Post Cycle Therapy: A User's Guide

[warpyfunch]

Way too much vit E info in here for me to process lol sounds like a solid addition to PCT though, as does the new TEST1FY Pro!

thinking about adding it for on cycle as well. for cholesterol benefits on cycle, and for potential leydig cell sensitivity in pct.

 

[BamBam0319]

thinking about adding it for on cycle as well. for cholesterol benefits on cycle, and for potential leydig cell sensitivity in pct.

Vitamin E or Test1fy?

 

[warpyfunch]

Vitamin E or Test1fy?

Tocotrienols

 

[BamBam0319]

Tocotrienols

Oh yeah probably a good idea. I have a pretty damn good support system set up for the cycle I just started but always interested in learning more and doing things even more safely.

 

[UncleSarm]

Hm, also interesting, comparing the labels between Swanson and Healthy Origin versions, while both claim 50mg of suprabio, the breakdown of individual tocotrienols is slightly different.

swanson, which i posted before:
per 50mg:
d-Gamma tocotrienol 23.2 mg
d-Alpha tocotrienol 15.4 mg
d-Delta tocotrienol 8.6 mg
d-Beta tocotrienol 2.8 mg

healthy origins:
per 50mg:
d-Gamma tocotrienol 26 mg
d-Alpha tocotrienol 14.3 mg
d-Delta tocotrienol 7.2 mg
d-Beta tocotrienol 2.5 mg

not sure what to make of that given that they both claim to be licensing the same complex. jarrow does not list the fractions individually.

Toco-8 suggested by Toren has the following for 153mg:
d-gamma-tocotrienol 55mg (18.3mg per 50mg of product)
d-alpha-tocotrienol 36mg (12mg per 50mg of product)
d-delta-tocotrienol 21mg (7mg per 50mg of product)
d-beta-tocotrienol 7mg (2.3mg per 50mg of product)

So the values are different per 50mg of product, but the ratio seems very roughly the same.

 

[rtmilburn]

At the very least, if you want to take an E supplement (for health reasons), take it for a specific documented need (very helpful in that regard) and use a full-spectrum E with all 8 fractions. The original in that regard was Toco-8 by Primordial Performance.

It would also have be nice to see the breakdown of the amounts of the 4 tocopherols and the 4 tocotrienols used in the supplementation or if they just used a single fraction tocopherol. .[/URL]

Btw botanicalcraft is made by the same people who owned PP. Also it is the same exact product plus a mixed vit A complex and different flavoring. There is actually some post by the owners of PP talking about it on other threads about it.

 

[Toren]

Btw botanicalcraft is made by the same people who owned PP. Also it is the same exact product plus a mixed vit A complex and different flavoring. There is actually some post by the owners of PP talking about it on other threads about it.

Cool. Good to know. I think Toco-8 went the way of the dinosaur when the gov took down PP.

 

[UncleSarm]

[...] It's pretty rare for people to be deficient in vitamin E now a days and if you take a multi-vitamin, you wlll not be deficient. [...]

It's not necessarily that people are deficient in vitamin E, because mixed tocopherols are everywhere these days, I'm more wondering if people might be deficient in tocotrienols. In which case supplementing might be very useful.

 

[UncleSarm]

Cool. Good to know. I think Toco-8 went the way of the dinosaur when the gov took down PP.

With a quick Google search, the first result was Predator Nutrition showing it in stock for £19.99, despite PP closing at the end of 2012.

 

[Toren]

It's not necessarily that people are deficient in vitamin E, because mixed tocopherols are everywhere these days, I'm more wondering if people might be deficient in tocotrienols. In which case supplementing might be very useful.

Absolutely. That was kind of the main point in my post and why I take a trienol complex but not a tocopherol complex. I mentioned the abundance of tocopherols and the deficiency of trienols in our diet it in in the last big paragraph in that post.

 

[rtmilburn]

Absolutely. That was kind of the main point in my post and why I take a trienol complex but not a tocopherol complex. I mentioned the abundance of tocopherols and the deficiency of trienols in our diet it in in the last big paragraph in that post.

Actually there is an abundance of alpha-tocpherol(this is because to the us government this is vit E and the others aren't) in our diets but we actually don't get much of the others.

 

[Toren]

Actually there is an abundance of alpha-tocpherol(this is because to the us government this is vit E and the others aren't) in our diets but we actually don't get much of the others.

I agree Alpha-tocopherol (acetate) is the main form of vitamin E used in vitamin suppplements (RDA recognition), not to mention skin care products as well. The reason for this is beacuse it was the first isomer to be discovered, as well as the most studied form. It may be the cheapest to produce as well but I am not sure. I believe I also read that the body favours alpha as well.

I am not sure of the specifc breakdown of each isomer in our diets but I can tell you that both alpha and gamma (tocopherol) can be quite readily found in various nuts and seeds; As well as both being found in high quantities in the most (mainstream) used oils in the North-American food diet.

As I mentioned, if you are looking for an overall health boost than a full-spectrum mixed toco product is probably the best bet. For me, I am after the trienols for a sepcific reason (hair and cardio-protective).

 

[UncleSarm]

Absolutely. That was kind of the main point in my post and why I take a trienol complex but not a tocopherol complex. I mentioned the abundance of tocopherols and the deficiency of trienols in our diet it in in the last big paragraph in that post.

Ah, got it. BTW, thanks for sharing the info on tocotrienols, I had never heard of them. So it was some good research.

 

[All Creation]

*Warning: I'm a greenie and may be jumping in over my head with this discussion!*

good stuff!

If i'm reading correctly, though, the bolded section on exemestane for pct seems to imply using it instead of a SERM, rather than in addition to a SERM. I believe this needs some clarification. As I understand it, in the above scenario, you would be relying on HCG to raise test, and then using the exemestane to block the conversion of that higher test to estro. Makes sense, right? But the major, major downside to this, is that HCG works by mimicking the effects of LH, stimulating the LH receptors on the Leydig cells, which in turn produce more testosterone. Unfortunately, this usage of HCG is actually overstimulating the LH receptors, and causes them to desensitize. Then, once you're back to producing your own natural LH, it won't do any good, as your LH receptors won't be listening. This is why if you do use HCG, it is recommended to use before the end of your cycle for a little kick start, and not during PCT, where your goal is to restore natural HTPA function.

So, backing up, you would NOT be able to use any AI, even one as awesome as exemestane, solo in place of a SERM to effectively raise test post-cycle while you are in a suppressed state. True, exemestane can raise test levels in normal, healthy individuals by blocking its conversion to estrogen. I mean, of course, right? If you're blocking the aromatization of test to estro, then the test that would have converted will remain as test, thus higher test. In addition, your body detects that estro levels are too low, and produces even more test with the goal of it aromatizing. But post-cycle, you are suppressed, and you do not have any test to aromatize. What good is blocking aromatization if you don't have any test to convert anyway? You're just wasting your AI then.

Now compare that to the mechanism of a SERM, which actually stimulates your own production of LH to tickle the Leydig cells, rather than doing it via an overkill exogenous source like HCG. Your Leydig cells in turn start secreting test, and as your test level climbs, it starts aromatizing. Luckily, even though you now have high estro, the SERM stops it from causing any damage. Then the best use of an AI is debatable, as I brought up in my earlier post. Do you use the AI to keep the estro in check throughout PCT? Do you just do a little bit of an AI hit at the end to knock estro down once you come off the SERM? Or, since the goal of PCT is to get back to your natural state, do you just let your body do its own thing and dispose of the excess estro after tapering the SERM, which it will, just a bit slower. I don't know!

Deep breath! So yea, this is actually some complex stuff, so please jump in if anything I thought I knew is wrong.

I took that section to mean that very thing, that an Exemestane only PCT is viable and even preferred. He definitely makes it clear in the bolded paragraphs here earlier in the post:

Aromasin - The King of Anti-Estrogens.

This post is kind of long, but take the time to read it, it's probably the most important thing you'll ever read if you're a BB'er (haha well maybe not, but there's some gold in here)

Exemestane, sold under the name Aromasin? by Pfizer, is an orally available suicidal aromatase inhibitor. <-- This sentence describes exactly why exemestane is the king of Anti-E's for bodybuilding purposes.

Because exemestane is steroidal this gives it a favorable estrogen suppression profile and confers a few really awesome benefits over other anti-estrogens both on paper and in real experience. Steroidal anti-estrogens have the benefit of being lipid-friendly and they all lower SHBG which increases the ratio of free to bound testosterone, which as many experienced BB'ers know can have a relatively profound positive impact on gains.

I think it is important to understand how drugs work in order to properly dose them, exemestane is a suicidal aromatase inhibitor, this means that it binds with aromatase enzymes and as it does so permanently disables the enzyme and destroys it. Hence the "suicidal" this chemical is like a kamikaze pilot out to destroy your aromatase enzymes which is what makes it so special.

Exemestane's half life in the male body is actually very short (~9 hours) and it is quickly eliminated, however, since as soon as it enters your bloodstream it quickly destroys 80-90% of the aromatase enzymes present in your body, it is effective in maintaining significant reductions in estrogen for up to 72 hours after a single 25mg dose. Estrogen levels only begin to rise again after your body has begun to make new aromatase enzymes to replace the ones destro by exemestane.

There is a great study on the pharmacokinetics of exemestane in men which found the following:
-24 hours after one 25mg dose estrogen levels are reduced by 70-80%
-72 hours later estrogen levels are still 40% below baseline even though the drug itself is almost completely eliminated
-120 hours after initial dose estrogen levels return to baseline (without rebounding)

this means that you can find the timing and dosage that works for you, I've seen some guys recommend between 25mg ED and 12.5mg e4d, and you can see why both are effective while providing different levels of estrogen suppression, and it is this flexibility that makes exemestane such a versatile Anti-E.

BUT WAIT, there's more. Aromasin is also a badass PCT drug! In males exemestane was found to increase total testosterone by ~60% after 10 days @ 25mg/day, however the same study found that while it increased total testosterone by 60% free testosterone was increased by over 100 percent! that's right, it DOUBLES bio-available testosterone (natty of course).

I can tell you this much, when I take aromasin for PCT the results are dramatic, honestly my Libido is never absent at any point during PCT and I absolutely feel great within a matter of days, and this is taking 12.5mg ED, the only side effect i notice is stiff joints and other stiff areas

The good:
-powerful aromatase inhibitor capable of stopping gynecomastia completely on its own (for aromatizing compounds)
-has powerful bloat-reduction effects
-lowers SHBG, increasing free test & makes all other anabolic steroids more bio-available (read: more gains)
-can actually boost Libido on and off cycle
-increases IGF-1
-NO adverse changes in lipid profiles for men (granted if you are using it on cycle this may be different)
-is NOT liver toxic
-no estrogen rebound

the bad:
-typical aromatase inhibitor issues here include stiff joints and possibly lethargy
-more difficult to come by than a-dex or letro

He does mention pairing Exem with HCG, but I think he makes a stronger case for Exem by itself.

So long as his cited numbers and studies are accurate, he claims that lowering Estro is enough to trigger the body's natural LH production to make more Test to be converted to Estro. He also cites huge percentage increases in Test by taking Exem.

I'm assuming that Exem works by a similar mechanism as a SERM in that LH production will be triggered because the body is not able to sense adequate Estro. So as long as the LH is being triggered this is essentially the same end result as a SERM.

So does it really matter whether you are normally producing natural Test or if you are suppressed? It seems like it wouldn't matter because either way the body will recognize that Estro is low and natural test production must be stimulated so Test can be converted to Estro.

I may be waaaay off in left field, so please discuss and educate me.

 

[yates84]

Bump for the new guys. Feel free to ask questions

 

[warpyfunch]

*Warning: I'm a greenie and may be jumping in over my head with this discussion!*



I took that section to mean that very thing, that an Exemestane only PCT is viable and even preferred. He definitely makes it clear in the bolded paragraphs here earlier in the post:




He does mention pairing Exem with HCG, but I think he makes a stronger case for Exem by itself.

So long as his cited numbers and studies are accurate, he claims that lowering Estro is enough to trigger the body's natural LH production to make more Test to be converted to Estro. He also cites huge percentage increases in Test by taking Exem.

I'm assuming that Exem works by a similar mechanism as a SERM in that LH production will be triggered because the body is not able to sense adequate Estro. So as long as the LH is being triggered this is essentially the same end result as a SERM.

So does it really matter whether you are normally producing natural Test or if you are suppressed? It seems like it wouldn't matter because either way the body will recognize that Estro is low and natural test production must be stimulated so Test can be converted to Estro.

I may be waaaay off in left field, so please discuss and educate me.

Was hoping someone else would jump in on this, cuz honestly I don't have a solid answer, and could be completely wrong myself. The way I understand it is that SERM is preferred over AI for these reasons:

In pct, the goal is to get back to baseline hormone levels. Everything is out of whack, but given time the body will regulate and get everything back in order. To expedite the specific process of getting test into active production again, we want to convince the pituitary that there is a shortage of estrogen, so that it starts pumping out FSH and LH. True, actually lowering estrogen will accomplish this, however what the SERM does in blocking the estro from being recognized at the pituitary is more effective. From the pituitary perspective it looks like there's zero estro, but it keeps the estro present in our body, which has its own positive effects. And with an AI, you would not want to lower estro to the same point that would mimic the illusion created by the SERM, because that would create more side effects than are necessary. If you did use an AI that way, you would effectively be creating a new artificial hormone imbalance in an effort to correct the imbalance already present. Better to block the estro from doing any damage while giving the body time to regulate it on its own, or if anything, use an AI in combo with the SERM to keep estro at a moderate level, but not to crush it.

The other aspect has to do with how an AI actually works, which is right in the name: aromatase inhibitor. The AI lowers estro by preventing test from aromatizing. Post-cycle, your test is suppressed, so there is not much test to aromatize in the first place, thus reducing the effectiveness of using an AI solo for that purpose. Also, in the bolded section where the author claims exemestane can double the level of free test, the study he cites appears to have been conducted with natty subjects, which is a totally different situation from where we are with post-cycle suppression. What's more, that doubling of free test is undoubtedly being seen due not only to the AI stimulating extra test production, to whatever level that's occurring. It's also due to the simple fact that by preventing a portion of your test's conversion to estro, you are keeping more of it as test, inflating the number, and creating the perhaps misleading idea that that higher test level is solely due to increased gonad output.

Long story short, my understanding is that an AI like exem can have some effect of stimulating new test production, but that everything points toward a SERM being more effective toward that end. Exem can be used in combination to the SERM in an effort to keep circulating estro from getting too high, but using it solo for the purpose of stimulating FSH and LH production would mean crushing estro levels down to the point where it's creating one problem to fix another. The SERM is able to mimic the positive pituitary effects of having very low estro, without the negative effects everywhere else that would come from crushing it in reality.

That's all I got.

 

[BamBam0319]

I think your best option would be to use a SERM and have exemestane on hand in order to keep estrogen under control while your test bounces back

 

[All Creation]

That was a great response and makes sense. Thanks, Yates!

On a semi-unrelated note:

When running a dual SERM PCT of Nolva/Clomid is it advisable to do half the normal dose of each since you are taking two separate compounds?

So rather than 50/50/25/25 and 20/20/10/10 go with 25-10/25-10/12.5-5/12.5-5.

Or does this fall too low below an efficacious dose for both?

 

[The_Old_Guy]

That was a great response and makes sense. Thanks, Yates!

On a semi-unrelated note:

When running a dual SERM PCT of Nolva/Clomid is it advisable to do half the normal dose of each since you are taking two separate compounds?

So rather than 50/50/25/25 and 20/20/10/10 go with 25-10/25-10/12.5-5/12.5-5.

Or does this fall too low below an efficacious dose for both?

I just run normal doses (although my current Clomid is 40mg/ml, so 40/40/20/20 is fine) - who wants to deal with those tiny a$$ lines on the syringe? Also, since some properties are unique to each (ie. Nolva and Gyno) - I just stick with the std dosing - haven't noticed anything bad.

 

[warpyfunch]

That was a great response and makes sense. Thanks, Yates!

I'm going to take getting mistaken for yates as the most extreme of compliments. :biggthumpup:

 

[yates84]

Was hoping someone else would jump in on this, cuz honestly I don't have a solid answer, and could be completely wrong myself. The way I understand it is that SERM is preferred over AI for these reasons:

In pct, the goal is to get back to baseline hormone levels. Everything is out of whack, but given time the body will regulate and get everything back in order. To expedite the specific process of getting test into active production again, we want to convince the pituitary that there is a shortage of estrogen, so that it starts pumping out FSH and LH. True, actually lowering estrogen will accomplish this, however what the SERM does in blocking the estro from being recognized at the pituitary is more effective. From the pituitary perspective it looks like there's zero estro, but it keeps the estro present in our body, which has its own positive effects. And with an AI, you would not want to lower estro to the same point that would mimic the illusion created by the SERM, because that would create more side effects than are necessary. If you did use an AI that way, you would effectively be creating a new artificial hormone imbalance in an effort to correct the imbalance already present. Better to block the estro from doing any damage while giving the body time to regulate it on its own, or if anything, use an AI in combo with the SERM to keep estro at a moderate level, but not to crush it.

The other aspect has to do with how an AI actually works, which is right in the name: aromatase inhibitor. The AI lowers estro by preventing test from aromatizing. Post-cycle, your test is suppressed, so there is not much test to aromatize in the first place, thus reducing the effectiveness of using an AI solo for that purpose. Also, in the bolded section where the author claims exemestane can double the level of free test, the study he cites appears to have been conducted with natty subjects, which is a totally different situation from where we are with post-cycle suppression. What's more, that doubling of free test is undoubtedly being seen due not only to the AI stimulating extra test production, to whatever level that's occurring. It's also due to the simple fact that by preventing a portion of your test's conversion to estro, you are keeping more of it as test, inflating the number, and creating the perhaps misleading idea that that higher test level is solely due to increased gonad output.

Long story short, my understanding is that an AI like exem can have some effect of stimulating new test production, but that everything points toward a SERM being more effective toward that end. Exem can be used in combination to the SERM in an effort to keep circulating estro from getting too high, but using it solo for the purpose of stimulating FSH and LH production would mean crushing estro levels down to the point where it's creating one problem to fix another. The SERM is able to mimic the positive pituitary effects of having very low estro, without the negative effects everywhere else that would come from crushing it in reality.

That's all I got.

Very solid answer

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

could nolvadex cause loss of libido in PCT?

 

[yates84]

could nolvadex cause loss of libido in PCT?

Yes but so can so many other factors. What was your cycle and what is your pct?

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

Yes but so can so many other factors. What was your cycle and what is your pct?

I ran Mass GH By OL second run of it, first run was killer and recovered perfectly. I ran Arimacare Pro during cycle to keep prolactin down. and a few natty t boosters to combat any lethargy and my entire cycle was on point. Thats was my first cycle this cycle no side besides the first week i started I had some ichy nips id attribute to prolactin because i hadnt got my arimare pro in yet, but that was only about 5-6 days and hopped on arimacare with no problems. Erections/balls stayed pretty well during entire cycle. My PCT is Sup3r PCT and Rebirth from BLR with nolvadex 20/20/10/10 im on week 2 of PCT and have some libido issues. I got pre cycle bloods everything was good, waiting till post PCT for new bloods, think i should go sooner?

I took a 3 month break besides these 2 cycles as my Mass GH cycle was 4 weeks and pct was 4 weeks so i did time on cycle+PCT and then added an extra month for safe keeping.

 

[yates84]

I ran Mass GH By OL second run of it, first run was killer and recovered perfectly. I ran Arimacare Pro during cycle to keep prolactin down. and a few natty t boosters to combat any lethargy and my entire cycle was on point. Thats was my first cycle this cycle no side besides the first week i started I had some ichy nips id attribute to prolactin because i hadnt got my arimare pro in yet, but that was only about 5-6 days and hopped on arimacare with no problems. Erections/balls stayed pretty well during entire cycle. My PCT is Sup3r PCT and Rebirth from BLR with nolvadex 20/20/10/10 im on week 2 of PCT and have some libido issues. I got pre cycle bloods everything was good, waiting till post PCT for new bloods, think i should go sooner?

I took a 3 month break besides these 2 cycles as my Mass GH cycle was 4 weeks and pct was 4 weeks so i did time on cycle+PCT and then added an extra month for safe keeping.

You should bounce back after pct and feel more like yourself again. You could always grab some lj100 for after pct, it is great at boosting libido post cycle.

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

You should bounce back after pct and feel more like yourself again. You could always grab some lj100 for after pct, it is great at boosting libido post cycle.

have about 10 bottles of it alrdy, huge OL fan! Thanks for info, repped.

 

[HardB0iled]

You should bounce back after pct and feel more like yourself again. You could always grab some lj100 for after pct, it is great at boosting libido post cycle.

have about 10 bottles of it alrdy, huge OL fan! Thanks for info, repped.

It looks like I'm going to have to make a purchase.

I'm 8 days into my first ever PCT and this loss of libido is starting to freak me out. In 12 years of marriage I have never passed on sex until this week.

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

It looks like I'm going to have to make a purchase.

I'm 8 days into my first ever PCT and this loss of libido is starting to freak me out. In 12 years of marriage I have never passed on sex until this week.

i find that when i take 800MG a day my erections are harder than every other bone in my body

 

[dronkey]

I ran Mass GH By OL second run of it, first run was killer and recovered perfectly. I ran Arimacare Pro during cycle to keep prolactin down. and a few natty t boosters to combat any lethargy and my entire cycle was on point. Thats was my first cycle this cycle no side besides the first week i started I had some ichy nips id attribute to prolactin because i hadnt got my arimare pro in yet, but that was only about 5-6 days and hopped on arimacare with no problems. Erections/balls stayed pretty well during entire cycle. My PCT is Sup3r PCT and Rebirth from BLR with nolvadex 20/20/10/10 im on week 2 of PCT and have some libido issues. I got pre cycle bloods everything was good, waiting till post PCT for new bloods, think i should go sooner?

I took a 3 month break besides these 2 cycles as my Mass GH cycle was 4 weeks and pct was 4 weeks so i did time on cycle+PCT and then added an extra month for safe keeping.

Why only 4 weeks? Good move... I see everyone else running lgd for 8 weeks but after 4 weeks on Mass GH plus dermacrine/epiandro my dick stopped working entirely so I came off and started pct a couple days ago.

My first cycle was about 3.5 weeks and I came off when I started getting weaker boners and brutal lethargy. This 2nd cycle I pushed through the weak boners while the epiandro/dermacrine covered up the lethargy and at 4 weeks I was totally impotent. I took ar1macare both times so I don't think it was a prolactin issue. I think I'm actually shut down. I wasn't planning on shutdown, just suppression so I only have torem on hand instead of clomid/nolva.

I also took a 3 month break in between cycles. What's going on with this mass gh that we can't run it for more than 4 weeks? Maybe I have naturally low T. I really don't know what's going on. yates84 any ideas?

In my mid 20s, I'm usually good for 3-4 rounds in a day. Something is definitely wrong if I can't get it up at all... And when I try my hardest, it's soft as cotton.

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

Why only 4 weeks? Good move... I see everyone else running lgd for 8 weeks but after 4 weeks on Mass GH plus dermacrine/epiandro my dick stopped working entirely so I came off and started pct a couple days ago.

My first cycle was about 3.5 weeks and I came off when I started getting weaker boners and brutal lethargy. This 2nd cycle I pushed through the weak boners while the epiandro/dermacrine covered up the lethargy and at 4 weeks I was totally impotent. I took ar1macare both times so I don't think it was a prolactin issue. I think I'm actually shut down. I wasn't planning on shutdown, just suppression so I only have torem on hand instead of clomid/nolva.

I also took a 3 month break in between cycles. What's going on with this mass gh that we can't run it for more than 4 weeks? Maybe I have naturally low T. I really don't know what's going on. yates84 any ideas?

In my mid 20s, I'm usually good for 3-4 rounds in a day. Something is definitely wrong if I can't get it up at all... And when I try my hardest, it's soft as cotton.

My first run i didnt get any sides at all my PCT was perfect. Don't think it's mass GH I think it's the fact hat you used Epiandro and dermacrine AND LGD when LGD alone is KNOWN to be VERY suppressive, and you didnt plan for shut down????? Regardless of naturally low T you're stacking 3 different hormonal supplements.. andthe lethargy of Mass GH is nowhere near as bad to require both EPI and dermacrine, I used Testruction by EvoMuse and experienced no lethargy at all. I feel the toll of 3 different hormonal products despite their synergistic effects is what caused it. The fact that you didnt expect shut down WITH 3 DIFFERENT NON-NATTY HORMONALS for only your second cycle? That's kind of oblivious if you ask me. Also i googled around and Nolva is known to cause libido issues while running it but after supplementing it youre substantially better off than had you not used it because itd take substantially longer to recover. I feel that you taking 3 non natty hormonals for only your second cycle is irresponsible. Despite whatever anecdotal evidence you find on here saying otherwise that anecdotal evidence clearly isnt relevant in your case as you're experiencing issues others may not have. Also, not having Nolva on hand JUST IN CASE wasnt a good move either. ALWAYS make sure you have your basis covered. Especially in your case with multiple compounds that are hormonal.. You said you ran a cycle before and came back to homeostasis after PCT. SO in my opinion i feel as though you didnt properly assess the potential sides that MOST USERS WHO USE THINGS EXPERIENCE. With a drug that messes with hormones comes good and bad, you have to acknowledge and BE PREPARED for both. Run you PCT for full length DO NOT JUMP BACK INTO CYCLE ONCE ERECTIONS COME BACK. Take a longer break and run a less vigorous cycle if you do decide to cycle again.

 

[dronkey]

My first run i didnt get any sides at all my PCT was perfect. Don't think it's mass GH I think it's the fact hat you used Epiandro and dermacrine AND LGD when LGD alone is KNOWN to be VERY suppressive, and you didnt plan for shut down????? Regardless of naturally low T you're stacking 3 different hormonal supplements.. andthe lethargy of Mass GH is nowhere near as bad to require both EPI and dermacrine, I used Testruction by EvoMuse and experienced no lethargy at all. I feel the toll of 3 different hormonal products despite their synergistic effects is what caused it. The fact that you didnt expect shut down WITH 3 DIFFERENT NON-NATTY HORMONALS for only your second cycle? That's kind of oblivious if you ask me. Also i googled around and Nolva is known to cause libido issues while running it but after supplementing it youre substantially better off than had you not used it because itd take substantially longer to recover. I feel that you taking 3 non natty hormonals for only your second cycle is irresponsible. Despite whatever anecdotal evidence you find on here saying otherwise that anecdotal evidence clearly isnt relevant in your case as you're experiencing issues others may not have. Also, not having Nolva on hand JUST IN CASE wasnt a good move either. ALWAYS make sure you have your basis covered. Especially in your case with multiple compounds that are hormonal.. You said you ran a cycle before and came back to homeostasis after PCT. SO in my opinion i feel as though you didnt properly assess the potential sides that MOST USERS WHO USE THINGS EXPERIENCE. With a drug that messes with hormones comes good and bad, you have to acknowledge and BE PREPARED for both. Run you PCT for full length DO NOT JUMP BACK INTO CYCLE ONCE ERECTIONS COME BACK. Take a longer break and run a less vigorous cycle if you do decide to cycle again.

It's my understanding that dermacrine is just topical DHEA and basically worthless for anything other than increasing your circulating DHEA, and epiandro also seems like a pretty light compound - so no, I didn't expect full shut down. Dermacrine/epiandro alone wouldn't shut you down.

Obviously I had a serm on hand (torem) for HPTA restart in worst case scenario. All I'm saying is that the added DHEA supps didn't cause added suppression at 3-3.5 weeks than my first cycle without them at 3-3.5 weeks.

I'm going to run Torem most likely at 90/60/30 with DAA and then take 6-8 weeks off before going into another cycle of either Osta + dermacrine (with arimistane) or LGD + 4 andro/epiandro...and I'll get some clomid and/or nolva + exem to have on hand before I start that next cycle.

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

Why only 4 weeks? Good move... I see everyone else running lgd for 8 weeks but after 4 weeks on Mass GH plus dermacrine/epiandro my dick stopped working entirely so I came off and started pct a couple days ago.

My first cycle was about 3.5 weeks and I came off when I started getting weaker boners and brutal lethargy. This 2nd cycle I pushed through the weak boners while the epiandro/dermacrine covered up the lethargy and at 4 weeks I was totally impotent. I took ar1macare both times so I don't think it was a prolactin issue. I think I'm actually shut down. I wasn't planning on shutdown, just suppression so I only have torem on hand instead of clomid/nolva.

I also took a 3 month break in between cycles. What's going on with this mass gh that we can't run it for more than 4 weeks? Maybe I have naturally low T. I really don't know what's going on. yates84 any ideas?

In my mid 20s, I'm usually good for 3-4 rounds in a day. Something is definitely wrong if I can't get it up at all... And when I try my hardest, it's soft as cotton.

Also if you feel that you have low T dont just use nolva/clomid for PCT use some 3/4divanil 5G maca 800MG LJ100 or, you can go with OL's Testify Pro the profile is heavenly for your libido. You can also run Myokem's test booster that has good feed back. Or if you decide to look around for yourself here's what i recommend. LJ 100:1 or 200:1 and try take 600-800MG daily until you feel your balls filling. 5G maca daily. Horny Goat Weed. Anacyclus Pyrethrum. Some Rhodiola and Ashwaganda for adrenal support. You could do Tribx90 aswell. Definitely look into natty t-boosters as they can REALLY help. My first PCT of mass GH was just Sup3r PCT and Rebirth by BLR with Prolactrone and Exotherm and DSU and recovered entirely. But since this is my second cycle went with a serm as protection.

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

It's my understanding that dermacrine is just topical DHEA and basically worthless for anything other than increasing your circulating DHEA, and epiandro also seems like a pretty light compound - so no, I didn't expect full shut down. Dermacrine/epiandro alone wouldn't shut you down.

Obviously I had a serm on hand (torem) for HPTA restart in worst case scenario. All I'm saying is that the added DHEA supps didn't cause added suppression at 3-3.5 weeks than my first cycle without them at 3-3.5 weeks.

I'm going to run Torem most likely at 90/60/30 with DAA and then take 6-8 weeks off before going into another cycle of either Osta + dermacrine (with arimistane) or LGD + 4 andro/epiandro...and I'll get some clomid and/or nolva + exem to have on hand before I start that next cycle.

DAA is nice but i've read a few studies that say it elevates Prolactin so be careful of that.

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

It's my understanding that dermacrine is just topical DHEA and basically worthless for anything other than increasing your circulating DHEA, and epiandro also seems like a pretty light compound - so no, I didn't expect full shut down. Dermacrine/epiandro alone wouldn't shut you down.

Obviously I had a serm on hand (torem) for HPTA restart in worst case scenario. All I'm saying is that the added DHEA supps didn't cause added suppression at 3-3.5 weeks than my first cycle without them at 3-3.5 weeks.

I'm going to run Torem most likely at 90/60/30 with DAA and then take 6-8 weeks off before going into another cycle of either Osta + dermacrine (with arimistane) or LGD + 4 andro/epiandro...and I'll get some clomid and/or nolva + exem to have on hand before I start that next cycle.

Dermacrine is very mildly suppressive not a lot most recommend and OTC test booster for a dermacrine cycle. Epiandro is indead suppressive and almost anyone would say you should run pct with a serm for it. LGD is known to be HEAVILY suppressive as it should be because the gains are quite great. So you have 1 compound that causes very small suppression and then epiandro which is known to be suppressive and most recommend and LGD which is VERY suppressive many posts will confirm this. C'mon, forget the dermacrine but Epiandro and LGD when LGD alone has caused full shut down for some unfortunate people?

 

[dronkey]

Dermacrine is very mildly suppressive not a lot most recommend and OTC test booster for a dermacrine cycle. Epiandro is indead suppressive and almost anyone would say you should run pct with a serm for it. LGD is known to be HEAVILY suppressive as it should be because the gains are quite great. So you have 1 compound that causes very small suppression and then epiandro which is known to be suppressive and most recommend and LGD which is VERY suppressive many posts will confirm this. C'mon, forget the dermacrine but Epiandro and LGD when LGD alone has caused full shut down for some unfortunate people?

I've read a lot of logs and I can't say I've ever seen one where someone has claimed full shutdown on LGD. You can go over to reddit and see thread after thread and recommendation after recommendation of people running LGD for 8 weeks at 5mg or 10mg without a PCT and without experiencing any suppression sides.

 

[warpyfunch]

I've read a lot of logs and I can't say I've ever seen one where someone has claimed full shutdown on LGD. You can go over to reddit and see thread after thread and recommendation after recommendation of people running LGD for 8 weeks at 5mg or 10mg without a PCT and without experiencing any suppression sides.

"Suppression" is not the same as "shut down." Also, whether or not you feel side effects is not conclusive evidence regarding suppression. You can feel fine and get bloodwork that shows you did not adequately recover. Lastly, a SERM pct helps you get your test back into production faster. You may recover just fine without it, but it will take significantly longer. The faster you get your production back to normal, the less chance you will lose your on cycle gains.

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

I've read a lot of logs and I can't say I've ever seen one where someone has claimed full shutdown on LGD. You can go over to reddit and see thread after thread and recommendation after recommendation of people running LGD for 8 weeks at 5mg or 10mg without a PCT and without experiencing any suppression sides.

Alright, take everything i've said with a grain of salt. I personally would rather run nolva and run a full pct 3-4months off from cycle rather than gain 5 extra pounds of muscle from completing a cycle and have the erection/libido problems you've stated. But you seem to be okay with it and thats your deicison. Just next time dont say "what's with mass GH that it cant be run longer than 4 weeks"

 

[Misfits88]

Subbed...this is great. Yates you da man

 

[dronkey]

"Suppression" is not the same as "shut down." Also, whether or not you feel side effects is not conclusive evidence regarding suppression. You can feel fine and get bloodwork that shows you did not adequately recover. Lastly, a SERM pct helps you get your test back into production faster. You may recover just fine without it, but it will take significantly longer. The faster you get your production back to normal, the less chance you will lose your on cycle gains.

I'm with you in thinking these people are clearly getting suppressed and just not experiencing the sides. I'm just a little floored that some people are running it and feeling nothing negative while I'm over here with a broken dick after 4 weeks. Obviously I agree that there needs to be serm pct for sarms as they are very clearly suppressive.

 

[dronkey]

Alright, take everything i've said with a grain of salt. I personally would rather run nolva and run a full pct 3-4months off from cycle rather than gain 5 extra pounds of muscle from completing a cycle and have the erection/libido problems you've stated. But you seem to be okay with it and thats your deicison. Just next time dont say "what's with mass GH that it cant be run longer than 4 weeks"

Clearly I expected suppression, hence the dermacrine and epiandro to deal with the suppression effects and serm for pct. I didn't expect full shutdown in 4 weeks.

 

[yates84]

Clearly I expected suppression, hence the dermacrine and epiandro to deal with the suppression effects and serm for pct. I didn't expect full shutdown in 4 weeks.

We all react differently to different compounds. Each individual will also have a wide variation of low testosterone symptoms. Some recover very quick with little to no sides and some people get floored like you have. That's why I always tell people to be prepared for every situation before they start a cycle. I hope you can get on the road to recovery now.

 

[All Creation]

I'm going to take getting mistaken for yates as the most extreme of compliments. :biggthumpup:

Totally my bad! I could have sworn I saw Yates image on that post before I started reading, haha.

Thanks, Warpy!

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

Clearly I expected suppression, hence the dermacrine and epiandro to deal with the suppression effects and serm for pct. I didn't expect full shutdown in 4 weeks.

How would dermacrine and epiandro help suppression when they themselves are suppressive? Or are you saying the fact that the test conversion of the DHEA would help erections? Epi-andro doesnt convert to test it converts to DHT so i dont see how that would be used as a test base for libido? Both LGD and Epi-andro and androgenic so your only real test base is is the TD DHEA and i dont see how that alone would be enough combat the effects of LGD+Epiandro on libido

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Also if you feel that you have low T dont just use nolva/clomid for PCT use some 3/4divanil 5G maca 800MG LJ100 or, you can go with OL's Testify Pro the profile is heavenly for your libido. You can also run Myokem's test booster that has good feed back. Or if you decide to look around for yourself here's what i recommend. LJ 100:1 or 200:1 and try take 600-800MG daily until you feel your balls filling. 5G maca daily. Horny Goat Weed. Anacyclus Pyrethrum. Some Rhodiola and Ashwaganda for adrenal support. You could do Tribx90 aswell. Definitely look into natty t-boosters as they can REALLY help. My first PCT of mass GH was just Sup3r PCT and Rebirth by BLR with Prolactrone and Exotherm and DSU and recovered entirely. But since this is my second cycle went with a serm as protection.

The Rx/RC SERMs will raise your Testosterone to the top of the physiological range - 900, 1000, 1100 ng/dl (and the corresponding DHT conversion via 5-alpha Reductase) - libido should be fine. I guess if it isn't for some strange reason, you can try some of that stuff you mentioned - but man, what is that, a couple hundred bucks of libido supps? Also, regarding stuff like 3,4 Divanil and SHBG during PCT - SHBG also binds Estrogen, something that I want to happen during PCT.

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

The Rx/RC SERMs will raise your Testosterone to the top of the physiological range - 900, 1000, 1100 ng/dl (and the corresponding DHT conversion via 5-alpha Reductase) - libido should be fine. I guess if it isn't for some strange reason, you can try some of that stuff you mentioned - but man, what is that, a couple hundred bucks of libido supps? Also, regarding stuff like 3,4 Divanil and SHBG during PCT - SHBG also binds Estrogen, something that I want to happen during PCT.

Well I do admit i tend to go over board after i run a cycle, but id rather have everything working and a speedy recovery then discontinue everything instead of saving some money and having some potentially lasting effects.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

How would dermacrine and epiandro help suppression when they themselves are suppressive? Or are you saying the fact that the test conversion of the DHEA would help erections? Epi-andro doesnt convert to test it converts to DHT so i dont see how that would be used as a test base for libido? Both LGD and Epi-andro and androgenic so your only real test base is is the TD DHEA and i dont see how that alone would be enough combat the effects of LGD+Epiandro on libido

DHT is probably more responsible for "hornyness" than Test. The best "Bases" hit both the T and DHT pathways like 4-AD & EpiAndro together, IMO. He was using the Dermacrine (DHEA/Preg) and EpiAndro (DHT) to provide the "feeling good" after his HPTA was suppressed.

 

[dronkey]

DHT is probably more responsible for "hornyness" than Test. The best "Bases" hit both the T and DHT pathways like 4-AD & EpiAndro together, IMO. He was using the Dermacrine (DHEA/Preg) and EpiAndro (DHT) to provide the "feeling good" after his HPTA was suppressed.

Exactly - thank you. I didn't run 4andro because I was worried about the potential aromatization, though if I could go back and do it again I'd throw away the dermacrine and run 4andro/epiandro as a base with either a lower dose of lgd without the mk677(4 over 8) or osta.

On the upside, things are starting to turn in the right direction erection-wise.

I'm trying to decide what oral stack I should do for my next cycle after I've taken some time to recover (6-8 weeks) out of the following:
Osta (15-20mg?)
Lgd (4mg)
Lgd + mk 677 (4mg/10mg --- probably not going to ever run this one for more than 3 weeks in the future)
Dermacrine
4 andro (300mg? non enhanced)
Epiandro (450mg cyclodextrin)
Dermacrine

Staying on topic with PCT though, it seems as if the torem is working nicely - I think I'll continue it at 120 for another couple of days and then go down to 60/30 for a week each. Probably going to drop the ar1macare to allow some estro production.

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

Exactly - thank you. I didn't run 4andro because I was worried about the potential aromatization, though if I could go back and do it again I'd throw away the dermacrine and run 4andro/epiandro as a base with either a lower dose of lgd without the mk677(4 over 8) or osta.

On the upside, things are starting to turn in the right direction erection-wise.

I'm trying to decide what oral stack I should do for my next cycle after I've taken some time to recover (6-8 weeks) out of the following:
Osta (15-20mg?)
Lgd (4mg)
Lgd + mk 677 (4mg/10mg --- probably not going to ever run this one for more than 3 weeks in the future)
Dermacrine
4 andro (300mg? non enhanced)
Epiandro (450mg cyclodextrin)
Dermacrine

Staying on topic with PCT though, it seems as if the torem is working nicely - I think I'll continue it at 120 for another couple of days and then go down to 60/30 for a week each. Probably going to drop the ar1macare to allow some estro production.

Osta raised my E2 quite a bit and made my nips itch at 20 mg but i had pubertal gyno as a teenager thankfully being 23 its gone but Osta Aggravates it.
Depends though if youre looking for a recomp I'd go with epiandro LGD and 4 andro with an AI of your choice, thatd be pretty killer cycle to run for 5-6 weeks,also i feel if you're gonna do LGD without the MK i feel like 8MG is the sweet spot you wont get any of the bloat or hunger from MK and some people have reported libido with MK so it could be your body doesnt react to it right

 

[warpyfunch]

Osta raised my E2 quite a bit and made my nips itch at 20 mg but i had pubertal gyno as a teenager thankfully being 23 its gone but Osta Aggravates it.

I have not experienced any estrogen issues while on ostarine, but I have heard others mention it quite a few times. Does anyone have a guess as to why ostarine would raise estro at all, given that it's supposed to be a non-aromatizing compound?

 

[yates84]

I have not experienced any estrogen issues while on ostarine, but I have heard others mention it quite a few times. Does anyone have a guess as to why ostarine would raise estro at all, given that it's supposed to be a non-aromatizing compound?

It occupies the receptors so not as much testosterone can bind and is left to freely float around and interact with aromatase. Natty test is responsible for the increase in estrogen.