Epic Cutting Stack

booneman77 said:
Total daily has been slowly creeping up from about 1400 until about 1700 yesterday. I'm planning on hitting 1800 and holding for a few days then bumping 100 a week from there as a reverse diet.
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good Christ that is ridiculously low...scary stuff mang
no need for you to be that low, at all - ever
 
The Solution said:
eat food.. shakes are just a replacement for whole food. does eating that much chicken/beef/turkey upset your stomach? Considering whey is very highly processed i am surprised that may not rip your stomach, as long as your meeting kcals if its protein powder or food wont really make a difference.

i know you have jumped around from an IF diet (lesser meals), more bro diet, then did the keto, and now doing this with the shakes etc... what is your plan? To continue trying different things every 3-4 weeks or so?
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The reason for the shakes is that it allows me to get enough in my body to keep me satiated but also only adds up to 330kcal and almost no carbs... find me a real food that I can eat that amount of cals and still be full and I'm all in.

I've been doing a lot of experimenting this year. About 8 weeks of each. I want to find whats the most sustainable long term for me so ya, trying them all out. I'm tired of yo-yo dieting every winter/summer so I want something that I can bulk and cut on that makes me happy mentally and physically.
 
snagencyV2.0 said:
good Christ that is ridiculously low...scary stuff mang
no need for you to be that low, at all - ever
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Well when I was finishing my last few weeks of cutting I was around 1700 so in order to shed some quick water weight and such after vacation I decided to start a bit lower and work back up. My maint has never been very high so I have to be careful how fast i go as I tend to bloat up and put on fat very quickly if I go too high too fast.
 
booneman77 said:
Well when I was finishing my last few weeks of cutting I was around 1700 so in order to shed some quick water weight and such after vacation I decided to start a bit lower and work back up. My maint has never been very high so I have to be careful how fast i go as I tend to bloat up and put on fat very quickly if I go too high too fast.
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yeah I get it, figured that was your intent..just personally feel you are going to unneeded extremes
 
snagencyV2.0 said:
yeah I get it, figured that was your intent..just personally feel you are going to unneeded extremes
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I'd love to say I feel it was unneeded as well but it's always been an issue for me to lose and stay down in weight. My body just hates being anywhere near or below 10% so it's a real struggle.

I'm always open to tips or suggestions though
 
Swolbraham said:
anyone here live close to Philly? I'mma be there saturday from 12-4 for a product promotion with Myokem and help out
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Pitt but I have friends that I visit there once in awhile. You close to Philly?
 
Swol and I have our bulking log up and running so get in for the gainz: Invalid Link Removed

I'll be keeping this updated until the end of this month as I'll be reverse dieting and such until then and then switching over to there full time.
 
booneman77 said:
I'd love to say I feel it was unneeded as well but it's always been an issue for me to lose and stay down in weight. My body just hates being anywhere near or below 10% so it's a real struggle.

I'm always open to tips or suggestions though
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It is a real struggle because the human body is not meant to be shredded year round. Its not healthy from a hormonal/health stand point.
 
The Solution said:
It is a real struggle because the human body is not meant to be shredded year round. Its not healthy from a hormonal/health stand point.
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This is true but usually only in the single digits. 10-12% should be a totally reasonable goal to maintain year round. Single digits is just for showing off
 
The Solution said:
It is a real struggle because the human body is not meant to be shredded year round. Its not healthy from a hormonal/health stand point.
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Essential fat for a male isn't high. One can maintain sub 10 easily enough if they anted.
 
booneman77 said:
I'd love to say I feel it was unneeded as well but it's always been an issue for me to lose and stay down in weight. My body just hates being anywhere near or below 10% so it's a real struggle.

I'm always open to tips or suggestions though
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beyond couple general suggestions, this requires more of a dedicated and consistent approach
trust me when I tell you tho, what you wish to do can be done, metabolism can be increased/changed, I have done same with numerous clients thruout my career who have thought same as you.

The Solution said:
It is a real struggle because the human body is not meant to be shredded year round. Its not healthy from a hormonal/health stand point.
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that really only applies to really low bf levels, like in bb'ing comp ranges, 3-4%, or even lower, which can only be attained healthily for short-term periods

Jiigzz said:
Essential fat for a male isn't high. One can maintain sub 10 easily enough if they anted.
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this, not even an issue

The Solution said:
I think it depends on the person too, some people once they drop they become misreable, some people are just lean as hell year round and have the genetics.
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disagree - if someone is miserable, then it is purely psychological, and has more to do with required food/dietary changes needed, than anything else....

if someone has lived off chocolate and soda pops and breads and pasta and donuts etc etc for yrs on end, then they may see a dietary change that eliminates or greatly reduces these things, as "miserable" or like they are depriving themselves....like anything else in life tho, is all in how you look at it..
if you run around thinking the glass is half-empty all the time, then obviously you will feel differently than if you view the glass as half-full

perspective - it shapes your world
 
snagencyV2.0 said:
beyond couple general suggestions, this requires more of a dedicated and consistent approach trust me when I tell you tho, what you wish to do can be done, metabolism can be increased/changed, I have done same with numerous clients thruout my career who have thought same as you.
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I'm curious what your methodology would be to change something as big as metabolism. I've heard some say that staying at a lower level can help your body adjust to staying at that range but other then that I'm pretty in the dark on how one goes about "resetting" your standard
 
booneman77 said:
I'm curious what your methodology would be to change something as big as metabolism. I've heard some say that staying at a lower level can help your body adjust to staying at that range but other then that I'm pretty in the dark on how one goes about "resetting" your standard
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a long process, but aside from slow incremental increases in caloric intake this typically involves a reassessment & reorganization of food choices, after determining what macros you function better at (ie more conducive to carbs or more geared to operate better at higher fat intake, relatively speaking)...of course by doing this and training correctly, you will accrue more muscle, and therefore will be able to (and will be required to) eat more food to maintain -- hence, the "increased metabolism" effect ...... the other aspect of increasing metabolism is to avoid these ridiculous low levels of intake (such as you have been doing), and especially abstaining from "crash dieting"
 
Snagency, since I'm about to go on a long reverse diet what's your experience with those adding mass / strength with minimal actual weight gain during a reverse diet?
 
Swolbraham said:
Snagency, since I'm about to go on a long reverse diet what's your experience with those adding mass / strength with minimal actual weight gain during a reverse diet?
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generically speaking - strength is fairly easy to increase, to a certain extent, while staying at a static bodyweight..
adding mass however in the absence of substantial enough caloric load to facilitate such, is not going to happen
muscle of course can be developed to an extent, but "mass" as we think of the base terminology....no
 
Is it then just because glycogen stores are being refiled after dieting for long? For example I've read many talk about how they look fuller and tighter after their show and in the midst of a reverse diet. Right now I'm at my last 12 days of dieting and my lowest CHO intake is 200g (Except rest days, I take my intra workout shake out so its 150g). So as my coach increases incrementally per week is it normal in your experience for those to look "better" when reversing then at the end of their cut?

Thanks for the info and responses just trying to learn and interested to see all sorts of feedback
 
Swolbraham said:
Is it then just because glycogen stores are being refiled after dieting for long? For example I've read many talk about how they look fuller and tighter after their show and in the midst of a reverse diet. Right now I'm at my last 12 days of dieting and my lowest CHO intake is 200g (Except rest days, I take my intra workout shake out so its 150g). So as my coach increases incrementally per week is it normal in your experience for those to look "better" when reversing then at the end of their cut?

Thanks for the info and responses just trying to learn and interested to see all sorts of feedback
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you're comparing apples & oranges there..
you hear ppl talk about how they look better "after their show" due to variety of factors - most of which center around not being lean enough for the show to begin with so pull out all these tricks to try to "cut water" (so they claim)...manipulate sodium/potassium load, drop cals to obscenely low levels while concurrently dehydrating...etc etc
the body likes homeostasis, and it does not like antagonistic and dueling processes that contradict themselves; so, when ppl level out and get back to some sense of normalcy, yes they fill back out and look a bit better on the rebound -- you will hear many say they "missed their timing" and blah blah blah, when it was simply a matter of not needing any of that nonsense to start with, they should have just dieted longer

for you however, 200g carbs is not low relatively speaking to a contest prep in final week, so there really is no comparison...you should look bigger and fuller if the reverse diet is performed properly, keeping an eye on spillover as the increases are made, adjustments made where need be applicable if you do start to see some spillover to fat stores..
 
snagencyV2.0 said:
a long process, but aside from slow incremental increases in caloric intake this typically involves a reassessment & reorganization of food choices, after determining what macros you function better at (ie more conducive to carbs or more geared to operate better at higher fat intake, relatively speaking)...of course by doing this and training correctly, you will accrue more muscle, and therefore will be able to (and will be required to) eat more food to maintain -- hence, the "increased metabolism" effect ...... the other aspect of increasing metabolism is to avoid these ridiculous low levels of intake (such as you have been doing), and especially abstaining from "crash dieting"
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Great info. I'll rep at lunch
 
Jiigzz said:
Essential fat for a male isn't high. One can maintain sub 10 easily enough if they anted.
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Drugs can play a part on this too.... someone who goes low fat through a contest prep, some have seen them have to jump on forms of HRT/TRT due to long term dieting and low fat intake. seen it happen to a lot of natural bodybuilders.
 
Since I'm not really cutting anymore I'm gonna switch full time over to mine and swols new log. This week as time permits I'll be doing some mini reviews on everything I used during my cut just to wrap things up. If anyone missed it check out the new log and get in on the gainz!
 
booneman77 said:
Since I'm not really cutting anymore I'm gonna switch full time over to mine and swols new log. This week as time permits I'll be doing some mini reviews on everything I used during my cut just to wrap things up. If anyone missed it check out the new log and get in on the gainz!
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let's do it bruh!!
 
Fat Burners Used - Reviews

Here are the various burners that I used throughout my cut and my thoughts on them (If stacked, I'll comment on the stack)

EBF Metabolic Powder/Adipose Annihilation v2.0/PES Alphamine: This was what I started with and may very well be my new go-to. From Alphamine alone I had amazing results, good energy, and loved the taste (team FP). The dosing was also perfect for me as I was able to take it upon rising, then again around lunch and still be able to take a normal pre workout drink without going stim crazy. A great non-stim burner combo as well. The MP is easy to dose with meals and perfect for mixed macros. it is also quite complimentary to many other supps when taken pre workout. The AAv2 was a bit rough at first duee to the capsaicin that tends to give you some heartburn when dosed. The effectiveness was evident though. Overall I would give this stack a 9/10, only taking points for the heartburn.

Lecheek Hyper T2/iForce Dexaprine XR: This was one of the biggest disappointments in my run. I had heard tales of the crazy energy from Dexaprine XR even at half a cap. I never once experienced anything that I would even consider "strong" energy. Hard to judge the hyper T2 alone but the timing and with this stack just didn't see the results I wanted. The results were about average but I contribute more to my diet at the time then to this stack. Overall I would give this stack a 4/10 and wouldn't buy it again.

iForce TT-33/ ECY: Hard to judge a non-stim that was taken with ECY but the timing of it was effective. The last month or so of my cut I was able to shed some serious fat and really cut up. I would highly recommend this combo again and would put it right up there with Alphamine/AAv2 for a solid stack. 9/10 only based on having so many ingredients but the price of most of them is great so its a fairly cheap stack compared to most current products.

Molecular Nutrition Accelerant: This was run during a sponsored log and came at the perfect time for me. It not only gave me continued fat loss but a serious mood and energy boost. I was incredibly impressed with it after not having much knowledge of some ingredients. 9.5/10 as it did not truly "stimulate" me but rather gave very slow energy. Good for those who want energy without the rush.
 
booneman77 said:
Here are the various burners that I used throughout my cut and my thoughts on them (If stacked, I'll comment on the stack)

EBF Metabolic Powder/Adipose Annihilation v2.0/PES Alphamine: This was what I started with and may very well be my new go-to. From Alphamine alone I had amazing results, good energy, and loved the taste (team FP). The dosing was also perfect for me as I was able to take it upon rising, then again around lunch and still be able to take a normal pre workout drink without going stim crazy. A great non-stim burner combo as well. The MP is easy to dose with meals and perfect for mixed macros. it is also quite complimentary to many other supps when taken pre workout. The AAv2 was a bit rough at first duee to the capsaicin that tends to give you some heartburn when dosed. The effectiveness was evident though. Overall I would give this stack a 9/10, only taking points for the heartburn.

Lecheek Hyper T2/iForce Dexaprine XR: This was one of the biggest disappointments in my run. I had heard tales of the crazy energy from Dexaprine XR even at half a cap. I never once experienced anything that I would even consider "strong" energy. Hard to judge the hyper T2 alone but the timing and with this stack just didn't see the results I wanted. The results were about average but I contribute more to my diet at the time then to this stack. Overall I would give this stack a 4/10 and wouldn't buy it again.

iForce TT-33/ ECY: Hard to judge a non-stim that was taken with ECY but the timing of it was effective. The last month or so of my cut I was able to shed some serious fat and really cut up. I would highly recommend this combo again and would put it right up there with Alphamine/AAv2 for a solid stack. 9/10 only based on having so many ingredients but the price of most of them is great so its a fairly cheap stack compared to most current products.
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Good summary boone.
 
GDA/Nutrient Partitioner Reviews

EBF Recompadrol - This has become my new favorite GDA/Nutrient Partitioner. The effects taht I got from it were exceptional. great pumps throughout the day, zero bloat after carb meals, and all around solid nutrient partitioning that helped my first weeks of cutting immensely. I was actually able to successfully gain weight while improving body comp for a few weeks while in a slight deficit at the beginning of my cut. Solid 10/10 that I will continue to use, especially fo rcheat meals and such.

USP Labs AP - This has been a long time favorite of mine. I find that especially when dosed with all carb meals throughout the day that my muscles look and feel far fuller then they would otherwise. The effects are very visible form the first dose. I enjoy using this especially after lower carb periods as it shows such great first dose impact. 10/10

Genomyx Slin Sane v2 - I did not notice much from this product besides not feeling as bloated. There were no real pumps or fullness of note which was disappointing. Overall this was one of the least enjoyed GDA's I've used. 5/10
 
Misc/Other Supplement Reviews

Analyzed Supplements F-95 (forskolin) - This will be a staple for me going forward. While I did not notice much that I can attribute directly to this in the early stages of my cut, I did notice a significant difference in the middle vs end when I took my break from it. Once coming back on, stubborn fat loss (especially) seemed to jump back up at a solid rate. 9/10 only for the occasional dumping syndrome for the first day or so ;)

USP Labs C20 (og) - Honestly, I've run this on multiple occasions and have yet to see any benefit from it. The Lohdra bark is supposed to be synergistic with ARA but as I didn't give that a full run I wasn't able to see much. I wouldn't waste my money on this stuff again but hey, it was free. 3/10 for synergy only.

Molecular Nutrition X Factor Advanced - Unfortunately i didn't give this the full 50 workout run and I was in a pretty severe deficit by this time so I can't really comment much on the effects outside of some insane pumps. I really can't wait to run this during my bulk though to really see the benefits.

Molecular Nutrition Peak Beta+ - This is one of my new favorite products. I've run twice and during both runs saw significant strength gains while using it. It does take some time to build up, and the 8 cap dose is a lot of pills but its totally worth it. 9/10 losing a point only for the amount of pills and buildup time. Everyone should try a COP product IMO.
 
Pre workouts Review (best/worst only)

I'd go through all of the pre workouts that I used but that would take me forever so I'll simply give my best and worst (in no particular order) and brief explanations:

Best:
Finaflex Stimul8 - great controlled energy even late in my cut (stim tolerance at the max); tropical storm flavor is bomb
Olympus Labs Conqu3r - Maybe the best all around on the market. Pumps and energy for days.
Performax Fitmax - perfect low stim addtion to my ECY stack. Nothing crazy in terms of energy but it has a lot of good fat burning ingredients that make fasted cardio and workouts more effective for fat loss.
Cellucor C4 - This has been a long time favorite of mine. Its lower stim but for whatever reason I respond to it very well and get great energy and focus. Pumps are also decent.

Worst:
USP Labs Jack3d Advanced - one of the all time biggest disappointments. Ruined the Jack3d name for me. No energy, pumps, nothing. I have 2 unopened tubs if anyone is willing to buy/trade.
iForce Hemavol - another epic disappointment. The flavor (blueberry pomegranate) is spectacular but the product does nothing for me. I tend to not do well with pump products and this was exactly the same.
Gamma Labs PTF - in short, it does nothing. Use it as water flavoring only.

If you want any others specifically reviewed let me know and I'll do so.
 
booneman77 said:
Analyzed Supplements F-95 (forskolin) - This will be a staple for me going forward. While I did not notice much that I can attribute directly to this in the early stages of my cut, I did notice a significant difference in the middle vs end when I took my break from it. Once coming back on, stubborn fat loss (especially) seemed to jump back up at a solid rate. 9/10 only for the occasional dumping syndrome for the first day or so ;)

USP Labs C20 (og) - Honestly, I've run this on multiple occasions and have yet to see any benefit from it. The Lohdra bark is supposed to be synergistic with ARA but as I didn't give that a full run I wasn't able to see much. I wouldn't waste my money on this stuff again but hey, it was free. 3/10 for synergy only.

Molecular Nutrition X Factor Advanced - Unfortunately i didn't give this the full 50 workout run and I was in a pretty severe deficit by this time so I can't really comment much on the effects outside of some insane pumps. I really can't wait to run this during my bulk though to really see the benefits.

Molecular Nutrition Peak Beta+ - This is one of my new favorite products. I've run twice and during both runs saw significant strength gains while using it. It does take some time to build up, and the 8 cap dose is a lot of pills but its totally worth it. 9/10 losing a point only for the amount of pills and buildup time. Everyone should try a COP product IMO.
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I'm actually running Compound 20 with Potassium Nitrate before work outs. So far, this combo has treated me right. However, I will say that I won C20 in a promo. :-)
 
cbsharpe said:
I'm actually running Compound 20 with Potassium Nitrate before work outs. So far, this combo has treated me right. However, I will say that I won C20 in a promo. :-)
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What do you mean by "treated you right"?
 
booneman77 said:
What do you mean by "treated you right"?
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Energy has been just right. Not getting that "cracked out" feeling when you take an abundant amount of caffeine. C20 for energy and Potassium Nitrate for the pump. Best of both worlds. Hope this helps.
 
cbsharpe said:
Energy has been just right. Not getting that "cracked out" feeling when you take an abundant amount of caffeine. C20 for energy and Potassium Nitrate for the pump. Best of both worlds. Hope this helps.
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Never heard of c20 for energy? That's not at all what it's designed for and I'm unsure what ingredient could even produce that... Is it the new or old version?
 
cbsharpe said:
New version.
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I gotta think that's a placebo effect as neither of the ingredients has any potential to give you energy... That's not even the purpose of the supp either. If it does for you tho more power to you.
 
booneman77 said:
I gotta think that's a placebo effect as neither of the ingredients has any potential to give you energy... That's not even the purpose of the supp either. If it does for you tho more power to you.
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Yep I take that and potassium nitrate 45 minutes before my workout and that's it. I don't take any stimulants beforehand.
 
cbsharpe said:
Yep I take that and potassium nitrate 45 minutes before my workout and that's it. I don't take any stimulants beforehand.
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Well stick with what works! I know I have a few things I enjoy that don't seem to work like they do for others as well. Supplementing can be such a personal game.
 
booneman77 said:
Well stick with what works! I know I have a few things I enjoy that don't seem to work like they do for others as well. Supplementing can be such a personal game.
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Yeah, thanks man. Strange indeed but don't fix it if it aint broke as they say.
 
Gonna post up some final lessons learned at lunch and then formally close this thread out.
 
The Solution said:
I hope its not bro science advice from co-workers lol.
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haha in my field the only advice I get from my coworkers is: "All that healthy shiit you eat is going to kill you someday. You should be eating donuts and pizza all day like the rest of us. We're in our 50's and weigh 300+lb and are divorced twice so clearly we know how to make good life choices".

I'm gonna post up my "personal" lessons learned ha.
 
Lessons Learned

So over the course of the last 8 month's, I've learned a few things that I will carry with me so i figured I'd sum them up and let anyone who wants take away what they will. Keep in mind, these are mostly personal to me so don't get all offended if what I say doesn't fit you or if it seems rather cookie cutter. These are mostly things that I learned from reading up, but didn't truly appreciate until they were applied in practice...

1) Don't get too fat in the "offseason" - This was far and away the biggest thing I learned this year. It just doesn't make sense or is healthy to have to diet for 7 months out of the year just to be in the condition you want. An all out bulk is not the only way to gain muscle so taking it a bit slower will help keep things reasonable allowing for a shorter cut.

2) Don't fear dietary fat - My first true dieting forte had me on the classic bro-style low fat diet. I had great results with this and therefore became a bit of a fat-phobe. This time around I found that not only does a higher fat diet work wonders for me as far as results, but its also very enjoyable. The last few weeks of my cut and beyond I was doing a full blown keto diet and thoroughly enjoyed it.

3) Diet breaks and gym breaks are essential! - This was the hardest lesson for me to learn and will continue to be hard for me to cope with. I love to train, I love to be strict with my diet; it makes me feel strong and in control. But this year I hit a point where my diet had stalled and I was just run down. By instituting a diet break (even a short one of 4 days at higher calories and plenty of "junk" foods) as well as a week off of the gym I was able to refresh my mind and body and the results were evident. I was revitalized for the rest of my cut and my performance and weight loss showed this.

4) Find what works for you - I tried out a variety of diet styles (keto, CBL, IF, bro,...) throughout this cut and found things that I loved and hated about each and every one. Going forward, I plan to piece my own "perfect" diet from what I enjoyed and feel that I can maintain. Some things I liked:
-Carbs in the evening (CBL) - this I will institute by adding in pwo carbs to my normal dinner. It fits with my training and my lifestyle.
-IF for a little in the mornings - I found that if I fast for too long into the day, I become miserable; however, I can fast for my first 3 waking hours without any issue so i can both reap some of the benefits of the extended fasting period, as well as limit my total number of meals allowing me to eat bigger, more satieting meals.
-More meals - While it doesnt have to be the full bro 7-8 meals, I found that 2-3 was a pretty tight schedule and that it left me feeling more sluggish then I would like. 4-5 meals fits perfectly with my schedule and the fact that my meals could be big enough to enjoy.
-Fats keep me satieted - keeping and even adding dietary fats helped greatly with how full I felt and for how long. Going forward I plan to have keto days sprinkled here and there to help not only with fullness but to promote insulin sensitivity.

5) Design your training - The best "program" I was on during my cut was the one I designed myself. Not necissarily because it gave me the best results, but because it was what I enjoyed and wanted to focus on. I had the freedom to change as i felt necessary and therefore was able to fix imbalances, tweak times, etc all to ensure that i got the most out of every workout. While a good "standard" program can be very effective, it may never get the best out of you because it will never truly be "yours". I would highly suggest trying to design your own routine and run it for a few months and tell me you don't feel better about both yourself and your training.

6) Reflect - This is my final thought. When you get to any point in your training/diet/etc take a moment to reflect on where you've come from and how you got there. It's amazing the different paths that can be taken and just to see the changes that have occurred throughout that time. Enjoy the journey and not just the end result.

Thanks to all of you guys for following along and all of your comments, tips, advice, criticism, and motivation that you supplied along the way. As I move into the next stage of my evolution I'll be taking this new knowledge with me and hopefully applying it to my future goals. One last pitch for mine and swol's new bulking log (in my sig) so if you're not already following along get in there.
 
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