BCAA timing...

[Gutterpump]

There's a lot of people who should be reading this thread. So many people flavor their water intake with BCAAs, but it looks like this is a huge no for endurance and protein synthesis reasons. What's sucks even more for me is that on a cut, my water/BCAA intake usually goes real high. For all these years, I was doing more harm than good (insulin spike, ammonia buildup, decreased protein synthesis, decreased dopamine, etc).

 

[The Solution]

Don't hold your breathe. He has been alluding to that paper for YEARS now. I recently called him out directly on it and he responded with the most bullsht response possible.

Well he is holding his word at the start of the new year. So we will just sit back and see.
CL has been talking about venture bars for almost a year and they keep pushing them back.

 

[The Solution]

There's a lot of people who should be reading this thread. So many people flavor their water intake with BCAAs, but it looks like this is a huge no for endurance and protein synthesis reasons. What's sucks even more for me is that on a cut, my water/BCAA intake usually goes real high. For all these years, I was doing more harm than good (insulin spike, ammonia buildup, decreased protein synthesis, decreased dopamine, etc).

Most consumers are uneducated on supplements.
Because a guy at GNC says X or Y they believe it
Open a muscle and fitness magazine and see a pro take 12 things so they have to follow suit.
Sometimes doing a little research goes a long way.

 

[JudoJosh]

There's a lot of people who should be reading this thread. So many people flavor their water intake with BCAAs, but it looks like this is a huge no for endurance and protein synthesis reasons. What's sucks even more for me is that on a cut, my water/BCAA intake usually goes real high. For all these years, I was doing more harm than good (insulin spike, ammonia buildup, decreased protein synthesis, decreased seratonin, etc).

Not necessarily.

The paper referenced in Adels article is limited (strictly correlational with no mechanistic work plus done with murine model)

If you are struggling to lose weight and have been doing the BCAA thing and earn a drop it and see what happens, by all means do that. But if you are making progress fine with it, then there really is no reason to change yet.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

BCAA's make companies a mint in profits, so always keep that in mind. IMO, to make it simple, if you eat "Bro'ish" at least every 4-5 hours, you don't need BCAA's at all. That food/whey-casein takes a long a$$ time to digest/make it through the system and complete protein sources break down into Amino Acids, of which, are Leucine, Iso-Luecine, and Valine. Like almost everyone has said Fasted or "Two-a-days" are about the only time I "might" consider it - but I ain't into either of those.

 

[JudoJosh]

BCAA's make companies a mint in profits, so always keep that in mind.

1) possibly true but largely an assumption unless you are privy to the companies financials or at the very least the cost of the product, the cost of the creation of the product and the related marketing and selling cost)

2) completely irrelevant if discussing the validity of said product

IMO, to make it simple, if you eat "Bro'ish" at least every 4-5 hours, you don't need BCAA's at all.

this is correct only if you assume the ONLY reason to supplement with BCAAs is to meet protein needs, which is rather silly making this statement kind of random to even bring up.

That food/whey-casein takes a long a$$ time to digest/make it through the system

those actually each of different digestion times

and complete protein sources break down into Amino Acids, of which, are Leucine, Iso-Luecine, and Valine.

they are MANY more aminos that protein breaks down into besides the BCAAs.

Like almost everyone has said Fasted or "Two-a-days" are about the only time I "might" consider it - but I ain't into either of those.

there are other reasons where BCAA supplementation may be beneficial.

 

[Gutterpump]

Like almost everyone has said Fasted or "Two-a-days" are about the only time I "might" consider it - but I ain't into either of those.

You may change your mind if you taste MAN's lineup of BCAA's. Their Dorks (Nerds) flavor tastes just like the Nerds candy (amazing), and their Sour Batch Kids taste just like Sour Patch Kids. My favorite candies as a kid LOL... This stuff saves me on a cut when I've lowered carbs because it satisfies my sweet tooth.

 

[LovingtoLift]

So everyone if you eat a diet consisting of chicken, eggs, and fish, you are getting plenty of BCAA's such as Leucine in your system and you can pretty much not worry about BCAA supplementation unless you work out fasted in the mornings.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

1) possibly true, etc....

Right, supp companies make no profits. Save the Violin Mike Matthews owns Legion Supplements and says most pre-workouts cost $5 a tub.

My point about the food within 4-5 hours, is that you already have BCAAs in you, why drink more than you need.

I know both protein types release at different rates, but thanks - it bolsters the "no need for aminos" argument.

Uh, "break down into Amino Acids..." = all of them in the protein... "of which" = INCLUDING or TO INCLUDE the BCAAs.

Your last could be true if you take eating protein in a certain time period out of the equation. Whole protein food = BCAAs.

 

[Gutterpump]

So everyone if you eat a diet consisting of chicken, eggs, and fish, you are getting plenty of BCAA's such as Leucine in your system and you can pretty much not worry about BCAA supplementation unless you work out fasted in the mornings.

Nope, you can eat lots of steak too! lol

 

[Gutterpump]

For endurance, I think I'll stick to the basics now:

ie: For endurance, do more cardio/HIIT etc..

But for very basic supps:
- Cordyceps (for increase VO2)
- electrolytes
- carbs

I don't bother with 'pump' compounds like arginine, citruline, etc. I keep my BP at a very nice level, so I have no need for these. I gave up on preworkouts about 3yrs after I started training. They aren't worth it, in my eyes.

 

[LovingtoLift]

Nope, you can eat lots of steak too! lol

Oh yeah got that covered lol!

 

[DonnieM]

But primarily leucin (2,5+ grams) still stimulate muscle protein synthesis, right? But "pulsing" is needed, every two-three hours or so?

 

[The Solution]

BCAA's make companies a mint in profits, so always keep that in mind. IMO, to make it simple, if you eat "Bro'ish" at least every 4-5 hours, you don't need BCAA's at all. That food/whey-casein takes a long a$$ time to digest/make it through the system and complete protein sources break down into Amino Acids, of which, are Leucine, Iso-Luecine, and Valine. Like almost everyone has said Fasted or "Two-a-days" are about the only time I "might" consider it - but I ain't into either of those.

Even alan aragon has stated that numerous times.

i did an interview with him and this was his response:

"Alan Aragon
Alan Aragon’s thoughts are that BCAA’s are not necessary unless you are consuming enough BCAA’s through whole food protein (which he is in agreement with Martin). Alan continued to preach in his roundtable discussion that many individual’s are not aware of how many BCAA’s they get in real foods especially animal proteins (chicken, beef, fish etc.). Given an individual is meeting 1-1.5g of protein per day and getting adequate BCAA’s he has seen no additional research that dosing more BCAA’s or BCAA supplements are necessary given that individual has adequate pre/post workout nutrition to fuel their body for anabolism after breaking down their bodies from a workout. Even using BCAA’s himself and on his clients he has tried adjusting those clients to a higher protein intake and has seen visual evidence of improved body composition and performance
"

and his nutrient timing revisited lecture:

Invalid Link Removed

When are Carbs and Protein VERY Important Post-workout?

Protein:
-Resistance Training in a fasted state (no meal consumed at least 3-4 hours prior)

When are Carbs and Protein of lesser importance Post-workout?

Protein:
- Training after a meal composed of 20-40g Protein at least 1-2 hours prior to a workout in a fed state.

Overall Cliffs:

- Nutrient Timing can be beneficial but window of opportunity is not as big as believed
- Provided protein rich meal 3-4 hours prior to training, there is no stress about immediate post-workout protein supplement or meal
- Consume .4-.5g/kg of LBM in a pre/post workout exercise window spaced 4-6 hours depending on meal size.

 

[Big Papi]

Do you see people rave over increased capacity eating fish intra-workout instead of sipping on BCAA's? Most likely not.
Do you see people eating protein bars, chicken, or steak intra-workout and raving over how they see increased work capacity? Most likely not.
People do not drink whey protein intra-workout for a reason its not enhancing endurnace, they drink it to help reach protein intake in the 24 hour period.
Since your training fed most chances are the need for BCAA are minimal

Overall Cliffs:

- Nutrient Timing can be beneficial but window of opportunity is not as big as believed
- Provided protein rich meal 3-4 hours prior to training, there is no stress about immediate post-workout protein supplement or meal
- Consume .4-.5g/kg of LBM in a pre/post workout exercise window spaced 4-6 hours depending on meal size.

Bold is a reason why the need for BCAA's intra when you are already fed wont merit you much. again its protein in free form. if your meeting protein intake its not really that beneficial

Invalid Link Removed

Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed

aminos will help with endurance via anapleurtic pathways.

 

[Big Papi]

Exactly.

The issue here is you are manipulating the statement.

If the question is, is BCAAs beneficial to be taken with a meal.. the answer is, it depends. Not an unequivocal no.

There has been a few whey papers demonstrating this quite well.

Now if the question is (which it wasn't BTW) is BCAA supplementation beneficial on top of a diet with adequate protein, the answer is again.. it depends. What is the reason for the supplementation? If the thought is to increase MPS and thus increase gains.. then the answer is no. It will not help. But if the answer is to increase performance via decreased fatigue, then the answer is possibly. Then there is also the timing (both nutrient and supplement) to take into consideration.

decreases in cns [tryp] with a concominant decrease in cns [tyr] plus an increase in ammonia... where's the net gain? i'd say it is probably a wash

 

[Gutterpump]

Based on the logic in this thread, would it then be counter-productive to eat casein because having a trickling amount of steady aminos will not allow for much of a protein refractory period?

Casein takes somewhere in the neighborhood of ~6hrs to digest. People tend to eat at least every 6hrs.

 

[The Solution]

Based on the logic in this thread, would it then be counter-productive to eat casein because having a trickling amount of steady aminos will not allow for much of a protein refractory period?

Casein takes somewhere in the neighborhood of ~6hrs to digest. People tend to eat at least every 6hrs.

Casein is no where necessary in the first place bud. Marketing at its finest. If you meet protein intake in the 24 hour period having 25g of chicken or 25g of protein from casein before bed will make 0 difference. Same could be said with Steak, Tuna, Fish etc. Do what works best for you. Having a fat soruce or veggie with your last meal will help prolong digestion as well.

If you are so scared that you cant have casein, why not invest in milk, yogurt, cottage cheese etc all have casein. and most whey proteins have a blend of

 

[JudoJosh]

decreases in cns [tryp] with a concominant decrease in cns [tyr] plus an increase in ammonia... where's the net gain? i'd say it is probably a wash

Reduced tryptophan = reduced 5-HT synthesis = delayed fatigue, no?

Reference for thought process

Invalid Link Removed

 

[Gutterpump]

Casein is no where necessary in the first place bud. Marketing at its finest. If you meet protein intake in the 24 hour period having 25g of chicken or 25g of protein from casein before bed will make 0 difference. Same could be said with Steak, Tuna, Fish etc. Do what works best for you. Having a fat soruce or veggie with your last meal will help prolong digestion as well.

If you are so scared that you cant have casein, why not invest in milk, yogurt, cottage cheese etc all have casein. and most whey proteins have a blend of

I tend to stay away from casein because it can cause nutrient deficiencies. Too much calcium will block essential nutrients taken along side it (it can very quickly create a magnesium deficiency for example). I rarely have casein. Was just a general question because I know people love their casein blends, etc. I really only use casein to bake with because of it's density, and sometimes at night. But now I'm questioning all slow-releasing sources of protein because of this thread.

 

[The Solution]

Not necessary if you are meeting protein intake in the 24 hour period buddy. Use your whey when you need to help "Supplement' your intake you can not get from whole foods.

 

[Gutterpump]

Not necessary if you are meeting protein intake in the 24 hour period buddy. Use your whey when you need to help "Supplement' your intake you can not get from whole foods.

But using the same logic, wouldn't steak and such also not be very optimal? Takes a very long time to digest, causing a steady stream of aminos. Using this logic, I should stay away from all meat/dairy and just take hydro-whey with my meals.. This would maximize the protein refractory period.

 

[The Solution]

But using the same logic, wouldn't steak and such also not be very optimal? Takes a very long time to digest, causing a steady stream of aminos. Using this logic, I should stay away from all meat and just take hydro-whey with my meals.. This would maximize the protein refractory period between meals.

Are you being serious with your statement right now or are you brainwashed by ON in magazines
if this was the case the bodybuilders have been doing it wrong since the 80's where got almost all their intake from whole foods.
Look at a lot of modern bodybuilders today, do you see them fretting eating steak, chicken, fish or other whole food sources for the majority of their meals? no.. They do it because its the most optimal thing to do. That is why these are called "SUPPLEMENTS" they are made to "Supplement" our diet and training. Most whey or casein products are very heavily processed, that would not make them the most ideal thing to make the majority of our protein from or use often unless we cannot get proper whole foods.. If you ate 3oz of steak do you think it would take upward to 6 hours to digest? Most likely not. The size or portion is a key factor of digestion rates. Someone who eats 10oz of beef or steak will take longer than 3oz. The point is at the end of the day protein intake and meeting that. Most of your sources from whole foods.

Steak is fine to eat at any meal of the day unless you have some sort of digestion problems with that source then avoid it. Besides that eat steak when you wise as long as your using it to meet protein/macros for the given day or period. You are honestly overthinking so much stuff right now its scary that you think you need to take hydrowhey with meals. You dont need to add any protein source on top of a meal unless you fail to reach proper protein levels in the 24 hour period or cannot reach enough lecuine at a given meal. Most chances if you eat a meal or have a protein shake you are already getting an adequate amount.

 

[Gutterpump]

Brainwashed? I don't read magazines, I'm applying the logic from this thread and making a point/asking a question.

You stated that a steady stream of aminos is bad.

Of course I won't stop eating whole foods.

 

[The Solution]

Brainwashed? I don't read magazines, I'm applying the logic from this thread and making a point/asking a question.

You stated that a steady stream of aminos is bad.

Of course I won't stop eating whole foods.

A steady stream of sipping on BCAA's all day (which is not optimal) does not = eating whole foods
Comparing apples to oranges.
That also does not mean drinking Hydrowhey with every single meal either which is far from optimal. You are confusing the writing and logic here bud.


Sipping BCAA's would be like eating every 10 minutes, do you do that? Do you find that logical? most likely not. Hence why meals are spaced apart or if you dose a BCAA product between meals (4-6 hours apart) you take it as a bolus

 

[Gutterpump]

I was making an extreme example, but yes, if casein or steak is providing a steady stream of aminos to your bloodstream for even 4 hours, and you eat every 4 hours, it is almost the same as having BCAAs between meals, except that you are getting a larger assortment of aminos with casein/meat.

 

[Gutterpump]

I don't mean to be a pain. It's just something that popped into my head over the weekend

 

[rascal14]

What you're saying makes sense to me.. If protein is made up of Aminos and you eat any type of slow digesting protein it would be the exact same as sipping on amino acids for that period of time would it not?

Unless it has something to do with the food already being in your stomach vs the consistent flow of Aminos to the stomach.

 

[Gutterpump]

Yup, it's tripping me up a bit. Could have something to do with the ratio within the aminos being consumed. BCAAs vs EAA's or something

 

[The Solution]

What you're saying makes sense to me.. If protein is made up of Aminos and you eat any type of slow digesting protein it would be the exact same as sipping on amino acids for that period of time would it not?

Unless it has something to do with the food already being in your stomach vs the consistent flow of Aminos to the stomach.

Amino's in free form = instantly digested
Whey, whole foods, steak = not instantly digested
Sipping Aminos all day would be the equivilent of eating every time you take a sip of your amino beverage
Are you eating every 10-15 minutes? Most likely not. you are eating every 3-4-5 hours

Your comparing apples to oranges.

it goes back to the links i posted pages back :

Invalid Link Removed

Invalid Link Removed


^^^^

 

[Gutterpump]

Sipping Aminos all day would be the equivilent of eating every time you take a sip of your amino beverage
Are you eating every 10-15 minutes?

I still don't think you're getting what we are saying.

When you eat a steak, it's constantly getting digested over that ~4 hour period and offering up a STEADY stream of aminos. Is your body getting aminos every 10min this way? YUP. Why would you ask if we would eat every 10min? When you eat casein/meat, it provides your bloodstream with aminos MORE than every 10min over the long period it takes to digest. It's very simple logic!

Does meat get instantly digested? No, but it will sure be CONSTANTLY providing aminos more than every 10min. It will be steady, until it is finished being digested. You don't have to eat every 10min for this to happen! lol

 

[LovingtoLift]

BTW everyone, guess what? Eating ever 2-3 hours is a bunch of bull**** too. You do not need to eat every 2 ****ing hours. You eat when you are hungry bottom line. If you can eat 3 times per day and get all your macros in during that time, go for it. If you feel that eating every 2-3 hours gives you more energy and its easier to meet your macros that way, eat that way. Everyone is different .

Oh and BTW , when you are done with your workout you can wait till you get home to have a meal. You don't have to run to your locker and pound Whey. Its not going to ruin your gains as long as you are providing your body enough of what it needs throughout the day to recover and fuel your physique.

 

[Gutterpump]

Also, just to be straight...We are debating apples and oranges in terms of Protein Refractory periods. The above example doesn't allow for any refractory period, for either steak or bcaa's.

A steady stream of aminos = a steady stream of aminos. Both cases don't allow for any refractory period.

 

[rascal14]

BTW everyone, guess what? Eating ever 2-3 hours is a bunch of bull**** too. You do not need to eat every 2 ****ing hours. You eat when you are hungry bottom line. If you can eat 3 times per day and get all your macros in during that time, go for it. If you feel that eating every 2-3 hours gives you more energy and its easier to meet your macros that way, eat that way. Everyone is different .

Oh and BTW , when you are done with your workout you can wait till you get home to have a meal. You don't have to run to your locker and pound Whey. Its not going to ruin your gains as long as you are providing your body enough of what it needs throughout the day to recover and fuel your physique.

This has already been established lol

 

[Gutterpump]

Invalid Link Removed

In dedication to this thread, I'm having a honey-pecan marinated steak for lunch! lol

 

[Gutterpump]

While sipping on BCAA's.....

 

[JudoJosh]

While sipping on BCAA's.....

Goodbye gains

 

[Big Papi]

Reduced tryptophan = reduced 5-HT synthesis = delayed fatigue, no?

Reference for thought process

Invalid Link Removed

yea, definitely makes sense, but you're also decreasing dopamine by way of decreased cns uptake while also increasing ammonia production (oxidative byproduct) so is there a true net benefit? i personally believe we really over think this stuff.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Casein is no where necessary in the first place...

I'm pretty much with you on most of this, but I just looked up "What's in Human Breast Milk?" and it's 60% Whey and 40% Casein. Since I think nature knows best, I believe having a Whey/Casein blend (even if from a Cow) is best (but not absolutely essential).

 

[ForceOfNature]

Don't drink constantly

You will find the most use for free form BCAAs during fasted periods between meals or peri-workout

There is a refractory period for protein synthesis, save your money and get the same results with the above dosing.

How much dietary protein are you consuming? Can be a factor.

Meal Frequency?

This

 

[The Solution]

I'm pretty much with you on most of this, but I just looked up "What's in Human Breast Milk?" and it's 60% Whey and 40% Casein. Since I think nature knows best, I believe having a Whey/Casein blend (even if from a Cow) is best (but not absolutely essential).

If you meet protein intake in the 24 hour period if you get 25g of protein from casein or 25g of protein from steak, chicken, eggs the difference would be minimal.

 

[Big Papi]

If you meet protein intake in the 24 hour period if you get 25g of protein from casein or 25g of protein from steak, chicken, eggs the difference would be minimal.

i'm with you as far as keeping things simple (supp forum bros definitely over supplement and make this weight lifting thing out to be rocket science when it's really not- i am guilty of this, too), but i'm not entirely sold on this idea. things like the thermic effect of certain foods can't be totally ignored. exactly how much this matters is debatable, but decades of anecdotal feedback shouldn't be dismissed because just because there isn't a rct demonstrating protein = protein, especially in the pre-contest/peak week setting.

 

[The Solution]

i'm with you as far as keeping things simple (supp forum bros definitely over supplement and make this weight lifting thing out to be rocket science when it's really not- i am guilty of this, too), but i'm not entirely sold on this idea. things like the thermic effect of certain foods can't be totally ignored. exactly how much this matters is debatable, but decades of anecdotal feedback shouldn't be dismissed because just because there isn't a rct demonstrating protein = protein, especially in the pre-contest/peak week setting.

I am sure all those bodybuilders in the 80's and 90's who looked great were fretting not having a casein shake before going to bed and instead were eating steak or chicken. Dorian Yates must of been doing it wrong, same with Arnold.

 

[JudoJosh]

i'm with you as far as keeping things simple (supp forum bros definitely over supplement and make this weight lifting thing out to be rocket science when it's really not- i am guilty of this, too), but i'm not entirely sold on this idea. things like the thermic effect of certain foods can't be totally ignored. exactly how much this matters is debatable, but decades of anecdotal feedback shouldn't be dismissed because just because there isn't a rct demonstrating protein = protein, especially in the pre-contest/peak week setting.

No to mention the soy papers that directly show source of protein absolutely does have an impact

 

[JudoJosh]

I am sure all those bodybuilders in the 80's and 90's who looked great were fretting not having a casein shake before going to bed and instead were eating steak or chicken. Dorian Yates must of been doing it wrong, same with Arnold.

Strawman

 

[Big Papi]

Strawman

strong this

I am sure all those bodybuilders in the 80's and 90's who looked great were fretting not having a casein shake before going to bed and instead were eating steak or chicken. Dorian Yates must of been doing it wrong, same with Arnold.

why you always so sensitive?

 

[JudoJosh]

Invalid Link Removed

protein is protein thou, right?

 

[The Solution]

why you always so sensitive?

You do not even need casein in the first place or whey protein when you can eat enough protein alone from whole food. Thinking you need to have a "Slow Release" casein shake before bed is a myth because if you are meeting proper protein intake it wont make a difference in the grand scheme of things. Same could be said with needing a fast digesting isolate post-workout. How many times over the years did bodybuilders go home from a gym session and eat a whole food meal? Probably every year over the last few decades. Sure is protein easy to digest post-workout or easy to slam back? Sure. but 100% necessary probably a far stretch as diet will reign supreme.

What is protein? its a supplement. What do supplements do. They supplement our DIET. So if we eat enough protein (Steak for example) or have Steak before bed. is it going to matter if we had a shake instead? no. They are used for convenience if you cant get whole food.

Tell me why consumers or general gym goers need to get pushed supplements like casein when the difference is minimal in the grand scheme of things? The major reason

i'm with you as far as keeping things simple (supp forum bros definitely over supplement and make this weight lifting thing out to be rocket science when it's really not-

and you even admit your own guilt of over supplementing

i am guilty of this, too),.

let me re quote you here

 

[JudoJosh]

Invalid Link Removed

 

[Big Papi]

You do not even need casein in the first place or whey protein when you can eat enough protein alone from whole food. Thinking you need to have a "Slow Release" casein shake before bed is a myth because if you are meeting proper protein intake it wont make a difference in the grand scheme of things. Same could be said with needing a fast digesting isolate post-workout. How many times over the years did bodybuilders go home from a gym session and eat a whole food meal? Probably every year over the last few decades. Sure is protein easy to digest post-workout or easy to slam back? Sure. but 100% necessary probably a far stretch as diet will reign supreme.

What is protein? its a supplement. What do supplements do. They supplement our DIET. So if we eat enough protein (Steak for example) or have Steak before bed. is it going to matter if we had a shake instead? no. They are used for convenience if you cant get whole food.

Tell me why consumers or general gym goers need to get pushed supplements like casein when the difference is minimal in the grand scheme of things? The major reason



and you even admit your own guilt of over supplementing




let me re quote you here

Not sheriff srs