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Cjg said:
Man hi tech is bringing the pain!! Wish they could bring formestane back... Lol
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why not just use arimistane like that found in Form-XT or Estrogenex 2nd Generation? It's literally 3x as potent as formestane!


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rtmilburn said:
A methylated version of epiandrosterone and it MIGHT be possible if someone is willing to take the risk of methylating dhea's and possible fda ramifications
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It's probably feasible, but this is begging them to ban some of the last legal options we currently have for PHs.
 
saywutrly said:
It's probably feasible, but this is begging them to ban some of the last legal options we currently have for PHs.
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Totally agree! Heck i still feel there will be another ban within 5 years, that gets rid of everything other than standard dhea. I think the fda will also try to find a way to ban even some of the natural plant base supps aswell
 
VaughnTrue said:
why not just use arimistane like that found in Form-XT or Estrogenex 2nd Generation? It's literally 3x as potent as formestane!QUOTE]


If your looking for Arimistane, BPS Elimistane has the best dosed for sure. 75mg a tab. One AM and one PM is 150mg. You would need 6 Form-XT for same dose.
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Brick Tannen said:
VaughnTrue said:
why not just use arimistane like that found in Form-XT or Estrogenex 2nd Generation? It's literally 3x as potent as formestane!


If your looking for Arimistane, BPS Elimistane has the best dosed for sure. 75mg a tab. One AM and one PM is 150mg. You would need 6 Form-XT for same dose.
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that is a HIGH dose, and goes well beyond what would be suggested. Lowering estrogen too much is not a good idea.

75mg/day should be a max dosage for just about anyone IMO
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VaughnTrue said:
Brick Tannen said:
that is a HIGH dose, and goes well beyond what would be suggested. Lowering estrogen too much is not a good idea.

75mg/day should be a max dosage for just about anyone IMO
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I don't disagree, at all. That was my original understanding as well. However there is a lot of research out there supporting optimal doses between 50-150. Just as research is showing it could hold its own against others like Form, Exem, etc. shutting down E hard is just as bad as spiking it hard. It's miserable!
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When I look up Estrogenex 2nd generation.. It shows me the one with 6 bromo in it.. Is that the one you referring to? Or the one with long jack and epi androsterone?
 
Cjg said:
When I look up Estrogenex 2nd generation.. It shows me the one with 6 bromo in it.. Is that the one you referring to? Or the one with long jack and epi androsterone?
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I messed up and looked at the wrong label, I apologize.

Form XT would be the way I go. You get 25mg/day so you can hit the 75mg/day max dosage, along with Cyclosome delivery technology.
 
VaughnTrue said:
I messed up and looked at the wrong label, I apologize.

Form XT would be the way I go. You get 25mg/day so you can hit the 75mg/day max dosage, along with Cyclosome delivery technology.
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VaughnTrue, Just curious, but dosing 1 Elimistane 75mg a day is more convenient, But would Form XT give more of a stable level, dosed three times a day? I like LG's cyclosome delivery better, but convenience is important too. I currently use Elimistane, but it's been DC'd by BPS...
 
Brick Tannen said:
VaughnTrue, Just curious, but dosing 1 Elimistane 75mg a day is more convenient, But would Form XT give more of a stable level, dosed three times a day? I like LG's cyclosome delivery better, but convenience is important too. I currently use Elimistane, but it's been DC'd by BPS...
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I am a MASSIVE proponent on splitting dosage timing up for anything that modifies/interacts with hormones. Our hormones rise and fall throughout the day, and by providing a single bolus dose, it doesn't allow you to reap the benefits that smaller & more frequent dosing can provide.

1 pill every ~8 hours will help keep estrogen as low as possible 24/7, and keep testosterone higher than it could be with bolus dosing
 
VaughnTrue said:
I am a MASSIVE proponent on splitting dosage timing up for anything that modifies/interacts with hormones. Our hormones rise and fall throughout the day, and by providing a single bolus dose, it doesn't allow you to reap the benefits that smaller & more frequent dosing can provide.

1 pill every ~8 hours will help keep estrogen as low as possible 24/7, and keep testosterone higher than it could be with bolus dosing
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Vaughn, appreciate the feedback! Got another question for you. How long do you continue the AI? I was only two weeks into a Trest cycle with my normal trt protocol, and had very bad sudden gyno symptoms. Painful nipples, and small lump under left nipple. Two weeks is all it took. Never had gyno symptoms ever. Several low budget cycles in my past. Immediately discontinued Trest, started on AI, and have been ever since. It will be two weeks this Saturday I have been on AI, and trt. All symptoms have gone away, except a tiny pebble behind left nipple. Arimistane was the AI, 75x2 a day for 3 days, then 75x1 a day since. Looking to do a sup3r 1 & 4 run as soon as it comes out, since this last run was only two weeks. Just don't want to inflame the the possible gyno in left nipple. (Sorry for hijacking thread)......
 
VaughnTrue said:
I am a MASSIVE proponent on splitting dosage timing up for anything that modifies/interacts with hormones. Our hormones rise and fall throughout the day, and by providing a single bolus dose, it doesn't allow you to reap the benefits that smaller & more frequent dosing can provide.

1 pill every ~8 hours will help keep estrogen as low as possible 24/7, and keep testosterone higher than it could be with bolus dosing
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Def agree with this.. I want an EXTREMELY long half life before I consider once daily dosing.
 
Brick Tannen said:
Vaughn, appreciate the feedback! Got another question for you. How long do you continue the AI? I was only two weeks into a Trest cycle with my normal trt protocol, and had very bad sudden gyno symptoms. Painful nipples, and small lump under left nipple. Two weeks is all it took. Never had gyno symptoms ever. Several low budget cycles in my past. Immediately discontinued Trest, started on AI, and have been ever since. It will be two weeks this Saturday I have been on AI, and trt. All symptoms have gone away, except a tiny pebble behind left nipple. Arimistane was the AI, 75x2 a day for 3 days, then 75x1 a day since. Looking to do a sup3r 1 & 4 run as soon as it comes out, since this last run was only two weeks. Just don't want to inflame the the possible gyno in left nipple. (Sorry for hijacking thread)......
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with a response to anabolics like that, I would unfortunately be always concerned and run an AI while I ran any product that had any estrogenic conversion. I would also make sure to have caber on hand just in case.
 
Brick Tannen said:
Vaughn, appreciate the feedback! Got another question for you. How long do you continue the AI? I was only two weeks into a Trest cycle with my normal trt protocol, and had very bad sudden gyno symptoms. Painful nipples, and small lump under left nipple. Two weeks is all it took. Never had gyno symptoms ever. Several low budget cycles in my past. Immediately discontinued Trest, started on AI, and have been ever since. It will be two weeks this Saturday I have been on AI, and trt. All symptoms have gone away, except a tiny pebble behind left nipple. Arimistane was the AI, 75x2 a day for 3 days, then 75x1 a day since. Looking to do a sup3r 1 & 4 run as soon as it comes out, since this last run was only two weeks. Just don't want to inflame the the possible gyno in left nipple. (Sorry for hijacking thread)......
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Armistane IS NOT an AI..... There is numerous things of blood work showing that it has no effect on estrogen. Some have even showed an increase. It is however a strong diuretic and a moderate cortisol inhibitor.
 
Brick Tannen said:
Vaughn, appreciate the feedback! Got another question for you. How long do you continue the AI? I was only two weeks into a Trest cycle with my normal trt protocol, and had very bad sudden gyno symptoms. Painful nipples, and small lump under left nipple. Two weeks is all it took. Never had gyno symptoms ever. Several low budget cycles in my past. Immediately discontinued Trest, started on AI, and have been ever since. It will be two weeks this Saturday I have been on AI, and trt. All symptoms have gone away, except a tiny pebble behind left nipple. Arimistane was the AI, 75x2 a day for 3 days, then 75x1 a day since. Looking to do a sup3r 1 & 4 run as soon as it comes out, since this last run was only two weeks. Just don't want to inflame the the possible gyno in left nipple. (Sorry for hijacking thread)......
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Using something like Trest, I would have had a pharma grade AI on hand. If you are on TRT, I would talk to your doctor.
 
rtmilburn said:
Armistane IS NOT an AI..... There is numerous things of blood work showing that it has no effect on estrogen. Some have even showed an increase. It is however a strong diuretic and a moderate cortisol inhibitor.
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And Arimistane wont completely remove your gyno either. You need Aromasin,Letro, or Arimidex... I suppose you could maybe run a low dose Epistane with it but that always has the chance of rebound gyno later on...
 
Darlz said:
And Arimistane wont completely remove your gyno either. You need Aromasin,Letro, or Arimidex... I suppose you could maybe run a low dose Epistane with it but that always has the chance of rebound gyno later on...
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A-Dex has been A-OK for my limited use. But, I thought only Letro was actually proven to physically reverse gyno which already resulted in the production of undesirable tissue? That is literally a question. I'm still learning.
 
Darlz said:
And Arimistane wont completely remove your gyno either. You need Aromasin,Letro, or Arimidex... I suppose you could maybe run a low dose Epistane with it but that always has the chance of rebound gyno later on...
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I have been hearing recently that the ani-estrogenic effects of epistane are just a myth and it really isnt. Not to sure with that though but i does make sense. As at one point people claim that epistane had serm effects.
 
saywutrly said:
A-Dex has been A-OK for my limited use. But, I thought only Letro was actually proven to physically reverse gyno which already resulted in the production of undesirable tissue? That is literally a question. I'm still learning.
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Im not really sure about the undesirable tissue issue. I had a friend use it during a D-bol/Test cycle and he had a little gyno even before the cycle and it def. made a world of a difference. Ive never had to use Letro, but there are alot of people who deal with gyno commonly who swear by Letro. Personally Im good with either Aromasin or Arimidex depending on which one is more accessible to me at the time.
 
rtmilburn said:
I have been hearing recently that the ani-estrogenic effects of epistane are just a myth and it really isnt. Not to sure with that though but i does make sense. As at one point people claim that epistane had serm effects.
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Yea I certainly wouldnt experiment with the epistane WITHOUT having a real AI on hand just in case. In fact, I probably would even bother with it at all. Stick to something traditional that is proven to work.
 
Arimistane is the main ingredient for almost all AI's that are OTC. Form-XT, etc. I tried to post several links but I do not have enough posts, but the links were showing things that showed or proved that Arimistane was actually a stronger AI, than some of those mentioned. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, just showing that there's evidence to counter this.
 
Also, when R dhea was first introduced to Androhard by PP, one of its most addictive traits was that its claim to fame that it could prevent and reverse gyno! People bought the **** out of it too!! What's your feelings on using r dhea?
 
Ive tried researching Arimistane for some time now, and although Ive seen an article from a supplier claiming that Arimistane is even more effective than Formestane, I have not found one person who could prove through blood work that estrogen can be reduced with Arimistane. That doesn't exactly mean that it doesnt work, but when dealing with something like Gyno, I think its a lil safer to use something thats proven, even if it means looking harder for it or paying more. Alot of people go with Arimistane because its cheap and easily available. I have yet to see any Arimistane completely reverse gyno, although I have heard of peoples gyno being reduced a bit, but not completely. As far as R-DHEA I have no experience with it so hopefully someone else can jump in on that question.
 
I think RDHEA a pretty cool product when dosed properly. I definitely do not think it will reverse gyno, despite evidence showing it possesses anti-estrogenic traits
 
rtmilburn said:
Armistane IS NOT an AI..... There is numerous things of blood work showing that it has no effect on estrogen. Some have even showed an increase. It is however a strong diuretic and a moderate cortisol inhibitor.
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Umm yes it is an AI. Did you not see the graphic vaughn posted? One of the most potent...in vitro.
 
All that graph shows is its binding affinity to enzymes in the body... It DOESNT however prove that Arimistane actually lowers estrogen and or reduces Gyno. Like I said, I have researched this quite a bit and cant find one blood test that proves it actually lowered Estrogen.
 
If you wanna say its an AI than I guess technically your right... but that doesnt mean its an effective AI for reducing estrogen and or getting rid of gyno....
 
NoAddedHmones said:
Lolol well thats a completely different kettle of fish isn't it.
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Well I guess but if an AI your using on cycle isnt reducing your estrogen and you are getting gyno anyway, than what is the point exactly? Control Cortisol? Id rather stick with a traditional AI that can do all of the above.... My opinion at least...
 
VaughnTrue said:
I think RDHEA a pretty cool product when dosed properly. I definitely do not think it will reverse gyno, despite evidence showing it possesses anti-estrogenic traits
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What is the real recommended dose for R-dhea? We all know who does and doesn't put appropriate amounts of ingredient in their products. I wish OL UK would have made an (androsterone/r dhea)as opposed to Epi-andro!! OL UK is reaching the trustworthiness in their products that PP had (with quality doses).
 
I'm not saying that Arimistane is the best and greatest or that it will eliminate gyno overnight.... But their is a ton of research showing its AI abilities, and it's binding affinity. Not just one or two, but several. I also have spent several hours researching it all, and honestly the only human trials that proved solid AT REVERSING gyno were Ralox, and Tamox protocols. serms! Not AI's.
 
Darlz said:
Well I guess but if an AI your using on cycle isnt reducing your estrogen and you are getting gyno anyway, than what is the point exactly? Control Cortisol? Id rather stick with a traditional AI that can do all of the above.... My opinion at least...
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Completely agree. My point is that the compound in question is no doubt an Aromatase enzyme inhibitor..in vitro
 
Serm use is for PCT... You shouldnt use an AI during PCT... So Im not sure why you would say serms are more proven. Its a different objective. You take an AI on cycle to reduce the estro sides that come along with certain compounds... Aromasin, Anastrozole, and Letrozone are the ONLY effective AI's for reduce estro sides such as preventing or reducing gyno.. If you havent found any of those in your research sir, Id suggest you keep researching...
 
Darlz said:
Serm use is for PCT... You shouldnt use an AI during PCT... So Im not sure why you would say serms are more proven. Its a different objective. You take an AI on cycle to reduce the estro sides that come along with certain compounds... Aromasin, Anastrozole, and Letrozone are the ONLY effective AI's for reduce estro sides such as preventing or reducing gyno.. If you havent found any of those in your research sir, Id suggest you keep researching...
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"Reversing gyno" is what I meant, not PCT. the said AI's you have mentioned are solid AI's. You misunderstood me, or I explained it wrong.
 
Brick Tannen said:
"Reversing gyno" is what I meant, not PCT. the said AI's you have mentioned are solid AI's. You misunderstood me, or I explained it wrong.
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There is an enormous amount of evidence that Letrozole will reverse gyno... And Im sure alot of people use Aromasin and Arimidex here who can tell you that either one is great for preventing gyno. So again back to Arimistane.. Why bother if you are using a supplement or many that have strong estro-sides and their are more proven options out there?
 
The day Ill change my mind about Arimistane is when someone can prove it completely reduced their gyno OR produce a blood test that actually shows Estrogen being lowered. Otherwise, Id use Formestane or 6Bromo/ATD before i went with Arimistane. This is all just my opinion through my own experience however...
 
Darlz said:
The day Ill change my mind about Arimistane is when someone can prove it completely reduced their gyno OR produce a blood test that actually shows Estrogen being lowered. Otherwise, Id use Formestane or 6Bromo/ATD before i went with Arimistane. This is all just my opinion through my own experience however...
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Which I appreciate. If I was running something hard, for longer periods of time, I'd absolutely have a stronger AI on hand. Honestly with as much as I have ran TD Trest with no issues in the past, I never seen this one coming! Test, then the lesson I guess.
 
it is OK to take Nolvadex during the cycle and it will reduce the amount of aromatizing HOWEVER most don't like this protocol d/t the IGF-1 levels being suppressed thereby hindering gains. With Clomid, I dont see why anyone would use it on cycle when its best function is to restart your Willis and Doodleberries. So why run it when you are in the middle of shutting down your doodle berries?
 
Darlz said:
it is OK to take Nolvadex during the cycle and it will reduce the amount of aromatizing HOWEVER most don't like this protocol d/t the IGF-1 levels being suppressed thereby hindering gains. With Clomid, I dont see why anyone would use it on cycle when its best function is to restart your Willis and Doodleberries. So why run it when you are in the middle of shutting down your doodle berries?
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No nolva doesnt interact with aromatase it binds to estrogen receptors in the breast tissue (amoung others as well) and antagonises them, doesnt effect estrogen levels.
 
Brick Tannen said:
Which I appreciate. If I was running something hard, for longer periods of time, I'd absolutely have a stronger AI on hand. Honestly with as much as I have ran TD Trest with no issues in the past, I never seen this one coming! Test, then the lesson I guess.
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You are absolutely right!.. The necessity of a strong AI really is for the stronger compounds.. Guys who are planning on an doing an H-drol cycle or an Epistane only or even a 1Andro/4Andro cycle most likely wont need anything that strong and you could get by just fine with an OTC AI.
 
twistedfords said:
What about guys who use Clomid and novla on cycle?
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Raloxifene is a much better on cycle serm but should still only be taken if absolutely needed imo.
 
I have read in the past that old school body builders would take a serm on cycle so it was easier to move into pct. Kind like using hcg on cycle to keep your boys working. But they didnt have hcg.
 
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