grinnell27
Well-known member
I'm certain if you were taking it pre workout but drinking BCAA's during/after training before your first meal, you should be fine. I'll be running endurashred soon so I'll be putting this to the test. 
The Official OL UK Cardar1ne Q&A
- Thread starter Olympus UK
- Start date
crowbar46
Active member
I hit one training session last week and took the rest of the week off--just needed the break as I've been hypocaloric and hitting it pretty hard for a while now.
I've been allowing my calories and carbs to naturally fluctuate, with higher levels on training days, and lower on off/cardio days. So, in reality, this has been more of a recomp than a hard cut. As you might expect, leaning has been quite noticeable but not dramatic.
Last week, oddly, was when I first really noticed the endurance from the Cardarine during my "strength circuit"--at almost 4 weeks in! I think part of the explanation lies in the fact that I'm more of a low rep trainer, whereas I'd expect Cardarine to be more effective with higher rep, longer set, moderate weight training--or circuits, like my strength circuit.
Now that I feel rested and I've had a couple day refeed I may significantly drop calories and carbs for a few weeks (I have about 3 1/2 weeks left on Cardarine) before going back to a recomp and higher carbs/calories for a few days to a week.
I have to say I'm only moderately impressed with Cardarine and it occurs to me that you can achieve the same (or better) results with Epic unleashed without the lingering doubts about the long term safety of Cardarine.
I've been allowing my calories and carbs to naturally fluctuate, with higher levels on training days, and lower on off/cardio days. So, in reality, this has been more of a recomp than a hard cut. As you might expect, leaning has been quite noticeable but not dramatic.
Last week, oddly, was when I first really noticed the endurance from the Cardarine during my "strength circuit"--at almost 4 weeks in! I think part of the explanation lies in the fact that I'm more of a low rep trainer, whereas I'd expect Cardarine to be more effective with higher rep, longer set, moderate weight training--or circuits, like my strength circuit.
Now that I feel rested and I've had a couple day refeed I may significantly drop calories and carbs for a few weeks (I have about 3 1/2 weeks left on Cardarine) before going back to a recomp and higher carbs/calories for a few days to a week.
I have to say I'm only moderately impressed with Cardarine and it occurs to me that you can achieve the same (or better) results with Epic unleashed without the lingering doubts about the long term safety of Cardarine.
crowbar46
Active member
Well, at 5 weeks and 1 day my experiment with Cardarine is over.
1) I only felt the endurance effects 1 time really: 4 weeks in during one of my "strength circuits". This makes sense, as the weights used during the circuit, while still relatively heavy, would be rather light compared to my usual style of heavy weight lower rep training. I also work at a fast pace during the circuit.
2) Cardarine up regulates lipolytic enzymes too much and, I assume, down regulates glycolytic enzymes. The net result is no endurance or strength for heavier lower rep training--a deal breaker for me.
3) I'm also concerned that Cardarine may up regulate slow twitch muscle fibers and down regulate fast twitch muscle fibers. Not exactly what people engaged in strength training want!
4) Again, Cardarine may be great for endurance events/training, or moderate/light weight high(er) rep training, but not strength oriented training.
1) I only felt the endurance effects 1 time really: 4 weeks in during one of my "strength circuits". This makes sense, as the weights used during the circuit, while still relatively heavy, would be rather light compared to my usual style of heavy weight lower rep training. I also work at a fast pace during the circuit.
2) Cardarine up regulates lipolytic enzymes too much and, I assume, down regulates glycolytic enzymes. The net result is no endurance or strength for heavier lower rep training--a deal breaker for me.
3) I'm also concerned that Cardarine may up regulate slow twitch muscle fibers and down regulate fast twitch muscle fibers. Not exactly what people engaged in strength training want!
4) Again, Cardarine may be great for endurance events/training, or moderate/light weight high(er) rep training, but not strength oriented training.
chedapalooza
Legend
Interesting
crowbar46
Active member
Also, the longer I've used the Cardarine the LESS endurance and strength I have for my style of training.
Today it was so bad I cut my workout short. Looking back on it, I think the reason I felt like I needed a break this last week was because of the reduced endurance and strength, not because of the relatively low calories and carbs.
Today it was so bad I cut my workout short. Looking back on it, I think the reason I felt like I needed a break this last week was because of the reduced endurance and strength, not because of the relatively low calories and carbs.
CJNator
Well-known member
I agree with this. First time I took it I was on LGD. No strength gains and muscular endurance wasn't really their too much even with LGD.
kboxer7
Well-known member
It certainly makes more sense for those involved in endurance / lengthy cardio / high volume type training and that is where it really shines.
booneman77
Legend
I'll be able to give some good feedback on the true endurance aspects of it. I'm about 5 days in right now and am training for a half marathon in October. I have actually been changing my lifting to incorporate "100 reps in minimal # of sets" type exercises for a main lift on hyper days (bb rows, lateral raises, squats, and bench). I should see progression in both my running endurance, as well as my lifting endurance if this stuff does what it's reported to.
nasrenegade
New member
yates84 I think you made an error... it is pretty much the opposite as GW actually shift your body's preferential fuel from carbs to fat while, at the same time, improves muscle cell's insulin sensivity and glucose captation... anyway you're right: it is a good addition for a lean bulk (I'm thinking of using it this way soon)
Idk if i missed it, but would this also infer that Cardarine is even more effective ( for fatloss ) to thos following a low-carb or Ketogenic diet?
mechka_grizli
Well-known member
To my understanding you do not want to go low carb while on Cadarine. Could potentially lead to some terrible hypoglycemia issues
nasrenegade
New member
But if you already follow a keto style diet then you will be lacking carbs as well as having low blood sugar already.
thu_hobbit
Active member
Exactly and the cardarine can possibly drop it even more from what ive eead on multiple logs...possibly even make you pass out from lowering it too much
booneman77
Legend
I'm running it with super low carbs as well... no issues as of yet.
nasrenegade
New member
I dont have an intimate understanding of the effect of Ketosis on the human body, but if your body is producing ketones, you are, ( for all intents and purposes ) glycogen depleted. So if you are in a depleted state, where does your blood sugar ( or lack thereof ) come into play? Gluconeogenesis will kick you out of Ketosis if im not mistaken, and so if youre not consuming much if any carbs, you blood sugar should be in the "dangerously low" area to begin with.
Would it be better to be Ketosis or does that add in too much redundancy?
Would it be better to be Ketosis or does that add in too much redundancy?
Hastur
Well-known member
Well if you are on a Keto diet, and already Keto adapted, then it's a whole different scenario. I doubt Cardarine is going to drastically affect people doing Keto the same way it can others.
I'm ud2.0, so 50grams a day. Still standing
Well, like I've said several times, it's highly individual. If anyone notices hypoglycemia, then dose can be modulated and carbs can be as well, but if you find that it doesn't affect you as such, fantastic! Not everyone is going to have the same side effects.
Hastur
Well-known member
You aren't necessarily glycogen depleted, if you time your carbs properly surrounding workouts. But yes, your blood sugar will be low, and yes gluconeogenesis will kick you out of ketosis, thats why you avoid having TOO high of a protein intake. I'm not sure what you mean by "Would it be better to be Ketosis or does that add in too much redundancy?" If you want to know how ketogenic diets work, there is a lot of information out there, I've done one last year, best I've ever looked and worst I've ever felt. If you're asking if Cardarine is best paired with a ketogenic diet, I wouldn't recommend it. It's a compound best suited for endurance athletes, likely on a moderately high to high carb diet. Like competitive cyclists.
nasrenegade
New member
What Im saying is, ketones are produced from fat right? So your primary source of fuel is fat. Would it be better/more efficient to consume Cardarine in state where fat is the primary fuel source (ketosis), or is that redundant because fat is already your primary fuel source?
On the topic of endurance, isnt fat more used for aerobic activity? So for the purpose of endurance, where Cardarine shines, ( isnt this due to make fat the preferential fuel source? ) why would a carb loaded diet be better where they are less used, as opposed to a diet where fat is the primary fuel source? Thanks for your help, Im just trying to get my info straight.
jbryand101b
Banned
100g carbs or less per day to get into ketosis
Hastur
Well-known member
Perhaps, if you're utilizing Cardarine purely for fat loss. But I can only hypothesize. Cardarine is a multi-faceted compound, so it really depends on your goals. It sounds like you intend to use it for fat loss alone. If that's the case, Ketosis will of course cause you to lose more fat with any compound as you force your body to run on fat. Is it optimal? I cannot say. As for endurance, depending on what level of intensity we are talking about, lets say cyclists, they will run on carbs until they hit 'the wall' and their body switches from running on carbs to fat due to glycogen depletion. Cardarine would help here by making your body more efficient after such a switch, however if you are competing you'd likely carb load knowing full well you'll burn through it, and then once you have Cardarine shines.
nasrenegade
New member
That is what I was hypothesizing which is why I asked here. Ive asked elsewhere before but to no avail. I feel as though for the purpose of a cut, if the use of Cardarine can maximize the side effect of ketosis ( fat loss ), or vice versa, then it could potentially lead to faster and more efficient cutting phases. And who wouldnt like that?
Arent those both basically the same situation? They are at least quite similar as both use carbs as the primary fuel soruce. I was talking more like LISS, where fat is indeed the primary fuel source.
jbryand101b
Banned
Carbs being used vs fat depends on your heart rate.
If your body can't get enough oxygen to keep up with the energy demands, carbohydrates will eventually become the main source of fuel as your body doesn't need oxygen to use glycogen for fuel.
If your body can't get enough oxygen to keep up with the energy demands, carbohydrates will eventually become the main source of fuel as your body doesn't need oxygen to use glycogen for fuel.
Hastur
Well-known member
Well, I cannot recommend using Cardarine while on a ketogenic diet, however if you choose to do so, monitor yourself and be mindful of possible side effects. And there must be some sort of miscommunication here, because I don't see what you mean that they are basically the same situation. However, there are limitless scenarios and variables to account for. Does LISS burn more fat? I mean, if you're doing fasted morning cardio, have had zero insulin spikes, then yes, you are probably burning some fat that you've freed overnight while fasting. Is it going to be significant? Is it really the optimal use of Cardarine? I cannot say. Cardarine is an AMPK activator and PPAR modulator, it's effects are widespread. If you want to follow a ketogenic diet and do LISS, yes, Cardarine will help you lose fat while doing so. But by it's mechanisms of action, it will do so regardless of your diet type or preferred form of cardiovascular exercise. The results you see will of course be dictated by such things, but it has such a broad amount of applications, I cannot address them all.
crowbar46
Active member
UPDATE:
1) OK, I can't wimp out on you guys I've come too far already. So, I'm going to drastically change up my training for the next 3 weeks and finish out the Cardarine run at my present 21 mg./day. I was just too impressed with my performance on my strength circuit.
2) training will be higher rep, high density, utilizing alternating sets and antagonistic supersets, more isolation work, and constant tension, accentuated negatives work. I'll continue with my 3 x week, 1 Hr. morning walks.
3) I'll increase calories and carbs just a little to maximize the effects of this type of training, allowing my body fat to "pay the metabolic price" of adding more LBM. This is doable if you have over about 10% body fat (I do).
4) I have noticed low blood sugar on Cardarine, primarily after training. This .makes sense, as your insulin sensitivity is increased by the training as well as the Cardarine, sucking up all the available carbs (I use Biotest Plasma pre and intra workout).
1) OK, I can't wimp out on you guys I've come too far already. So, I'm going to drastically change up my training for the next 3 weeks and finish out the Cardarine run at my present 21 mg./day. I was just too impressed with my performance on my strength circuit.
2) training will be higher rep, high density, utilizing alternating sets and antagonistic supersets, more isolation work, and constant tension, accentuated negatives work. I'll continue with my 3 x week, 1 Hr. morning walks.
3) I'll increase calories and carbs just a little to maximize the effects of this type of training, allowing my body fat to "pay the metabolic price" of adding more LBM. This is doable if you have over about 10% body fat (I do).
4) I have noticed low blood sugar on Cardarine, primarily after training. This .makes sense, as your insulin sensitivity is increased by the training as well as the Cardarine, sucking up all the available carbs (I use Biotest Plasma pre and intra workout).
huxley309
Member
Totally, i found this out pretty quickly into my first week, plus it tends to mask the onset so when you do go hypo oh boy does it hit you.
Plus the fat loss is sufficient in that any extra carbs are easily used up anyway.
thu_hobbit
Active member
Do you have any before/after pics or stats from when you used cardarine? All i usually see is logs but they done have pics to show what improved. Im just interested on how well it helps fat loss
nasrenegade
New member
I think youre trying to think too deeply and account for too many variables haha. I know there are an unlimited amount of factors, so we cant address them all, but Im not asking if LISS burns more fat, nor am I asking about Cardarines specific MoA. I guess I will simply have to try it myself and see what happens.
chedapalooza
Legend
booneman77
Legend
True, but I still reach ketosis very quickly due to the length of my fasts and timing of my workouts/running. I deplete very quickly.But u refeed twice a week!
booneman77
Legend
Same as mine. I'm one week in and no effect this far at 14mg
jbryand101b
Banned
Mine are blue an white
Dragoninho
Member
Blue and white as well.
I´m two weeks in my cardarine cycle. 14 mg for the last week. No noticeble effect in the endurance part yet but fat loss is definitely there.
Unfortunately I take it mostly for the endurance effect...
I´m two weeks in my cardarine cycle. 14 mg for the last week. No noticeble effect in the endurance part yet but fat loss is definitely there.
Unfortunately I take it mostly for the endurance effect...
NewAgeMayan
Well-known member
The studies and MoA of Cardar1ne would suggest that any possible endurance benefits are going to take time to manifest. As Hastur has pointed out, the compound works in a number of ways and via a number of pathways, and as such the users particular physical makeup will very much determine its impact.
Its unfortunate that not many people appear to have gotten a lipid panel done prior to their cycles. Whilst not necessary of course, it is the objective equivalent of getting bloods done when running a SARM.
Its unfortunate that not many people appear to have gotten a lipid panel done prior to their cycles. Whilst not necessary of course, it is the objective equivalent of getting bloods done when running a SARM.
Hastur
Well-known member
I find it interesting we see a lot of people reporting either one or the other. Either no increase endurance but fat loss, or no fat loss but increased endurance. Hmm. Obviously this doesn't apply to all the reports, but it seems a good number are split as such. Though, we have to imagine a large number of users are not reporting at all, and we only hear from a small percentage of total users.
NewAgeMayan
Well-known member
This split indicates the user-relative activation of the AMPK pathway versus PPARd agonism?
NewAgeMayan
Well-known member
For anyone interested...
Further to what has already been noted re GW501516 and cancer, the bulk of these studies have been done in vitro using techniques with questionable confounds; as such, for every study like this there is at least another demonstrating the opposite ie PPAR agonism inhibits proliferation.
Hastur has previously alluded to one in vivo study that showed PPARd agonism by GW501516 in itself does not cause or generate tumor growth. This has been demonstrated via numerous cancer cell lines (melanoma, breast, lung, gastric and colon).
Further to what has already been noted re GW501516 and cancer, the bulk of these studies have been done in vitro using techniques with questionable confounds; as such, for every study like this there is at least another demonstrating the opposite ie PPAR agonism inhibits proliferation.
Hastur has previously alluded to one in vivo study that showed PPARd agonism by GW501516 in itself does not cause or generate tumor growth. This has been demonstrated via numerous cancer cell lines (melanoma, breast, lung, gastric and colon).
chedapalooza
Legend
I just had lipids done among many other tests. I don't plan on using GW til October but I'm sure not much will change in one month
NewAgeMayan
Well-known member
Unless you start/stop something like lecithin granules then yeah
chedapalooza
Legend
Nope
ma70
Well-known member
Interesting. I'm seeing this stuff in some US stores but this is from Olympus UK (which I assume is obviously meant for overseas stuff). By skimming over this thread, Cardarine isn't even a SARM and it doesn't seem to pose any immediate health risks (such as cancers, bloodwork/hormones) so I wonder why everyone hasn't jumped on this. Some of the cardarine threads I've googled on the internet pretty much state that this stuff is a miracle worker, haha.
grinnell27
Well-known member
It will be sold worldwide, the OL UK is just mainly geared towards the SARM and PPAR market, the risks of GW are extremely minimal after much testing and research.
It's an incredible product for fat loss and endurance, don't expect much in strength gains though.. You prob already knew that though.
I think people were worried when it first came out about the 'cancer risks' however the studies were done in large doses on rats, no where near what humans would be taking. (Lb for lb).
ma70
Well-known member
Seems to be a perfect cutting tool, especially for those who are carb intolerant. (although I actually handle carbs extremely well). What are the supposed risks/side effects of Cardarine (other than cancer, which has been ruled out)?
booneman77
Legend
I had/have really high hopes for this stuff, but so far (only 1.5wks in so take that as it is) I have seen slight bloating/weight gain (wih no change in diet/training), zero endurance, mild hypo/low bs signs sometimes toward the end of my fasts, and falling asleep has been somewhat difficult (which is unheard of for me). Gonna run out this bottle, but if things continue as-is, I'm gonna be bummed.
clown007
Well-known member
Hey booneman77 for me, it took 4 weeks to see the positives. Before that I was experiencing the same stuff as you.
The hypoglycaemia and headaches happened for me at 21mg and was fixed thanks to playing with carbs and sodium (thanks to Hastur for the recommendation).
As of now (5weeks in) I am down 3% body fat.
I felt the same way as you about GW until it finally showed its effects.
I must say that for me I am not seeing the huge uptick in overall endurance that some are, recovery is good but could be the result of the LGD/Alpha Stano/ Dermacrine I am also running.
The hypoglycaemia and headaches happened for me at 21mg and was fixed thanks to playing with carbs and sodium (thanks to Hastur for the recommendation).
As of now (5weeks in) I am down 3% body fat.
I felt the same way as you about GW until it finally showed its effects.
I must say that for me I am not seeing the huge uptick in overall endurance that some are, recovery is good but could be the result of the LGD/Alpha Stano/ Dermacrine I am also running.
schizm
Well-known member
Curious, have you had success with any other PPAR agonists in the past?
Months ago I ran 3 bottles of GW back to back, minimal effects/results...but seem to echo what I've experiened from PPAR agonist supps in general...granted, I didn't have the most consistently clean diet, but still with GW being talked up so much thought some decent results would be had...
ma70
Well-known member
Yeah I'm still on the fence with this one. Mainly because of mixed results (compared to hype) and because I don't really think I need it because I tolerate carbs quite well on my own and I mainly need things that control my appetite to help me cut.
crowbar46
Active member
UPDATE:
1) If you guys aren't familar with it there is an excellent discussion of GW on a site called Invalid Link Removed . What's really interesting is the discussion after the article, which includes a lot of discussion by a PH.D. in biochemistry from the University of Chicago.
2) The article confirms many of the observations I've made of GW:
a) it does NOT work well for max effort type training; or even, I find, relatively fast paced straight sets. In fact, over time I became weaker at high effort sets (> 85-90%)
b) it DOES work well for longer duration/higher rep sets, high work density (e.g., supersets, antagonistic supersets, giant sets, etc.), conditioning/GPP work, circuits, barbell complexes, LISS, etc.
3) I honestly think the endurance aspect of GW is a bit overrated, unless your training is optimized to take advantage of it, and even then I don't think it's as dramatic for me as some have claimed.
4) One very important effect from GW is the insulin sensitizing. Over time, this can really assist in body composition shifts--more LBM. and less fat. This effect was VERY strong. In fact, at 21 mg. it was too strong! I had outright hypoglycemic episodes, mainly after training. This is what gives that hard muscle "perma pump" that I get from cardarine--I mean 24 Hrs. a day!
5) 21 mg. a day made me feel like ****! I have now backed it down to 14 mg. day and immediately feel better. bad in what way you ask? Well, several weeks into my cycle I started experiencing really sore achy muscles and joints--but mainly muscles. It was enough to make me take notice. Lo and behold, the PH.D. from the University of Chicago believes that Cardarine can, in high doses, induce rhabdomyolysis (a condition causing the rapid breakdown of muscle tissue)!
The PH.D. does believe GW has potential ergogenic uses, but advises to use it in much smaller doses with a more conservative cycle length.
1) If you guys aren't familar with it there is an excellent discussion of GW on a site called Invalid Link Removed . What's really interesting is the discussion after the article, which includes a lot of discussion by a PH.D. in biochemistry from the University of Chicago.
2) The article confirms many of the observations I've made of GW:
a) it does NOT work well for max effort type training; or even, I find, relatively fast paced straight sets. In fact, over time I became weaker at high effort sets (> 85-90%)
b) it DOES work well for longer duration/higher rep sets, high work density (e.g., supersets, antagonistic supersets, giant sets, etc.), conditioning/GPP work, circuits, barbell complexes, LISS, etc.
3) I honestly think the endurance aspect of GW is a bit overrated, unless your training is optimized to take advantage of it, and even then I don't think it's as dramatic for me as some have claimed.
4) One very important effect from GW is the insulin sensitizing. Over time, this can really assist in body composition shifts--more LBM. and less fat. This effect was VERY strong. In fact, at 21 mg. it was too strong! I had outright hypoglycemic episodes, mainly after training. This is what gives that hard muscle "perma pump" that I get from cardarine--I mean 24 Hrs. a day!
5) 21 mg. a day made me feel like ****! I have now backed it down to 14 mg. day and immediately feel better. bad in what way you ask? Well, several weeks into my cycle I started experiencing really sore achy muscles and joints--but mainly muscles. It was enough to make me take notice. Lo and behold, the PH.D. from the University of Chicago believes that Cardarine can, in high doses, induce rhabdomyolysis (a condition causing the rapid breakdown of muscle tissue)!
The PH.D. does believe GW has potential ergogenic uses, but advises to use it in much smaller doses with a more conservative cycle length.