process of anabolism. This is manifest through increases in glucose utilization, growth hormone secretion, and androgen receptor proliferation.

Glucose Utilization and Estrogen

Estrogen may playa very important role in the promotion of an anabolic state by affecting glucose utilization in muscle tissue. This occurs via an altering of the level of available glucose 6-phosphate dehydrogenase, an enzyme directly tied to the use of glucose for muscle tissue growth and recuperation. More specifically, G6PD is a vital part of the pentose phosphate pathway, which is integral in determining the rate nucleic acids and lipids are to be synthesized in cells for tissue repair. During the period of regeneration after skeletal muscle damage, levels of G6PD are shown to rise dramatically, which is believed to represent a mechanism for the body to enhance recovery when needed. Surprisingly, we find that estrogen is directly tied to the level of G6PD that is to be made available to cells in this recovery window. The link between estrogen and G6PD was established in a study demonstrating levels of this dehydrogenase enzyme to rise after administration of testosterone propionate. The investigation further showed that the
aromatization of testosterone to estradiol was directly responsible for this increase, and not the androgenic action of this steroid. The non-aromatizable steroids dihydrotestosterone and fluoxymesterone were tested alongside testosterone propionate, but failed to duplicate the effect of testosterone. Furthermore, the positive effect of testosterone propionate was blocked when the aromatase inhibitor 4-hydroxyandrostenedione (formestane) was added, while 17-beta estradiol administration alone caused a similar increase in G6PD to testosterone propionate.The inactive estrogen isomer 17* alpha estradiol, which is unable to bind the estrogen receptor, failed to do anything. Further tests using testosterone propionate and the anti-androgen flutamide showed that this drug also did nothing to block the positive action of testosterone, establishing it as an effect independent of the androgen receptor.

Estrogen and GH/IGF·l

Estrogen may also play an important role in the production of growth hormone and IGF-1. IGF-1 (insulin like growth factor) is an anabolic hormone released in the liver and various peripheral tissues via the stimulus of growth hormone (See Drug Profiles: Growth Hormone).
IGF-1 is responsible for the anabolic activity of growth hormone such as increased nitrogen retention/protein synthesis and cell hyperplasia (proliferation). One of the first studies to bring this issue to our attention looked at the effects of the anti-estrogen tamoxifen on IGF-1 levels, demonstrating it to have a suppressive effect. A second, perhaps more noteworthy, study took place in 1993, which looked at the effects of testosterone replacement therapy on GH and IGF-1 levels alone, and compared them to the effects of testosterone combined again with tamoxifen. When tamoxifen was given, GH and IGF-l levels were notably suppressed, while both values were elevated with the administration of testosterone enanthate alone. Another study has shown 300 mg of testosterone enanthate weekly to cause a slight IGF-l increase in normal men. Here the 300 mg of testosterone ester caused an elevation of estradiol levels, which would be expected at such a dose. This was compared to the effect of the same dosage of nandrolone decanoate; however, this steroid failed to produce the same increase. This result is quite interesting, especially when we note that estrogen levels were actually lowered when this steroid was given. Yet another demonstrated that GH and IGF-l secretion is increased with testosterone administration on males with delayed puberty, while dihydrotestosterone (non-aromatizable) seems to
suppress GH and IGF-l secretion.

Estrogen and the Androgen Receptor

It has also been demonstrated that estrogen can increase the concentration of androgen receptors in certain tissues. This was shown in studies with rats, which looked at the effects of estrogen on cellular androgen receptors in animals that underwent orchiectomy (removal of testes, often done to diminish endogenous androgen production). According to the study, administration of estrogen resulted in a striking 4800/0 increase in methyltrienolone (a potent oral androgen often used to reference receptor binding in studies) binding in the levator ani muscle. The suggested explanation is that estrogen must either be directly stimulating androgen receptor production, or perhaps diminishing the rate of receptor breakdown. Although the growth of the levator ani muscle is commonly used as a reference for the anabolic activity of steroid compounds, it is admittedly a sex organ muscle, and different from skeletal muscle tissue in that it possesses a much higher concentration of androgen receptors. This study, however, did look at the effect of estrogen in fast-twitch skeletal muscle tissues (tibialis anterior and extensor digitorum longus) as well, but did not note the same increase as the levator ani. Although discouraging at first glance, the fact that estrogen can increase androgen receptor binding in any tissue remains an extremely significant finding, especially in light of the fact that we now know androgens to have some positive effects on muscle growth that are mediated outside of muscle tissue.

Estrogen and Fatigue

"Steroid Fatigue" is a common catchphrase these days, and refers to another important function of estrogen in both the male and female body, namely its ability to promote wakefulness and a mentally alert state. Given the common availability of potent third-generation aromatase inhibitors, bodybuilders today are (at times) noticing more extreme estrogen suppression than they had in the past. Often associated with this suppression is fatigue. Under such conditions, the athlete, though on a productive cycle of drugs, may not be able to maximize his or her gains due to an inability to train at full vigor.This effect is sometimes also dubbed "steroid lethargy." The reason is that estrogen plays an important supporting role in the activity of serotonin. Serotonin is one of the body's principle neurotransmitters, vital to mental alertness and the sleep/wake cycle. Interference with this neurotransmitter is also associated with chronic fatigue syndrome, so we can see how vital it is to fatigue specifically. Estrogen suppression in menopause has also been associated with fatigue, as has the clinical use of newer (more potent) aromatase inhibitors like anastrozole, letrozole, exemestane, and fadrozole in some patients. These things may be important to consider when planning your next cycle. Although not everyone notices this problem when estrogen is low, for those that do, a little testosterone or estrogen can go a long way in correcting this. It is also of note that the use of strictly non-aromatizable steroids sometimes causes this effect as well, likely due to the suppression of natural testosterone production (cutting off the main substrate
used by the male body to make estrogen).

Anti-Estrogens and the Athlete

So what does this all mean to the bodybuilder looking to gain optimal size? Basically I think it calls for a cautious approach to the use of estrogen maintenance drugs if mass is the key objective (things change, of course, if we are talking about cutting). Obviously, anti-estrogens should be used if there is a clear need for them due to the onset of estrogenic side effects, or at the very least, the drugs being administered should be substituted for nonestrogenic compounds. Gynecomastia is certainly an unwanted problem for the steroid user, as are noticeable fat mass gains. But if these problems have not presented themselves, the added estrogen due to a cycle of testosterone or Dianabol, for example, might indeed be aiding in the buildup of muscle mass, or keeping you energetic. An individual confident they will notice, or are not prone to getting, estrogenic side effects, may therefore want to hold off using estrogen maintenance drugs so as to achieve the maximum possible gains in tissue mass
Source: Anabolics E-Book Edition by William Llewellyn 2011 (This version of the above text was quoted from the Anabolics 9th Edition, which for some strange reason is listed as selling for $900 on Amazon. But the $10 eBook version of the text is well worth the purchase too. I guess I have a very expensive book in my possession, it's even autographed by the author himself!)


Finally, from Big Cat's "The Sane cycle: safe and effective use of steroids"

As we mentioned already, testosterone is a substrate for the aromatase enzyme and converts to E2. A female hormone. Here too demonisation has made E2 the enemy. And yet again we are overlooking several factors. First of all, bloat, fat gain and gyno occur only at very high concentrations of E2, something we should be able to avoid if we are sane with our doses. And if not, we have numerous anti-aromatase drugs at our disposal, of which I favour Mesterolone (Proviron ) as it is a DHT analogue, will increase free testosterone and does not block E2 entirely in low doses, so we still reap the benefits. So what are the benefits of E2 ? Well, estrogen enhances gluconeogenesis (use of glucose for tissue repair and energy storage) , increases the release of human Growth Hormone and can increase androgen receptor upregulation (E2 makes testosterone more effective as an androgen)


Also, please get blood work after to make sure your HDL and LDL levels are in check. Since Nolvadex would be a far superior choice in lieu of an AI for cholesterol, you would hope your cholesterol levels would return naturally to their normal levels post cycle, but it can add over time to arterial plaque over a lifetime and if you choose to keep running cycles, it may eventually cause problems.

Finally, I have to ask, if you are so concerned with estrogen, why even bother running aromatizing steroids? There are plenty of better options out there for AAS that don't aromatize and work great as mass builders. It's like taking one of the main benefits of the steroids and just throwing the baby out with the bathwater out of an unfounded fear.
 
pogue

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This is his first injectable cycle. He has run Trest and DMZ at least once.
Anyone who makes the choice to run AAS will always have to test the waters with an aromatizing compound and determine whether or not we are sensitive. Although it's wise to keep an rx anti-estrogen on hand during our first cycle, not just for PCT but for emergencies like gyno or if you feel you're getting too much bloat, I also recommend having finasteride on hand during a first cycle for the same reason. It just doesn't make sense to just run an anti-estrogen throughout an entire first cycle because you're scared of a compound in which you don't have any idea how you'll react to it.

Although estrogen has been linked to BPH, in reality the truth is much harder to figure out. What causes it is essentially still a mystery.

Benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH) is a disease of unknown etiology ...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12032329

It's also been theorized that VEGF, a signal protein is solely responsible for BPH formation. VEGF doesn't seem to be activated by testosterone or estrogen, but more likely by DHT, which is what has been the most accepted theory of BPH formation for a long time (eg: high DHT levels cause prostate growth, this is why drugs like finasteride and dutasteride are prescribed for treatment of BPH, as opposed to anti-estrogens)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14673953
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12201932

But, this is getting way off topic.
This may very well be true, but remember, we are looking at acute raising of estrogen levels, not chronic. 8-12 weeks is not a chronic estrogen increase. These types of studies are looked at for women who are using estrogen replacement therapy for years, not an AAS user who runs testosterone for a short period. However, I do recommend in many, many threads that AAS users buy and use a blood pressure monitor daily to keep track of their BP levels. Androgens can increase BP highly, even without the addition of estrogen.

You can read my entire writeup on helping to prevent cardiovascular problems on cycle in this thread here: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/281497-cycle-heart-support.html#post5370240

I just had to laugh at this one "Irritable Men Syndrome"
smileyslaughing_lol_dielaughing_100-101.gif


For every positive there is a negative. For a few extra pounds and some strength, I don't feel like excess estrogen is worth it. Is some good yes. But Nolva doesn't provide that balance. An AI at the PROPER dose does.
AIs have more negatives than positives when comparing to SERMs.
 
Dma378

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Anyone who makes the choice to run AAS will always have to test the waters with an aromatizing compound and determine whether or not we are sensitive. Although it's wise to keep an rx anti-estrogen on hand during our first cycle, not just for PCT but for emergencies like gyno or if you feel you're getting too much bloat, I also recommend having finasteride on hand during a first cycle for the same reason. It just doesn't make sense to just run an anti-estrogen throughout an entire first cycle because you're scared of a compound in which you don't have any idea how you'll react to it.



Although estrogen has been linked to BPH, in reality the truth is much harder to figure out. What causes it is essentially still a mystery.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12032329

It's also been theorized that VEGF, a signal protein is solely responsible for BPH formation. VEGF doesn't seem to be activated by testosterone or estrogen, but more likely by DHT, which is what has been the most accepted theory of BPH formation for a long time (eg: high DHT levels cause prostate growth, this is why drugs like finasteride and dutasteride are prescribed for treatment of BPH, as opposed to anti-estrogens)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14673953
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12201932

But, this is getting way off topic.


This may very well be true, but remember, we are looking at acute raising of estrogen levels, not chronic. 8-12 weeks is not a chronic estrogen increase. These types of studies are looked at for women who are using estrogen replacement therapy for years, not an AAS user who runs testosterone for a short period. However, I do recommend in many, many threads that AAS users buy and use a blood pressure monitor daily to keep track of their BP levels. Androgens can increase BP highly, even without the addition of estrogen.

You can read my entire writeup on helping to prevent cardiovascular problems on cycle in this thread here: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/281497-cycle-heart-support.html#post5370240



I just had to laugh at this one "Irritable Men Syndrome" View attachment 135840



AIs have more negatives than positives when comparing to SERMs.
Sir, you seem to be having a hard enough time managing your OTC cycle. Maybe you should take some of this guy's advice. And the irritable syndrome was simply to make a point. Emotional roller-coaster is no fun with high E2.

You seem to just like to argue, you get lost in the conversation (I've seen it a couple times), and it's your way or no way. I've put on nearly 40lbs. of LBM in 2.5 years and have used an AI every time. AT THE PROPER DOSE. NO ONE IS SUGGESTING CRUSHING ESTROGEN

I think you need to get on Daniel's BP and E2 protocol, your cycle would probably go way smoother bud.
 
Dma378

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I'm on 500mg Tren, 500 Mast and 200 Test, I take stims and the occasional bit of ephedrine and my BP has never exceeded 133/71 with a pulse averaging 65-70

All on my stupid Aspirin, Hawthorne Berry and Cialis


....awaiting more scientific study links....
 
Dma378

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Sorry Devildog, I'm done with it. Keep up the good work bro. Feeling good? Keep doing what you're doing!!

Some dude's just want to argue and bring you down. This guy having a bad enough time managing a PH cycle and wants to come in here and tell you what to do. GTFO
 
Devildog_

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Sorry Devildog, I'm done with it. Keep up the good work bro. Feeling good? Keep doing what you're doing!!

Some dude's just want to argue and bring you down. This guy having a bad enough time managing a PH cycle and wants to come in here and tell you what to do. GTFO
No worries bro it actually brought some good life to this thread. Nice to have someone in my corner is well.

I feel great and the gains are great. I'm not gonna take the advice of some random schmuck over years and years of people studying and saying something else.

Last thing I want is gyno so eff this guy.
 
pogue

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Sir, you seem to be having a hard enough time managing your OTC cycle.
Bear in mind I'm using a completely new experimental compound with one study titled "Prohormone supplement 3-hydroxy-5-androst-1-en-17-one enhances resistance training gains but impairs user health".

Further, your ad hominem attack against me is completely unwarranted. I'm presenting the facts to you by well respected researchers and scientists in the industry. Why not instead of criticizing me, try to argue against the science.


Maybe you should take some of this guy's advice. And the irritable syndrome was simply to make a point. Emotional roller-coaster is no fun with high E2.
Are there any actual studies showing elevated estrogen cycles in men lead to depression/irritation/etc? The site you quoted that from is a site that SELLS TESTOSTERONE REPLACEMENT THERAPY. So, I wouldn't say they are the most reliable source on the subject.

You seem to just like to argue, you get lost in the conversation (I've seen it a couple times), and it's your way or no way. I've put on nearly 40lbs. of LBM in 2.5 years and have used an AI every time. AT THE PROPER DOSE. NO ONE IS SUGGESTING CRUSHING ESTROGEN
I don't come here to brag about my gains or use them to justify because I've put on X amount of weight I know more about something than someone else. That kind of braggadocio just makes you sound arrogant. Size & strength ≠ knowledge.

If you think I like to argue, maybe that's true. I simply disagree with your choice to use an AI on a cycle and think it's a very bad decision. But all I'm doing here is presenting the facts as backed up by research and studies. If you disagree with them, that's your right to do so. If you are sensitive to estrogen, then I would say running an AI during your cycles would be a wise choice. If not, imagine how much more gains you potentially could have had if you hadn't run the AI all the way through.

But again, I'd like to ask the following questions:

  1. Knowing the advantages of Nolvadex in regards to cholesterol (at the bare minimum, one of it's primary advantages), why not use it instead of an AI?
  2. If you are sensitive to estrogenic steroids, why use them instead of ones that either don't convert to estrogen or do so at a significantly lower amount?
  3. Have you ever gotten a blood test during a cycle to see actually how much your estrogen levels are converting to before adding the AI in? (Eg: Do you even need it?)
Disclaimer: I don't know what you used on your past cycles.

But I be curious what your cholesterol levels look like, your blood pressure and other factors from your most recent blood panel.

I think you need to get on Daniel's BP and E2 protocol, your cycle would probably go way smoother bud.
Link me to it and I'll take a look.
 
Dma378

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It's cool, you already clowned it. Because you couldn't find the right study I guess. And I can't debate with you, you miss the point of things if they weren't completely spelled out.

i.e. Me explaining my gains while using an AI. It was not meant to brag.

But like I said I'm done in this guys' log. You're right, I'm wrong, the end.
 
pogue

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No worries bro it actually brought some good life to this thread. Nice to have someone in my corner is well.

I feel great and the gains are great. I'm not gonna take the advice of some random schmuck over years and years of people studying and saying something else.

Last thing I want is gyno so eff this guy.
I don't like to come here and just spout off like I'm some kind of badass pro who comes to forums to challenge people in things I know nothing about but pretend like I do, but if you think I don't know what I'm talking about, then I'll just give you a few of my credentials.

I've been a moderator on bodybuilding.com since 2002, many of those years on the steroids section until they closed it down when they got bought out. I've written articles for supplement companies on androgens, prohormones, designer steroids and etc. I'll post just a few.

https://blog.priceplow.com/prohormones/1-andro
https://blog.priceplow.com/prohormones/19-nor-dhea
https://blog.priceplow.com/prohormones/equibolin
http://pogue972.blogspot.com/2007/08/archive-methyl-hydroxy-testosterone.html
http://pogue972.blogspot.com/2007/08/archive-methyl-hydroxy-nandrolone-mohn.html

I've also previously worked for LG (back when it was called Legal Gear) doing R&D, working on their website, running their forum and etc, as well as a few other companies that sold PHs that went out of business when the ban came into effect in 2005. None of this I would have even mentioned in this thread if I hadn't been called out for being called "some random schmuck".

All I'm hear to do is try to impart on you my years of knowledge based on a foundation of research and study and maybe give you an alternative opinion to your own. Just maybe to look at how you're doing things and get you to change your opinion. I take part in civil conversionations, and never once called either of you idiots or morons or said you were stupid for your opinions or decisions. I think that's a very childish way to take part in an educated discussion on topics like these.

I try to live my life as a skeptic, using the concept of Carl Sagan from his book The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

This is from his "Baloney Detection Kit" from chapter 12 of the book.

  1. Wherever possible there must be independent confirmation of the “facts.”
  2. Encourage substantive debate on the evidence by knowledgeable proponents of all points of view.
  3. Arguments from authority carry little weight — “authorities” have made mistakes in the past. They will do so again in the future. Perhaps a better way to say it is that in science there are no authorities; at most, there are experts.
  4. Spin more than one hypothesis. If there’s something to be explained, think of all the different ways in which it could be explained. Then think of tests by which you might systematically disprove each of the alternatives. What survives, the hypothesis that resists disproof in this Darwinian selection among “multiple working hypotheses,” has a much better chance of being the right answer than if you had simply run with the first idea that caught your fancy.
  5. Try not to get overly attached to a hypothesis just because it’s yours. It’s only a way station in the pursuit of knowledge. Ask yourself why you like the idea. Compare it fairly with the alternatives. See if you can find reasons for rejecting it. If you don’t, others will.
  6. Quantify. If whatever it is you’re explaining has some measure, some numerical quantity attached to it, you’ll be much better able to discriminate among competing hypotheses. What is vague and qualitative is open to many explanations. Of course there are truths to be sought in the many qualitative issues we are obliged to confront, but finding them is more challenging.
  7. If there’s a chain of argument, every link in the chain must work (including the premise) — not just most of them.
  8. Occam’s Razor. This convenient rule-of-thumb urges us when faced with two hypotheses that explain the data equally well to choose the simpler.
  9. Always ask whether the hypothesis can be, at least in principle, falsified. Propositions that are untestable, unfalsifiable are not worth much. Consider the grand idea that our Universe and everything in it is just an elementary particle — an electron, say — in a much bigger Cosmos. But if we can never acquire information from outside our Universe, is not the idea incapable of disproof? You must be able to check assertions out. Inveterate skeptics must be given the chance to follow your reasoning, to duplicate your experiments and see if they get the same result.

But, if that's a little too complex for you, I'll just leave this quote here from Urban Dictionary:

Broscience

Broscience is the predominant brand of reasoning in bodybuilding circles where the anecdotal reports of jacked dudes are considered more credible than scientific research.

Broscience in action:

"Bro, you gotta slam 40-60 grams of waxy maize plus 20 grams of BCAA within 7 seconds of finishing your last set of squat rack curls. Otherwise, you'll go straight catabolic."
 
pogue

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I don't know if I should bother replying to you or not if you aren't willing to debate anymore, but I'll go ahead and reply anyway.

Because you couldn't find the right study I guess.
No idea what you're referring to here. The right study on what? Are you trying to be facetious or sarcastic?

And I can't debate with you, you miss the point of things if they weren't completely spelled out.
If you say so. I'd call that easy way out of trying to prove your point.

i.e. Me explaining my gains while using an AI. It was not meant to brag.
Sure didn't sound that way.

But like I said I'm done in this guys' log. You're right, I'm wrong, the end.
If you give up on an argument, there's really nothing more I can say or do. But all I saw from you was you claiming you made gains while using AIs, two mostly irrelevant studies on the subject, and one completely spurious article. If that's the best you got, then I'd say that's a pretty poor way of validating your claims.
 
Dma378

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Respect for the Demon Haunted World Reference. You'll see by my profile I'm a Sagan fan. And a science advocate. But there's more to this than this study or that. And while you may say my claim of gains comes off as arrogant, I call you out on your own cognitive dissonance.
 
Devildog_

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I appreciate your input pogue and you're name haha but I disagree with what you're saying and will not be switching anything up.
 
pogue

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Respect for the Demon Haunted World Reference. You'll see by my profile I'm a Sagan fan. And a science advocate. But there's more to this than this study or that. And while you may say my claim of gains comes off as arrogant, I call you out on your own cognitive dissonance.
I contend it's totally possible I'm wrong, but I don't come at this argument with anecdotal evidence. Peer reviewed studies > anecdotal evidence 100% of the time.

If you have newer information than what I have showing AIs are superior to tamoxifen or that running them on an AAS cycle imparts benefits beyond then I would absolutely look at that. But I will never use anecdotal evidence above a study. If you look at my 1AD and 19nor articles, I quote the very few studies available and offer people to submit cycle logs and use the free PricePlow blood testing offer to validate whether or not they work as advertised. When there aren't studies available on new compounds that haven't been around for years, I will look at anecdotal feedback. But beyond that, never.

AIs have been out long enough that we should be able to verify and quantify whether or not they are superior, and I have quite a backlog of studies on tamoxifen I haven't read that I'm going to use for an article I've been commissioned to write for PricePlow on prevent androgenic and estrogenic side effects during a cycle.
 
pogue

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Get the **** off my thread already *******
Maybe if Dma378 wants, we could start a new thread on this topic in the Anabolics section with what we've posted so far and continue it from there so we won't clog up this guy's log anymore.

I appreciate your input pogue and you're name haha but I disagree with what you're saying and will not be switching anything up.
That's your prerogative. All I ask is you keep an open mind and take the time to read the stuff I've posted, especially from William Llewellyn, who I consider one of the leading experts in the field of AAS.
 
pogue

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I started a new thread to continue this discussion so Devildog_ can continue loggins his progress without me and Dma378 clogging up his log with our discussion on the merits or detriments of using an AI during a cycle.

Is Running an AI during a cycle detrimental to gains? Continuation from other thread

Both of you are welcome to come continue the discussion, and I apologize to you, Devildog_ for flooding your thread with my posts. But, I want you to know my intentions were in your best interest to convince you to change your mind and help not only to improve your health, but get better gains. However, you are, of course, free to disregard my advice and continue doing what you're doing.

Best of luck on your cycle and no hard feelings between you or Dma378
 
Dma378

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^^^ I'm on Tren bruh, perhaps a bit touchy....but hard feelings naaaa
 
Devildog_

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Update.

Switched to low bar squats recently due to my back.

Did a 6x8 yesterday back squat

255
275
295
315
325
325

Then hit a 3x8 front squat with 225.

Safe to safe even on poverty macros strength is going up.

Thinking about adding some clen in for the last couple weeks. Decided winny was too expensive. Then again maybe i'll just coast with the test because so far so good
 
Devildog_

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My fitness director asked me what I was taking today
 
lifted67

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my shrink and my wife knows I'm on/was on pro hormones lol, and you guys too of course
 
Devildog_

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Yeah my wife knows, but I don't want my boss to know haha
 
lifted67

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Speaking of classic quotes I've been getting consistent and deep chest pumps for the first time in years, "it's like I'm always cumming." Lmao
 
Devildog_

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Update

Switched up my lifting routine to undulating periodiZation and I absolutely love it

However in the last 3 weeks the intensity and volume has completely destroyed me. Gonna take 5 days off.

Have 1 pin left, upped the last 2 to half a gram each.

Strength has diminished a bit with the hypertrophy program, size is good though. Weight is 218. Arms up to 18.5

Will update regularly through PCT. last pin will be Sunday this week. Pictures to come soon
 
Devildog_

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Well cycle finished a week ago today. Still feel pretty good but I'm gearing up for that post cycle depression.

Only running clomid to start PCT, just want to see how it goes. Pct starts next Saturday.

Woof.
 

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