arimidex vs aromasin during TRT

Jupiter

New member
Which AI would be preferable during TRT? Pros and Cons of both? Long term health benefits / concerns?
 
Jupiter said:
Which AI would be preferable during TRT? Pros and Cons of both? Long term health benefits / concerns?
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Arimidex is well understood and is self limiting, it is rare that is can push your E2 too low. (Some AIs, at least femara, can take some guys dangerously low on scant doses... not predictable.) Only 1mg/wk is required in many cases. I am now on 1.22mg/wk. TRT Doctors know how to use it and what to expect, and dose-response VS E2 levels etc. Arimidex has no known direct side effects.

Aromasin has a dose of many mgs/day [not week]. It is simply more expensive in many cases. But arimidex from a pharmacy is costly. Side effects? I don't know... but you are talking way more of it and large doses in general may imply some sides, making, in general, smaller dose amounts attractive.

I did a lot of PMs on another BB where a guy did aromasin after reading the hype, and had poor results. He then switched to arimidex, but I have not heard how that worked for him, but there is no doubt in my mind about its effectiveness.
 
Thanks ksman. Could you or anyone else expound on the 'self limiting' aspect of arimidex? Is aromasin not self limiting (do to being a suicide inhibitor)?
 
Jupiter said:
Thanks ksman. Could you or anyone else expound on the 'self limiting' aspect of arimidex? Is aromasin not self limiting (do to being a suicide inhibitor)?
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Aromasin simply often does not work well despite all of the hype about being a suicide inhibitor. I don't think that there is an issue with aromasin taking E2 too low or having an unpredictable response like femara. The key point is that arimidex/anastrozole is effective, predicable, free of side and low dose.

Again, when young normal males took 1mg arimidex per day, or 2mg per day, their final E2 levels were the same in that one study and I think the level was 17, which is not dangerous as the ideal target level of E2 for most males is 17-20 from a libido point of view. Libido seems to be a fast response to E2 levels and make a very good proxy for effect and effectiveness. So with 7 or 14 times the typical TRT dose, the effect was the same... self limiting.
 
KSman said:
Aromasin simply often does not work well despite all of the hype about being a suicide inhibitor. I don't think that there is an issue with aromasin taking E2 too low or having an unpredictable response like femara. The key point is that arimidex/anastrozole is effective, predicable, free of side and low dose.

Again, when young normal males took 1mg arimidex per day, or 2mg per day, their final E2 levels were the same in that one study and I think the level was 17, which is not dangerous as the ideal target level of E2 for most males is 17-20 from a libido point of view. Libido seems to be a fast response to E2 levels and make a very good proxy for effect and effectiveness. So with 7 or 14 times the typical TRT dose, the effect was the same... self limiting.
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K-sman...so you do not think .5mg adex EOD will drive my estradiol too low on 150mg of test + hcg??
 
SuperSamurai said:
K-sman...so you do not think .5mg adex EOD will drive my estradiol too low on 150mg of test + hcg??
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Probably not, but you would need an serum E2 test to know. And it would be unusual for adex to take you "to low" in any case. Without knowing body weight, %BF and current E2 level, its a wild guess. 1.75/wk might be more than you need, but might work well... as determined by blood work. If you work up to that dose guided by E2 lab results, then you would know that you had things right as opposed to getting into a self-limiting effect.
 
KSman said:
Probably not, but you would need an serum E2 test to know. And it would be unusual for adex to take you "to low" in any case. Without knowing body weight, %BF and current E2 level, its a wild guess. 1.75/wk might be more than you need, but might work well... as determined by blood work. If you work up to that dose guided by E2 lab results, then you would know that you had things right as opposed to getting into a self-limiting effect.
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.5 mgs EOD every other day drove my freind from e2 of 60 down to 7 in a matter of 14 days so just be carefull with this stuff and again 33 bucks is cheap enough to find out if you are on target or have your dr monitor you..
150 mgs is not TRT and more of steroid dosage along with hcg probably put you into the 1500-1600 range no wonder e2 is high. Lower test dosage to 125 mgs and go from there e2 might drop
 
Thanks for the reply Dr John.

Why do you feel it would be easier on the brain? Would that depend on the dose or simply the different properties of the two?
 
Me and the three other voices in my head :) I know in treatment in the past that with E shutdown that i've had quite a bit of 'issues' as sides that went away with increased/normal E.
 
from SERMs, AIs or SIs?
What sort of issues?


I quickly checked out some things on estrogen, high estradiol increases risk of stroke in elderly men.
 
Dr. John said:
We've got you down to only three now. Progress!

Yes, some E is absolutley necessary for cognitive function, libido, overall health!
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Mainly your cardiovascular system, neurotransmitters, puts lead in your pipe, as well as protection from free radicals and ROS in brain and other areas of the body..e2 actually increases gluthione production (hard to beleive I know)
 
KSman said:
Again, when young normal males took 1mg arimidex per day, or 2mg per day, their final E2 levels were the same in that one study and I think the level was 17, which is not dangerous as the ideal target level of E2 for most males is 17-20 from a libido point of view. Libido seems to be a fast response to E2 levels and make a very good proxy for effect and effectiveness. So with 7 or 14 times the typical TRT dose, the effect was the same... self limiting.
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I was using .5mg of arimidex a day ( too much/ too often) and it demolished my HDL levels, went down to approx 7. My MD flipped and told me top stop it completely and next test I was 28. I would say there are definite, serious SE when used in this manner. I it's going to be used .25mg twice a week should be better.
 
RJW said:
I was using .5mg of arimidex a day ( too much/ too often) and it demolished my HDL levels, went down to approx 7. My MD flipped and told me top stop it completely and next test I was 28. I would say there are definite, serious SE when used in this manner. I it's going to be used .25mg twice a week should be better.
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My comments about 'self limiting' were sound conclusions based in the data in published research. I do not have any confindence in that data at this point.

There is a good linear response for most. Most will do well with a starting dose of 1mg/week when on 100mg/week of a test ester. The exception is the few, not rare, who are Arimidex over-responders. These guy will tank their E2 on that dose and such guys need to take 1/4th to 1/8th of the expected dose.

For over responders, they will soon feel like crap and might feel a brief surge of libido as there E2 falls through the sweet spot. I this case, stop Adex for 6 days then start the smaller dose. Dose EOD if possible.

In any case, one should aim for serum E2=22pg/ml. Scale a dose based on labs as follows: If E=22 and dose was 1.0mg/week, new dose would be 1.0mg/wk *32/22. If all is well, if heavier, one can scale the 1.0mg/week up against a 160# reference weight until labs are obtained.

Labquest serum E2 is good. Quest diagnostics must be the "ultra high sensitivity" serum E2 test.
 
KSman said:
My comments about 'self limiting' were sound conclusions based in the data in published research. I do not have any confindence in that data at this point.

There is a good linear response for most. Most will do well with a starting dose of 1mg/week when on 100mg/week of a test ester. The exception is the few, not rare, who are Arimidex over-responders. These guy will tank their E2 on that dose and such guys need to take 1/4th to 1/8th of the expected dose.

For over responders, they will soon feel like crap and might feel a brief surge of libido as there E2 falls through the sweet spot. I this case, stop Adex for 6 days then start the smaller dose. Dose EOD if possible.

In any case, one should aim for serum E2=22pg/ml. Scale a dose based on labs as follows: If E=22 and dose was 1.0mg/week, new dose would be 1.0mg/wk *32/22. If all is well, if heavier, one can scale the 1.0mg/week up against a 160# reference weight until labs are obtained.

Labquest serum E2 is good. Quest diagnostics must be the "ultra high sensitivity" serum E2 test.
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ultra e2 goal is <7-17 range This is best back up by rhiens testing in many clients as well.
 
I am currently taking 200/mg week test cyp. I am looking at arimidex for water retention problems. I am also on HRT and only supposed to be be using 150mg a week but I bump it to 200mg/w. I am having more water retention than I would like. I don' t want to eliminate estrogen as I need my libido. I am also taking 100mcg of synthroid for a thyroid prescription. I want to try arimdex as it sounds as though this will be the most effective for lowering estrogen which should in turn lower my water retention. I don' t know what e2 is but from reading from the convo it sounds like it relates to estrogen. Please let me know your thoughts and any advice. I am 31yrs 185lbs, 5'7" 7-9%bf
 
ace7863 said:
I am currently taking 200/mg week test cyp. I am looking at arimidex for water retention problems. I am also on HRT and only supposed to be be using 150mg a week but I bump it to 200mg/w. I am having more water retention than I would like. I don' t want to eliminate estrogen as I need my libido. I am also taking 100mcg of synthroid for a thyroid prescription. I want to try arimdex as it sounds as though this will be the most effective for lowering estrogen which should in turn lower my water retention. I don' t know what e2 is but from reading from the convo it sounds like it relates to estrogen. Please let me know your thoughts and any advice. I am 31yrs 185lbs, 5'7" 7-9%bf
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With your bf there should be no need for it
increasing the T may have offset another hormone such as adrenal/thyroid
 
The Matrix said:
With your bf there should be no need for it
increasing the T may have offset another hormone such as adrenal/thyroid
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Really, I am currently taking synthroid for a thyroid condition. Would that have impacted that level? What impact would the higher T have. I haven't been on the test cyp for long at that dose as I was on Testim prior. What adrenal issues could be to blame?
 
I have to bump this thread. I have been taking arimidex (l-dex) for TRT for some time now. I have aromasin laying around (I tried it with hcg and dermacrine a long time ago). I recently started using a small bit of aromasin again instead of the l-dex and wow...I love it so much better. One small dose at night and the next morning I can cut diamonds. It's too bad I can't take aromasin on an ongoing basis, been warned against it due to it being a steroidal AI. But it is really good when used only twice per week and it also upregulates IGF (my levels are low normal), a nice side to it's AI properties.

I don't usually have water retention issues because I typically am always on a CKD which I occassionally take breaks from (low carb diets are diuretic in nature). The only reason I take an AI is due to occassional slight pain in my left side (very small gyno there) or sometimes I get slightly itchy nips and occassional ED which tells me my e2 has gone too high. I'm pretty good at reading if it's too high or too low now without needing constant bloodwork.

I'm cutting now too so hopefully I will have less need for an AI. I am about 15% bf, most around the midsection due to years of low-normal test and probably fatty liver / insulin resistance. Fairly lean/vascular elsewhere.
 
Gutterpump said:
I have to bump this thread. I have been taking arimidex (l-dex) for TRT for some time now. I have aromasin laying around (I tried it with hcg and dermacrine a long time ago). I recently started using a small bit of aromasin again instead of the l-dex and wow...I love it so much better. One small dose at night and the next morning I can cut diamonds. It's too bad I can't take aromasin on an ongoing basis, been warned against it due to it being a steroidal AI. But it is really good when used only twice per week and it also upregulates IGF (my levels are low normal), a nice side to it's AI properties.

I don't usually have water retention issues because I typically am always on a CKD which I occassionally take breaks from (low carb diets are diuretic in nature). The only reason I take an AI is due to occassional slight pain in my left side (very small gyno there) or sometimes I get slightly itchy nips and occassional ED which tells me my e2 has gone too high. I'm pretty good at reading if it's too high or too low now without needing constant bloodwork.

I'm cutting now too so hopefully I will have less need for an AI. I am about 15% bf, most around the midsection due to years of low-normal test and probably fatty liver / insulin resistance.
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GEt your gut issues under control and plug the hole then your estrogen issues should not be a problem anymore. I am coming to conclusion that the gut holds the key to proper liver detoxifcation to estrodial. In future may be adex will not even be required.
 
Yeah definitely following that advice. Getting some saccromyces boulardis on order and eating maybe 10 whole eggs per day. That much cholesterol should help rebuild cell membranes.

I also need to add more fiber into my diet and maybe do a bowel clense every other week.
 
Gutterpump said:
Yeah definitely following that advice. Getting some saccromyces boulardis on order and eating maybe 10 whole eggs per day. That much cholesterol should help rebuild cell membranes.

I also need to add more fiber into my diet and maybe do a bowel clense every other week.
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My theory also explains why we are low on cholesterol no matter what we eat.
The toxin causes cholesterol to be being converted to its oxidized form causing destablization of cell membranes. This also explains why low cholesterol causes disruption in brain transmitters, leaky gut, and also alteration in hormone profile, methylation. This chemical reaction is the start of the hormonal cascade that starts the decline of health leading into parkinson, heart disease, and other neurological diseases, depression. I am currently working with my DR are checking for elevated levels in our patience as the cause of all the hormonal and mitchondrial alterations
 
The Matrix said:
My theory also explains why we are low on cholesterol no matter what we eat.
The toxin causes cholesterol to be being converted to its oxidized form causing destablization of cell membranes. This also explains why low cholesterol causes disruption in brain transmitters, leaky gut, and also alteration in hormone profile, methylation. This chemical reaction is the start of the hormonal cascade that starts the decline of health leading into parkinson, heart disease, and other neurological diseases, depression. I am currently working with my DR are checking for elevated levels in our patience as the cause of all the hormonal and mitchondrial alterations
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So what is your recommendation for a healthy gut/digestive system?
 
The Matrix said:
I am currently working with my DR are checking for elevated levels in our patience as the cause of all the hormonal and mitchondrial alterations
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What are you checking for in your patients? Elevated levels of which substance/toxin?

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For a healthy gut it's probably best to do these things:

Bowel cleanse/flush, several of them, while on a simple clean high fiber diet, no simple sugars or starches transitioning into a low carb diet while taking some saccromyces boulardis to fight possible chlorella. Clean the bowels, getting rid of overgrowth, and this should start to improve the intestinal membrane. You could then start adding in proper probiotics to further build intestinal strength and bolster the membranes.

A low carb diet should help to kill off chlorella, since it thrives on sugars. Also eating a lot of coconut oil, as this is known to keep people yeast free and bacteria free and also boost your metablism and digestion.

These are just random bits of information that I've been collecting though. There are probably food allergies at play with most people too, but cutting out grains should take out most of these. A lot of people are silent celiac sufferers and don't know it I am sure. I recently got tested negative for it though but I know I feel better when I don't have grains in my diet. Certain sprouted grains are ok though and high in protein too. It also helps to steer away from an acidic diet...bacteria and pathogens thrive in this environment.
 
The Matrix said:
My theory also explains why we are low on cholesterol no matter what we eat.
The toxin causes cholesterol to be being converted to its oxidized form causing destablization of cell membranes. This also explains why low cholesterol causes disruption in brain transmitters, leaky gut, and also alteration in hormone profile, methylation. This chemical reaction is the start of the hormonal cascade that starts the decline of health leading into parkinson, heart disease, and other neurological diseases, depression. I am currently working with my DR are checking for elevated levels in our patience as the cause of all the hormonal and mitchondrial alterations
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That is because our Lipid Profile is governed by our genetics.
 
Dr. John said:
That is because our Lipid Profile is governed by our genetics.
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I concur 100% genetically my cholesterol has been down to 90 and average 115 when I was 16 year old. Genetically I was probably vulnerable to stress and had a few strikes against me before I even begun. My prebirth background would have disposed me these stress related issues. Given the "healthy" lifestyle I chose actually ended up putting more undue stress on my body thinking that I was doing something good for my health. In the end I found out what was healthy was in the eye of the beholder. Combination of my genetics combined with improper lifestyle almost ended up taking my life. Now I just have to work on changing my mind frame, life choices, and nutrition to get me the best response. One thing that has helped my recovery the most is to stop reading the damn boards and to follow my own intuition. The most important is to trust the person that I am working with. The best person to work with is the ones that have not been corrupted by misinformation by some boards.

Saying that I have grown fond of is
"As a human we are born into enlightment, but as we age we be corrupted and mislead by the society we live in."
 
How does a great thread like this die :(

BUMP
 
sammpedd88 said:
Try a pill cutter.
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I have an expensive pill cuter ($9.99) but I can never cut into 4 equal. First cut seems to always cut 60/40.


I was thinking about grinding a months worth and weigh and then do the math on what I want and then capping , but I think it might be a crazy idea.
 
When I cut my arimidex I can tell they are not equal in size and I haven't had issues with it. I was really paranoid about it at first.
 
sammpedd88 said:
When I cut my arimidex I can tell they are not equal in size and I haven't had issues with it. I was really paranoid about it at first.
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Thanks for reassurance. I have not had any issue even. I'll find something else to worry about.
 
SweetLou321 said:
I use liquid. Or I'd just eye ball it. In the grand scheme it shouldn't matter to much
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I won't use liquid unless it comes from a pharmacy or compound pharmacy.

Yeah, latter statement is correct. I've never precut a months worth, only 1 pill at a time.
 
sammpedd88 said:
When I cut my arimidex I can tell they are not equal in size and I haven't had issues with it. I was really paranoid about it at first.
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Good advice. I do the exact same thing.
 
So, are you all recommending switching from arimidex (anastrozole) to aromasin? From reading the Anastrozole affects lipids, can bring on brain fog and can lower sexual desire. Thoughts?
 
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