Topic of the Week: Is going on HRT still natural to you?

[Chuck Diesel]

I just love debating with guys that tihnk the rules are the rules are the rules....it generally shows how their basis for opinion isn't based on anything scientific, but perception and "its the rules".
.

Well after being in the military for 8 yrs and business like 20 yrs...you learn that rules are what they are you either... get out, dnt compete, or yes you can challenge them but people need to realize their personal opion doesnt mean a rule is "stupid." AM got all kinds of rules.

2009 i got an infraction for telling someone where to get my product when their question was "where can i get this product NP is out of stock" now i could have huffed and puffed all i wanted but you guys will say "u posted a source 2 get ur product and ur not a sponsor currently...you can go 2 another board if u dnt wanna play by the rules." So actually with AM having a gang rules that no member can change....how you dont get rules in sports organizations?

 

[Chuck Diesel]

Actually its does since its the basis for many of what the sports organizations deem legal/illegal....so my point remains....if they deem HRT as not natural, why do they allow other substances that are not as well.

They are not calling cortisone shots "natural" pain relieve. Its allowed. Before i posted where you can be on "not natural drugs" in WADA if you apply for an exception. Organizations are not making decisions that determine what is natural or not. They are telling you what is allowed or not.

Thats like saying "why cant i smoke crack at work but those guys over there take smoke breaks. Smoking causes cancer...why are cigarettes natural and crack isnt??" When no one said one or the other was natural or not. One is permitted and one is not

 

[Admin]

Well after being in the military for 8 yrs and business like 20 yrs...you learn that rules are what they are get out, dnt compete, or yes you can challenge them but people need to realize their person opion doesnt mean a rule is "stupid." AM got all kinds of rules.

2009 i got an infraction for telling someone where to get my product when their question was "where can i get this product NP is out of stock" now i could have huffed and puffed all i wanted but you guys will say "u posted a source 2 get ur product and ur not a sponsor currently...you can go 2 another board if u dnt wanna play by the rules." So actually with AM having a gang rules that no member can change....how you dont get rules in sports organizations?

So wait, we are now debating AM's rules to that of sports organizations?

I've changed a bunch of rules as conditions change. Why is it that you seem against changing anything because "its the rules"?

If the criteria for a rule is that its not natural, then allowing cortisone shots IS stupid. Thats my opinion but its also common sense. Yet your defense of that is "its the rules".

 

[Admin]

They are not calling cortisone shots "natural" pain relieve. Its allowed. Before i posted where you can be on "not natural drugs" in WADA if you apply for an exception. Organizations are not making decisions that determine what is natural or not. They are telling you what is allowed or not.

Actually, their initial reasoning behind it all is to keep it "natural" before they started picking and choosing.

Thats like saying "why cant i smoke crack at work but those guys over there take smoke breaks. Smoking causes cancer...why are cigarettes natural and crack isnt??" When no one said one or the other was natural or not. One is permitted and one is not

LOL...now we're on to crack. You might be the king of extreme hypotheticals.

 

[Chuck Diesel]

So wait, we are now debating AM's rules to that of sports organizations?

I've changed a bunch of rules as conditions change. Why is it that you seem against changing anything because "its the rules"?

If the criteria for a rule is that its not natural, then allowing cortisone shots IS stupid. Thats my opinion but its also common sense. Yet your defense of that is "its the rules".

Im not against changing anything. Im saying i am ok with playing by the rules. I got rules all around me. FDA rules all over the place. im saying permitted and not permitted has nothing 2 do with natural. We ar least need to get that worked out. Do you want someone working for you who just thinks abt how they,can change the rules of the organization all day bc they feel somethings are stupid? Y or N ?

 

[Chuck Diesel]

So wait, we are now debating AM's rules to that of sports organizations?

.

Yes bc its an organization AM...we are members and sponsors.....we have to comply w the rules or we will b booted from the organization. Its actually the same thing when it comes to rules. Not the actual rule but the concept. AM has moderators. Why do they have mods? To enforce the rules. Why do members get banned?? For consistently breaking the rules....

 

[Admin]

im saying permitted and not permitted has nothing 2 do with natural. We ar least need to get that worked out.

So the natural bb'ing orgzanizations that you mentioned are basing their rules on....not being natural?!?!?!

Do you want someone working for you who just thinks abt how they,can change the rules of the organization all day bc they feel somethings are stupid? Y or N ?

You are confusing the ability to change the rules with someone questioning them. They have every legal right to questions them. I'm not sure anyone in this thread said ahtleted have the right ot change anything on the fly. Can you point me to where I stated such?

 

[Admin]

Yes bc its an organization AM...we are members and sponsors.....we have to comply w the rules or we will b booted from the organization. Its actually the same thing when it comes to rules. Not the actual rule but the concept. AM has moderators. Why do they have mods? To enforce the rules. Why do members get banned?? For consistently breaking the rules....

Actually its not at all. You are under no organziation here at all. Comparing WADA to AM's rules is sort of funny.

"I've changed a bunch of rules as conditions change."

And you've seemed to ignore that part.

 

[Chuck Diesel]

So the natural bb'ing orgzanizations that you mentioned are basing their rules on....not being natural?!?!?!

You have every right to question NPC rules. That doesnt mean they are "stupid" or changing. I was under the impression that you did not believe they
serve a purpose.

NPC, NG-whatever the other one is I never competed in....the NPC I did., the ADFPF (powerlifting I did). This is how it worked. You have a list of banned substances. In powerlifing, if you were in the finals you sat in a pit and got pissed tested, in the drug free categories at the NPC shows, you got polygraphed and piss tested. What I am saying is if you took anything on that list....you were not in compliance with the rules. <-- nothing says this list tells you what is natural and what is not natural.

Rules != Not natural. IE rules does not = not natural. I think you think that is the case.

An organization has rules. Like the FDA, Anabolicminds. You either comply or risk a chance of infractions or
being banned.

I mean, thats pretty simple. I spent 4 hours going back in forth with 2 manufactures on the FDA's rules on supplement facts panels
in reference to "other ingredients" and carbohydrates. I really don't have time to debate rules and natural and a rule indicates not natural
because the rules are still there.

 

[Admin]

You have every right to question NPC rules. That doesnt mean they are "stupid" or changing. I was under the impression that you did not believe they
serve a purpose.

According to some they are! And they have every right stating such. Rules always serve a purpose, but that doens't mean they are infallible.

NPC, NG-whatever the other one is I never competed in....the NPC I did., the ADFPF (powerlifting I did). This is how it worked. You have a list of banned substances. In powerlifing, if you were in the finals you sat in a pit and got pissed tested, in the drug free categories at the NPC shows, you got polygraphed and piss tested. What I am saying is if you took anything on that list....you were not in compliance with the rules. <-- nothing says this list tells you what is natural and what is not natural.

But their basis for putting them on that list is based on something...whether they are trying to leep everything natural, level playing field, whatever...there is a criteria that should be consistent. And sometimes the person that broke the rule points out that consistency and the rule changes based on logic, reason and science.

Rules != Not natural. IE rules does not = not natural. I think you think that is the case.

Umm..no but do you think they are putting those substancess on the list for health reasons?!?!?!?!

Natural bodybuilding organziations have rules on what is permitted because they want "natural" athletes. Their entire existence and rules are based on having "natural" athletes....so how can you tell me thier entire basis for what is legal or not legal is not based on what is "natural'?

An organization has rules. Like the FDA, Anabolicminds. You either comply or risk a chance of infractions or
being banned.

And you have legal means to question and challenge them. When it comes to AM, you are not contractually bound to anything here and its 100% voluntary. With the FDA you have legal obligations and have the right to challenge their interperation. So its not, "the rules are the rules". Their rules, by its very nature of an orgaznations and what it regulates, change all the time.

I mean, thats pretty simple. I spent 4 hours going back in forth with 2 manufactures on the FDA's rules on supplement facts panels
in reference to "other ingredients" and carbohydrates. I really don't have time to debate rules and natural and a rule indicates not natural
because the rules are still there.

So you went back and forth over the rules.....isn't that what people are doing here? Questioning the reasoning BEHIND the rules?

 

[Chuck Diesel]

Actually its not at all. You are under no organziation here at all. Comparing WADA to AM's rules is sort of funny.

"I've changed a bunch of rules as conditions change."

And you've seemed to ignore that part.

I didnt ignor that part, I was giving an example of a rule at AM that I thought was stupid and my choice was
to leave AM or stay. Its not really a big deal if I thought it was stupid or not or changed, or still in place.
AM is an organization:

"an organized body of people with a particular purpose, especially a business, society, association, etc."

 

[Chuck Diesel]

So you went back and forth over the rules.....isn't that what people are doing here? Questioning the reasoning BEHIND the rules?

No was trying to tell them what the rule where, and how my label was in compliance with the rule(s). I didn't question it, they where. I was telling them the rules per the CFR, FDA Law and Federal Register.

 

[Admin]

I didnt ignor that part, I was giving an example of a rule at AM that I thought was stupid and my choice was
to leave AM or stay. Its not really a big deal if I thought it was stupid or not or changed, or still in place.
AM is an organization:

"an organized body of people with a particular purpose, especially a business, society, association, etc."

Legally, you would never be considering a part of AM the orginzation. Members are not unified into one purpose. That would be like saying any newsite you made a comment on, you are part of the organization.

 

[Admin]

No was trying to tell them what the rule where, and how my label was in compliance with the rule(s). I didn't question it, they were. I was telling
them the rules per the CFR, FDA Law and Federal Register.

And those rules are up for intepretation and you have the legal right to challenge them, or the FDA over it.

 

[Chuck Diesel]

When it comes to AM, you are not contractually bound to anything here and its 100% voluntary. With the FDA you have legal obligations and have the right to challenge their interperation. So its not, "the rules are the rules". Their rules, by its very nature of an orgaznations and what it regulates, change all the time.

^^ Exactly! You can not compete in the organization...no one is contractually bound to compete in drug tested events, or in organizations that allow cortisone shots and not test injections every week. Nothing at all to do with natural. People comply or leave right? Just like here at AM?

 

[Chuck Diesel]

And those rules are up for intepretation and you have the legal right to challenge them, or the FDA over it.

I didn't challenge the rules, the manufactures did, well wasn't clear in this case. I don't need to legally challenge any FDA rules.

 

[Admin]

^^ Exactly! You can not compete in the organization...no one is contractually bound to compete in drug tested events, or in organizations that allow cortisone shots and not test injections every week. Nothing at all to do with natural. People comply or leave right? Just like here at AM?

And the rules have changed at AM based on the conditions and changing environement.

 

[Admin]

^^ Exactly! You can not compete in the organization...no one is contractually bound to compete in drug tested events, or in organizations that allow cortisone shots and not test injections every week. Nothing at all to do with natural. People comply or leave right? Just like here at AM?

So wait....a natural bb'ing orginzation has rules you have to follow...and they have nothing to do with being "natural"?


And you still havne't answered my question on what the rules are based on. So WADA made rules of what you can take or not to take based on what? Health reasons?!?!?! LOL

 

[Chuck Diesel]

So wait....a natural bb'ing orginzation has rules you have to follow...and they have nothing to do with being "natural"?


And you still havne't answered my question on what the rules are based on. So WADA made rules of what you can take or not to take based on what? Health reasons?!?!?! LOL

the rules do not mean anything that is not allowed means its not natural. <-- Thats exactly what I said.

 

[Admin]

the rules do not mean anything that is not allowed means its not natural. <-- Thats exactly what I said.

Huh?

 

[Chuck Diesel]

Huh?

Rules: These things are allowed
Rules: These things are not allowed

The not allowed drugs and hormones are not allowed because they are not allowed.

Are all the allowed items "natural?" No

Are all the banned substances banned because they are not natural?" No

 

[Chuck Diesel]

Lets reset this:

"Topic of the Week (Summer): Is going on HRT still natural to you?"

Me: No

 

[Admin]

Rules: These things are allowed
Rules: These things are not allowed

The not allowed drugs and hormones are not allowed because they are not allowed.

Are all the allowed items "natural?" No

Are all the banned substances banned because they are not natural?" No

And for the 3rd time, what are the rules based on? What are natural bb'ing organizations rules based on?

What are WADA's rules based on?


Health concerns? :lol:

 

[Chuck Diesel]

And for the 3rd time, what are the rules based on? What are natural bb'ing organizations rules based on?

idk, what are AM rules based on?? No one cares, they just need to comply or leave. Why would I care what the rules are based on for every
single organization that has rules? You would spend all day worrying about rules when you have a choice to not even deal w the rules.
Time spent on worrying about rules is less time making $$ or educating yourself on something else.

Test injections are not "naturally" increasing test levels. <-- my new direction.

 

[Admin]

idk, what are AM rules based on?? No one cares, they just need to comply or leave. Why would I care what the rules are based on for every
single organization that has rules? You would spend all day worrying about rules when you have a choice to not even deal w the rules.
Time spent on worrying about rules is less time making $$ or educating yourself on something else.

Test injections are not "naturally" increasing test levels. <-- my new direction.
elevating test levels.

In other words, you don't want to admit that the rules are meant to keep everyone natural in natural bb'ing orginzations. So the concept of what is natural IS a part of it.

Why you can't admit that is beyond me.....ok...fine...doping rules have nothing to do with being natural. :lol:

 

[Chuck Diesel]

In other words, you don't want to admit that the rules are meant to keep everyone natural in natural bb'ing orginzations. So the concept of what is natural IS a part of it.

Why you can't admit that is beyond me.....ok...fine...doping rules have nothing to do with being natural. :lol:

No bb'ing rules are for people to compete withing some type of range of competition. Doping rules dont because any drug
used is not natural and I posted a link where you can apply for an exemption to use a drug.

It has nothing to do with "100% natutral, organic, tree bark only."

 

[Admin]

No bb'ing rules are for people to compete withing some type of range of competition. Doping rules dont because any drug
used is not natural and I posted a link where you can apply for an exemption to use a drug.

It has nothing to do with "100% natutral, organic, tree bark only."

I asked about natural asociations. You don't think their rules have anything to do with being "natural"? I have no idea why you have this objection to admitting that.

So its meant to keep a range? So doping rules are meant to keep everyone in a slightly unnatural range?

 

[Chuck Diesel]

I asked about natural asociations. You don't think their rules have anything to do with being "natural"? I have no idea why you have this objection to admitting that.

So its meant to keep a range? So doping rules are meant to keep everyone in a slightly unnatural range?

Im saying I dont care what their rules have to do with, and I know you can use drugs like cortisone in their organization so
why would I think they think everything they allow is "natural?" Thats like the NFL and ADD drugs, then me implying the NFL
thinks everything that is allowed is natural. That would mean I think drugs are natural.

Your getting into range of what? Doping doesnt test for ng/dl they test for testosterone to epitestosterone. So all you thinking
you should be able to take test as long as you are not over 1200 ng/dl is wrong., you can be 500 ng/dl and fail a doping test
if you test to epitest is 12:1 ratio.

 

[Admin]

Im saying I dont care what their rules have to do with, and I know you can use drugs like cortisone in their organization so
why would I think they think everything they allow is "natural?" Thats like the NFL and ADD drugs, then me implying the NFL
thinks everything that is allowed is natural. That would mean I think drugs are natural.

Your getting into range of what? Doping doesnt test for ng/dl they test for testosterone to epitestosterone. So all you thinking
you should be able to take test as long as you are not over 1200 ng/dl is wrong., you can be 500 ng/dl and fail a doping test
if you test to epitest is 12:1 ratio.

Well thats fine you don't care, but stating natural has nothing to do with it while the entire concept of natural bb'ing revolves around it, its pretty ridiculous. Its a pretty easy thing to admit.

You said "bb'ing rules are for people to compete withing some type of range of competition."

So that would be a slightly unnatural range...since they allow some drugs...correct?


You seem to be stuck on testosterone ratios....I haven't mentioned that.

 

[MrKleen73]

And shooting cortisone into your knee isn't natural either.

I didn't raise a point about what's permitted.


You can't seem to answer that question on why one is fine and another is not other than "it's the rules". In fact, nobody has.

Oh I most certainly did. The reason sucks but the reason is simple. Steroids have been demonized in the media so they are automatically bad. This is the reason. Is it logical FUG NO! However it is the real reason.

The can of worms that opens is...well, its not a can anymore..its a giant sized bucket.

Cortisone shot ---> taken to mask pain and reduce inflamation ---> actually does harm you over time ---> Legal

HRT --> taken to normalize hormone levels ---> actually beneficial to health ---> banned.

Logic.

There is not logic, just media induced irrational fear creating a negative mindset regarding steroids. The media has more power in our country than any other entity. Don't be fooled, popular opinion drives society and popular opinion is based off of what the media presents everyone.

If you are looking for a logical answer to the question we can close the thread now because that ain't happening. Now if just enjoying the banter then by all means keep on rocking!

Hrt isnt 100% benicicial to health unless u plan on staying in it for life. I know a guy who was on HRT for 7 yrs. His LH .2 now and wont go up.

Legal and illegalis abt organization rules. HRT..ie taking test shots will never b legal in competition....but luckily for people getting shots....there are tons of non tested organizations they can compete in again other ppl on test etc. But they usually wanna compete against the "natty" ppl

Many of your posts leave me wondering if you understand the true purpose of TRT /HRT, which is the subject here. I also have to wonder if the guy you know understood it when he got on. It is a lifetime commitment! That is not and has never been a secret!!!! Many of the comments you make refer to everyone who is trying to take advantage of TRT and not people who need it. You keep mentioning all of these other people who are cruising on test, people who don't need TRT but trick the blood test so they can cruise legally. That is not TRT, that is a someone committing fraud.

So wait....a natural bb'ing orginzation has rules you have to follow...and they have nothing to do with being "natural"?


And you still havne't answered my question on what the rules are based on. So WADA made rules of what you can take or not to take based on what? Health reasons?!?!?! LOL

Nope to keep the playground "fair" for what their organization deems natural athletes to be. Whether some of the things make sense logically or not. Like the use of plasma rich blood, or cortisone being okay doesn't make tons of sense logically in a natural only competition of any type, but they have the power to dictate it within their organization. Each entitiy gets to lay down their own interpretation of natural and what they will accept. Hopefully there will be some more progressive movement towards these types of situations. Perhaps a Masters level exception for TRT being okay would be an easier way to modify it. However I do understand the need or desire for a set standard of what would and would not be an acceptable level if on TRT.

 

[Chuck Diesel]

Well thats fine you don't care, but stating natural has nothing to do with it while the entire concept of natural bb'ing revolves around it, its pretty ridiculous. Its a pretty easy thing to admit.

You said "bb'ing rules are for people to compete withing some type of range of competition."

So that would be a slightly unnatural range...since they allow some drugs...correct?


You seem to be stuck on testosterone ratios....I haven't mentioned that.

The thread started is TRT natural.
Its not. They dont test for test levels they test for a ratio that indicates if test has been introduced to the body from outside sources.

 

[Admin]

Oh I most certainly did. The reason sucks but the reason is simple. Steroids have been demonized in the media so they are automatically bad. This is the reason. Is it logical FUG NO! However it is the real reason.

In others, as I said, nbody has really "answered" it. Public ignorance isn't really an answer...its a perception but nobody can answer why, scientifically one is banned and on is not. Thats what I am looking for.

There is not logic, just media induced irrational fear creating a negative mindset regarding steroids.

Hence my sarcasm in posting "logic".

Nope to keep the playground "fair" for what their organization deems natural athletes to be.

Exaclty my point...so the concept of what a natural athlete is....is relevant...which then leads to question WHAT they believe is natural and the house of cards will fall. Their explanations are not based on science whatsoever, but percetion and ignorance. Their rules are based on that so questioning their rules is questioning their interpreation of what is "natural". Thats how it is extremely relevant.

 

[Chuck Diesel]

Ok my stance is going on hrt isnt naturally elevating test levels. Also my stace is organization have rules. Idc whats there justification for them. If i ask for a justification for every single AM rule no matter what the justification is my job is 2 comply or leave. Thats how I powerlifted. Thats how I competed. - over and out

 

[Admin]

The thread started is TRT natural.
Its not. They dont test for test levels they test for a ratio that indicates if test has been introduced to the body from outside sources.

Then the concept of what natural is came up since it does have conflicting definitions to some...

 

[ral]

In my opinion this is a useless argument. Is trt legal? Yes is trt good for you? Yes (as long as your body needs it because of a REAL reason, not some men's health clinic trying to tell you that you need it) If you are on trt are you natural? No (unless you have a real reason, - amputation as a result to testicular cancer- just to mention one of many, then yes, you are natural because it's being used as a medication) am I on trt? No...so there might be a slight chance that I don't know what I'm talking about so if anyone wants to insult me or belittle me for my lack of knowledge go ahead I don't take myself too seriously anyways

 

[MrKleen73]

In others, as I said, nbody has really "answered" it. Public ignorance isn't really an answer...its a perception but nobody can answer why, scientifically one is banned and on is not. Thats what I am looking for.




Hence my sarcasm in posting "logic".







Exaclty my point...so the concept of what a natural athlete is....is relevant...which then leads to question WHAT they believe is natural and the house of cards will fall. Their explanations are not based on science whatsoever, but percetion and ignorance. Their rules are based on that so questioning their rules is questioning their interpreation of what is "natural". Thats how it is extremely relevant.

On #1 I figured that was what you are looking for. That is why I stated you are not going to find that answer. It does not exist. The real answer for "Why" though is that it is that public ignorance is the reason for it. Is that an acceptable reason? No not really, but it is the driving factor in how they are seen completely different, and one is acceptable and the other isn't.

Ok my stance is going on hrt isnt naturally elevating test levels. Also my stace is organization have rules. Idc whats there justification for them. If i ask for a justification for every single AM rule no matter what the justification is my job is 2 comply or leave. Thats how I powerlifted. Thats how I competed. - over and out

Fair enough, pretty cut and dry. I agree that I definitely benefit from my TRT, I am running at around 900-1000 total. I also don't consider myself natty by the purest form of the word. Of course neither could you. Your extracts are removed through a scientific process, purified and standardized to levels that could not realistically be obtained through eating the natural sources they come from. That is a supranatural level of SHGB blockers that unnaturally increase free test to supraphysiological levels. I can say that my TRT is no more intense than running a bottle of one of your old test boosters I ran. The free test levels acheived while on them are easily comparable to mine right now on TRT. We can nitpick the concept of natural to the point anyone taking ANY supplement that is extracted in higher concentrations than the natural food source is no longer natural.

I am not being argumentative here, just pointing out that the "Natural" classification is purely based off of someones interpretation of what that means.

I also agree that when rules are in place you have to abide by them. However there need to be rules for exclusions on certain things. I am sorry but a golfer with 78 test levels bumping himself back up to 600 is not an unfair advantage. Especially since most of the other guys in plaid pants can probably get on TRTtoo and the ones who don't could take some testofen, divanil, fenugreek or some other plant that binds to the SHGB and increases free test also. I think there should be compliance to the rules but there should also be a legitimate way to set exceptions to the rules based on a legitimate medical condition.

Then the concept of what natural is came up since it does have conflicting definitions to some...

Precisely, the concept of natural is far too open to interpretation, and the definition in the sports arena has NOTHING to do with the true definition of natural which is something that has not been altered from it's natural state. However the biggest issue with this thread is that people all have a definition of natty and are not open to other ideas on it.

 

[fueledpassion]

I think the underlying issue in our society (which includes this board) is that we try to inevitably include the idea of "fairness" with "natural". These two ideas are mutually exclusive to one another. HRT isn't "natural" yet it can bring your T to a "natural level". Remember, hormone levels have both a high AND A LOW level, meaning that anything outside of those levels by any significant degree could be coined as "unnatural".

On to my next point regarding fairness. Is HRT fair? Well, in a 70+ age class bodybuilding competition, running 150-200mg/wk of T probably isn't fair for the other guys assuming they are without the HRT. Running 150-200mg of T to bring a 30 year old to a normal range of 800 on the scale - yes. In any sport, that should be acceptable as there are plenty of people born with much higher T levels than that even without the exogenous help.

So when you ask is HRT natural? That depends on your definition of natural. Objectively, we use the word natural to explain something that could be achieved with an unaltered body, in which case, HRT easily falls into this definition. Subjectively, we use the word natural to distinguish from the "cheaters", which is completely hypocritical, IMO. Consuming 20g of creatine monohydrate a day is not something that is likely to be achieved naturally or safely through food consumption, so take that as an example. The door swings both ways.

 

[JeremyNG25]

Lol did you just compare taking creatine with injecting synthetic testosterone?

 

[JeremyNG25]

On #1 I figured that was what you are looking for. That is why I stated you are not going to find that answer. It does not exist. The real answer for "Why" though is that it is that public ignorance is the reason for it. Is that an acceptable reason? No not really, but it is the driving factor in how they are seen completely different, and one is acceptable and the other isn't.



Fair enough, pretty cut and dry. I agree that I definitely benefit from my TRT, I am running at around 900-1000 total. I also don't consider myself natty by the purest form of the word. Of course neither could you. Your extracts are removed through a scientific process, purified and standardized to levels that could not realistically be obtained through eating the natural sources they come from. That is a supranatural level of SHGB blockers that unnaturally increase free test to supraphysiological levels. I can say that my TRT is no more intense than running a bottle of one of your old test boosters I ran. The free test levels acheived while on them are easily comparable to mine right now on TRT. We can nitpick the concept of natural to the point anyone taking ANY supplement that is extracted in higher concentrations than the natural food source is no longer natural.

I am not being argumentative here, just pointing out that the "Natural" classification is purely based off of someones interpretation of what that means.

I also agree that when rules are in place you have to abide by them. However there need to be rules for exclusions on certain things. I am sorry but a golfer with 78 test levels bumping himself back up to 600 is not an unfair advantage. Especially since most of the other guys in plaid pants can probably get on TRTtoo and the ones who don't could take some testofen, divanil, fenugreek or some other plant that binds to the SHGB and increases free test also. I think there should be compliance to the rules but there should also be a legitimate way to set exceptions to the rules based on a legitimate medical condition.


Precisely, the concept of natural is far too open to interpretation, and the definition in the sports arena has NOTHING to do with the true definition of natural which is something that has not been altered from it's natural state. However the biggest issue with this thread is that people all have a definition of natty and are not open to other ideas on it.

You just compared taking a natty test booster as being comparable to you injecting synthetic testosterone. You my friend win the award for most delusional comment in this thread. Goodbye lol. You guys just don't want to give credit where credit is due. Credit to the drugs. I'm sure TRT has had a significant impact on your life. I'm also sure that most of you guys who are on TRT are often using other compounds and don't have to do s PCT so I'm still not sure how this applies to you. Here's the thing. If you give credit to the drugs it takes away from your hard work but the truth is that AAS work and they work well. If you go from a 220 mg/dl test level to 1000 and I'm naturally stuck at 400 how the **** are you natural. You guys like to say bull**** like " oh you drink coffee so you're not natural" please do everyone a favor and stfu. I don't care who you are if you inject testosterone or a drug similar in nature to testosterone into your body that's not natural under any circumstance. Getting sick and tired of you guys taking away from The hard work of True Naturals

 

[Jiigzz]

You just compared taking a natty test booster as being comparable to you injecting synthetic testosterone. You my friend win the award for most delusional comment in this thread. Goodbye lol. You guys just don't want to give credit where credit is due. Credit to the drugs. I'm sure TRT has had a significant impact on your life. I'm also sure that most of you guys who are on TRT are often using other compounds and don't have to do s PCT so I'm still not sure how this applies to you. Here's the thing. If you give credit to the drugs it takes away from your hard work but the truth is that AAS work and they work well. If you go from a 220 mg/dl test level to 1000 and I'm naturally stuck at 400 how the **** are you natural. You guys like to say bull**** like " oh you drink coffee so you're not natural" please do everyone a favor and stfu. I don't care who you are if you inject testosterone or a drug similar in nature to testosterone into your body that's not natural under any circumstance. Getting sick and tired of you guys taking away from The hard work of True Naturals

Therein lies a difference between clinically low T and using HRT to reach normality and injecting testosterone for the purpose of building muscle.

I lay an extreme hypothetical for you - a person naturally producing 50mg/dl and another naturally producing 900mg/dl.

One has a competitive advantage from the offset - if the rules are there to keep things level, why do they restrict those who simply cannot produce enough?

 

[Ljohnson]

This was the discussion I had. I said if you are restoring normal levels, its still natural. The other guy said no....no matter what, if you add anything its not considered natural anymore. He uses the term "natural" to mean whatever you naturally are and for older men, thats lower test. If was an interesting convo...

Yeah its kind of one of those things where if you're below levels than you would use HRT anyway and not just for lifting. But if you're at the average and just using it to increase your lifts then I'd say its not natural.

 

[fueledpassion]

I compared the similarities in how neither is something that can be achieved without going outside of the "natural" process. You clearly missed the point.

Don't be divisive and controversial. You know good and well I wasn't comparing the results of creatine vs. steroids. Read it carefully, I will not spoon feed my point all the way down someone's throat.

"Subjectively, we use the word natural to distinguish from the "cheaters", which is completely hypocritical, IMO. Consuming 20g of creatine monohydrate a day is not something that is likely to be achieved naturally or safely through food consumption, so take that as an example."

The point was to show the hypocrisy in picking and choosing which is "ok" and still considered "fair" and which is not. The example was used to talk about the ideology of fairness and hypocrisy, not to compare the two pharmacologically.

 

[fueledpassion]

Therein lies a difference between clinically low T and using HRT to reach normality and injecting testosterone for the purpose of building muscle.

I lay an extreme hypothetical for you - a person naturally producing 50mg/dl and another naturally producing 900mg/dl.

One has a competitive advantage from the offset - if the rules are there to keep things level, why do they restrict those who simply cannot produce enough?

Finally, someone who understands that the whole idea of "fairness" has never really been fair at all. The most unfair thing in sports and athletics today is the wide variation in genetic potential.

This all goes back to my point that we need to separate the idea of "natural" from "fair". If you do that, then you can see that being fair is simply impossible to achieve, even if 100% natty.

 

[Johnston]

How do you legislate "fair" though... it's impossible. Someone will always have an advantage, whether that being genetics, supplements (legal), training, even their upbringing and psychological make-up. Hell, you could even argue someone seeing a Sports Psychologist before a race gives him an unfair advantage. There's so many variables here. We have deemed steroids illegal... fair enough, but if they were not and all athletes took them, then it would be a non-issue. We'd just be where we are now... only with another variable in the mix.

You want a completely level playing field? Genetically breed cloned athletes in special facility on the moon. They will all be genetically identical. They will all receive identical training regimens, the same diet, supplements, and no interaction with anyone but their trainers, all equally apportioned. There's your level playing field.

 

[MrKleen73]

You just compared taking a natty test booster as being comparable to you injecting synthetic testosterone. You my friend win the award for most delusional comment in this thread. Goodbye lol. You guys just don't want to give credit where credit is due. Credit to the drugs. I'm sure TRT has had a significant impact on your life. I'm also sure that most of you guys who are on TRT are often using other compounds and don't have to do s PCT so I'm still not sure how this applies to you. Here's the thing. If you give credit to the drugs it takes away from your hard work but the truth is that AAS work and they work well. If you go from a 220 mg/dl test level to 1000 and I'm naturally stuck at 400 how the **** are you natural. You guys like to say bull**** like " oh you drink coffee so you're not natural" please do everyone a favor and stfu. I don't care who you are if you inject testosterone or a drug similar in nature to testosterone into your body that's not natural under any circumstance. Getting sick and tired of you guys taking away from The hard work of True Naturals

First I am going to take the tone of a JERK so I can match yours. Not calling you one just your tone dictates a strong response since you think you have a right to reprimand me while not being able to comprehend everything your read...

1. I NEVER SAID I AM NATURAL, I SAID I WAS NOT
2. I STATED I DIDN'T THINK THAT SYNTHETIC TESTOSTERONE WAS NATURAL
3. I HAVE SPOKEN OPENLY ON BOTH SIDES OF THIS SO AGAIN
4. I DID SAY I WAS GETTING A BENEFIT. I ACTUALLY CALLED MYSELF AND ANYONE ON HRT SUPERNATURAL!!!!

I SAID THAT IT WAS NO MORE NATURAL TO TAKE AN HERBAL EXTRACT IN A HIGHER DOSE THAN WHAT COULD NATURALLY BE OBTAINED THROUGH FOOD IS UNNATURAL. IT ISN'T IT REQUIRES A CHEMICAL PROCESS TO EXTRACT IT AT THOSE HIGH DOSES SO IT IS INDEED NOT NATURAL.

FOR ALL OF THESE REASONS AND INACCURACIES YOU SIR CAN STFU!

NO ONE IS TRYING TO TAKE AWAY FROM YOUR HARD WORK. NOTHING CAN TAKE AWAY FROM YOUR HARD WORK. However you have the ability to make yourself look like an ass like you did here. I would suggest you go read every post I made in this thread again before you try to come at me with your half baked I skimmed one post and thought I knew the temperature of an entire thread bull crap. You came at me for things I did not say or how you unsuccessfully interpreted things that were. Please don't come back and say that you did because I would rather think you an ass than not intelligent enough to comprehend the posts.