MEADOWS periworkout Supplement/nutrition protocol

[kissdadookie]

amino acid supplementation can attenuate breakdown without carbs. and yea, i guess glycogen is a factor for 1 day-a-year in the minuscule subset of bodybuilders who take their physique on stage.

I've already posted a link to a relatively recent study which suggests what you are saying isn't actually very applicable. This also include performance.

If you have access to the full text of that study and find issues with the full text, please share.

 

[Admin]

I've already posted a link to a relatively recent study which suggests what you are saying isn't actually very applicable. This also include performance.

If you have access to the full text of that study and find issues with the full text, please share.

Regulation of GLUT4 protein and glycogen synthase during muscle glycogen synthesis after exercise.

Ivy JL1, Kuo CH.
Author information
Abstract
The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following its depletion by exercise is biphasic. Initially, there is a rapid, insulin independent increase in the muscle glycogen stores. This is then followed by a slower insulin dependent rate of synthesis. Contributing to the rapid phase of glycogen synthesis is an increase in muscle cell membrane permeability to glucose, which serves to increase the intracellular concentration of glucose-6-phosphate (G6P) and activate glycogen synthase. Stimulation of glucose transport by muscle contraction as well as insulin is largely mediated by translocation of the glucose transporter isoform GLUT4 from intracellular sites to the plasma membrane. Thus, the increase in membrane permeability to glucose following exercise most likely reflects an increase in GLUT4 protein associated with the plasma membrane. This insulin-like effect on muscle glucose transport induced by muscle contraction, however, reverses rapidly after exercise is stopped. As this direct effect on transport is lost, it is replaced by a marked increase in the sensitivity of muscle glucose transport and glycogen synthesis to insulin. Thus, the second phase of glycogen synthesis appears to be related to an increased muscle insulin sensitivity. Although the cellular modifications responsible for the increase in insulin sensitivity are unknown, it apparently helps maintain an increased number of GLUT4 transporters associated with the plasma membrane once the contraction-stimulated effect on translocation has reversed. It is also possible that an increase in GLUT4 protein expression plays a role during the insulin dependent phase.

 

[kissdadookie]

Regulation of GLUT4 protein and glycogen synthase during muscle glycogen synthesis after exercise.

Ivy JL1, Kuo CH.
Author information
Abstract
The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following its depletion by exercise is biphasic. Initially, there is a rapid, insulin independent increase in the muscle glycogen stores. This is then followed by a slower insulin dependent rate of synthesis. Contributing to the rapid phase of glycogen synthesis is an increase in muscle cell membrane permeability to glucose, which serves to increase the intracellular concentration of glucose-6-phosphate (G6P) and activate glycogen synthase. Stimulation of glucose transport by muscle contraction as well as insulin is largely mediated by translocation of the glucose transporter isoform GLUT4 from intracellular sites to the plasma membrane. Thus, the increase in membrane permeability to glucose following exercise most likely reflects an increase in GLUT4 protein associated with the plasma membrane. This insulin-like effect on muscle glucose transport induced by muscle contraction, however, reverses rapidly after exercise is stopped. As this direct effect on transport is lost, it is replaced by a marked increase in the sensitivity of muscle glucose transport and glycogen synthesis to insulin. Thus, the second phase of glycogen synthesis appears to be related to an increased muscle insulin sensitivity. Although the cellular modifications responsible for the increase in insulin sensitivity are unknown, it apparently helps maintain an increased number of GLUT4 transporters associated with the plasma membrane once the contraction-stimulated effect on translocation has reversed. It is also possible that an increase in GLUT4 protein expression plays a role during the insulin dependent phase.

So in layman's terms, does that mean that intra workout nutrition including catbs are of benefit if we have an increase of GLUT4 during exercise?

 

[jdg76]

Its more so directed at the guys who obsess over these little details instead of taking in the big picture. People would rather micromanage their supplement stacks instead of going in and putting down some hard work in the gym and topping it off with a solid diet. Those are typically the people who say "well carbs are going to blunt the transient GH release of my resistance training (the effect of which is debatable) so i cant have that!"

If you have questions just understanding the concept thats all good and welcomed around here

But if the guys put in the work at the gym, the smaller details can only help correct?
It was actually I that referred to insulin blunting the release of GH. I said that because way back when, AppNut came out with HGHup I was repping for them at the time. Dirk had some studies showing insulin blunted the release and he was a big advocate of not eating carbs around the dosing of HGHup.

Granted I start sipping on a Karbolyn/Amino drink about the last 20 mins of my workout so I am going against what I just said

 

[Admin]

So in layman's terms, does that mean that intra workout nutrition including catbs are of benefit if we have an increase of GLUT4 during exercise?

In laymans terms, not really...unless you are extremely carb depleted. If you are following a sensible diet, the need for carbs, especially of the high glycemic kind, is not needed....nor an added benefit.

Then again, it's not going to hurt either unless you are going to extremes.


In other words, unless you are talking about the extremes, you are splitting hairs.

 

[Jiigzz]

Thats the key! I'm not saying science is stupid (and I'm SURE you arent either), but bodybuilding just hasnt be studied enough to fully understand it. The studies that we have now have a lot of limitations behind them, and if anything they make me question common principles more so than they do towards explaining them. Science is amazing, technology is amazing, but there is a point in this lifestyle where you simply need to try certain things and see how it does for you.

I bet all of the science guys would read the outline for DC training, quote Brad Schoenfelds work on hypertrophy (which is amazing by the way), and then go "Well theres not enough volume...this cant work!" All the while those of us who said "you know, this sounds interesting I'll give it a shot" had amazing gains all the way through it. Sure, brad has done research into discovering an average amount of volume & intensity towards achieving maximum hypertrophy, but it isnt an end all be all as evidenced by some lower volume approaches like DC and Yates methodologies. The problem is some people may respond insane to these styles, yet they refuse to give them a shot because it flies in the face of the research.

IMO the best approach is to use science as a means for understanding how/why something works rather than to discredit anything that doesn't have a study showing its efficacy. Results can be made long before any study will exist to reinforce the training style.

IIFYM has nothing to do with timing at all. While some people who follow IIFYM take things to the extreme via food sources and meal timing that is their problem and preference.
that would be meal frequency. (as far as timing goes)
if one does not want to cover their pre/post-workout nutrition (which is probably the most important for optimal performance) that is on them.

IIFYM deals more with meeting macronutrients via food choices. If you are not meeting protein/fat/fiber minimums and making logical choices in the 80-90% of the time range, then you should highly consider your own diet and dieting tactics.

thats just my stance at least.

Correct. My issue is that if you go on any board and ask "when is the best time to take XYZ", most people will say it doesn't matter as long as daily macros are in check. While true to a degree, much better results can be made if you are strategic as to meal timing. Also keep in mind that some people will react both poorly and favourably to certain diet strategies.

Its not a fault of the IIFYM premise, its just that many people misinterpret what IIFYM actually means. It was 'invented' solely as a way of answering the countless threads on "I eat real clean 80-90% of the time but is it ok to have a piece of pizza at night?" kind of thing. IIFYM assumes that you have a diet strategy in place which works for you and produces results.

amino acid supplementation can attenuate breakdown without carbs. and yea, i guess glycogen is a factor for 1 day-a-year in the minuscule subset of bodybuilders who take their physique on stage.

Absolutely. Any insulinogenic food source will attenuate breakdown as this is done via the presence of insulin. Are carbs needed? Of course not. Are they beneficial? Absolutely.

no, everything i have posted is rooted in basic exercise physiology. there is no merit to slamming down 100g of carbs while performing a standard bodybuilding style workouts (45-75 minutes of resistance training).
.

I wouldnt say no merit; as you can ask the many meadows followers here or other people who utilize intra workout nutrition if they notice a difference between including it or not including it. Bearing in mind that the benefits may well extend beyond muscle gain, but rather accelerated recovery.

 

[kissdadookie]

In laymans terms, not really...unless you are extremely carb depleted. If you are following a sensible diet, the need for carbs, especially of the high glycemic kind, is not needed....nor an added benefit.

Then again, it's not going to hurt either unless you are going to extremes.


In other words, unless you are talking about the extremes, you are splitting hairs.

How about pretty brutal long sessions? Because that's been my POV on this, if your going hard for longer sessions, probably can only benefit to have good pre and intra nutrition.

More typical hour and less workouts, I agree. Probably good with just a little protein or aminos.

 

[Jiigzz]

So in layman's terms, does that mean that intra workout nutrition including catbs are of benefit if we have an increase of GLUT4 during exercise?

In theory yes, but in reality, not really.

 

[mr.cooper69]

In laymans terms, not really...unless you are extremely carb depleted. If you are following a sensible diet, the need for carbs, especially of the high glycemic kind, is not needed....nor an added benefit.

Then again, it's not going to hurt either unless you are going to extremes.


In other words, unless you are talking about the extremes, you are splitting hairs.

Agreed on all counts. This whole meadows thing has sadly brainwashed a lot of people

 

[Jiigzz]

But if the guys put in the work at the gym, the smaller details can only help correct?
It was actually I that referred to insulin blunting the release of GH. I said that because way back when, AppNut came out with HGHup I was repping for them at the time. Dirk had some studies showing insulin blunted the release and he was a big advocate of not eating carbs around the dosing of HGHup.

Granted I start sipping on a Karbolyn/Amino drink about the last 20 mins of my workout so I am going against what I just said

Unfortunately for GH to do much of anything for muscle growth, it needs to be pulsed and regular. A supplement would be unable to provide the GH necessary to produce a positive effect on muscle growth. It may, however be beneficial for deeper sleep.

 

[mr.cooper69]

But if the guys put in the work at the gym, the smaller details can only help correct?
It was actually I that referred to insulin blunting the release of GH. I said that because way back when, AppNut came out with HGHup I was repping for them at the time. Dirk had some studies showing insulin blunted the release and he was a big advocate of not eating carbs around the dosing of HGHup.

Granted I start sipping on a Karbolyn/Amino drink about the last 20 mins of my workout so I am going against what I just said

Insulin does blunt GH release, but this has no effect on anything...If it did, fasting all day (sky high natural GH levels) would turn you into a shredded, muscular god

 

[Jiigzz]

Agreed on all counts. This whole meadows thing has sadly brainwashed a lot of people

You'd be surprised at how well his protocol worked, if you ever tried it that is.

 

[jdg76]

Unfortunately for GH to do much of anything for muscle growth, it needs to be pulsed and regular. A supplement would be unable to provide the GH necessary to produce a positive effect on muscle growth. It may, however be beneficial for deeper sleep.

I understand it is highly unlikely for a OTC supplement to make a noticable difference in GH release, I was referring more to the idea of insulin blunting or interfering with the bodies normal release of growth hormone.

 

[mr.cooper69]

no, everything i have posted is rooted in basic exercise physiology. there is no merit to slamming down 100g of carbs while performing a standard bodybuilding style workouts (45-75 minutes of resistance training).



you're not following:
exercising muscles do not require insulin to suck in carbohydrates. re: protein balance, protein oxidation can be attenuated with amino acid supplementation alone- there is no need for the carbs.

Agreed again, and KDD, I can see you still didn't read the FT of this study you cite in EVERY thread

 

[Jiigzz]

I understand it is highly unlikely for a OTC supplement to make a noticable difference in GH release, I was referring more to the idea of insulin blunting or interfering with the bodies normal release of growth hormone.

Oh, then no.

 

[Admin]

How about pretty brutal long sessions? Because that's been my POV on this, if your going hard for longer sessions, probably can only benefit to have good pre and intra nutrition.

More typical hour and less workouts, I agree. Probably good with just a little protein or aminos.

It actually depends on your overall diet than anything. It would have to be really long and more cardio based than anything....weight lifting overall (excluding massive amounts of compound movements) doesn't really tax muscle glycogen as much as people think.

 

[mr.cooper69]

You'd be surprised at how well his protocol worked, if you ever tried it that is.

I'm sure his protocol works REALLY well, but the reason is not a direct outcome of the reasons he mentions. In other words, good protocol, incorrect reasoning...and now people are taking his false reasoning and applying it out of context

 

[Jiigzz]

I'm sure his protocol works REALLY well, but the reason is not a direct outcome of the reasons he mentions. In other words, good protocol, incorrect reasoning...and now people are taking his false reasoning and applying it out of context

Oh right, gotcha. People will buy into it though and hes gotta do what sells

 

[mr.cooper69]

Oh right, gotcha. People will buy into it though and hes gotta do what sells

Yeah it's kinda like how I can tell you to eat 6 meals a day 2 hours apart with only chicken and broccoli and brown rice, and you'll see great gains. But the reason is because you stuck to a reasonable diet plan with good macros, not because of meal timing and food choices

 

[Admin]

Yeah it's kinda like how I can tell you to eat 6 meals a day 2 hours apart with only chicken and broccoli and brown rice, and you'll see great gains. But the reason is because you stuck to a reasonable diet plan with good macros, not because of meal timing and food choices

You would be be surprised what canned chicken and whole wheat bagels can do for a person. Kills their taste buds, but gets really nice results.

 

[Akagami]

I'm sure his protocol works REALLY well, but the reason is not a direct outcome of the reasons he mentions. In other words, good protocol, incorrect reasoning...and now people are taking his false reasoning and applying it out of context

That said, John Meadows designs his clients' diet and training protocols holistically. The peri-workout protocol fits as one piece of the puzzle in conjunction with the die the sets up for his clients, as well the type of training he has them do. I guess what I'm saying basically agrees, but that I think even if his reasoning is scientifically faulty, it works well in his context.

My opinion is that the value of these products/protocols just really depends on your nutrition and the type of training you do. If your last meal was 4-6 hours ago and you're going into the gym, using an intra-workout drink will help. N=1, but in my case it helps to focus -mentally- as well. Most of the scientific stuff examines the interaction of hormones, carbs, insulin dependent/independent uptake, but if a product/strategy improves your drive in the gym, that is just as important imo. The longer you are in the gym the more it will help too.

Though what I really like is the cream of wheat/rice/whatever advice from John. You don't have to buy cream of wheat/rice, you can take your grain of choice and grind it in a blender. Personally, I like oatmeal. Right now I just use half a cup (1 serving) and I'll take about two cups of non-fat milk, mix some of the milk drink some of it. It works out to roughly 20/50/5 of protein/carb/fat, goes down easy and quick. Eaten 30 min-2 hour before I head to the gym, typically depending on my hunger level (dieting now **** me). The milk is cause I don't have any protein at the moment -- you could just as well use 3/4 a scoop or a scoop of whey + a fruit or more oats. I notice when I follow this that I rarely have any off days in the gym, and those days of magic where everything seems light come more often as well.

I like it more than protein + liquid carbs because I get food in my stomach.

 

[jdg76]

My preworkout of choice ^^^^^^ scoop of protein and 2 servings oatmeal in 10oz milk.

 

[Akagami]

Grinding the oats makes it even better IMO! Although I LOVED cream of wheat when I was kid so I've been crazy for this stuff pretty much since I could use a spoon....

 

[The Solution]

You would be be surprised what canned chicken and whole wheat bagels can do for a person. Kills their taste buds, but gets really nice results.

I almost spit my diet soda out reading this LMAO

 

[NattyForLife]

So after reading all this fluff, what is the consensus?

 

[FireRescue]

I'm sure his protocol works REALLY well, but the reason is not a direct outcome of the reasons he mentions. In other words, good protocol, incorrect reasoning...and now people are taking his false reasoning and applying it out of context

I found this comment interesting and surprising Mr. Cooper. From reading your comments I was not aware you personally would find a significant benefit to intra WO carbohydrates for the trainee with less than a75-90 minute workout (assuming the rest of their diet is in check).

 

[Royd The Noyd]

IIFYM has nothing to do with timing at all. While some people who follow IIFYM take things to the extreme via food sources and meal timing that is their problem and preference.
that would be meal frequency. (as far as timing goes)
if one does not want to cover their pre/post-workout nutrition (which is probably the most important for optimal performance) that is on them.

IIFYM deals more with meeting macronutrients via food choices. If you are not meeting protein/fat/fiber minimums and making logical choices in the 80-90% of the time range, then you should highly consider your own diet and dieting tactics.

thats just my stance at least.

Invalid Link Removed

 

[Jiigzz]

Lol

 

[mr.cooper69]

I found this comment interesting and surprising Mr. Cooper. From reading your comments I was not aware you personally would find a significant benefit to intra WO carbohydrates for the trainee with less than a75-90 minute workout (assuming the rest of their diet is in check).

I think you misinterpret my post. The protocol would work well for performance, but it is not a causative relationship, i.e. intraworkout carbs are not the reason the protocol works. Rather, carbs are the reason the protocol works (timing aside)

 

[Big Papi]

I've already posted a link to a relatively recent study which suggests what you are saying isn't actually very applicable. This also include performance.

If you have access to the full text of that study and find issues with the full text, please share.

the study is full of fail.

I think you misinterpret my post. The protocol would work well for performance, but it is not a causative relationship, i.e. intraworkout carbs are not the reason the protocol works. Rather, carbs are the reason the protocol works (timing aside)

this. there a better and more delicious ways to take in carbs. that being said, i do use a small bit of carbs intraworkout when i have 2+ hour gym/bball sessions first thing in the morning and i'm low-carb dieting, but ~15g of carbs over the course of 2 hours isn't going to do much to insulin.

 

[Jiigzz]

the study is full of fail.

this. there a better and more delicious ways to take in carbs. that being said, i do use a small bit of carbs intraworkout when i have 2+ hour gym/bball sessions first thing in the morning and i'm low-carb dieting, but ~15g of carbs over the course of 2 hours isn't going to do much to insulin.

You're missing the point of why people advocate for carbs intra. Simply go into breezys log and stick around for a while and you will note why

 

[Pec.Major]

What does meadows periworkout protocol consist of? Can I find it somewhere?

 

[ma70]

What does meadows periworkout protocol consist of? Can I find it somewhere?

post 2 and 3 of this thread.

 

[The Solution]

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you did not even read what you quoted. (my post)
Did you even read the website?

"Leaving science to one side for a moment, one of the most critical factors in determining meal frequency is what you prefer."

IIFYM = if it fits your macros
so if you decide to meet your macros with all broccoli and rice and chicken great
if you want to add in some strawberries to hit your macros great
If you want to add 25g of carbs from cereal and then the other 300g from rice, potatoes, and oats. then great
Again personal preference
the frequency of 4 meals or 6 meals is "Personal Preference" so if one does 6 their frequency may not matter to someone who prefers 4.

^^ an example from the website and the research on there to back the personal preference factor comparing it to someone who thinks you need to eat every 2-3 hours.

 

[kevinhy]

I think you misinterpret my post. The protocol would work well for performance, but it is not a causative relationship, i.e. intraworkout carbs are not the reason the protocol works. Rather, carbs are the reason the protocol works (timing aside)

I disagree. I'm one who is extremely OCD about everything I do, and also the manner in which i track my personal results - via hydrostatic submersion, weight, and regular pictures for comparison. I took some of my daily carb allotment from my usual enormous post workout meal, and added them into my BCAA during my workout, and according to the dunk tank I had extremely favorable changes in my body composition after a 2 month period. Would that have happened regardless if all the carbs were consumed post workout as usual? Impossible to say, but the reduction in soreness and ability to push even harder even if it were simply due to higher BG levels allowed me to gain considerable lean mass.

That being said, every single session I do is war with my body. I go into the squat rack and it isnt over until I'm seeing stars, my legs are quivering, and some of those aminos/carbs are creeping up the back of my throat. Its easy to be a naysayer when you've never tried everything and your whole logic is firmly rooted in the science lab, but you dont grow muscle crunching numbers and lifting calculators. Again I refer to DC training and it flying in the face of scientific reasoning in terms of adequate volume, yet it blatantly works if you bust your ass.

 

[Admin]

Would that have happened regardless if all the carbs were consumed post workout as usual?

Yes, and it had nothing to do with BG levels.

 

[Admin]

Its easy to be a naysayer when you've never tried everything and your whole logic is firmly rooted in the science lab, but you dont grow muscle crunching numbers and lifting calculators. .

You are n=1 and you are lecturing others?

 

[kevinhy]

You are n=1 and you are lecturing others?

I'm just trying to open peoples minds up

Have you tried it?

 

[Admin]

I'm just trying to open peoples minds up

Have you tried it?

The concept that has been around for 25yrs and re-packaged?

Yes.

 

[Admin]

I'm just trying to open peoples minds up

Have you tried it?

You have this presumption that people's minds are closed simply because they question the validity of a "one size fits all" recommendation when it comes to nutrition...when its actually quite the opposite.

 

[kissdadookie]

Agreed again, and KDD, I can see you still didn't read the FT of this study you cite in EVERY thread

Like I mentioned to Big Papi, please tear the study apart if any of you have read the full text. I have not as I have no access to it and accessing it does not benefit me in any fashion in terms of my line of work.

 

[kissdadookie]

the study is full of fail.

Based on what? Have you read the full text? If you're just going by the abstract, I don't see how your opinion here matters because if anything, the abstract suggests that intra carbs are very effective and has no negative impact on lipolysis. So at worse, it doesn't do anything, but there's only benefits to be had rather than any negatives which you have been advocating it has.

Also, who the heck suggests taking 15 grams of carbs over the course of 2 hours? That's pointless. You still need a good amount of it for it to do anything of note. I'm taking in 38 grams of carbs + 15 grams of protein pre, another 38 grams of carbs + 15 grams of protein pre, then 20 grams of protein post. I essentially do splits/2-a-days which most people would do in two separate sessions but I just choose to combine them together into one big session. I do this because I honestly have little else to do in the morning and just enjoy it to tell you the truth. I've tried various protocols. Fasted, just aminos, aminos + some carbs, what I'm doing now however allows me to put in the volume and the frequency I use. It's very noticeable. This is from practical application of these things, rather than a bunch of strangers online debating things that they only grasp on paper and theoretically rather than actually trying things in practice.

Mind you, I use to scoff at the type of protocol I have been using for several months now. Absolutely just poo pooed the heck out of it... until I started trying it. World of difference. Why do you think these protocols are more or less universally well regarded by people whom have tried it? Because when you put it to use, you actually find a lot of benefits from it. Prior to putting it to practice, ones mentality usually falls in line with whatever they are currently doing must be perfectly fine because to them, they are doing quite well. That's doing nothing for you other than placing an arbitrary barrier on what you can and can not do. Kind of self limiting IMO. It is just my opinion though of course.

 

[Pec.Major]

post 2 and 3 of this thread.

Oops my bad!

 

[Admin]

This is from practical application of these things, rather than a bunch of strangers online debating things that they only grasp on paper and theoretically rather than actually trying things in practice.

Who do you think you are talking to? Do you honestly think the people who question this haven't tried something like this or trained people for years that haven't tried something like this?

Do you think this is some sort of new revolutionary nutritional concept?

I don't think anyone in this thread stated it won't work...they question the fact that its probably a band aid that is fixing a larger problem...and if you fix the larger problem then this notion of magically timed carbs will go away.

I could take two individuals and feed them 50g of dextrose with 5g of creatine and one person will fly through their workout, pumped, energy, focus, etc.... while the other crashes and sits on the toilet with the runs....and you are going to tell me their is some sort of universal magically timed carb that works for everyone?

I just love when individuals such as yourself lecture others for looking at things objectively while ignoring the overall picture.

 

[kissdadookie]

Who do you think you are talking to? Do you honestly think the people who question this haven't tried something like this or trained people for years that haven't tried something like this?

Do you think this is some sort of new revolutionary nutritional concept?

I don't think anyone in this thread stated it won't work...they question the fact that its probably a band aid that is fixing a larger problem...and if you fix the larger problem then this notion of magically timed carbs will go away.

I could take two individuals and feed them 50g of dextrose with 5g of creatine and one person will fly through their workout, pumped, energy, focus, etc.... while the other crashes and sits on the toilet with the runs....and you are going to tell me their is some sort of universal magically timed carb that works for everyone?

I just love when individuals such as yourself lecture others for looking at things objectively while ignoring the overall picture.

1) You're talking about dextrose here. I would be on the toilet pooping my brains out if I had to take down that much dextrose early in the morning. However, certain other carb sources I'm fine with. So carb sources do matter. Which of course makes it silly for people to go "just use dextrose, it's just the same!" It's certainly not if you can't handle it well.

2) I DON'T think it's a revolutionary concept. What I DO think is that trends went completely over to the other end which is to train fasted in an effort for leanness/losing fat. That trend pretty much overtook peri-workout nutrition from the looks of things going by posts. So as usual, whatever is trending ends up being the popular opinion which many just end up taking as gospel.

3) Whenever did I EVER point out this as being something to make up for a chitty overall diet? When have I EVER insinuated this? I've stuck STRICTLY to possible benefits of peri-workout nutrition in the context of that period of time. Overall diet being proper should be implied, if I have to actually make this distinction, I think there's a far greater underlying problem then and it has nothing to do with peri-workout nutrition.

4) I even went out of my way to point out that AT WORSE peri-workout nutrition will possible not do anything, but it's very likely that it does provide benefits.

So, if you take everything and keep it WITHIN CONTEXT accounting for the fact that you have a bunch of forum lurkers whom strictly take whatever they read on here as 110% gospel/fact, what I have said is valid and even beneficial if you think about it. I'm pointing out that 1) don't take everything you read on boards as facts and 2) if you're curious about something, give it a go in practice (as long as it's relatively safe of course, not suggesting people go get loaded on drugs just because it appears awesome, some mindfulness needs to be exhibited of course).

 

[jdg76]

I've been following along and the main point I agree with here is that what works for you, might not work for me, whether a study says it will or not, period. Like I stated above I just recently started drinking a carb (Karbolyn) and amino drink 30 mins into my workout. I normally finish it on the way home, and then I DON"T have a protein shake, rather I just eat a big meal. I have noticed my recovery being the same if not better than the age old "no carb peri-workout, protein shake immediately after workout" theory.

 

[koi1214]

I've been following along and the main point I agree with here is that what works for you, might not work for me, whether a study says it will or not, period.

Nice post.

 

[Admin]

1) You're talking about dextrose here. I would be on the toilet pooping my brains out if I had to take down that much dextrose early in the morning. However, certain other carb sources I'm fine with. So carb sources do matter. Which of course makes it silly for people to go "just use dextrose, it's just the same!" It's certainly not if you can't handle it well.

Its an example. I could use scenario with a number of carb sources and/or food sources. Once again, you miss point.

2) I DON'T think it's a revolutionary concept. What I DO think is that trends went completely over to the other end which is to train fasted in an effort for leanness/losing fat. That trend pretty much overtook peri-workout nutrition from the looks of things going by posts. So as usual, whatever is trending ends up being the popular opinion which many just end up taking as gospel.

I wasn't aware of such trends at all...maybe in what you read, but not me. I don't put much weight on the shifting dietary fads.

3) Whenever did I EVER point out this as being something to make up for a chitty overall diet? When have I EVER insinuated this? I've stuck STRICTLY to possible benefits of peri-workout nutrition in the context of that period of time. Overall diet being proper should be implied, if I have to actually make this distinction, I think there's a far greater underlying problem then and it has nothing to do with peri-workout nutrition.

I didn't state it made up for a bad diet...I simply stated, as did others, the this new "peri-workout" could be masking the issue of a bigger problem. When others like me brought this up, we were relegated to those who simply read studies and have zero experience.

4) I even went out of my way to point out that AT WORSE peri-workout nutrition will possible not do anything, but it's very likely that it does provide benefits.

You mean eating properly around a caloric expenditure is beneficial? Shocking concept! But now there is a new name for it...peri-nutrition. It used to be called meals 3 and 4.

So, if you take everything and keep it WITHIN CONTEXT accounting for the fact that you have a bunch of forum lurkers whom strictly take whatever they read on here as 110% gospel/fact, what I have said is valid and even beneficial if you think about it. I'm pointing out that 1) don't take everything you read on boards as facts and 2) if you're curious about something, give it a go in practice (as long as it's relatively safe of course, not suggesting people go get loaded on drugs just because it appears awesome, some mindfulness needs to be exhibited of course).

You are the second person to insinuate that those objecting are simply locked in their ivory towers reading studies, when in fact we simply look at nutrition in a much more broad and long term fashion. Its not that we think it doesn't work...its not that we haven't tried it...its not that we are close minded...it has more to do with the fact that we believe the reason it works is because its helping fix a larger issue rather than have some magical effect with some magical carb because its within some 2 hour magical window.

 

[Admin]

I've been following along and the main point I agree with here is that what works for you, might not work for me, whether a study says it will or not, period. Like I stated above I just recently started drinking a carb (Karbolyn) and amino drink 30 mins into my workout. I normally finish it on the way home, and then I DON"T have a protein shake, rather I just eat a big meal. I have noticed my recovery being the same if not better than the age old "no carb peri-workout, protein shake immediately after workout" theory.

And there are those who will bloat up and crash with any large amounts of carbs....either based on age, metabolism, etc...

I know individuals that if you try and concentrate the majority of their carbs around a 3-4 hour period, they simply will crash.

There just isn't some one sized fits all nutritional protocol that will work for everyone...and the more you try to break it down into 1-2 hour increments, the more you lose the big picture...imo.


And when was there an age old no carb preworkout? Did I miss something?

 

[kissdadookie]

Its an example. I could use scenario with a number of carb sources and/or food sources. Once again, you miss point.



I wasn't aware of such trends at all...maybe in what you read, but not me. I don't put much weight on the shifting dietary fads.




I didn't state it made up for a bad diet...I simply stated, as did others, the this new "peri-workout" could be masking the issue of a bigger problem. When others like me brought this up, we were relegated to those who simply read studies and have zero experience.



You mean eating properly around a caloric expenditure is beneficial? Shocking concept! But now there is a new name for it...peri-nutrition. It used to be called meals 3 and 4.




You are the second person to insinuate that those objecting are simply locked in their ivory towers reading studies, when in fact we simply look at nutrition in a much more broad and long term fashion. Its not that we think it doesn't work...its not that we haven't tried it...its not that we are close minded...it has more to do with the fact that we believe the reason it works is because its helping fix a larger issue rather than have some magical effect with some magical carb because its within some 2 hour magical window.

When have I stated there's a magical window? You're really extrapolating much more than what I've been extremely blunt about in very simple terms.

Why do I frequently bring up that carbs study? Because there's a lot of questionable posts on carbs peri-workout (you can call it pre and intra workout, it's not a new concept, I never claimed it to be, but peri-workout as a naming convention is more efficient then saying pre and intra workout as it is implied), mainly there's still notions being shared on boards that it could somehow magically make you fatter, blunt adaptation, or heck, mainly the main current trend of people wanting to be in fat burning mode 24/7 practically (I obviously spend way too much time on forums, these are things I've noticed, you may not have as it really depends on how much time you bother with reading forum posts). So I offer it as more or less of a "Hey, maybe what you are assuming might not be the entire picture? Take a look at this interesting tidbit."

You appear to have a beef with the NAMING of what is essentially preworkout/intraworkout nutrition, meals, whatever. I'm not claiming that it's a new thing Meadows came up with. It is however easier to remember and say than pre and intra workout nutrition, meals XYZ, etc. When someone hears or reads peri workout nutrition, it paints a clear picture of what is being talked about. If you can handle food around training time, go for it, I've done it before, my body just doesn't agree with it especially so early/first thing in the morning. To me it's preference.

As for me insinuating people who disagree are all just stuck in reading research papers, not quite. I point out the people whom take research papers (often a few select ones whilst ignoring other studies) as gospel because again, depending on how much time you waste reading forum posts, the trends typically appears as so: Person that goes strictly by what they read in studies and then using that as the basis of almost all their posts ----> People whom read the stuff and take it in as 110% fact without bothering to see if it makes any sense or if there's any possibly valid opposing views to it. When I had my stint in hypnosis (not clinical, entertainer), the first thing I learned when I dabbled in it was that people inherently just follow whatever the person that appears to be the authority figure says. That also happens to be what I witness going on with forums. What I'm clearly (perhaps not so clearly seeing how it appears that you have misinterpreted much of what I have been saying) trying to say/present is that hey, if you're poo pooing nutrition around workout time without having given it a go, maybe give it a go. Nothing much to lose and possibly will get some benefit out of it. That's with the rest of your set up (workout as well as overall nutrition) being in check (this is implied, I find it silly that one has to go out of their way to point this out, especially with so many stickies and what not on the basics floating around).

Also, when have I ever stated or laid claims to there being some magical window? Only thing in regards to any sort of window I have mentioned is that it's possible the nutrients you consume around workout time may possibly be utilized in beneficial ways which is likely not to eff up you body comp goals, and I mention this/point out the study mainly for the benefit of those whom strictly stay away from such practices in fear of getting fat from it or what not (again, with proper overall nutrition being in check in the first place, it is implied). NOTE: Just realized this ending paragraph is a repeat of my opening paragraph, I found that amusing so I'm keeping it in