I'm on Phosphatidic acid Ya'll

rascal14 said:
F lol hopefully I don't get fatter on Tr1umph as well. How long did it take you guys to notice? I think it's giving me upset stomach sometimes also.
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I don't think you will experience this if your only using Tr1umph. I noticed it when I was using straight SL. I also notice it when I started adding additional SL (2 tbs) to Triumph. I think I will back down to only one tbs or maybe cut it out completely since its not really necessary.
 
ELROCK said:
I don't think you will experience this if your only using Tr1umph. I noticed it when I was using straight SL. I also notice it when I started adding additional SL (2 tbs) to Triumph. I think I will back down to only one tbs or maybe cut it out completely since its not really necessary.
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Good to know!
 
Surprised no one has referenced the study in which SL actually aids in fat gain. Maybe USPLabsRep has it on hand for us....haha.
 
I tried yesterday about 10g only of SL, barely made it to the toilet :( , so even low doses wont work for me. Think Tr1umph should get rid of this issues as it is also SL but ground up. Do the other goodies in Tr1umph aid with digestion? And can anyone confirm also that sunflower lecithin has the same effect as SL?? I've heard that sunflower lecithin does come without the GI issues, that would be nice..
TY
G
 
ma70 said:
Surprised no one has referenced the study in which SL actually aids in fat gain. Maybe USPLabsRep has it on hand for us....haha.
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Are you being serious? Love to see it if so. Adding fat while in a deficit and taking in the minimum level for hormone health, just by eating 2-4Tbs of SLG????
 
The_Old_Guy said:
Are you being serious? Love to see it if so. Adding fat while in a deficit and taking in the minimum level for hormone health, just by eating 2-4Tbs of SLG????
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I'm gonna search around for his post and I'll reference it when I find it. Basically, from the vague skimming of the study, SL makes people fat. Haha.

EDIT: and here it is...

"Lecithin promotes adipocyte differentiation and hepatic lipid accumulation."
Invalid Link Removed
 
ma70 said:
I'm gonna search around for his post and I'll reference it when I find it. Basically, from the vague skimming of the study, SL makes people fat. Haha.

EDIT: and here it is...

"Lecithin promotes adipocyte differentiation and hepatic lipid accumulation."
Invalid Link Removed
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Ha! Thanks :) I'm losing fat currently in my cut - glad I'm not a mouse cell :) Downloadable full text by clicking the icon on this page:

Invalid Link Removed

Thanks buddy!
 
The_Old_Guy said:
Ha! Thanks :) I'm losing fat currently in my cut - glad I'm not a mouse cell :) Downloadable full text by clicking the icon on this page:

Invalid Link Removed

Thanks buddy!
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Yeah I read that fact too, but it's still worth noting if some people are anecdotally noticing it, you know? I didn't feel fatter (or like I was gaining fat) on Soy Lecithin, but it mostly felt like some kind of water retention.
 
ma70 said:
Yeah I read that fact too, but it's still worth noting if some people are anecdotally noticing it, you know? I didn't feel fatter (or like I was gaining fat) on Soy Lecithin, but it mostly felt like some kind of water retention.
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Interesting find. Deserving of further investigation, at least.
 
Misfit28 said:
Interesting find. Deserving of further investigation, at least.
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Yeah...except no further investigation/studies are to be found anywhere that show an increase in fat with SL, which is kind of odd considering it's far reaching implications on the general public (SL is in about everything lol).

My take:

It's been shown in mouse cells. Ok cool, but it's a FAR stretch from in-vitro to in-vivo results.

More than that, we are forgetting the context in which we consume these little granuals (i.e. In/around intense physical activity).

I highly doubt that SL would cause fat gain when the body is primed for anything but.

Regardless, we at OL were aware of the study and built in specific ingredients into Tr1umph to stop any potential for fat gain in its tracks. So for those worried, it's an alternative option.
 
kboxer7 said:
Yeah...except no further investigation/studies are to be found anywhere that show an increase in fat with SL, which is kind of odd considering it's far reaching implications on the general public (SL is in about everything lol).

My take:

It's been shown in mouse cells. Ok cool, but it's a FAR stretch from in-vitro to in-vivo results.

More than that, we are forgetting the context in which we consume these little granuals (i.e. In/around intense physical activity).

I highly doubt that SL would cause fat gain when the body is primed for anything but.

Regardless, we at OL were aware of the study and built in specific ingredients into Tr1umph to stop any potential for fat gain in its tracks. So for those worried, it's an alternative option.
Click to expand...

Invalid Link Removed

In case anybody is interested.
 
The_Old_Guy said:
I'd still give Triumph a shot - you get 900'ish milligrams and it's combined with other stuff, which may aid digestion/processing. Then take 1 Tbs of granules with dinner. He could also try grinding his own granules into a fine powder and having it with his (hopefully) pre-resistence training meal.
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Thats true.. I do like the addition of creatine HCL swell as the elevate and alpha size
 
I am sure many of you are mistaking that SL is more than likely causing water retention, not fat gain, if in a deficit.
 
kbayne said:
I am sure many of you are mistaking that SL is more than likely causing water retention, not fat gain, if in a deficit.
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I can only speak for myself, but I can say it is fat gain and not water weight. I have been on SL for a long time ( since the beginning of this thread) and I am fully aware of how it effects me personally. I do notice when I increase my SL dose I seem to hold more weight/fat in my lower abs, lower back / love handle areas. I have never experienced any abdominal bloating or water retention from SL. Another thing to note is my e2 numbers have stayed in the same range so no estrogen increase.
 
ELROCK said:
I can only speak for myself, but I can say it is fat gain and not water weight. I have been on SL for a long time ( since the beginning of this thread) and I am fully aware of how it effects me personally. I do notice when I increase my SL dose I seem to hold more weight/fat in my lower abs, lower back / love handle areas. I have never experienced any abdominal bloating or water retention from SL. Another thing to note is my e2 numbers have stayed in the same range so no estrogen increase.
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Appreciate the feedback man. You know your body best.

Good to hear those e2 numbers didn't budge!
 
ELROCK said:
I can only speak for myself, but I can say it is fat gain and not water weight. I have been on SL for a long time ( since the beginning of this thread) and I am fully aware of how it effects me personally. I do notice when I increase my SL dose I seem to hold more weight/fat in my lower abs, lower back / love handle areas. I have never experienced any abdominal bloating or water retention from SL. Another thing to note is my e2 numbers have stayed in the same range so no estrogen increase.
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Fair enough :)
 
kbayne said:
I am sure many of you are mistaking that SL is more than likely causing water retention, not fat gain, if in a deficit.
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I don't believe this was the case for me either. I actually LOVE Pa and SL, which are one of the supps that have had closer to drug/very mild gear like effects for me and I think it helped me put on a decent amount of muscle.

However, I am fairly convinced that SL tended to cause fat gain in the abdominal region and love handles in particular for me, to the point where I stopped using it while on my cut. I like it enough to want to add it back, though because I would like to stay lean I have been thinking about taking it on training days only.
 
So , anyone here something to say more about Sunflower lecithine? Does it work the same? GI issues? Dose maybe?
TY
 
Keep in mind 2 tbsp of SL granules contains 8 grams of fat. If ppl are doing 4 that's a lot of extra fat you need to work into your macros. Could be part of the reason for fat gain.
 
kboxer7 said:
Yeah...except no further investigation/studies are to be found anywhere that show an increase in fat with SL, which is kind of odd considering it's far reaching implications on the general public (SL is in about everything lol).

My take:

It's been shown in mouse cells. Ok cool, but it's a FAR stretch from in-vitro to in-vivo results.

More than that, we are forgetting the context in which we consume these little granuals (i.e. In/around intense physical activity).

I highly doubt that SL would cause fat gain when the body is primed for anything but.

Regardless, we at OL were aware of the study and built in specific ingredients into Tr1umph to stop any potential for fat gain in its tracks. So for those worried, it's an alternative option.
Click to expand...

The frustrating thing about these posts is that you have a vested interest in reaching the conclusion that SL won't cause fat gain. In truth, you don't know that the ingedients in Tr1umph will stop fat gain with soy lecithin because it is not knowable, the ingredients have not been studied in combination, and results would be highly individual in any case.

I understand that this board has sponsors and these sponsors may even make good products some percentage of the time, but I don't quite get how we are supposed to take seriously the words of people who have a vested financial interest in pushing a certain point of view.
 
Justlooking5 said:
The frustrating thing about these posts is that you have a vested interest in reaching the conclusion that SL won't cause fat gain. In truth, you don't know that the ingedients in Tr1umph will stop any fat gain with soy lecithin because it is not knowable, the ingredients have not been studied in combination, and results would be highly individual in any case.

I understand that this board has sponsors and these sponsors may even make good products some percentage of the time, but I don't quite get how we are supposed to take seriously the words of people who have a vested financial interest in pushing a certain point of view.
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I certainly respect your opinion, even if you don't respect mine....though I don't think "being a rep" should discount my knowledge or personal experience : )

I've been running SL (not Tr1umph) LONG LONG before Tr1umph ever existed (check my post history), and I plan on continuing to do so.

Danes can attest. He is also a SL/PA expert, with no company affiliations. Perhaps he can provide some unbiased insight.

Regardless, the science behind the ingredients in Tr1umph, SL included, speaks volumes more than my words can. If there are any studies you are interested in I would be happy to try and dig them up for you. I believe most full text docs are available.

Certain ingredients have been proven to increase fat loss and/or prevent fat gain in various scenarios. I merely wanted to point out that fact, backed by studies, in case anyone was having trouble with SL and wanted an alternative option that might aid in preventing any theoretical fat gains from SL.

Everyone's experience with things is different. If you don't feel like SL or Tr1umph is a good fit due to concerns about fat gain, or feel like more research needs to be done, I am ok with that and wish you nothing but the best.


Regards,
 
ma70 said:
I'm gonna search around for his post and I'll reference it when I find it. Basically, from the vague skimming of the study, SL makes people fat. Haha.

EDIT: and here it is...

"Lecithin promotes adipocyte differentiation and hepatic lipid accumulation."
Invalid Link Removed
Click to expand...


I commented on this when it was initially posted a few months back.

***After reading over the full text- the only really conclusive, usable and replicated clinical data I found from this study reinforces that those with fatty liver disease should avoid excess fat in their diet. The rest of the findings are in no way conclusive and the hypotheses formed, mentioned in the discussion, have more or less been abandoned since this was published in 2009. Considering this is a recent area of research (obesity and adipogenesis) that has received much attention- you would think that a landmark paper such as this would be subject to further investigation. It doesn't appear to be.

The authors postulate that it may be fatty acid components such as oleic acid acting as PPAR-gamma activators and inducing the rapid adipocyte differentiation observed in their study. I'm by no means well-versed in this area- but it seems that this is a rather loose hypothesis given oleic acid has significantly lower affinity for nuclear PPAR-gamma than rosiglitazone (a thiazolidinedione-->pharmaceutical PPAR-gamma activator) however in the experimental conditions lecithin caused adipocyte differentiation about 7 times faster.
Additionally, it is mentioned that there is an early stage of adipocyte differentiation (clonal expansion) essentially circumvented when lecithin is used as the inducer. It is mentioned that this elusive mechanism requires 'clarification'. Given that there is no follow up research and that there is no related research citing this paper I would say that the correct term would be 'identification' and not 'clarification'.***

I'm working on a method to isolate phosphatidic acid from lecithin granules for my own use. I have performed some experiments and am almost perfected the method. It's is a rather crude extraction, however it is inexpensive and could be performed by the most amateur of kitchen chemists.
 
furion said:
I commented on this when it was initially posted a few months back.

***After reading over the full text- the only really conclusive, usable and replicated clinical data I found from this study reinforces that those with fatty liver disease should avoid excess fat in their diet. The rest of the findings are in no way conclusive and the hypotheses formed, mentioned in the discussion, have more or less been abandoned since this was published in 2009. Considering this is a recent area of research (obesity and adipogenesis) that has received much attention- you would think that a landmark paper such as this would be subject to further investigation. It doesn't appear to be.

The authors postulate that it may be fatty acid components such as oleic acid acting as PPAR-gamma activators and inducing the rapid adipocyte differentiation observed in their study. I'm by no means well-versed in this area- but it seems that this is a rather loose hypothesis given oleic acid has significantly lower affinity for nuclear PPAR-gamma than rosiglitazone (a thiazolidinedione-->pharmaceutical PPAR-gamma activator) however in the experimental conditions lecithin caused adipocyte differentiation about 7 times faster.
Additionally, it is mentioned that there is an early stage of adipocyte differentiation (clonal expansion) essentially circumvented when lecithin is used as the inducer. It is mentioned that this elusive mechanism requires 'clarification'. Given that there is no follow up research and that there is no related research citing this paper I would say that the correct term would be 'identification' and not 'clarification'.***

I'm working on a method to isolate phosphatidic acid from lecithin granules for my own use. I have performed some experiments and am almost perfected the method. It's is a rather crude extraction, however it is inexpensive and could be performed by the most amateur of kitchen chemists.
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Very well said.

Your expertise is appreciated as always.

P.S. Will you be sharing this "extraction" method with the public?
 
kboxer7 said:
Very well said.

Your expertise is appreciated as always.

P.S. Will you be sharing this "extraction" method with the public?
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Depends on how well it works. If I can get access to the lab @ my old university I will test it-if it's as good as I hope- it might be in my best (economic) interest to keep it proprietary.
 
Justlooking5 said:
The frustrating thing about these posts is that you have a vested interest in reaching the conclusion that SL won't cause fat gain. In truth, you don't know that the ingedients in Tr1umph will stop fat gain with soy lecithin because it is not knowable, the ingredients have not been studied in combination, and results would be highly individual in any case.

I understand that this board has sponsors and these sponsors may even make good products some percentage of the time, but I don't quite get how we are supposed to take seriously the words of people who have a vested financial interest in pushing a certain point of view.
Click to expand...

I can see your opinion, but the thing is, kboxer has been using soy lecithin granules way before Tr1umph existed and he's experimented with it a lot. (Read the thread)

Either way, Phosphatidic Acid is pretty interesting. Some people claim fat gain, some people claim water retention (me), some claim digestive issues. It's all just good discussion about how soy lecithin granules effects us.
 
Chefdeez said:
Keep in mind 2 tbsp of SL granules contains 8 grams of fat. If ppl are doing 4 that's a lot of extra fat you need to work into your macros. Could be part of the reason for fat gain.
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Yeah, I'm cutting right now on SLG, and I just adjusted the macros to fit it. I'm usually around 80-85g fat. Depending on the day during the cut, it's 65-75g. I read the study, but I am having a hard time believing it is possible to gain fat while 600kcals below maintenance while taking in the bare minimum'ish amount of fat for hormonal health? I didn't gain weight at Maintenance either, taking 2-4Tbs. I use tape, caliper and scale. This may be super individual, as obviously these guys ^ aren't making sh&t up - I'd love to see a human in vivio study. I wonder what Wilson would have to say about this?
 
I just want to add that I think people take way too much granules. 2 tbsp will work just fine there's no need for 4-5 like some people do unless you're over 300 lbs
 
I agree ^ 2 tbsp of SL or Triumph + 1 tbsp SL seems to work best for me.

Edit: but I am fairly light I only weigh 173.
 
Chefdeez said:
I just want to add that I think people take way too much granules. 2 tbsp will work just fine there's no need for 4-5 like some people do unless you're over 300 lbs
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I agree, but with a caveat - if 2Tbs *does* contain 1200mg. I think the reason some go to 4Tbs is to hedge our bets against the amount of PA that is actually in 2 Tbs due to manufacturing tolerances. There's a lot of discussion about the *actual* percentage of PA in the granules. But yeah, I'd only do 2 if I was assured of 1200mg! :)
 
The_Old_Guy said:
I agree, but with a caveat - if 2Tbs *does* contain 1200mg. I think the reason some go to 4Tbs is to hedge our bets against the amount of PA that is actually in 2 Tbs due to manufacturing tolerances. There's a lot of discussion about the *actual* percentage of PA in the granules. But yeah, I'd only do 2 if I was assured of 1200mg! :)
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I feel like the 4-8% rule is accurate.

I don't know if others have noticed this, but I've easily been thru over 30 tubs of Fearns and I have noticed some batches seemed less effective at the same doses.

Some of this is subjective, but I do take measurements + scale weight meticulously.

What I've noticed is that extra weight from glycogen/nitrogen retention ranges from 2-5 lbs for me during the first 5-7 days give or take.

Size increase in upper arms ranges from 1/8 - 3/8" by days 7-10.

Same doses, same training, same macros/diet. The variation exists, and I've confirmed this with Fearn's myself.

For those new to SL, I would start at 2 tbsp. Take measures, and if you don't get a minimum 2lb increase inside of 10 days, then I'd bump up the dose.

***disclaimer*** My feedback may NOT apply when on a cut or LOW carb diet.
 
Can Soy Lecithin make one fat ?
Well it would be lie if I said no. But it is dose dependent and VERY logical.
I will say this as simple as possible:
Lets say a person consume 15g SL. It is about 135 calories. (And hoping to get annything from 4-7% PA)which gives you a dose of 600-1050mg PA. Taking 30g SL is 270 calories (1200-2100mg PA).

If you consume enough fat it will have a tendency to get stored as fat.SL is granulated fat that contains some PA. So you are literally still consuming fat and we don't know if 100% of it gets taken up as phospholipids or how much of it converts to triglycerides to then get stored as fat.
It is not like PA/phospholipids are activating extra fat storage, but its the extra calories. So if you are affraid of extra calories then I recommend enriched PA such as Mediator. Taking 2g Mediator (50% enriched PA) will give you 1g PA and just 18 calories.
 
Danes said:
Can Soy Lecithin make one fat ?
Well it would be lie if I said no. But it is dose dependent and VERY logical.
I will say this as simple as possible:
Lets say a person consume 15g SL. It is about 135 calories. (And hoping to get annything from 4-7% PA)which gives you a dose of 600-1050mg PA. Taking 30g SL is 270 calories (1200-2100mg PA).

If you consume enough fat it will have a tendency to get stored as fat.SL is granulated fat that contains some PA. So you are literally still consuming fat and we don't know if 100% of it gets taken up as phospholipids or how much of it converts to triglycerides to then get stored as fat.
It is not like PA/phospholipids are activating extra fat storage, but its the extra calories. So if you are affraid of extra calories then I recommend enriched PA such as Mediator. Taking 2g Mediator (50% enriched PA) will give you 1g PA and just 18 calories.
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What I said but way smarter sounding :) thanks haha. Couldn't agree more
 
kboxer7 said:
I feel like the 4-8% rule is accurate.

I don't know if others have noticed this, but I've easily been thru over 30 tubs of Fearns and I have noticed some batches seemed less effective at the same doses.

Some of this is subjective, but I do take measurements + scale weight meticulously.

What I've noticed is that extra weight from glycogen/nitrogen retention ranges from 2-5 lbs for me during the first 5-7 days give or take.

Size increase in upper arms ranges from 1/8 - 3/8" by days 7-10.

Same doses, same training, same macros/diet. The variation exists, and I've confirmed this with Fearn's myself.

For those new to SL, I would start at 2 tbsp. Take measures, and if you don't get a minimum 2lb increase inside of 10 days, then I'd bump up the dose.

***disclaimer*** My feedback may NOT apply when on a cut or LOW carb diet.
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Love to see all that precise science here:), really nice. So , as I am powerlifting what are the strength gains (3%?-5%?) anyone some input on strenght when on PA? Also still would like to know if sunflower lecithin works the same, I have heard it comes without the GI issues.
TY
G
 
BigGGG said:
Love to see all that precise science here:), really nice. So , as I am powerlifting what are the strength gains (3%?-5%?) anyone some input on strenght when on PA? Also still would like to know if sunflower lecithin works the same, I have heard it comes without the GI issues.
TY
G
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I don't notice a large acute strength gain immediately, but by days 10-14 I start to notice a slight increase in strength and a larger increase in overall work capacity (in the form of greater overall volume/reps).

WHAT THE SCIENCE SAYS:

Invalid Link Removed

16 resistance trained men, given 750mg of PA vs placebo assessed for strength (1 RM) during each training session exhibited:

A. 12.7% increase in squat strength (vs 9.3% for placebo)
B. 2.6% increase in LBM (vs 0.1% placebo)

Larger doses of PA may lead to greater gains in all measurable areas based on private conversations with the scientists behind the study and also demonstrated through a large amount of anecdotal data.

P.S. If strength is your goal I'd give Tr1umph a look as well. There are multiple ingredients in addition to SL/PA that are proven to increase max power output. We're having some large sales March 2-10.
 
I would dearly want to try Tr1umph, but even after 10 g SL I barely make it to the toilet sometimes, other times its fine ( cant tell why), as far as I know Tr1umph has also SL just ground up. Would the other ingredients help with GI issues? One other problem is that I m from Europe, have to search for some online vendors here....
G
 
BigGGG said:
I would dearly want to try Tr1umph, but even after 10 g SL I barely make it to the toilet sometimes, other times its fine ( cant tell why), as far as I know Tr1umph has also SL just ground up. Would the other ingredients help with GI issues? One other problem is that I m from Europe, have to search for some online vendors here....
G
Click to expand...

Some do better with GI issues w/ Tr1umph vs straight SL, but I can't say if this would be the case for you or not.

Seeing that even 10g hits you, splitting the dose wouldn't help either.

I am actively taking feedback on the possibility of adding a "low cal" concentrated PA version of Tr1umph.

If there is enough interest perhaps I can persuade the powers that be.

*disclaimer* - concentrated PA is expensive, so this would be reflected in a higher retail price.

Lastly, we do some slick deals for our international customers with regards to shipping etc.

Be sure to sign up for our insider email on our site : )
 
kboxer7 said:
Some do better with GI issues w/ Tr1umph vs straight SL, but I can't say if this would be the case for you or not.

Seeing that even 10g hits you, splitting the dose wouldn't help either.

I am actively taking feedback on the possibility of adding a "low cal" concentrated PA version of Tr1umph.

If there is enough interest perhaps I can persuade the powers that be.

*disclaimer* - concentrated PA is expensive, so this would be reflected in a higher retail price.

Lastly, we do some slick deals for our international customers with regards to shipping etc.

Be sure to sign up for our insider email on our site : )
Click to expand...

Doesn't really make sense that "some people do better with tru1mph vs straight SL" considering the source of PA is SL right? I'd look into a concentrated product if 10g gives you issues.
 
Chefdeez said:
Doesn't really make sense that "some people do better with tru1mph vs straight SL" considering the source of PA is SL right? I'd look into a concentrated product if 10g gives you issues.
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100% anecdotal based on reviews posted publicly on AM and feedback we received.

I consider it a case by case basis because it doesn't make a lot of sense to me either, which is why I did not outright suggest Tr1umph to him and to proceed with caution : )

Perhaps the grinding of SL into a powder aids in digestion, perhaps other ingredients play a role...idk.

Honest feedback always my man : )

Don't need anyone having GI issues when trying to get their swole on.
 
I get some intense stomach pains and GI issues with the soy granules, plus having to use the bathroom a lot. But after using tr1umph I dont have any GI problems as of now. Not sure why, maybe the granules don't agree with me, but the powder in tr1umph seems to agree better with me. Just my experience, was really disappointed I couldn't continue with the fearn granules considering I got a few tubs for cheap. But so far so good with the tr1umph.
 
kboxer7 said:
I don't notice a large acute strength gain immediately, but by days 10-14 I start to notice a slight increase in strength and a larger increase in overall work capacity (in the form of greater overall volume/reps).

WHAT THE SCIENCE SAYS:

Invalid Link Removed

16 resistance trained men, given 750mg of PA vs placebo assessed for strength (1 RM) during each training session exhibited:

A. 12.7% increase in squat strength (vs 9.3% for placebo)
B. 2.6% increase in LBM (vs 0.1% placebo)

Larger doses of PA may lead to greater gains in all measurable areas based on private conversations with the scientists behind the study and also demonstrated through a large amount of anecdotal data.

P.S. If strength is your goal I'd give Tr1umph a look as well. There are multiple ingredients in addition to SL/PA that are proven to increase max power output. We're having some large sales March 2-10.
Click to expand...

Right on. If you look at the numbers, you get ~3% increase across the board. Can this be measured - sure. Can this be measured and readily apparent by an average lifter? You'd have to be meticulous, like you. This is a good example of the 'additive effect' of this thing of ours: Now add Sodium Bicarb and Instant Coffee to the SLG, and you are into double digit percentages. Of course 'additive effect' is awesome when each 'ergogenic' costs $5/Month... when each is $50/Month, well... maybe I don't need that 10% :)
 
kboxer7 said:
Some do better with GI issues w/ Tr1umph vs straight SL, but I can't say if this would be the case for you or not.

Seeing that even 10g hits you, splitting the dose wouldn't help either.

I am actively taking feedback on the possibility of adding a "low cal" concentrated PA version of Tr1umph.

If there is enough interest perhaps I can persuade the powers that be.

*disclaimer* - concentrated PA is expensive, so this would be reflected in a higher retail price.

Lastly, we do some slick deals for our international customers with regards to shipping etc.

Be sure to sign up for our insider email on our site : )
Click to expand...


Get with furion and license his procedure - he's on the consumer's side and won't rape us :)
 
The_Old_Guy said:
Right on. If you look at the numbers, you get ~3% increase across the board. Can this be measured - sure. Can this be measured and readily apparent by an average lifter? You'd have to be meticulous, like you. This is a good example of the 'additive effect' of this thing of ours: Now add Sodium Bicarb and Instant Coffee to the SLG, and you are into double digit percentages. Of course 'additive effect' is awesome when each 'ergogenic' costs $5/Month... when each is $50/Month, well... maybe I don't need that 10% :)
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****, a 10% would be worth 100 bucks for me/month, as I am competing drug tested, can't even Imagine how HUUGE 10 % appears to me:)
G
 
BigGGG said:
****, a 10% would be worth 100 bucks for me/month, as I am competing drug tested, can't even Imagine how HUUGE 10 % appears to me:)
G
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It's different if you pay your bills with your body (or are trying to) :)

My philosophy is if your supplement money has zero effect on any other financial thing in your life, and you could literally burn it in the fireplace with no ill consequence - I don't care what people buy (but I'll still give an opinion on what the science says :)) 'Merica!
 
I'm currently taking Tr1umph, stacking it with a few other products however.

One thing I've noticed is....

When taking bulk PA, I was taking 2-3 tablespoons the pump I got was out of this world.

Even with adding CU, I don't get the same pump.

Which is weird, I am 96kgs. I might add a tablespoon aka 15g extra to my Tr1umph.
 
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