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I'm on Phosphatidic acid Ya'll

mbonheur said:
Yeah, basically do I need to take it also on non-workout days? I'm doing it right now, but I guess I never really thought about it in detail. If it can save me a few bucks...
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Definitely worth taking it everyday.
You want to be in anabolic state everyday :)
 
Danes said:
Its no need to cycle PA at all. But I do take 1 month off after a long run just to remind me how crap it is without it :D
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This. I always end up stopping it for a while, and then make much better progress when I'm back on it. It makes me ask myself why I ever stopped taking it in the first place, haha.
 
How would the indications change if I took Hydromax instead of some GMS powder? Could I take a formula like Ergonine for example, which already contains some hydromax and carnitine?
 
You may be thinking about ArA that some couple with GMS and carnitine. Soy lecithin can and is used in place of GMS as an emulsifier for ArA. HydroMax does not replace either for above purpose though.

A bit late on that, but I cycle PA because it stops working for me after 2 months. I'm starting 1.5g from Phospha Muscle 5 times a week this week to see how it goes like that for me.
 
Thanks for your reply. So Hydromax cannot be used for its emulsifying properties, good to know. I'll use some PA instead of GMS.

And I'm sorry, I just figured out that I posted in the wrong thread (I wanted to put this in the ArA Thread)
 
I know it has been addressed, can't find the thread. Wife says I stink like fish, quick research and soy lecithin matches that. Any other experience out there? I take about 4 teaspoons a day. If I lower can it go away? I like the booty over the pump so wtf?
 
mase1 said:
I know it has been addressed, can't find the thread. Wife says I stink like fish, quick research and soy lecithin matches that. Any other experience out there? I take about 4 teaspoons a day. If I lower can it go away? I like the booty over the pump so wtf?
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I've never experienced this myself, but a high Choline diet is known to cause this. Lower your intake of choline and this should go away on its own.

P.S. SL has high choline content....which also aids in fat loss among other things.
 
mase1 said:
Will drop dosage and see,I guess. Lol.
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Yeah I mean I've gone as high as 7 tbsp per day of SL....not to mention the choline in Conqu3r etc....and never had an issue. BUT, it is indeed a known issue with high choline intake. Only option is to take a step back on the dosing.

***EDIT*** You meant "tablespoons" right? Cause 4 tsp is NOT going to cause issues.
 
Yes tablespoons. Really enjoying, so this is disappointing. Waiting for someone else who had this issue?
 
mase1 said:
Yes tablespoons. Really enjoying, so this is disappointing. Waiting for someone else who had this issue?
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You also supplementing with betaine and/or any carnitine salts as well?

Supplementing with riboflavin (B2) MAY help (it does with betaine).
 
mase1 said:
Yes, 2.5 tmg and 2g carnitine. So you think it might be any of the 3 now? Including soy lecithin?
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Those doses dont appear too excessive, so unless there is some sort of combination effect going on Id think kboxer is right and its the choline.

If you are reluctant to decreare soyl, maybe research riboflavin. The caveat is I do not know myself if its utility here is limited to just betaine or if it will help if choline is the culprit.
 
Thanks for the help, yeah did not think dosage was too high. Think maybe combo? Have used separate and don't recall any issues.
 
mase1 said:
Thanks for the help, yeah did not think dosage was too high. Think maybe combo? Have used separate and don't recall any issues.
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If youve used all 3 seperately and at the doses you are currently running without issue then hmmm, that would seem to indicate a possible combo-effect?

In lieu of someone coming in and claiming running an additional ingredient-X will minimise your current symptoms without having to decrease any dosing then yeah, looks like you are going to have to drop something. Hope its an easy choice!
 
Danes said:
Its no need to cycle PA at all. But I do take 1 month off after a long run just to remind me how crap it is without it :D
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Yeah, I stopped it for just 1-2 weeks and restarted it today and I can already tell a difference in fullness/definition.

Question though, how do we know that PA's effects don't diminish with time?
 
Justlooking5 said:
Yeah, I stopped it for just 1-2 weeks and restarted it today and I can already tell a difference in fullness/definition.

Question though, how do we know that PA's effects don't diminish with time?
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It will not diminish with time. Some people get used to the effect and believe it does not work properly after lets say 2 month of use. PA will still work even 6month of use and longer you take it, better results you will get
 
Danes said:
It will not diminish with time. Some people get used to the effect and believe it does not work properly after lets say 2 month of use. PA will still work even 6month of use and longer you take it, better results you will get
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This. After a while it may not seem like it's really "working," but it seems that, for me, it's more that I just get used to the increased rate of progression with PA, so it feels like a new baseline (normal). Until I stop taking it and realize "wow, this stuff really works!" and start taking it again that is. At this point, I'd say it's a staple supplement for me (up there with creatine and betaine) that can really be taken year-round. Stuff works!
 
Danes said:
It will not diminish with time. Some people get used to the effect and believe it does not work properly after lets say 2 month of use. PA will still work even 6month of use and longer you take it, better results you will get
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How do we know that though?
 
muscleupcrohn said:
What makes you think it would stop working?
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I'm not making the claim that it will stop working. It's not up to me to prove the claim. I'm saying, if it is asserted that PA will not stop working no matter how long you take it, why are you making that claim? How do you know?

As for why you might THINK it would stop/reduce effect with time... uh, that's what happens with many substances. Tell me you're still getting the same caffeine buzz at the same dose now as when you first drank coffee.
 
Justlooking5 said:
I'm not making the claim that it will stop working. It's not up to me to prove the claim. I'm saying, if it is asserted that PA will not stop working no matter how long you take it, why are you making that claim? How do you know?

As for why you might THINK it would stop/reduce effect with time... uh, that's what happens with many substances. Tell me you're still getting the same caffeine buzz at the same dose now as when you first drank coffee.
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Caffeine (a stimulant) =/= Phosphatidic Acid

Phosphatidic acid enhances mTOR signalling (which helps build muscle). Leucine also stimulates mTOR signalling. I don't see a need to cycle leucine; it's not going to stop stimulating mTOR if I take it for extended periods of time. Exercise also stimulates mTOR signalling. Realistically, it's never a bad idea to take a few weeks off of most all supplements a few times a year, but I don't think it's NEEDED here.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Caffeine (a stimulant) =/= Phosphatidic Acid

Phosphatidic acid enhances mTOR signalling (which helps build muscle). Leucine also stimulates mTOR signalling. I don't see a need to cycle leucine; it's not going to stop stimulating mTOR if I take it for extended periods of time. Exercise also stimulates mTOR signalling. Realistically, it's never a bad idea to take a few weeks off of most all supplements a few times a year, but I don't think it's NEEDED here.
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Well, if you think about it, exercise stimulates a lot of muscle growth in the beginning, but then as time goes on it becomes harder and harder to stimulate additional muscle growth with exercise... and doing the same exercises for a prolonged period will often slow the growth response as well in many people's view. So there is a kind of general attenuation to the muscle growth effects of exercise.

My point is that we should be clear in being able to at least reference studies that show that the effect of PA does not decrease over time (or at least anecdotal feedback). What I was trying to get at was whether anyone had studies that showed PA administered over a long period continued to have the same increase in mTOR signalling or if there might be some benefit from cycling it.
 
Justlooking5 said:
Well, if you think about it, exercise stimulates a lot of muscle growth in the beginning, but then as time goes on it becomes harder and harder to stimulate additional muscle growth with exercise... and doing the same exercises for a prolonged period will often slow the growth response as well in many people's view. So there is a kind of general attenuation to the muscle growth effects of exercise.

My point is that we should be clear in being able to at least reference studies that show that the effect of PA does not decrease over time (or at least anecdotal feedback). What I was trying to get at was whether anyone had studies that showed PA administered over a long period continued to have the same increase in mTOR signalling or if there might be some benefit from cycling it.
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I understand what you are saying, but a stimulant like caffeine (from your previous post) probably isn't the best thing to compare it to. I would say that something like leucine would be better to compare PA to than caffeine (I'm not saying they're the same, just that they both stimulate mTOR). I haven't seen any studies that tested if PA's effect on mTOR persists with very prolonged use, but really what muscle-building supplements have we seen this for? Again, something like caffeine isn't the best thing to compare PA to. Do we have studies showing that the vast majority of the supplements we take (even the ones we consider staples) continue to work optimally after months/years of daily use? Of course, there's nothing wrong with taking a few weeks off PA every few months, but I wouldn't say it's vital to stop taking it after 8-12 weeks like some other supplements.
 
Justlooking5 said:
Well, if you think about it, exercise stimulates a lot of muscle growth in the beginning, but then as time goes on it becomes harder and harder to stimulate additional muscle growth with exercise... and doing the same exercises for a prolonged period will often slow the growth response as well in many people's view. So there is a kind of general attenuation to the muscle growth effects of exercise.

My point is that we should be clear in being able to at least reference studies that show that the effect of PA does not decrease over time (or at least anecdotal feedback). What I was trying to get at was whether anyone had studies that showed PA administered over a long period continued to have the same increase in mTOR signalling or if there might be some benefit from cycling it.
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I was on PA more than 1 year and I took couple of weeks off. I felt and saw I didnt have same fullness in the muscles like when I was on.Glycogen retention was not same. When it comes to mTOR activating, longer you take it, better it works!

I will not compare PA with steroids but I hear some people say some of oral steroids are not worth taking longer than 4 weeks because the effect will decrease. That is just wrong. An anabolic compound will not be weaker after 4 weeks of use. Your body will get used to the effect but anabolic effect will be same (increased protein synthesis, nitrogen retention+++). We are not talking about health now but the effect.

Hypertrophy we are getting from strength training is also due to intracellular PA increase which activate mTOR . That is one of reasons why we work out to get bigger. Studies show supplementing with PA increase intracellular PA even more. So take your PA everyday and have fun :)
 
Thanks for the response Danes. I still feel that to know for sure we should see a study that shows that PA increases mTOR by ~600% when taken initially, and continues to increase it by ~600% with daily use 4-6 months later. I'm not saying it does or doesn't, other than that the body tends to adapt to most things with time. That said, I think we can both agree that PA is a fantastic supp and is one of the best I've used personally (SL) and for muscle gains favorably compares to a very lose dose of a mild anabolic such as 10-15mg anavar/day.
 
Justlooking5 said:
Thanks for the response Danes. I still feel that to know for sure we should see a study that shows that PA increases mTOR by ~600% when taken initially, and continues to increase it by ~600% with daily use 4-6 months later. I'm not saying it does or doesn't, other than that the body tends to adapt to most things with time. That said, I think we can both agree that PA is a fantastic supp and is one of the best I've used personally (SL) and for muscle gains favorably compares to a very lose dose of a mild anabolic such as 10-15mg anavar/day.
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Sorry, but no, not even close.
 
kbayne said:
Sorry, but no, not even close.
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Well as someone who has used that dose of anavar a number of times (though granted, about 10 years go), that's my opinion. The strength gain isn't the same. Perhaps closer to 5mg than 10-15mg. 5mg or even 10mg of anavar isn't much.

For comparison purposes I just read an old thread of mine on another board from early 2000s where I was taking 45mg spanish oxandrolone per day and I was up 7 lbs. after about 5 weeks and leaner. And that's with 45mg/day, not 5-15mg.

With PA at a higher dose I think I probably could gain 2-5 lbs. in the same time period.
 
And another question: How much of the gains (muscle+strength) can you hold onto once you stop, because if you can retain the gains (or a big % of them at least ), then cycling would not be a problem. Because exactly that is the issue with AAS , gains are insane but its hard (very hard for some) to keep them
 
BigGGG said:
And another question: How much of the gains (muscle+strength) can you hold onto once you stop, because if you can retain the gains (or a big % of them at least ), then cycling would not be a problem. Because exactly that is the issue with AAS , gains are insane but its hard (very hard for some) to keep them
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You keep them all, but you'll lose glycogen retention which will be less muscle fullness.
 
haven't checked on this thread in a while, and thinking about getting back on PA. is everyone still using lecithin granules? or are there any new products worth checking out?
 
Still using them. I add 2 Tbs post workout, since I'm using Triumph pre-workout (~918mg PA). I always "fit" them somehow, so not interested in any concentrated stuff.
 
warpyfunch said:
haven't checked on this thread in a while, and thinking about getting back on PA. is everyone still using lecithin granules? or are there any new products worth checking out?
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Honestly I'm using Micro-PA by Biotest and am loving it. I know it is expensive and some people aren't a big fan of Biotest but it is a very convenient way of getting 750 mg of PA.
 
pbandy1 said:
Honestly I'm using Micro-PA by Biotest and am loving it. I know it is expensive and some people aren't a big fan of Biotest but it is a very convenient way of getting 750 mg of PA.
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I have nothing against micro PA. Works just as well as SL without any calories, bloating, or too much choline etc. In fact, you might want to keep an eye on what OL has up our sleeves ; )
 
pbandy1 said:
Honestly I'm using Micro-PA by Biotest and am loving it. I know it is expensive and some people aren't a big fan of Biotest but it is a very convenient way of getting 750 mg of PA.
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64 dollars to get 750 mg of PA? I'm using Fearns Soy lecithin granules and getting way more than 750 mg for only 7 bucks a bottle lol
 
pbandy1 said:
Honestly I'm using Micro-PA by Biotest and am loving it. I know it is expensive and some people aren't a big fan of Biotest but it is a very convenient way of getting 750 mg of PA.
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Honestly, it worked best of all PA cap products. Even Muscletech Phospha Muscle is mediator too, for me I really felt different between those two.
Micro PA has SEDDS delivery method
 
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