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The Official OL UK Cardar1ne Q&A

By the way, the insulin sensitizing effects of Cardarine, as well as it's ability to shift the body's prefered energy substrate heavily toward fat, makes it an excellent addition to Gharine.

So, I've been the guinea pig and found (as I assumed would be the case) that Cardarine does not work well for strength training. If I run it again it will be with training more optimized to take advantage of its unique characteristics.
 
For the remainder of this run--about another 3 weeks ((9 1/2 weeks total) I'm already down to 14 mg. day. I've also changed up my training to incorporate higher rep/duration sets, etc. More bodybuilding style training.

I'll drop my 3 x week 1 Hr. morning walks to 45 Min. walks, up my calories and especially carbs a bit (to around maintenance), and shift emphasis to building more muscle while loosing a little fat--a recomp, basically.

Fat loss on the Cardarine/Gharine stack, while not dramatic, has been consistent and noticible. I'm very pleased. I'll be switching out the GW and adding Epic Unleashed at the end of the GW cycle and continuing with a recom until I decide my body has had a sufficient break from dieting, at which point it's back down with the calories and carbs and back to fat loss oriented training.
 
crowbar46 said:
a) it does NOT work well for max effort type training; or even, I find, relatively fast paced straight sets. In fact, over time I became weaker at high effort sets (> 85-90%)

b) it DOES work well for longer duration/higher rep sets, high work density (e.g., supersets, antagonistic supersets, giant sets, etc.), conditioning/GPP work, circuits, barbell complexes, LISS, etc
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Given what the studies have suggested this is not at all surprising. PPARd receptors have most effect on (and expression in) slow twitch type l fibers, so much so that their agonism can lead to type ll-type l fiber conversion. This phenomena will only be further encouraged by certain types of training.

On top of this, AMPk activity is further going to be accentuated by slow twitch-focused stimulation.

Crudely, GW seems kind of like a forskolin-epicatechin hybrid, both in terms of maximising effects, benefits, and end-point results.
 
clown007 said:
Hey booneman77 for me, it took 4 weeks to see the positives. Before that I was experiencing the same stuff as you.
The hypoglycaemia and headaches happened for me at 21mg and was fixed thanks to playing with carbs and sodium (thanks to Hastur for the recommendation).
As of now (5weeks in) I am down 3% body fat.
I felt the same way as you about GW until it finally showed its effects.
I must say that for me I am not seeing the huge uptick in overall endurance that some are, recovery is good but could be the result of the LGD/Alpha Stano/ Dermacrine I am also running.
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What does your diet schedule look like (macros per meal? timing?)?
 
schizm said:
Curious, have you had success with any other PPAR agonists in the past?
Months ago I ran 3 bottles of GW back to back, minimal effects/results...but seem to echo what I've experiened from PPAR agonist supps in general...granted, I didn't have the most consistently clean diet, but still with GW being talked up so much thought some decent results would be had...
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Very much so. forskolin specifically is like gold for me.
 
crowbar46 said:
UPDATE:

1) If you guys aren't familar with it there is an excellent discussion of GW on a site called Invalid Link Removed . What's really interesting is the discussion after the article, which includes a lot of discussion by a PH.D. in biochemistry from the University of Chicago.

2) The article confirms many of the observations I've made of GW:

a) it does NOT work well for max effort type training; or even, I find, relatively fast paced straight sets. In fact, over time I became weaker at high effort sets (> 85-90%)

b) it DOES work well for longer duration/higher rep sets, high work density (e.g., supersets, antagonistic supersets, giant sets, etc.), conditioning/GPP work, circuits, barbell complexes, LISS, etc.

3) I honestly think the endurance aspect of GW is a bit overrated, unless your training is optimized to take advantage of it, and even then I don't think it's as dramatic for me as some have claimed.

4) One very important effect from GW is the insulin sensitizing. Over time, this can really assist in body composition shifts--more LBM. and less fat. This effect was VERY strong. In fact, at 21 mg. it was too strong! I had outright hypoglycemic episodes, mainly after training. This is what gives that hard muscle "perma pump" that I get from cardarine--I mean 24 Hrs. a day!

5) 21 mg. a day made me feel like ****! I have now backed it down to 14 mg. day and immediately feel better. bad in what way you ask? Well, several weeks into my cycle I started experiencing really sore achy muscles and joints--but mainly muscles. It was enough to make me take notice. Lo and behold, the PH.D. from the University of Chicago believes that Cardarine can, in high doses, induce rhabdomyolysis (a condition causing the rapid breakdown of muscle tissue)!

The PH.D. does believe GW has potential ergogenic uses, but advises to use it in much smaller doses with a more conservative cycle length.
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I'm quite familiar with rhabdo due to my chronically low carb intake. Sounds like anyone choosing to use GW should implement a higher carb diet. Which is exactly what I plan to do
 
GW is probably going to work best in a moderate to high fat environment; fats are the most important macronutrient as far as this compound is concerned.
 
Also, many are assuming GW to be most beneficial for cutting. Not necessarily so, it will likely be most effective in a hypercaloric environment.
 
booneman77 said:
What does your diet schedule look like (macros per meal? timing?)?
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I am going on 230g protein 125g carbs and 100g fats broken up throughout the day (4 meals evenly split)
 
clown007 said:
I am going on 230g protein 125g carbs and 100g fats broken up throughout the day (4 meals evenly split)
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And how many carbs were you doing before upping and feeling better effects? I'm currently ultra low most days (~25g or so)
 
booneman77 said:
And how many carbs were you doing before upping and feeling better effects? I'm currently ultra low most days (~25g or so)
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I was 75g-90g before and upped to 125g and I found a big difference.
At that low, I can only imagine how you must be feeling!
 
clown007 said:
I was 75g-90g before and upped to 125g and I found a big difference.
At that low, I can only imagine how you must be feeling!
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It's not like I'm truly hypo (dizzy, sick, etc) but by the latter part of the day I'm just completely dragging ass , pretty foggy, and have zero energy to do anything. Even taking some alphamine is only enough to keep me moving.

It's becoming a detriment as instead of aiding my running training for my upcoming half marathon I can barely muster up the energy to jog for a couple miles.

I'm going to see how I feel after next week (going on vacation where I'll have plenty of carbs and time to run in the mornings vs afternoons without a gym) and decide to keep it or stop.
 
booneman77 said:
It's not like I'm truly hypo (dizzy, sick, etc) but by the latter part of the day I'm just completely dragging ass , pretty foggy, and have zero energy to do anything. Even taking some alphamine is only enough to keep me moving.

It's becoming a detriment as instead of aiding my running training for my upcoming half marathon I can barely muster up the energy to jog for a couple miles.

I'm going to see how I feel after next week (going on vacation where I'll have plenty of carbs and time to run in the mornings vs afternoons without a gym) and decide to keep it or stop.
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You on anything else?
 
booneman77 said:
Nope. Everything else stopped a week before I started this
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Seems ppl are having very different results from GW. Some are experiencing quick gains in endurance... and others it takes some time, and then others nothing at all. I guess if after your trip and carb up you feel the same then it may not be worth it for you.
 
I agree that GW would work very well during a bodybuilding style mass phase in order to help keep body fat levels in check. However, as long as you have body fat to burn, I think carbs, ironically, are the more important macronutrient. Even during fat loss oriented training you need to increase carb intake over what it would usually be during such training; both because you can be benefit from a greater intake while on Cardarine, but also because you'll feel better and perform at a higher level in the gym, which wll translate into better results.
 
The PPARd receptors would seem to function as lipid metabolisers moreso than CHO or glucose. But, I dont disagree that CHO intake is important for athletic performance.

My intention was to draw attention to the crucial role fat intake plays in this scenario, as everyone tends to be CHO-focused. This compound was designed specifically for high-fat diets.
 
The Official OL UK Cardar1ne Q&A

NewAgeMayan said:
The PPARd receptors would seem to function as lipid metabolisers moreso than CHO or glucose. But, I dont disagree that CHO intake is important for athletic performance.

My intention was to draw attention to the crucial role fat intake plays in this scenario, as everyone tends to be CHO-focused. This compound was designed specifically for high-fat diets.
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Well fack, then I'll stay at 60g cho and up my fat if that's the case.. Win! More almond butter and beef!
 
NewAgeMayan said:
In this instance all I have been trying to do is be as faithful to the studies as possible. I obviously cannot make any assurances as to results.
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That's surprising....I thought with increased insulin sensitivity you'd want to smash some carbs. Maybe we should try a high carb high fat diet LOL. (Just kidding)
 
ma70 said:
That's surprising....I thought with increased insulin sensitivity you'd want to smash some carbs. Maybe we should try a high carb high fat diet LOL. (Just kidding)
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There will have to be some degree of personal knowledge and experimentation, of course; people respond differently to different macro ratios, and you want to balance optimum athletic performance, health, and fat loss/inhibition.

Id have to dig up the exact numbers, but I dont think the studies were suggesting by 'high-fat diet' eating less than 100gms CHO per day.

Again, fats are important with this compound, but we dont have to go from one extreme (smashing carbs) to the other (smashing fats).
 
NewAgeMayan said:
There will have to be some degree of personal knowledge and experimentation, of course; people respond differently to different macro ratios, and you want to balance optimum athletic performance, health, and fat loss/inhibition.

Id have to dig up the exact numbers, but I dont think the studies were suggesting by 'high-fat diet' eating less than 100gms CHO per day.

Again, fats are important with this compound, but we dont have to go from one extreme (smashing carbs) to the other (smashing fats).
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Currently I'm basically psmf most days outside of my 1-2 refeeds so the higher fat could be the help as well... might need to play with each higher fat anf low carb, and vice versa.
 
booneman77 said:
Currently I'm basically psmf most days outside of my 1-2 refeeds so the higher fat could be the help as well... might need to play with each higher fat anf low carb, and vice versa.
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I know you probably dont need me to point this out, but anyway...

Id be inclined to experiment as well, but this has pros and cons. Obviously making dietary changes during the cycle of a new compound murky's the water in terms of "did this modification actually bring about this effect?" Its tricky because there are acute responses to dietary changes, and responses which take longer to manifest. Also, experimentation can pretty much ruin a cycle (if you unfortunately just get things wrong, which can happen quite easily).

In saying that though, you want to find out which combination of factors works best for you.

Anyway, just out of interest, how do you normally run forskolin? As in kcal intake /week (above/below maintanence)...
 
NewAgeMayan said:
I know you probably dont need me to point this out, but anyway...

Id be inclined to experiment as well, but this has pros and cons. Obviously making dietary changes during the cycle of a new compound murky's the water in terms of "did this modification actually bring about this effect?" Its tricky because there are acute responses to dietary changes, and responses which take longer to manifest. Also, experimentation can pretty much ruin a cycle (if you unfortunately just get things wrong, which can happen quite easily).

In saying that though, you want to find out which combination of factors works best for you.

Anyway, just out of interest, how do you normally run forskolin? As in kcal intake /week (above/below maintanence)...
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And this is why I'm tempted to just stay where I'm at rather than keep reverse dieting
 
chedapalooza said:
And this is why I'm tempted to just stay where I'm at rather than keep reverse dieting
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It can be tricky, especially if we start overthinking things (Im guilty).

Many of the studies used subjects who were near the extreme end of the scale...obese...untrained...etc. The compound tended to cause dramatic changes in these subjects, for obvious reasons. Being that none of us are likely to be obese nor untrained, there will be a bit of a question mark over how long it might take for GW to perceptibaly exert its effects, and to what extent.
 
NewAgeMayan said:
I know you probably dont need me to point this out, but anyway...

Id be inclined to experiment as well, but this has pros and cons. Obviously making dietary changes during the cycle of a new compound murky's the water in terms of "did this modification actually bring about this effect?" Its tricky because there are acute responses to dietary changes, and responses which take longer to manifest. Also, experimentation can pretty much ruin a cycle (if you unfortunately just get things wrong, which can happen quite easily).

In saying that though, you want to find out which combination of factors works best for you.

Anyway, just out of interest, how do you normally run forskolin? As in kcal intake /week (above/below maintanence)...
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I've used forskolin in both hypo and hyper caloric environments and seen good results both ways. I usually just run 100mg straight through and either see minimal fat gain (bulking) or leaning (cutting).

My main concern with the cardarine currently is the negative impact it's having on my day to day running training. I ahve to be able to run 13+mi. in october and since starting my runs have gotten progressively shorter and shorter (can barely drag myself through 2 miles) due to the total lack of energy. After this next week I'll have the necessary comparison (low carb vs moderate) to make a decision strictly based on the day to day feel. Obviously one week will not support the long term fat loss or endurance, but I have more immediate concerns right now.
 
booneman77 said:
I've used forskolin in both hypo and hyper caloric environments and seen good results both ways. I usually just run 100mg straight through and either see minimal fat gain (bulking) or leaning (cutting).

My main concern with the cardarine currently is the negative impact it's having on my day to day running training. I ahve to be able to run 13+mi. in october and since starting my runs have gotten progressively shorter and shorter (can barely drag myself through 2 miles) due to the total lack of energy. After this next week I'll have the necessary comparison (low carb vs moderate) to make a decision strictly based on the day to day feel. Obviously one week will not support the long term fat loss or endurance, but I have more immediate concerns right now.
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Its possible there may be a tug-of-war going on here for you, with the PPARd pathway pulling in one direction and the AMPk pathway, coupled with your diet, pulling in another.

Just to ask the obvious, you have been doing your time trials in an optimally fed state?
 
Have skimmed through some earlier posts but is anyone stacking Cadarine with any other fat loss stacks? Like cardarine and ec or some other thermogenic
 
NewAgeMayan said:
Its possible there may be a tug-of-war going on here for you, with the PPARd pathway pulling in one direction and the AMPk pathway, coupled with your diet, pulling in another.

Just to ask the obvious, you have been doing your time trials in an optimally fed state?
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Not at all. My morning workouts are well fed, but my evening runs are basically (and often actually) completely fasted. My days usually look like this:
Wake/Preworkout (Alphamine+bcaa's+pre of choice+E9(1/2srv))- 5:30am
Gym - 6am - 7am
Alphamine+bcaas - 11am
Shake (usually 25g protein), 110-130cals) - 3pm (sometimes I don't get to this though depending what's going on at work
Alphamine+1/2srv E9 - 5pm
Evening Run - 5:30/6pm (as long I can go for)
Dinner (900 cals, mostly protein, trace carbs/fats) - 7:30p
PreBed (500 ish cals, protein powder+greek yog) - 9:30p

So morning workouts are fasted, but well fed from the night before, afternoon/evening runs are sometime 20hrs fasted and after a workout+full day of activity.
 
So bman...your weight training has been progressing normally, but since starting GW your evening runs have regressed? How long u been on GW?
 
CJNator said:
I never heard of anyone doing it but it seems like a good stack.
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mechka_grizli said:
Have skimmed through some earlier posts but is anyone stacking Cadarine with any other fat loss stacks? Like cardarine and ec or some other thermogenic
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I definitely couldn't see it hurting. But one generally increases cardio when on a thermogenic. Cadarine can only help with that, and the added fat loss should be a plus as well

Just don't know if anyone is actually doing it
 
NewAgeMayan said:
So bman...your weight training has been progressing normally, but since starting GW your evening runs have regressed? How long u been on GW?
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yes, weights have continued to stay the same or slightly increase.

two weeks as of tomorrow.
 
CJNator said:
Oh yea I mean just GW and EC just by themselves.
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That would be a sweet combo for a cut.

Though I'd go with EnduraShred (Osta+GW) + EC if it were me : )
 
kboxer7 said:
That would be a sweet combo for a cut.

Though I'd go with EnduraShred (Osta+GW) + EC if it were me : )
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That is what Mauy Thai is on except he is on Winny too but I'm sure he has seen results since he has added it. He had a thread up.
 
CJNator said:
That is what Mauy Thai is on except he is on Winny too but I'm sure he has seen results since he has added it. He had a thread up.
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Pretty sure he is on superdrol, LGD and RAD too lol. He's pushing it to the limit.

And as he admits, hard to tell what is doing what.
 
kboxer7 said:
Pretty sure he is on superdrol, LGD and RAD too lol. He's pushing it to the limit.

And as he admits, hard to tell what is doing what.
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dropped sdrol to test if the lethargy was from ghar1ne or rad
+250mg test cyp EW

test cyp 250mg ew
rad 3 caps ed
cardarine 3 caps ed
bronkaid 1 tab per day
ai's and a serm

no lgd although i am eager to try OL brand

lethargy still here , still taking gharine
hopping on triumph soon
I feel as if it would be unfair for me to attribute any specific gain to any certain compoudn given the synergy of them all together.
 
muay thai said:
dropped sdrol to test if the lethargy was from ghar1ne or rad
+250mg test cyp EW

test cyp 250mg ew
rad 3 caps ed
cardarine 3 caps ed
bronkaid 1 tab per day
ai's and a serm

no lgd although i am eager to try OL brand

lethargy still here , still taking gharine
hopping on triumph soon
I feel as if it would be unfair for me to attribute any specific gain to any certain compoudn given the synergy of them all together.
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kboxer7 said:
Pretty sure he is on superdrol, LGD and RAD too lol. He's pushing it to the limit.

And as he admits, hard to tell what is doing what.
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Oh **** my mind is slipping lol I remember now and yea it would be hard to know what is what but since you going for that card(I dont remember what card) then **** it, as long as you look and feel good man.
 
booneman77 said:
yes, weights have continued to stay the same or slightly increase.

two weeks as of tomorrow.
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Hmmm, curious that there has been a regression in your running but not your resistance work. Not that it should matter too much, but when you dosing GW?

Are you thinking you might try having some carbs mid-late arvo prior to your run?
 
The Official OL UK Cardar1ne Q&A

NewAgeMayan said:
Hmmm, curious that there has been a regression in your running but not your resistance work. Not that it should matter too much, but when you dosing GW?

Are you thinking you might try having some carbs mid-late arvo prior to your run?
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I dose either in the afternoon with my shake or with dinner if I skip the shake. Hasn't made any difference in feeling or time to fall asleep either way.

I feel fine each morning, strong in the gym, and as the day wears on I feel like I'm just exhausted and show all the signs of low blood sugar. Even the day after refeeds (300g carbs) I feel like garbage by the midpoint of the next day.

It seems like the gw just forces my body to use up all of my reserves much earlier in the day than it had before I started. I could fast until 8pm without any real consequences or feeling too tired but now I'm dragging by 12-1p

I have no intention of changing my eating schedule to match the gw as its both a convenience and caloric control thing for me. If I can't get this to work with my diet then the supp goes away as it doesn't support my lifestyle or goals
 
booneman77 said:
I have no intention of changing my eating schedule to match the gw as its both a convenience and caloric control thing for me. If I can't get this to work with my diet then the supp goes away as it doesn't support my lifestyle or goals
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Fair enough. I know when I get around to trying it I will be keeping everything else constant and not making alterations.
 
NewAgeMayan said:
Fair enough. I know when I get around to trying it I will be keeping everything else constant and not making alterations.
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Yep that's my plan as well. Frankly if a supplement forces you to change your lifestyle then it's not the right supp for you. They should "supplement" your goals and ha it's, not alter them
 
A couple of points:

1) just because a substance increases the preference for fat as a fuel substrate does not mean it magically shuts off the need for carbs. Energy systems lie on a continuum.

2) Cardarine is a very potent insulin sensitizer. If you don't consume adequate carbs peri-workout you will likely experience hypoglycemic effects and reduced performance. Of course, the reduced performance is dependent on how advanced you are--how hard you typically train.

3) As long as you have adequate body fat levels and your goal is body fat reduction, why would you need an especially high fat diet? You don't; the Cardarine will help to use your body fat stores for energy (as long as lipolysis is adequate).

4) Cardarine was "designed" as a metabolic and cardiovascular optimizer to treat conditions such as hypertension, metabolic syndrome, and diabetes. In none of these conditions would a high fat diet be standard protocol.
 
I can tell you from both personal experience and reading enough logs/reviews, that at 21 mg./day I felt like **** after several weeks and experienced true hypoglycemic episodes after training when my carb intake was too low. Training also began to suffer.

I've now backed it down to 14 mg./day, reduced weight and increased reps/voulme, and increased carbs. I immediately felt, and performed, better. Also, fat loss has been no slower (probably because of increased performance in the gym).

I honestly believe that the insulin sensitizing effects of Cardarine are as strong, if not stronger, than its ability to increase fat usage for energy.
 
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