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I'm on Phosphatidic acid Ya'll

muscleupcrohn said:
Don't hold your breath. I've gotten into it with the Fugitive on another forum multiple times and I've never gotten anything substantial. The way I, and many others see it, the benefits of a concentrated PA supplement over gensules are convenience, less chance of upset stomach, and less calories and fat. Effectiveness wise, if you take both consistently and don't get an upset stomach, there really shouldn't be a difference.

Also, a question that's been asked before that hasn't been answered is how does a 1g blend contain 750mg PA, and around 200mg Niagen (mentioned by reps on another forum), unless the Activator PA used in King is nearly 100% PA, which seems rather unlikely, considering that Cutler reps have said it's cheaper than Mediator, which is 50% PA. I'd imagine that a ~90% PA extract would be significantly more expensive than a 50% extract, although I could be wrong. I also can't find any info on Activator. I'd like to see that as well.
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What is it exactly your looking for? I already explained (numerous times) until Activator releases the amount of PA there's nothing I can do

I've ran King and Fearn, King is definitely the better option. Stomach discomfort would be the first of my complaints. The muscle fullness and strength increase were minimal vs King. I'm sure you noticed this as well
 
TheFugitive said:
I've ran King and Fearn, King is definitely the better option. Stomach discomfort would be the first of my complaints. The muscle fullness and strength increase were minimal vs King. I'm sure you noticed this as well
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Very strange.
All of my friends, me and guys on forums got more strength,size,increased appetite,musclefullness with soy lecithin than with KING .(which is totaly logical due to higher PA dose).
The only thing KING could add more is energy from Niagen.
But ofcourse, a company rep is allways deffending his brand? ;)
 
TheFugitive said:
What is it exactly your looking for? I already explained (numerous times) until Activator releases the amount of PA there's nothing I can do

I've ran King and Fearn, King is definitely the better option. Stomach discomfort would be the first of my complaints. The muscle fullness and strength increase were minimal vs King. I'm sure you noticed this as well
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If Activator hasn't released the amount of PA, how can you assure me it has 750mg? Unless there's an error on the label, or Activator is nearly 100% PA, I don't see things adding up quite right. I agree with you 100% that King is more comvenient and less likely to upset your stomach than the granules. That's what it has going for it. As for muscle fullness and strength, I'd say that you prefer King due to a lack of side effects; are you going to get a good workout feeling like bloated and like crap? Either that or you're just repping.

I have an issue with you saying that PA from King is somehow inherrenrly superior in terms of muscle fullness and strength gains than an equal, or even a much greater, amount of PA from granules. I only see this holding true for people who either get an upset stomach from the granules, or people who don't take them consistently enough, which I have done in the past.

I just don't see how you can be so adamant that 750mg PA, hopefully, from King will lead to better gains in strength and LBM than >1.5g PA from the granules, assuming no stomach upset. When asked what leads you to believe that concentrated PA is more effective than less concentrated PA, besides likelyhood of stomach upset, you post up stock photos and clip art that proves nothing except that it mixes clearer and you need less to get the same amount. I fail to see how that makes it superior in terms of effectiveness. It's the same argument you made with CEE; just because it mixes better in water doesn't mean it's a superior supplement in terms of effectiveness.

My best experiences with PA have been King V1 and PhosphaMuscle, which both use 750mg Mediator PA. I have almost no doubt that once I'm done with the supply of PM I have now, 1.5g or more PA from the granules will be at least as good. The issue I've had with granules in the past is actually taking them every day, as it's a pain in the ass sometimes, since I wait for the granules to dissolve before drinking them, which takes time. Luckily someone gave me the idea to grind them, and now they mix and dissolve in water much faster.

I'm really hoping to see some info regarding Activator soon, as well as any research, if it exists, that suggests concentrated PA is more effective than non-concentrated PA at the same or a lesser dose. I am planning on having a back up supply of a concentrated PA supplement even when I'm using the granules for convenience, and I'm pretty sure King will be priced better than PhosphaMuscle, but does that mean anything if I don't know how much PA is in it, or anything about the Activator source it comes from?
 
muscleupcrohn said:
If Activator hasn't released the amount of PA, how can you assure me it has 750mg? Unless there's an error on the label, or Activator is nearly 100% PA, I don't see things adding up quite right. I agree with you 100% that King is more comvenient and less likely to upset your stomach than the granules. That's what it has going for it. As for muscle fullness and strength, I'd say that you prefer King due to a lack of side effects; are you going to get a good workout feeling like bloated and like crap? Either that or you're just repping.

I have an issue with you saying that PA from King is somehow inherrenrly superior in terms of muscle fullness and strength gains than an equal, or even a much greater, amount of PA from granules. I only see this holding true for people who either get an upset stomach from the granules, or people who don't take them consistently enough, which I have done in the past.

I just don't see how you can be so adamant that 750mg PA, hopefully, from King will lead to better gains in strength and LBM than >1.5g PA from the granules, assuming no stomach upset. When asked what leads you to believe that concentrated PA is more effective than less concentrated PA, besides likelyhood of stomach upset, you post up stock photos and clip art that proves nothing except that it mixes clearer and you need less to get the same amount. I fail to see how that makes it superior in terms of effectiveness. It's the same argument you made with CEE; just because it mixes better in water doesn't mean it's a superior supplement in terms of effectiveness.

My best experiences with PA have been King V1 and PhosphaMuscle, which both use 750mg Mediator PA. I have almost no doubt that once I'm done with the supply of PM I have now, 1.5g or more PA from the granules will be at least as good. The issue I've had with granules in the past is actually taking them every day, as it's a pain in the ass sometimes, since I wait for the granules to dissolve before drinking them, which takes time. Luckily someone gave me the idea to grind them, and now they mix and dissolve in water much faster.

I'm really hoping to see some info regarding Activator soon, as well as any research, if it exists, that suggests concentrated PA is more effective than non-concentrated PA at the same or a lesser dose. I am planning on having a back up supply of a concentrated PA supplement even when I'm using the granules for convenience, and I'm pretty sure King will be priced better than PhosphaMuscle, but does that mean anything if I don't know how much PA is in it, or anything about the Activator source it comes from?
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I am not bashing KING but we need more info.

3 caps of KING v2 is 1G Of blend
GLYCOPROTEIN MUSCLE GROWTH BLEND:Activator™ (Phosphatidic Acid {Lysophosphatidic Acid, Phosphatidylserine, Phosphatidylcholine, Phosphatidylethanolamine, Phosphotidylinositiol})
Niagen™ (as Nicotinamide riboside).

MediaTOR is 50% soy enriched PA . That means from if its 1.5g in 3 caps, 750mg is PA.

There is no CHANCE in this world that activator is more than 50% soy enriched PA. I bet its not more than 10-20% .
And even if its 50%, it is just 500mg PA from 1g blend.

If I was interessed in Niagen, KING would be my choice. If I am interessed PA caps, I would go for mediaTOR because you know what you are getting TBH.
 
Ok, time out :)

I saw bb.com listed Phospha Muscle as incoming and therefore no price yet. However, when you sort new products by price, it shows up between one that costs 59.99 and one 64.99. So the regular price would be in that range.
 
machinehead said:
Ok, time out :)

I saw bb.com listed Phospha Muscle as incoming and therefore no price yet. However, when you sort new products by price, it shows up between one that costs 59.99 and one 64.99. So the regular price would be in that range.
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That sould suck. I can't see it being the same price as Clear Muscle though. With that in mind, what is the cheapest concentrated PA product that lists the amount and contains 750mg? If PM is still the cheapest, I may just have to wait for it to go on a big sale and pick up a bottle or two as back up. That's why I want to know more about Activator, because King is much cheaper than the other PA products out now.
 
Hmmm, well it certainly appears that if the niagen is study-dosed then the PA isnt, and if the PA is study-dosed then the niagen isnt...dosnt seem you can realistically have both with a 1gm gross quantity.
 
NewAgeMayan said:
Hmmm, well it certainly appears that if the niagen is study-dosed then the PA isnt, and if the PA is study-dosed then the niagen isnt...dosnt seem you can realistically have both with a 1gm gross quantity.
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You can't. Unless Activator is nearly 100% PA, which I find incredibly unlikely.

Anyway, Danes, here's some parts of my conversation with Optima:
Every batch we purchase from our raw material producer/supplier is accompanied with a certificate of analysis providing the test results for that batch. The results must be within the parameters indicated on our specification, so in answer to your question: yes every batch is tested and the information provided on the product label (below) is based on the typical results received.
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and here's a screenshot of the PDFInvalid Link Removed
When I asked why the PA content on the PDF lists a range of 4-7%, but the label lists over 12%, this was their response:
A review of the analysis reports for recent batches confirms that the PA levels are consistently in line with our label claim.
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So here's the overall statement we should get too . " what brands of SL have the highest amount of PA in them" reps or not the majority of people here I believe are here for the cheaper SL route . Any preference ?
 
lol so a review of the analysis reports for previous batches shows they were *not* consistent with label claims? Wtf is going on over at Optima?
 
Joedoubledose said:
So here's the overall statement we should get too . " what brands of SL have the highest amount of PA in them" reps or not the majority of people here I believe are here for the cheaper SL route . Any preference ?
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I'm going to think that the PA content for lecithin granules is going to be pretty similar, assuming the same % of phospholipids (Fearn lists 97% phosphatides, and Optima's COA lists 97% phospholipids). If anything, they'll all fall within a general range. Based on one Chinese paper, they list the intermediate range as 5-9%, and the Optima PDF lists 4-7%, so I'd play it safe and assume that the PA you're taking is at least 5% PA (just to be on the safe side, unless you have a COA or proof otherwise), and dose according to that 5% number. Of course, lots of people already figured out what amount works best for them, so they can just continue going with that. I'd aim to hit at least 750mg PA assuming 5% PA, so I'd go for at least 15g of the granules to be safe, which is 2 tbsp. I just don't know how much I'd want to take at once. Perhaps 2-3 tbsp pre and 2 tbsp post workout? I know one of the studies split the dose pre and post (450mg and 300mg PA), so >750mg and 750mg should work even better, while not forcing you do down a huge amount of PA at one time. The very least I'd take per day is 15g, since that seems like it'd guarantee 750mg PA, and the least I'd take at one time would be 9g pre-workout and 6g post-workout (for 450mg and 300mg PA assuming 5%). Assuming you can fit the calories and fat into your diet, can afford it (still much cheaper than concentrated PA, even at higher doses), and don't get an upset stomach, more PA should be better.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
That should be a good amount. I'm curious what Danes has to think. He's played around with high doses, so I'm curious to see where he thinks the point of diminishing returns is with this stuff.
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Personaly I had amazing results month after month on SL. Taking break, it was difference while on and ogf TBH.

It is not nessesary to take breaks (if taking breaks,there is no need for many either).
The way PA is "working" it will be better if staying longer on it
 
Danes said:
Personaly I had amazing results month after month on SL. Taking break, it was difference while on and ogf TBH.

It is not nessesary to take breaks (if taking breaks,there is no need for many either).
The way PA is "working" it will be better if staying longer on it
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What about doses? What have you found to be the "sweet spot" or is more always better, even after 3-4 tbsp?
 
muscleupcrohn said:
What about doses? What have you found to be the "sweet spot" or is more always better, even after 3-4 tbsp?
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I was taking up to 4g. I really found it was better than 2g as example. Effects was stronger. Sick appetite increase ,volume,strength.
I am not strong guy but PA really push my strength
 
Man, I really feel bad for people that can't handle 2-4Tbs of granules. I've only used Fearn's, but to me, they taste GREAT! 45 mins PrWO, I'm like: "Aha! I get to eat something!" - just chew'em up, pop a baby asprin, and down six X-Gels :)
 
The_Old_Guy said:
Man, I really feel bad for people that can't handle 2-4Tbs of granules. I've only used Fearn's, but to me, they taste GREAT! 45 mins PrWO, I'm like: "Aha! I get to eat something!" - just chew'em up, pop a baby asprin, and down six X-Gels :)
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Yeah man them and lef taste good...vitacost not so much (yuck)
 
muscleupcrohn said:
That sould suck. I can't see it being the same price as Clear Muscle though. With that in mind, what is the cheapest concentrated PA product that lists the amount and contains 750mg? If PM is still the cheapest, I may just have to wait for it to go on a big sale and pick up a bottle or two as back up. That's why I want to know more about Activator, because King is much cheaper than the other PA products out now.
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Ok, I checked again. Now it moved between 59.99 and 54.99. If any bogo is had, it would be an ok deal. I can triple dose it 3 workouts a week and get my 6 week gym rotation done. This way I won't 'have' to include lecithin macros when cutting ;)
 
Danes said:
I was taking up to 4g. I really found it was better than 2g as example. Effects was stronger. Sick appetite increase ,volume,strength.
I am not strong guy but PA really push my strength
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Are those the amounts of PA calculated using the percent listed on by Optima?
 
Danes said:
Yes:)
I like SL taste. Mild nutty flavour, but aftertaste began to bother me
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Glad to see my basic math skills are still intact.
I've found that chasing the granules with a pre workout doesn't leave an aftertaste, but I was drinking too much water pre workout and feeling bloated and having to pee. Grinding up the granules and mixing them with a flavored supplement also seemed to taste good with no aftertaste (only done with Ergonine so far). I'll likely be doing it this way when I'm done with PhosphaMuscle. I may also take some post workout with my shake.
 
I've taken 3 tablespoons before workout and three after of soy lecithin. No bloating irratation or diarrhea at all (For about 6 months now). It doesn't seem to taper off either lIke creatine seems to. Consistently getting stronger week after week. Amazing stuff.
 
Danes, I love you brother but at this point I have to question this, is it placebo?

I've been doing this for a long long time and King is far superior in terms of results, power and endurance. I understand that I work for Cutler Nutrition but come on man, it's not even in the same league. Guys like myself, Spaz and other vets know and feel the difference. I'm guessing the stomach discomfort was the main reason for your disliking
 
No possible chance its placebo. I understand you guys have a good product. However if we are talking about PA, its 1.2g per two table spoons and seven bucks for thirty serves. The stuff works, period. Just because it doesnt have a fancy label doesnt mean it cant be true lol
 
EMPIREMIND said:
No possible chance its placebo. I understand you guys have a good product. However if we are talking about PA, its 1.2g per two table spoons and seven bucks for thirty serves. The stuff works, period. Just because it doesnt have a fancy label doesnt mean it cant be true lol
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Enjoy the pebbles :D Keep an eye out for my King/Dry promo
 
TheFugitive said:
Danes, I love you brother but at this point I have to question this, is it placebo?

I've been doing this for a long long time and King is far superior in terms of results, power and endurance. I understand that I work for Cutler Nutrition but come on man, it's not even in the same league. Guys like myself, Spaz and other vets know and feel the difference. I'm guessing the stomach discomfort was the main reason for your disliking
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You know that i love you too and I dont lie either.
But remember brother:

1: I have been working out 14 years
2: never tried anabolic steroids/PH/DS/peptides/HGH or anything hormonal etc.
3. I have almost tried everything of natural stuff and there is just few things that really worked and those things has actually been working for many people too such as my friends, people on different forums etc.
4. When I try new things, i dont stack it with 10 other things. I am running it alone 2 months to see how MY body respond to it. Strength etc.
5. I dont use stimulants either.(many people use new product with heavy stims, so they dont know for sure how they respond on the new product).

I said this many times,
PA has no absorption and bioavailability issues. Even from 2% it would not be any problem. Higher % does not mean it works better but you need to take less of it to get higher PA dose. SL is letting people getting high PA doses and that WORKS. Its amount of PA that is important and not%.
You should really read about phospholipids and even talk to a scientist who can their stuff.

KING v1 was a good product (containing mediaTOR which was 750mg PA in 3 caps).
KING v2 is something I really dont trust.
The blend cant contain enough PA.
I know many who felt NOTHING from KINGv2 even double dosing it but after switching to SL they increased appetite,strength,size etc
We have asked you many times, can you give us more information about Activator?
As I said, 3 caps KING v2 is 1g of a blend with phospholipids and niagen.
So even if Activator contains soy enriched PA 50% it would be below 500mg of PA in each serving anyway. It is niagen there! You saif its 200mg niagren. So if you remove niagen (200mg) from the 1g blend you are sitting with 800mg . So even 50% soy enriched PA , that would be just 400mg PA in those 3 caps. 400mg is almost half the dose of 750mg (dose used in the study)
Thats why people dont get results from PA from KING.its underdosed.
So its very simple math bro

Remember, KING has Niagen and many feel more energy on it. But that has nothing to do with PA.

I bet that Activator in KING is just plain Soy Lecithin (not enriched PA or any phospholipids).
So i believe of 1g blend you are getting 4-7%PA which is 40-70mg pr dose.

Like I said before, people liked KING v1 but felt much more of it when they doubledosed it.(more PA =better).
But v2 ,many felt nothing even when doubledosed it.


I had some experiment on my friends living here (many of them have used steroids and they are laughing of supplements).
I gave them Soy lecithin and said how to dose it etc. I said it is a good stimulant,decreasing appetite (said many incorrect things, due to placeboeffect).

All of them reported:
-huge increased appetite
-musclefullness
Strength gains
-size (weight gain without eating more).
They asked me why it increased they appetite.it was not what they was told it should do and they felt no stim effect.
Then I told them what exactly they was taking and it worked very well for them.

Funny how you still say its just placebo.

If anything is placebo, KING v2 is the biggest placebo ever
 
TheFugitive said:
King is so competitively priced it's almost like your stealing it. The Truth Stak promo will take place soon
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If, as you've repeatedly said, you get what you pay for, would that mean that even King is an inferior PA product? You have said that using Activator instead of Mediator allows you to keep the price of King low. If price is a direct indicator of quality, as you appear to be saying, is Mediator superior to Activator? In the supplement industry, price is by no means a good indicator of quality. You should know that.

I'm not giving you a hard time because I dislike you or Cutler Nutrition; I've bought probably half a dozen bottles of King between the old and new formulas. I've made some of the best gains of my life during my first 6-8 weeks with King V1. I just can't fathom how you are questioning if the gains from the granules are a result of the placebo effect. Actually, I can understand why...
 
Danes said:
You know that i love you too and I dont lie either.
But remember brother:

1: I have been working out 14 years
2: never tried anabolic steroids/PH/DS/peptides/HGH or anything hormonal etc.
3. I have almost tried everything of natural stuff and there is just few things that really worked and those things has actually been working for many people too such asny friends, people on different forums etc.
4. When I try new things, i dont stack it with 10 other things. I am running it alone 2 months to see how MY body respond to it. Strength etc.
5. I dont use stimulants either.(many people use new product with heavy stims, so they dont know for sure how they respond on the new product).

I said this many times,
PA has no absorption and bioavailability issues. Even from 2% it would not be any problem. Higher % does not mean it works better but you need to take less of it to get higher PA dose. SL is letting people getting high PA doses and that WORKS. Its amount of PA that is important and not%.
You should really read about phospholipids and even talk to a scientist who can their stuff.

KING v1 was a good product (containing mediaTOR which was 750mg PA in 3 caps).
KING v2 is something I really dont trust.
The blend cant contain enough PA.
I know many who felt NOTHING from KINGv2 even double dosing it but after switching to SL they increased appetite,strength,size etc
We have asked you many times, can you give us more information about Activator?
As I said, 3 caps KING v2 is 1g of a blend with phospholipids and niagen.
So even if Activator contains soy enriched PA 50% it would be below 500mg of PA in each serving anyway. It is niagen there! You saif its 200mg niagren. So if you remove niagen (200mg) from the 1g blend you are sitting with 800mg . So even 50% soy enriched PA , that would be just 400mg PA in those 3 caps. 400mg is almost half the dose of 750mg (dose used in the study)
Thats why people dont get results from PA from KING.its underdosed.
So its very simple math bro

Remember, KING has Niagen and many feel more energy on it. But that has nothing to do with PA.

I bet that Activator in KING is just plain Soy Lecithin (not enriched PA or any phospholipids).
So i believe of 1g blend you are getting 4-7%PA which is 40-70mg pr dose.
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Am I the only one who finds it suspect that there is no info listed for who owns the Activator trademark on the King label? The old bottle listed who owned Mediator, and both the old and new bottles say who owns Niagen. Does that mean that Cutler/BPI owns Activator? If so, how can you not know how much PA is in your own trademark? Can someone with Cutler please point me to more info on the Activator trademark? I can't find ANY info about it anywhere.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Am I the only one who finds it suspect that there is no info listed for who owns the Activator trademark on the King label? The old bottle listed who owned Mediator, and both the old and new bottles say who owns Niagen. Does that mean that Cutler/BPI owns Activator? If so, how can you not know how much PA is in your own trademark? Can someone with Cutler please point me to more info on the Activator trademark? I can't find ANY info about it anywhere.
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Just look at my simple math.
Even if Activator is soy enriched PA50%like mediaTOR , from 1g blend(3 caps). Its max 400mg PA.200mgis niagen.

Thats why I prefer Micro PA from biotest if I wanT PA caps.I know exactly what i am getting.

Saying PA caps are different league than SL is sooooo lol.
PA caps ARE SL but just PA enriched so you dont need 30 caps at day.

I have 100s PM where people complain about king V2 and 100s PM where people LOVE SL .

I really dont like the way KING v2 is pushing around forums and when we ask simple questions about the product, there is no answer but just "hey man its amazing." :)

TheFugitive, I bet your shoulders are due to BPI A-HD, A50 and Anabolic Elite stacked with KING V2 ;)?
Come on man ! We are not in a kindergarden
 
Danes said:
Just look at my simple math.
Even if Activator is soy enriched PA50%like mediaTOR , from 1g blend(3 caps). Its max 400mg PA.200mgis niagen.

Thats why I prefer Micro PA from biotest if I wanT PA caps.I know exactly what i am getting.

Saying PA caps are different league than SL is sooooo lol.
PA caps ARE SL but just PA enriched so you dont need 30 caps at day.

I have 100s PM where people complain about king V2 and 100s PM where people LOVE SL .

I really dont like the way KING v2 is pushing around forums and when we ask simple questions about the product, there is no answer but just "hey man its amazing." :)
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In regards to the old King label, I'm looking at an empty bottle of it now, there is 2.1g total coming from 750mg Mediator PA (1.5g total), and then 0.6g between the the 3 herbs and Niagen, which is listed last. Based on this, there can not be more than 150mg Niagen. That label makes sense. The numbers add up. Assuming that there's the same 150mg Niagen in V2, that only leaves 850mg for Activator, and there's no way it's anywhere near the 88% PA it would need to be to have 750mg per serving.

I've never tried Micro PA due to the price, but I'd expect PhosphaMuscle to be cheaper, and it does list the 750mg Mediator PA. King V1 was a steal, and V2 is around the same price, but what am I paying for?
 
muscleupcrohn said:
In regards to the old King label, I'm looking at an empty bottle of it now, there is 2.1g total coming from 750mg Mediator PA (1.5g total), and then 0.6g between the the 3 herbs and Niagen, which is listed last. Based on this, there can not be more than 150mg Niagen. That label makes sense. The numbers add up. Assuming that there's the same 150mg Niagen in V2, that only leaves 850mg for Activator, and there's no way it's anywhere near the 88% PA it would need to be to have 750mg per serving.

I've never tried Micro PA due to the price, but I'd expect PhosphaMuscle to be cheaper, and it does list the 750mg Mediator PA. King V1 was a steal, and V2 is around the same price, but what am I paying for?
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Exactly.
What are you paying for?
You are paying for underdosed product
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Am I the only one who finds it suspect that there is no info listed for who owns the Activator trademark on the King label? The old bottle listed who owned Mediator, and both the old and new bottles say who owns Niagen. Does that mean that Cutler/BPI owns Activator? If so, how can you not know how much PA is in your own trademark? Can someone with Cutler please point me to more info on the Activator trademark? I can't find ANY info about it anywhere.
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I couldnt find anything doing a search at the USPTO.
 
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