Natty Test Boosting Supps that actually work

[Danes]

But if you look at LOSS of muscle loss in aging men, it is.

Yes that is something different and I didnt directly mentioned that in my post but I did mentioned that 40% increase would have difference in long term (decreased T levels in aged men which lead to muscle loss).
Decreased levels by 40% would lead to muscle loss (maybe not dramaticaly fast but year after year). So if you add 40% , muscle loss would deff be different

 

[Admin]

Yes that is something different and I didnt directly mentioned that in my post but I did mentioned that 40% increase would have difference in long term (decreased T levels in aged men which lead to muscle loss).
Decreased levels by 40% would lead to muscle loss (maybe not dramaticaly fast but year after year). So if you add 40% , muscle loss would deff be different

That was sort of my point. If it works one way, its probably going to work the opposite, but its tough to study because you are talking long term.

 

[thebigt]

Our bodies are complicated and it is actually not so easy lets say boost T levels 20-30% and it will provide better gains. Its not working that way.

Lets take TRT/Steroids as example. Its not just increasing Testosterone/DHT/Binding to AR levels.It would increase MPS,nitrogen retention, glycogen retention etc..

On other hand, We have natty T boosters (no matter if its amino acid,plant,herb etc).
In many animal studies they provide amazing results. (Some of them)dont just increase T levels sky high but actually does have effect on AR ,have pro anabolic properties and much more. Does it mean that works the same in humans ? Not at all. Look at Ecdysterone (it is not a t booster but using it as example). In rats, its stronger and better than Dianabol (pro Anabolic). In humans it can be anabolic but it is an adaptogen ingredient and not heavy pro anabolic like in rats.

I mean we all can have benefits from increased T levels even if it is just 20%.
20% could actually lead to better sleep, more energy, well being etc. What happens when you sleep better, feel better and have more energy? It can lead to Indirectly gains
-Feeling better=you have better appetite= you eat more=more gains.
-More energy=hitting gym harder=more strength/size (if diet is in check)
-Sleeping better=better recovery=optimalizing hormones=more energy and much more (that leads to more gains).

I really dont think 20% increase of T in guys who have normal levels would directly lead to more gains due to 20% increase of T.
BUT, lets say we have a T booster which can increase T levels 40%. the normal values are between 9-28 nmol/L (just an example). and one guy have 8 nmol/L.
Increasing 40% means the new value would be 11.2 nmol/L. Not only is it more healthy value (in normal range), but I bet this guy would feel better too. Better sleep, better libido, possibly less depressed (if he is depressed at all) and much more.
I dont think 40% would directly lead to more strength and size gains after just 2 months but it would make a difference years after years (longer period/long term).it would be a combination most of indirectly gains of T Booster and some % due to increased T levels (but like said. This means year after year)

Those who get 10lbs after 1-2 months while on T booster is NOT due to increased T . We are talking about Calorie Surplus! (It is generaly for most of products)

Sorry for all bad spelling. I am writing with my phone

like i have said before...anyone who thinks 'good' test boosters are worthless is full of crap!!!

 

[Danes]

That was sort of my point. If it works one way, its probably going to work the opposite, but its tough to study because you are talking long term.

I know exactly what you mean.
Personaly, i am huge fan of Quality TA.
not only does it give me sick boner, feeling good on it, but it gives me energy too. The way TA is working, increased energy is common thing. TA is not called Malaysian Ginseng for nothing

 

[Danes]

like i have said before...anyone who thinks 'good' test boosters are worthless is full of crap!!!

They are good to have my friend.totaly agree.
But it seems like many users are expecting solid mass/size and strength of Natty T booster even after 4 weeks. That will not happen!
And many companies should maybe change the way they are marketing those products too

 

[thebigt]

They are good to have my friend.totaly agree.
But it seems like many users are expecting solid mass/size and strength of Natty T booster even after 4 weeks. That will not happen!
And many companies should maybe change the way they are marketing those products too

i said in post #82 that performance enhancers would be a better classification, imo!!! mass/size and strength are quite possibly a indirect effect of test boosters due to increased appetite and more motivation/aggression, some even play a role in recovery which also could help with gains!!!

 

[Danes]

i said in post #82 that performance enhancers would be a better classification, imo!!! mass/size and strength are quite possibly a indirect effect of test boosters due to increased appetite and more motivation/aggression, some even play a role in recovery which also could help with gains!!!

Yes, your post is very good !
People are expecting to much of T boosters. Some actually think it will provide PH/DS gains.

 

[JudoJosh]

I know exactly what you mean.
Personaly, i am huge fan of Quality TA.
not only does it give me sick boner, feeling good on it, but it gives me energy too. The way TA is working, increased energy is common thing. TA is not called Malaysian Ginseng for nothing

Tongkat Ali has potential, I would like to see some follow up studies done and some of the presentations published, but the mechanisim is plausible in my opinion. I wrote a break down article of it not too long ago for a website. Was actually the first time I looked into it. The potential is there IMO

 

[Danes]

Tongkat Ali has potential, I would like to see some follow up studies done and some of the presentations published, but the mechanisim is pla5usible in my opinion. I wrote a break down article of it not too long ago for a website. Was actually the first time I looked into it. The potential is there IMO

Honestly, of all those Test boosting ingredients which has been on the marked, TA is deff one of the most potencial one.
The amazing compounds in TA have shown AI/SERM properties, increased Semen,increased T And not to mention other health benefits. I totaly agree. The potencial is there!

 

[thebigt]

Honestly, of all those Test boosting ingredients which has been on the marked, TA is deff one of the most potencial one.
The amazing compounds in TA have shown AI/SERM properties, increased Semen,increased T And not to mention other health benefits. I totaly agree. The potencial is there!

ta along with bulbine/fadogia/hgw[icariin]/macuna/dhea/preg, a few of my favorites!!! hell, i even enjoy trib!!!

 

[Danes]

ta along with bulbine/fadogia/hgw[icariin]/macuna/dhea/preg, a few of my favorites!!! hell, i even enjoy trib!!!

You Libido-Monster Lol!!!!
i mean Protodioscin and Protogracillin (found in Tribulus and some other plants) have a nice effect in humans

 

[Danes]

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21671978

The love of TA

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Your post.

I have 1 study, you have zero. There may be more, but I'm not *that* into the debate. I've spent my money on all the top notch herbals and seen nothing over and above natural progression. Unlike 8 weeks of 1-Andro. For about the same cash outlay.

If not even low dose 'King of all Hormones' at less than 300mg/Week can increase LBM/Strength over 12-20 weeks, then no plant will. The fact that you can't see this as relevant to the discussion, is as bad as what you say I exhibit. I guess we both have confirmation bias. This is where your "over the looooooong period of time" argument comes in. So ---->

What does the labeling on the back of this, or any booster say? Something like :"For best results, use consecutively for 8 weeks (2 bottles usually, at what, 40,50, 60 bucks each?) and then take a 4 week break" ? So, I'm asking you, what are these "best results" going to be? What can I expect after spending $100 on plants, after those 8 weeks? IMO, if you are honest, after criticizing the time period of my supplied study, your answer should be "nothing it'll take a while". But that's just my opinion.

Or are you suggesting that these plants should be used as a rich man's TRT? Not positive, but I think actual Test is cheaper. I mean, what did JudoJosh's links say? 3 years (of actual Test, not plants) at physiological doses nets you 4.4 lbs of muscle? How much does 3 years worth of JackSwole 12000 Xtreme cost? And that's assuming plants = IM Injected actual Testosterone, which I dare any one to say.

 

[Admin]

I have 1 study, you have zero.

And it was irrelevant, so you really have zero.

If not even low dose 'King of all Hormones' at less than 300mg/Week can increase LBM/Strength over 12-20 weeks, then no plant will. The fact that you can't see this as relevant to the discussion, is as bad as what you say I exhibit. I guess we both have confirmation bias. This is where your "over the looooooong period of time" argument comes in. So ---->

No, I just understand there is a difference between injectable and natural. You seem to think its the same and can correlate results from one to another.

And JudoJosh posted a study where 100mg increases muscle mass...and also another one with a patch.....

The fact that you keep stating its a plant, as if that has any relevance shows your thought process. Well, its a plant....it can't work. Ok. What else more do we have to discuss?

What does the labeling on the back of this, or any booster say? Something like :"For best results, use consecutively for 8 weeks (2 bottles usually, at what, 40,50, 60 bucks each?) and then take a 4 week break" ? So, I'm asking you, what are these "best results" going to be? What can I expect after spending $100 on plants, after those 8 weeks? IMO, if you are honest, after criticizing the time period of my supplied study, your answer should be "nothing it'll take a while". But that's just my opinion.

As many people said... mood, intensity, etc...increased muscle mass? Tough to tell since the normal rate of muscle growth is extremely small even in normal conditions. Plus I'm not concerned whats said on the bottle...

Or are you suggesting that these plants should be used as a rich man's TRT? Not positive, but I think actual Test is cheaper. I mean, what did JudoJosh's links say? 3 years (of actual Test, not plants) at physiological doses nets you 4.4 lbs of muscle? How much does 3 years worth of JackSwole 12000 Xtreme cost? And that's assuming plants = IM Injected actual Testosterone, which I dare any one to say.

Not at all, but if the resulting loss of testosterone in aging men is decreased muscle mass, then trying to keep it at normal or higher levels could mitigate that loss a bit. Take a man that is 42 and has had decreasing testosterone for 10 years and raise it to normal or even higher than his previous baseline, theoretically I believe it WILL help. Is it proven? Of course not...or we wouldn't be having this discussion. Not everyone wants to go on TRT for life and inject each week. Its a life altering thing and not many men at 30-35-40 are ready to do that. The alternative is maybe find something that can help mitigate that drop in test which DOES cause a loss of muscle mass over time. And for the 104th time, I haven't equated injectable vs natural. I think I've gone out of my way to make that difference.

You won't believe anything until there a double blind controlled study on said herbs. Thats fine. Some don't and try to look past whats already published to explore the possibilities. You can easily remedy your situation by simply not buying them. Its that simple....but nobody in this thread is making statements that they work all the time for anyone. You are the one making the absolute statement they won't work, ever..for anyone. I simply believe the data doesn't prove either argument.

 

[thebigt]

And it was irrelevant, so you really have zero.



No, I just understand there is a difference between injectable and natural. You seem to think its the same and can correlate results from one to another.

And JudoJosh posted a study where 100mg increases muscle mass...and also another one with a patch.....

The fact that you keep stating its a plant, as if that has any relevance shows your thought process. Well, its a plant....it can't work. Ok. What else more do we have to discuss?



As many people said... mood, intensity, etc...increased muscle mass? Tough to tell since the normal rate of muscle growth is extremely small even in normal conditions. Plus I'm not concerned whats said on the bottle...



Not at all, but if the resulting loss of testosterone in aging men is decreased muscle mass, then trying to keep it at normal or higher levels could mitigate that loss a bit. Take a man that is 42 and has had decreasing testosterone for 10 years and raise it to normal or even higher than his previous baseline, theoretically I believe it WILL help. Is it proven? Of course not...or we wouldn't be having this discussion. Not everyone wants to go on TRT for life and inject each week. Its a life altering thing and not many men at 30-35-40 are ready to do that. The alternative is maybe find something that can help mitigate that drop in test which DOES cause a loss of muscle mass over time. And for the 104th time, I haven't equated injectable vs natural. I think I've gone out of my way to make that difference.

You won't believe anything until there a double blind controlled study on said herbs. Thats fine. Some don't and try to look past whats already published to explore the possibilities. You can easily remedy your situation by simply not buying them. Its that simple....but nobody in this thread is making statements that they work all the time for anyone. You are the one making the absolute statement they won't work, ever..for anyone. I simply believe the data doesn't prove either argument.

he is a lost cause...he has said before that supps have a placebo effect-if you want it to work it works...

well he has an anti-placebo effect, he is convinced it won't work...so it won't!!!

 

[Admin]

He disagrees, which is fine.

 

[thebigt]

He disagrees, which is fine.

lol...he might as well stand in front of a wedding chapel in vegas waving statistics showing marriage is worthless and won't work!!!!

statistics don't always tell the whole story, imo!!!

 

[Danes]

Take a man that is 42 and has had decreasing testosterone for 10 years and raise it to normal or even higher than his previous baseline, theoretically I believe it WILL help. Is it proven? Of course not...or we wouldn't be having this discussion. Not everyone wants to go on TRT for life and inject each week. Its a life altering thing and not many men at 30-35-40 are ready to do that. The alternative is maybe find something that can help mitigate that drop in test which DOES cause a loss of muscle mass over time. And for the 104th time, I haven't equated injectable vs natural. I think I've gone out of my way to make that difference.

Good points!
I do totaly understad why The_Old_Guy is sceptical. Some companies are marketing T boosters to be potent like Injecting T. Claiming to add musclemass and strength to users which is just marketing and has nothing to do with the reality.
Some people eat like horses and follow a good trainingprogram 8 weeks on a natty T booster and with a huge calorie surplus they add even 20lbs. Is that weight gain due to the product? Not at all!
As I shown earlier, TA is actually working in people with hypogonadism and that is great. More studies should be done (thinking of different doses, dose timing etc).

Good discussion anyway

 

[thebigt]

Good points!

Some people eat like horses and follow a good trainingprogram 8 weeks on a natty T booster and with a huge calorie surplus they add even 20lbs. Is that weight gain due to the product? Not at all!

consider the point that maybe they wouldn't of ate like horses and followed a good training program were it not for the product!!!

 

[Danes]

consider the point that maybe they wouldn't of ate like horses and followed a good training program were it not for the product!!!

Ofcourse. The product at least motivated them

 

[thebigt]

Ofcourse. The product at least motivated them

exactly!!!
take for example a study done on a product or ingredient...there is a strict regimen that is to be followed and usually a stipend for completing the full term of study-if the subject does not complete full term of study that stipend is not issued....so the subject is motivated to fulfill the terms of the study. in this case there may be little difference in gains so the study concludes that the product didn't deliver the desired effects...

now we take a guy who is dealing with life's issues such as stress, aches and pains and the other crap that life might throw at a person, without that carrot of a stipend dangling in front of him he might be tempted to miss workouts or just plain slack off....this is the kind of stuff that isn't measured in studies, imo!!!

 

[Danes]

exactly!!!
take for example a study done on a product or ingredient...there is a strict regimen that is to be followed and usually a stipend for completing the full term of study-if the subject does not complete full term of study that stipend is not issued....so the subject is motivated to fulfill the terms of the study. in this case there may be little difference in gains so the study concludes that the product didn't deliver the desired effects...

now we take a guy who is dealing with life's issues such as stress, aches and pains and the other crap that life might throw at a person, without that carrot of a stipend dangling in front of him he might be tempted to miss workouts or just plain slack off....this is the kind of stuff that isn't measured in studies, imo!!!

Yea i know exactly what you mean

 

[thebigt]

Yea i know exactly what you mean

only a fool would label increased libido/mood/motivation/aggression as worthless, imo!!! you aren't going to gain unless you train...and eat!!!

speaking only for myself but test boosters also increase my appetite...so increased appetite and more motivation to train--anyone have a clue what those might lead to???

 

[Danes]

only a fool would label increased libido/mood/motivation/aggression as worthless, imo!!! you aren't going to gain unless you train...and eat!!!

speaking only for myself but test boosters also increase my appetite...so increased appetite and more motivation to train--anyone have a clue what those might lead to???

I mean , and as I allways said, for youger guys T boosters could lead to indirectly gains getting more energy, increaswd libido, increased appetite (some herbs,plants which has T boosting properties can stimulate appetite too).
For older guys, a good T booster can like Admin (biggest gangster on this Site) help preventing muscle loss. Lets say a good dose of TA (containing quassinoids such as 13α,21-Dihydroeurycomanone and Eurycomanone,Eurypeptides and Canthin-6-one metabolites such as 9-hydroxycanthin-6-one)could increase T levels 40% (I believe people with hypogonadism could increase even more). And if TA get their values into normal range, it would help with muscle loss. Muscle loss is worse with low T levels.

But we shall not forget, its not all about T levels. My self had 8.9 nmol/L long period and I was gaining mass pretty good. While My friend who has 27nmol/L and even eating pretty good was gaining pretty slow..

 

[chedapalooza]

BPS sustain alpha...it has stood the test of time!

This right here Invalid Link Removed

 

[Segansational]

Tongkat Ali has potential, I would like to see some follow up studies done and some of the presentations published, but the mechanisim is plausible in my opinion. I wrote a break down article of it not too long ago for a website. Was actually the first time I looked into it. The potential is there IMO

Honestly, of all those Test boosting ingredients which has been on the marked, TA is deff one of the most potencial one.
The amazing compounds in TA have shown AI/SERM properties, increased Semen,increased T And not to mention other health benefits. I totaly agree. The potencial is there!

Tongkat ali probably has the largest evidence to support it, but remember that just about all of those studies are with the patented, standardized version - LJ100, not a generic extract.

 

[thebigt]

Tongkat ali probably has the largest evidence to support it, but remember that just about all of those studies are with the patented, standardized version - LJ100, not a generic extract.

tonvara

 

[ELROCK]

only a fool would label increased libido/mood/motivation/aggression as worthless, imo!!! you aren't going to gain unless you train...and eat!!!

speaking only for myself but test boosters also increase my appetite...so increased appetite and more motivation to train--anyone have a clue what those might lead to???

^Yup!

 

[The_Old_Guy]

only a fool would label increased libido/mood/motivation/aggression as worthless, imo!!! you aren't going to gain unless you train...and eat!!!

speaking only for myself but test boosters also increase my appetite...so increased appetite and more motivation to train--anyone have a clue what those might lead to???

Where did I say the above? Let's recap:

Someone else other than myself, said:

Nothing OTC will increase endogenous testosterone production to a point that will assist with muscle growth. A non-hypogonadic individual that increase testosterone 10, 20, 30%, etc won't notice increased muscle growth. So, even though they may be "working", what will you truly be noticing?

I agreed and provided the data that IM injections of Testosterone that kept the individuals within the physiological range, did not lead to strength/size gains. Not until supraphysiological doses of at least 300mg/Week were taken, were gains seen. That was deemed irrelevant, so I have recently signed up for study relevancy class.

I didn't equate plants = Test (That would be absurd, I clearly said I think all they are only good for sex and fat loss), and I didn't say libido/mood/aggression/motivation is worthless. I said physiological range changes won't lead to strength or size. That's it.

I guess if one needs a "T-Booster" to get motivated - have at it. I am rarely unmotivated, but I prefer Caffeine and Ephedrine for "motivation". Same goes for the rest of that list... but if they help you, it's America, go for it.

Is anyone unclear on where either I or Admin/thebigt stand on the subject? We good? Cuz I got's more awesome threads to read, and only so many hours in the day. We disagree, I'm good with that. See ya on the next one

 

[thebigt]

Where did I say the above? Let's recap:

Someone else other than myself, said:



I agreed and provided the data that IM injections of Testosterone that kept the individuals within the physiological range, did not lead to strength/size gains. Not until supraphysiological doses of at least 300mg/Week were taken, were gains seen. That was deemed irrelevant, so I have recently signed up for study relevancy class.

I didn't equate plants = Test (That would be absurd, I clearly said I think all they are only good for sex and fat loss), and I didn't say libido/mood/aggression/motivation is worthless. I said physiological range changes won't lead to strength or size. That's it.

I guess if one needs a "T-Booster" to get motivated - have at it. I am rarely unmotivated, but I prefer Caffeine and Ephedrine for "motivation". Same goes for the rest of that list... but if they help you, it's America, go for it.

Is anyone unclear on where either I or Admin/thebigt stand on the subject? We good? Cuz I got's more awesome threads to read, and only so many hours in the day. We disagree, I'm good with that. See ya on the next one

i don't recall saying old guy said that by name, i said only an idiot.

and i agree we will just agree to disagree and move on!!!

 

[jm9]

Using test boosting don't give you any side effects??

 

[Danes]

Using test boosting don't give you any side effects??

It really depend on which ingredients are used. Some of those ingredients can make you sleep bad, giving you stomach issues . It really depend on the product.

If you get any sides it is due to the dose or the bad reaction to an ingredient/ingredients