PA from sunflower lecithin
- Thread starter Palash
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Quads_of_Stee
Well-known member
I think gno meant percentages of Phosphadic acid content for each brand
machinehead
Well-known member
I am using the Lekithos brand available here in the US. The powder tastes better than soy lecithin granules, it does not upset my stomach, when mixed with protein powder taste is nearly completely covered, and it does not stick to shaker cups. Of course, best of all, it works just as well for me as soy lecithin.
squirtguns89
Member
iirc all studies are done on soy, dont think i remember any on sunflower, and theres been some on egg derived PA which didnt lead to the same benefits. that may be obvious, but im just pointing out not all PA is equal, it isnt like soy lecithin is putrid or overly expensive, this is a wheel im not going to reinvent just for the sake of it. but interested in any anecdote from people even if it wont likely change my opinion.
GNO
Well-known member
I am interested on feedback on Sunflower derived PA since I have an intolerance to soy.
Palash
New member
Thanks.
That's what I need.
Your portion of each day, before training? After a workout, too, you are taking?
I plan to start with 25 grams per day, and 50 grams before training if there is no effect - to increase pre-workout to 120 grams.
It is based on the empirical experience - the maximum recommended dosage of phosphatidic acid per day - 3.6 grams. Minimum Operating PA dose - 750 mg. The literature in sunflower lecithin it - 3 percent.
Just in case if it is 6 percent will be in my lecithin - which I doubt, it will be cautious initial daily dose of 25 grams that will give 1.5 grams of PA.
warrior737
Active member
GNO
Well-known member
I'm actually going to test this out.
I used soy lec granules years ago before I developed my intolerance. I also don't have issues with soy lecithin in protein/amino powders but that is pretty low levels.
machinehead
Well-known member
15g 2 hours before workout and 15 right after. Sometimes I take more, for example weekends when I am not at work. Your plan sounds good. Keep us posted.
jt75
Well-known member
Soy lecithin contains phytoestrogens which can and will raise estrogen in men and women. If you insist on taking it make sure is organic and non gmo as the other version uses hexane to extract the soy from the soy beans. Note: hexane is a known cancer causing chemical. Sunflower lecithin is much safer and healthier
muscleupcrohn
Legend
No...
jt75
Well-known member
Why would you just type 'no'.
What a remarkably clever way to contribute to a debate on a forum.
Your grasp of intellectual argument is very impressive indeed ?
muscleupcrohn
Legend
You obviously don't know me very well. I've contributed a ton to the PA/lecithin threads, including information on standardization and composition from papers, studies, books, manufactures, etc, and myself and others have already dealt with the estrogen issue regarding soy lecithin numerous times. In fact, I've even gone so far as to show that the amount of soy lecithin you'd be taking for PA would be far too little to have an effect to test/estrogen levels. It's been discussed every time someone brings up lecithin/PA. I checked this thread before my morning drive and didn't have time to formulate a more in depth response, but I wanted to remind myself to post in here, hence my short response. Should I have to dig through the plethora of other threads/posts/forms I've discussed this before and provide you specific examples? It's been beaten to death already IMO. A few tbsp of soy lecithin granules (de-oiled) is NOT going to mess with your test/estrogen levels, but it will provide you with >750mg PA and the benefits associated with PA supplementation. Now, don't go drinking glasses of soy milk and soy cheese and soy "meat," but a small amount of soy via lecithin granules is fine; the key is moderation my friend.Why would you just type 'no'.
What a remarkably clever way to contribute to a debate on a forum.
Your grasp of intellectual argument is very impressive indeed
jt75
Well-known member
Be my guest, but stating above that you have already dealt with the issue regarding estrogen certainly does not make you a scientist who has experimented on soy lecithin in detail. Secondly, I am not saying that the phytoestrogens raise the hormone in your body to excessive rates but I am saying that it does indeed contain them and that's a fact. Thirdly I did state that people should purchase the organic non gmo version as it's a lot safer than the version that uses hexane to extract the soy from the soy beans and that's also a fact and finally, phewwww, I said that sunflower lecithin is far more healthier albeit a little bit more expensive and that's also a fact.
muscleupcrohn
Legend
If it contains them but they don't have a significant/notable/any effect on the body, is it worth pointing out or worrying about?
You said "Soy lecithin contains phytoestrogens which can and will raise estrogen in men and women."
The phytoestrogens in soy lecithin granules (what we're talking about ITT) at the concentrations at which we are taking them WILL NOT increase estrogen levels or reduce testosterone levels to any degree that is even worth mentioning and/or thinking about. That's like saying "apples contain formaldehyde, which can and will kill you" and then saying "I am not saying that the amount in formaldehyde in apples is enough to harm you but I am saying that it does indeed contain it and that's a fact." Yes, it is a fact, but it's irrelevant...
Now, specifically in regards to the soy, here's something that's been discussed numerous times on this forum and others;
jt75
Well-known member
I think it's very much worth pointing out that it DOES contain phytoestrogens regardless if it's enough or not to harm you but it will affect different people in different ways. What perked my interest was that on the first page of this thread a poster claimed that the recommended dose was 3.6g per day but that he/she was experimenting with 25g per day, raising to 50g per day and then following up with 120g per day. Correct me if I'm wrong but if other posters or readers now think that it's fine to take 35 times the recommended amount of soy lecithin per day then I think it's worth noting what COULD happen in these circumstances. But anyway, your input has been noted and indeed appreciated. Have a nice day ?
muscleupcrohn
Legend
In regards to PA from lecithin granules, you're getting 4-8% PA, and the minimum amount of PA you really want to ensure you're getting 750mg PA is 18.75g. Quit a few of us have doubled that amount, give or take a bit, with success, but of course there's a limit with anything. Their mention of 3.6g was the max recommended dose for Phosphatidic Acid (PA), not soy lecithin. And it appears to me that he was mentioning that dose in regards to sunflower lecithin, not soy lecithin.
I don't believe that the amount of phytoestrogens in soy lecithin granules is of any practical/relevant concern here, so I don't think it's really worth mentioning, as it's largely irrelevant and people tend to freak out whenever they hear that something has "estrogens" in it. Hell, based on the isoflavone content of soy lecithin granules, you could have 120g of soy lecithin and still only get <19mg isoflavones, which is still far less than the 100mg (the amount that you want to stay under. Even if you take half of that 100mg, and then halve that, you're at 25mg isoflavones, which you're still under that number with 120g of lecithin granules, although I wouldn't even recommend that much lecithin, as it's a waste of money IMO, a ton of calories/fat, and will likely bother your stomach with that high of a dose. That's 4.8-9.6g PA, way more than the 1.5g. Even if you wanted 1.5g PA (2x the studies amount), you're looking at 37.5g granules, and even if you wanted to double that, you're at 75g lecithin granules.
So if you quadrupled the effective PA dose (750mg) from lecithin granules (assuming 4% PA content), and divided the isoflavone number previously mentioned by 4, you're still at less than 1/2 of the isoflavone content.
Again, 750mg PA from lecithin granules should give you ~3mg isoflavones, or 1/33 the 100mg number mentioned. Even doubling that, or a bit more, should not be cause for concern.
With that in mind, is it really worth mentioning? Yes, it's a nice fact to know, and is technically true, but should I go around telling people that tomatoes do indeed contain formaldehyde every time they someone asks if they should have a salad or two?
muscleupcrohn
Legend
Yes, but isn't it irrelevant to the discussion here? Apples contain formaldehyde. So do spinach, grapes, and beets. Does that mean that I'm contributing anything of substance if I point this out every time someone asks me if vegetables/salads are healthy? Does it mean that you shouldn't eat plenty of vegetables? No, it doesn't. So while it is true, it doesn't make a difference really, just as adding a few hundred mgs of beetroot powder to a pre-workout is not going to provide you the benefits of nitrates (even though beetroot does contain nitrates), and having a bite of watermelon (which contains l-citrulline) is not going to give you the same benefit as taking 3-4g of l-citrulline. The amount/dose of an ingredient/supplement is just as important as the ingredient itself really, and mentioning one aspect without mentioning the other is irresponsible and potentially misleading IMO.
jt75
Well-known member
It's not irresponsible and misleading to inform people of the facts regardless if you say that it is irrelevant or not, it will be relevant for other people to know of these things.
'' so while it is true, it doesn't make a difference really''. Really? If it's true then it's worth knowing and worth letting other people know, just saying!
'' so while it is true, it doesn't make a difference really''. Really? If it's true then it's worth knowing and worth letting other people know, just saying!
muscleupcrohn
Legend
I just feel that it's much more valuable to perhaps say "soy lecithin granules do contain phytoestrogens, but the amount of phytoestrogens you're going to be getting when taking lecithin granules a source of PA is much less than the amount you'd need to increase estrogen or decrease testosterone; about 3-6% of the 100mg number." Perhaps it'd be worth saying don't overdo it, but again, even the 120g (which wasn't even for soy lecithin) that concerned you was used, it'd still be <1/5 the 100mg total, and I have a feeling that calories/fat and/or cost and/or stomach discomfort/feeling full/bloated would surely come before someone took enough lecithin granules to be estrogenic. So if's worth letting other people know just because it's true, should I tell everyone that spinach contains formaldehyde every time they say they're going to start eating more spinach?
muscleupcrohn
Legend
But again, shouldn't I qualify my statement by saying that the amount of formaldehyde you'd be getting from a few servings of spinach isn't going to hurt you at all? If all I say is "spinach contains formaldehyde" and leave it at that, it may lead people to believe that they should avoid spinach due to this, when that is absolutely not the case.
ahawk01
Banned
I buy most of my vegetables at a farmers market not because of anything more than they taste better.
I'm guessing you're gluten free also.
muscleupcrohn
Legend
I'm gluten free (medical issues), what are you trying to say?
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
The horse is dead mate, quit beating it. Do you have blood work showing E2 levels before and after 2 Tbs/Day of Soy Lecithin Granules? From anyone?
kboxer7
Well-known member
Can't remember who, but someone that does regular bloodwork (not a rep and not connected to any company), posted that they were using 4-5 tbsp/day of Fearns and had ZERO change in estro.
Perhaps I can find his post. I think it may have been in the OL Tr1umph Q&A thread...
EDIT: Found it here: ELROCK may be able to answer any of your questions about his personal experience.
LINK = Invalid Link Removed
jt75
Well-known member
Well as a personal preference I will be starting swansons sunflower lecithin gels on Mon. I simply posted stuff I read from three or more sources that I thought might benefit the thread readers to make a choice. I am sure people have benefited greatly from sl granules and that's purely their choice. Do I have bloodwork from anyone who took sl? No but on the paleoforwomen website,a post menstrual lady took sl for 3 weeks and got really tender breasts and her period came after 7 years of not having one. You're probably now gonna say that's only 1 person but you did ask
dvw
Well-known member
wtf?
VaughnTrue
Well-known member
from what I have read, SF lecithin has less PA than Soy lecithin. havent read this entire pissing battle yet to see if anyone has mentioned this or not
muscleupcrohn
Legend
It's interesting, but it's a n=1 anecdotal sample, and, while I haven't read it, I highly doubt it was a case study, and I there may have been other variables at play, if it's even true at all. Perhaps she had some sort of allergic reaction or a hypersensitivity of some sort. A ton of people, including many many elderly people, have been taking soy lecithin granules daily for years, decades even. If this sort of thing happened regularly, or even somewhat often, we'd hear a lot more about it. It's the Internet; be careful not to believe everything you read, and always remember, coincidence is not causation.
muscleupcrohn
Legend
Also, are we even sure that SF derived PA is as effective as soy PA given equal PA content? I recall other sources of PA not performing as well as soy PA, although I do think some people have had success using SF PA here.