John kiefer "carb backloading"
- Thread starter Rush8780
- Start date
MaXopA
Member
I've been following CBL for 4-5 months now and I'm quite satisfied with my results. I'm doing a cross between SA and DB protocol.
However, I'm quite sure I would have achieved the same gains with a standard BB nutritional protocol based on "clean" carbs and without needing to fast. IMO, the best thing about CBL is the fact you are "allowed" to eat quite large amounts of the usually demonized high-gi foods in the evenings, the part of the day during which I was craving for "unhealthy" foods. Other than that, you're still supposed to keep an eye on your macros, especially during the ULC part of the day (before training) as well as on off-days.
To be honest, if your main goal is bulking, I'd not suggest CBL, since during the fasting phase you partly interrupt the flow of nutrients which can keep you in a better anabolic state to build muscle mass. During a cut / recomp it can give you quite decent results, though. Just remember not to use CBL as an excuse to eat junk food every day. I'll have one chocolate bar once/twice a week as a little reward, but apart from that I stick to baked potatoes, puffed rice cakes, sugar-free cornflakes and other gluten-free foods during my backloads. Moreover, don't forget to limit your fructose intake as it potentially has the ability to create unlimited amounts of fat (refined sugar, for example, is made of 50% fructose and 50% glucose).
However, I'm quite sure I would have achieved the same gains with a standard BB nutritional protocol based on "clean" carbs and without needing to fast. IMO, the best thing about CBL is the fact you are "allowed" to eat quite large amounts of the usually demonized high-gi foods in the evenings, the part of the day during which I was craving for "unhealthy" foods. Other than that, you're still supposed to keep an eye on your macros, especially during the ULC part of the day (before training) as well as on off-days.
To be honest, if your main goal is bulking, I'd not suggest CBL, since during the fasting phase you partly interrupt the flow of nutrients which can keep you in a better anabolic state to build muscle mass. During a cut / recomp it can give you quite decent results, though. Just remember not to use CBL as an excuse to eat junk food every day. I'll have one chocolate bar once/twice a week as a little reward, but apart from that I stick to baked potatoes, puffed rice cakes, sugar-free cornflakes and other gluten-free foods during my backloads. Moreover, don't forget to limit your fructose intake as it potentially has the ability to create unlimited amounts of fat (refined sugar, for example, is made of 50% fructose and 50% glucose).
The Solution
Legend
The only thing your doing different is alloting your carbs later at night compared to throughout the day. So therefore its not really a major difference just macro manipulation and shifting.
Its very similar to the Biorythm diet which you can read about here.
Take everything you read with a grain of salt, some prefer to have more carbs throughout the day, but i would still focus on taking care of your carbs around your training for "Optimal" performance, some train better with or without them, so experiment and see how you react.
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-- By ingesting high-fat meals in the evening, you induce "metabolic inflexibility" – effectively disrupting metabolic rate and increasing fat storage, risk of obesity, elevated insulin levels and a reduction in insulin sensitivity.
-- By ingesting high-fat meals in the morning and afternoon, you increase metabolic flexibility – setting the metabolism for higher fat oxidation throughout the day. As LPL enzyme (splits up circulating fatty acids and makes them available for storage) is higher in muscle in the AM, fats are more likely to be burned off as energy or stored as lipid droplets within the muscle (IMTG).
-- By ingesting high-carb meals in the morning, the same “metabolic inflexibility” occurred, and the metabolism is fixed towards glucose oxidation instead of fat oxidation. This also increases fat storage from meals eaten during the day, and higher-fat meals eaten in the evening in particular.
-- By ingesting high-carb meals in the evening, you get a bump in the natural leptin signal (occurring 3-6hrs after going to sleep), essentially increasing fat burning through the night and the rest of the following day.
-- Insulin sensitivity is higher in all cells early in the day, including fat cells, but decreases towards the afternoon and evening, thus partitioning carbs ingested at this time more efficiently into muscle vs. fat. This is obviously further improved by training the muscle that day.
-- Eating carbs will increase the feel-good neurotransmitter serotonin and make you sleepy. What better time to have your carbs than a couple of hours before bedtime so you can fall into a deeper, higher-quality sleep
Dulce
Member
It's pretty awesome. I have managed to get stronger without bulking (not as strong as I would if I were) but while leaning out. Most importantly I'm so much more emotionally satisfied. I am able to stay clean because I know that there is a high carb treat meal waiting for me at the end of the week.
I naturally prefer to eat carbs at night anyways so the back loading works well. During the day I only have time to swallow my food whole bc my work gives me no down time
I naturally prefer to eat carbs at night anyways so the back loading works well. During the day I only have time to swallow my food whole bc my work gives me no down time
booneman77
Legend
I wouldnt mind if anyone has a copy of the book they are willing to share them me...
I'd be interested in this too if anyone has it. Maybe even throw a few bucks in.
RecompMan
Well-known member
I wouldnt mind if anyone has a copy of the book they are willing to share them me...
I have it
Email me homie
RecompMan
Well-known member
Email me. I got it
The Solution
Legend
Does not matter what day it is, you would backload everyday and shift your carbs more toward nighttime as i addressed above
MaXopA
Member
this doesn't apply to the Strength Accumulation protocol. Kiefer fully and clearly expressed that you won't backload on off-days unless you are Density Bulking.
The Solution
Legend
You could still backload if your calories are in a deficit or around maintaince, at the end of the day what matters most? Your caloric intake.
as i posted above (Regarding the Biorhythm Diet) you can see the benefits of carb backloading or intaking the majority towards nighttime and the reasons why. If you backload and still in a deficit you can still lose weight, apply the benefits, and reap what your doing. See how it suits you and adjust.
keithgeiling
Member
In on this. To follow the conversation.
Rush8780
Member
The book says no backload on off days? I def have no problem with it tho just dont wanna gain fat
The Solution
Legend
Please re-read what i wrote above:
" you can see the benefits of carb backloading or intaking the majority towards nighttime and the reasons why. If you backload and still in a deficit you can still lose weight, apply the benefits, and reap what your doing. See how it suits you and adjust."
RecompMan
Well-known member
At maintenance cals I see a big difference in the amount of carbs Incan consume per day
As of lately I have been able to hitn450 carbs a day and remain fairly lean. Do about 75g carb intra or post and the rest before bed
The Solution
Legend
stayed much leaner this offseason doing so compared to last
at school so i cannot pull up pictures but could do so when i get home showing you different from last year and this year.
its all trial and error on what works for you.
booneman77
Legend
Did you guys start at the low end of the carb reccomendations and go up or vice versa? In my research awhile back when i was really looking into this there was a lot of complaints that the suggested carb amounts were insanely high in his book.
The Solution
Legend
I dont really cycle my kcals. i just adjust based off my goal. cutting i eat less, bulking i eat more. I never really change anything besides my carb intake based off goal. Fat and P are pretty consistent.
RecompMan
Well-known member
I started at low end at 50g post workout
Then upped to 75
Now I just do 75 intra.
Well may end up doing about 100-150 intra come time to diet for the may 31 show and have 50 grams at night. Haven't decideda
AntM1564
Legend
How would one carb back load if they train in the morning or early afternoon?
Would you mind posting pics later or shooting me a PM? I might be interested in giving this a go...
The Solution
Legend
Now --- Almost 190:
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Last offseason:
Around 170:
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i dont see how this is so complicated
if you eat 300g of carbs but spread them out over all meals
reduce to first few meals and increase in later meals.
Very simple.
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Last offseason:
Around 170:
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i dont see how this is so complicated
if you eat 300g of carbs but spread them out over all meals
reduce to first few meals and increase in later meals.
Very simple.
AntM1564
Legend
Damn Bob, your quads blew up. You can definitely see you got bigger, but does not look like any of it was fat.
I know I am probably making this more complicated than it needs to be. I just want to get my stuff straight before I experiment. So lets say I eat 5 meals during the day and train around noon, would my meals look like the following:
Meal 1: P+F+veggies
Meal 2 (pre workout): P+F+veggies
Meal 3 (post workout): P+C
Meal 4: P+C
Meal 5: P+C
I know I am probably making this more complicated than it needs to be. I just want to get my stuff straight before I experiment. So lets say I eat 5 meals during the day and train around noon, would my meals look like the following:
Meal 1: P+F+veggies
Meal 2 (pre workout): P+F+veggies
Meal 3 (post workout): P+C
Meal 4: P+C
Meal 5: P+C
The Solution
Legend
Exactly
not very hard to set up. just shift your kcals later at night after working out
even if you trian early eat P+F for first few meals than P+C later in the day
ust shifting them later in the day is what matters most.
not very hard to set up. just shift your kcals later at night after working out
even if you trian early eat P+F for first few meals than P+C later in the day
ust shifting them later in the day is what matters most.
Rush8780
Member
My only issue is. I'm very experienced with counting my macros and cals but that's what "healthy" foods. Kiefer is talking about having doubts and other high glycemic carbs post training. I would be lost trying to add the macros of a donut or something to my carb intake. Much less my daily cal intake
RecompMan
Well-known member
It's guidelines homie
Easy enough to cook 3 cups rice and add 3 cups sugar to the water to make it high glycemic
The Solution
Legend
Then eat your macros in your meals but shift your carbs later in the night
what i have said every single post.
MaXopA
Member
great pics, well done mate! any idea what your BF % is at the moment?
The Solution
Legend
Got A dexa Scan 2 months ago and came back 11%, so probably around 12-13% my heaviest in about 7 years right now.
Whacked
Well-known member
AntM1564
Legend
Would the post workout P+C meal be the most carb heavy and then any other meal after that taper down in carbs? Sorry for the stupid questions, I do not have the book. Also, I read somewhere about the 0 days at no more than 30g carbs, is that necessary, Bob?
booneman77
Legend
Prob not completely necessary (a lot of people only do 5-7) but the intention is to get a baseline of glycogen in your body so that you know how much to eat without "spilling over".
The Solution
Legend
Does not matter, eat as you wish my last meal is the largest carb meal
I wrote you shift your carbs to later in the night
so if you eat 300g of carbs throughout the day (as i already wrote this) you would shift them all towards the end of the day. (or the vast majority) very simple.
Count your kcals but eat your carbs later.
The Solution
Legend
You can CBL if you cut or bulk (you dont need a burner to get shredded) You can do that on your diet/cardio alone, but you could use one.
You just vary your intake.
Your really overthinking this entire thing.
You eat your kcals daily ---> Shift your carbs more towards your later meals (but still hit your calories)
Thats it.
JudoJosh
Pro Virili Parte
That was the ONLY part? There is lots in that post that seems off
keithgeiling
Member
Contradiction seems to be rampant in the fitness/ nutrition industry. Lol!!
The Solution
Legend
John Bernardi did this with hit fat and carb combination meals too
Layne use to advocate dextrose post workout 5 years ago
Etc
killandgo
New member
It's like any diet. It'll be effective for a while, then when your body adapts, you either have to drop calories/increase activity to see results. I did it for a year, helped me drop 25 pounds - working seven days a week and eating like crap got me fat, and I admit the CBL helped to quickly shed the weight. I stopped seeing results after four months or so - I liked the convenience of skipping breakfast, so I continued on it for another eight months, though in hindsight, I should've just started my current habits sooner.
Now, I don't count macros, I just eat clean, with maybe one/two cheat meals a week. I'm the strongest and leanest I've been at 215 pounds. Having carbs throughout the day really helps my performance (I'm a strength athlete.) I still skip breakfast and on my first meal, I just eat oatmeal w/berries, cinnamon, walnuts and raisins instead of eggs w/veggies as on CBL. Strange as it sounds, having oatmeal is nirvana to me - I forgot how much I missed it. (You're not supposed to have it on CBL/carb-nite.)
My conclusion - as stated already - it's just another diet. If you go over your macros, you will gain fat - your body doesn't discriminate if a caloric excess is comprised of fat/protein or carbs. If you don't count macros, CBL can be tricky - most BB'ers/weight trainers have big appetites and that one high GI donut after your wo can easily lead to five. Or one steak leads to three. And I'm also skeptical on the long term health affects. Sugar and high saturated fat diets - even in a caloric deficit - may not be the healthiest diet, even if you're shredded. Blood work would be the only indicator - I don't know of any studies/logs that document this. As it stands now, it's gone the way of most fad diets. It was all over the place a year or so ago. Now, Kiefer's Dangerously Hardcore site is no longer around and he hasn't made a Youtube video in a long time. It didn't help that while he looks buff in the PDF site ad, on the Youtube videos, he looked kinda small and sick to be honest. Not great personal endorsement.
Now, I don't count macros, I just eat clean, with maybe one/two cheat meals a week. I'm the strongest and leanest I've been at 215 pounds. Having carbs throughout the day really helps my performance (I'm a strength athlete.) I still skip breakfast and on my first meal, I just eat oatmeal w/berries, cinnamon, walnuts and raisins instead of eggs w/veggies as on CBL. Strange as it sounds, having oatmeal is nirvana to me - I forgot how much I missed it. (You're not supposed to have it on CBL/carb-nite.)
My conclusion - as stated already - it's just another diet. If you go over your macros, you will gain fat - your body doesn't discriminate if a caloric excess is comprised of fat/protein or carbs. If you don't count macros, CBL can be tricky - most BB'ers/weight trainers have big appetites and that one high GI donut after your wo can easily lead to five. Or one steak leads to three. And I'm also skeptical on the long term health affects. Sugar and high saturated fat diets - even in a caloric deficit - may not be the healthiest diet, even if you're shredded. Blood work would be the only indicator - I don't know of any studies/logs that document this. As it stands now, it's gone the way of most fad diets. It was all over the place a year or so ago. Now, Kiefer's Dangerously Hardcore site is no longer around and he hasn't made a Youtube video in a long time. It didn't help that while he looks buff in the PDF site ad, on the Youtube videos, he looked kinda small and sick to be honest. Not great personal endorsement.
The Solution
Legend
Stop
Any diet works for any goal bulking or cutting, remember it comes down to total kcals.
Some people respond to different carb manipulation/timing, you just have to know what works best for your body
I carb cycled for 2 years and took notes on what works for me
Higher carb year round and lower fat suits me very well, so i always eat high carbs daily, keep P/F the same, and just lower them when cutting and increase when bulking.
Edit -- Reason i say this, is on my lower carb days when fat intake was higher it bloated me a lot more, my performance was lackluster, and my energy faded quicker on higher fats, same with moderate fats/carbs days, i noticed the same. higher carb days i found better energy, better focus , and better performance.
now when i started to cut i noticed the same effects, so Jason Theobald my nutritionist) just told me lets just do these calories everyday for 4 weeks straight and just changed my carb intake and kept P/F the same, and it worked wonders and found my best success.
now if you were to carb backload and say you take in 300g of carbs and eat 5 meals and spread them out, then use those 300g of carbs in the last 2-3 meals and make your first 2 very low carb or trace carbs from P+F sources.
Mikeyjd
Member
killandgo
New member
Like I imply in my original post, counting macros, tracking food intake, etc. is the best method to eat. I was replying to the OP's question. Since CBL/Carb-nite restricts carbs for the first week, you lose weight (not necessarily fat,) quickly, which I originally needed, since I was sluggish at over 240 lbs. A lot of people who did the diet and didn't achieve the spectacular "normal" results and complained, Kiefer argued the dieter wasn't following the diet correctly.
Without counting macros (let's be honest, most people, like me, won't do this, or do a half-assed job), CBL is like any other restrictive diet. It works because you either eat less per meal/eat less caloric-rich foods/eat less frequently. And like any diet that restricts certain foods (especially ones that are healthy - on CBL, you shouldn't eat low GI starches/fruit, besides bananas,) it's hard to commit to long-term. And life's too short to not enjoy the foods you love. Like the saying goes, moderation is key.
I stand by my original post - like any other faddy diet, it can help shed body weight quickly, then it simply becomes a game of counting macros. So, I would recommend it for a quick body-comp/weight loss, but wouldn't recommend it long-term, unless the diet agrees with you. I know people eat just pounds of meat and vegetables year-round and are perfectly healthy, but like most people, I couldn't do that.
The Solution
Legend
You could say the same thing for keto it could be a quick loss, but is it optimal to stick keto 24/7 or all the time? Not so much, even in a bulking phase. Sure you could do it, but necessary? Depends on the individual.
Rush8780
Member
To be honest my favorite way typically to be able to enjoy my weekends. I run low/no carbs throughout the week. Mon-Fri. I have found by doing that my body needs the extra cals and carbs by the Time the weekend rolls around I can pretty much eat what I want and enjoy myself and come Monday I actually look leaner and haven't gained any fat. I'm not saying binge eating all weekend but basically if I want something I can enjoy it guilt free.
The Solution
Legend
you can enjoy anything guilt free on a daily basis within your macros.
That would be called "Moderation" or a free meal. which if you are not in contest prep or ready for a photoshoot you should practice.
That would be called "Moderation" or a free meal. which if you are not in contest prep or ready for a photoshoot you should practice.