Lukef2000
Well-known member
Every insulin protocol I've read says that dextrose is the preferable sugar source.
Smash is Bulking: 1-test c/test e/test base/eq
- Thread starter smash1904
- Start date
Every insulin protocol I've read says that dextrose is the preferable sugar source.
Dr.Stri8ed
Well-known member
Correct. Yeah dextrose is mine too lol
Lukef2000
Well-known member
Oh dextrose is all that I use, I have zero sugar in my diet except for the 35g dextrose I have with my whey post training.
Dr.Stri8ed
Well-known member
I pound candy postworkout lol
Lukef2000
Well-known member
Same as my wife, I'm sure that's the reason she actually trains lol
smash1904
Active member
I've never done insulin spikes around workouts, does it make a pretty big difference? I kinda try and avoid sugar cause I can see myself bloating when I do, like I've gained a lot of weight but its bad weight. I'm sure it'd allow more protein synthesis to occur cause of insulin shuttling aminos into muscle, but does that natural insulin spike make that big of a difference?
tinytony
Well-known member
Yeah dude the pump from that and whey isolate is great and when slamming carbs like dextrose postworkout, I never get bloat because at that point the body is like a vacuum. Of course using actual insulin, I'm betting on some bloat although this is purely surmise as it never done it.
smash1904
Active member
Ya I've been doing the bcaas and creatine with mio, and I just drink a protein shake before and after. I also use geranium seed extract carnitine-l-tartate and citrulline malate preworkout. How much malto do you add? I was thinking of using 200g split before during and after...
smash1904
Active member
Haha my wife too... She's mainly doing incline treadmill walking now cause she's 5 months pregnant, but she straight up craves meals comprised entirely of candy.
What's everyone's consensus on adequate intake? Also what about karbolyn, vitargo and those other "faster" absorbing carbs? Is malto just the best bang for your buck?
tinytony
Well-known member
Dextrose is the cheapest I've ever seen. I buy it and Glycomaize. The latter is made by ON and dextrose by now. You can get a month supply of each for around 25-30. Actuate Glycomaize lasts me lot longer than that
Dr.Stri8ed
Well-known member
Yeah I'd do a combination of both
smash1904
Active member
Taking a rest for a couple days, my stepson got the flu and I'm rapidly deteriorating - hope this doesn't set me back much. My wife says I'm pale, my hungers crappy in comparison to just the other day, I'm achy, tired, congested, and I have a headache. I'll let you know how it goes... Sucks I was stoked on doing my shoulder workout.
Dr.Stri8ed
Well-known member
Waxy maize hits me extremely fast though. Oh yeah love pixie stixs bro
smash1904
Active member
Ok so here's an article on waxy maize:
Invalid Link Removed
The WMS Study Summaries
The first study compared way maize to dextrose, slow starch, and a placebo (4). In contrast to common claims, following ingestion, both blood glucose and resulting insulin levels were similar between WMS and slow starch, and 3 times lower than plain dextrose. Measured work output during cycling exercise was not different following either dextrose or WMS ingestion, which were similar to slow starch.
1 / Blood Sugar And Insulin Were Similar To Slow Starch, But Much Lower Than Dextrose
The next study examined 24-hour glycogen resynthesis using WMS, maltodextrin, dextrose, or slow starch (6). WMS-induced glycogen storage and subsequent work performance were not different from that of dextrose or maltodextrin consumption. It wasn't all bad news however, as these three carbohydrates yielded improved performance over slow starch.
2 / 24-Hour Glycogen Resynthesis Was Not Different From Dextrose Or Maltodextrin
A more recent study looked at WMS (a.k.a. "amylopectin") compared to maltodextrin, sucrose (a.k.a. table sugar), and slow starch, using a 1-hour glycemic index test (conducted by one of the researchers who invented it back in the 1980's)(1).
Once again, WMS performance contradicted the frequent claims about apparent rapid absorption. This time, blood glucose levels were not only lower than maltodextrin, but lower even than the slower carbohydrate sucrose. In fact, the glycemic response of WMS was low enough for researchers to call it a "low-glycemic-index treatment", like the slow starch.
3 / Blood Glucose Levels Lower Than Maltodextrin And Sucrose
Far from an isolated incident, a brand new study sought to specifically investigate the glycemic response of WMS ingestion compared to both maltodextrin with a small amount of sucrose, and white bread (10).
Interestingly, the resulting blood glucose response of WMS was similar to that of bread! As you'd expect, this was quite a bit lower than the fast carb mix of maltodextrin + sucrose. Additionally, the insulin response was significantly lower for WMS even compared to the bread treatment (and of course much lower than maltodextrin).
4 / Blood Glucose Similar To, And Insulin Lower Than, White Bread
A final study compared the glycemic response of 25g WMS that was cooked with water into a paste, to that of the same amount of glucose (5). This study is different from the previous WMS studies that used uncooked "native" WMS. The blood sugar levels were similar between groups, leading the researchers to give the WMS a glycemic index rating of 90.
5 / Similar Blood Sugar Response As Dextrose
If we're dissecting the information on WMS -as we should be, especially if we're thinking of spending money on it- then we need to evaluate the glycemic index itself.
Although a full discussion is beyond the scope of this article, it's worth noting that simply measuring blood sugar isn't ideal for a complete understanding of this substance. Adding insulin measurements helps a great deal, although this is still not perfect (for a full review, see 14).
At the same time, it's critical to understand that the purpose of this review is to evaluate the claims surrounding WMS, and then determine how they match up with the available information. Clearly they don't.
Invalid Link Removed
The WMS Study Summaries
The first study compared way maize to dextrose, slow starch, and a placebo (4). In contrast to common claims, following ingestion, both blood glucose and resulting insulin levels were similar between WMS and slow starch, and 3 times lower than plain dextrose. Measured work output during cycling exercise was not different following either dextrose or WMS ingestion, which were similar to slow starch.
1 / Blood Sugar And Insulin Were Similar To Slow Starch, But Much Lower Than Dextrose
The next study examined 24-hour glycogen resynthesis using WMS, maltodextrin, dextrose, or slow starch (6). WMS-induced glycogen storage and subsequent work performance were not different from that of dextrose or maltodextrin consumption. It wasn't all bad news however, as these three carbohydrates yielded improved performance over slow starch.
2 / 24-Hour Glycogen Resynthesis Was Not Different From Dextrose Or Maltodextrin
A more recent study looked at WMS (a.k.a. "amylopectin") compared to maltodextrin, sucrose (a.k.a. table sugar), and slow starch, using a 1-hour glycemic index test (conducted by one of the researchers who invented it back in the 1980's)(1).
Once again, WMS performance contradicted the frequent claims about apparent rapid absorption. This time, blood glucose levels were not only lower than maltodextrin, but lower even than the slower carbohydrate sucrose. In fact, the glycemic response of WMS was low enough for researchers to call it a "low-glycemic-index treatment", like the slow starch.
3 / Blood Glucose Levels Lower Than Maltodextrin And Sucrose
Far from an isolated incident, a brand new study sought to specifically investigate the glycemic response of WMS ingestion compared to both maltodextrin with a small amount of sucrose, and white bread (10).
Interestingly, the resulting blood glucose response of WMS was similar to that of bread! As you'd expect, this was quite a bit lower than the fast carb mix of maltodextrin + sucrose. Additionally, the insulin response was significantly lower for WMS even compared to the bread treatment (and of course much lower than maltodextrin).
4 / Blood Glucose Similar To, And Insulin Lower Than, White Bread
A final study compared the glycemic response of 25g WMS that was cooked with water into a paste, to that of the same amount of glucose (5). This study is different from the previous WMS studies that used uncooked "native" WMS. The blood sugar levels were similar between groups, leading the researchers to give the WMS a glycemic index rating of 90.
5 / Similar Blood Sugar Response As Dextrose
If we're dissecting the information on WMS -as we should be, especially if we're thinking of spending money on it- then we need to evaluate the glycemic index itself.
Although a full discussion is beyond the scope of this article, it's worth noting that simply measuring blood sugar isn't ideal for a complete understanding of this substance. Adding insulin measurements helps a great deal, although this is still not perfect (for a full review, see 14).
At the same time, it's critical to understand that the purpose of this review is to evaluate the claims surrounding WMS, and then determine how they match up with the available information. Clearly they don't.
Dr.Stri8ed
Well-known member
That's what I was leaning towards.
smash1904
Active member
The link has the studies cited at the bottom of the article, but you could easily test it yourself by buying one of those diabetic insulin reading machines. They're like $30 at CVS. I'll be getting one for myself pretty soon, and the reason I've been discussing this is I WANT the insulin spike. Waxy maize has a low glycemic index making white bread just as effective at raising your insulin. Dextrose is glucose, sucrose is a glucose bound with another kind of sugar meaning sucrose is a little slower than dextrose, but dextrose has no digestion delay passing into your bloodstream. It's why diabetics have glucose tabs.
Also on a separate note our intestines have a wide array of different microbials - some good some bad. One of these organisms is called candida which is a fungus - aka yeast. Yeast eats refined sugar producing gas - the reason why too much sugar makes you bloated. Lactose intolerance is the same thing - your body doesn't produce the enzyme to convert lactose into glucose and so the yeast eats it and it turns into gas. Apparently more than 250 million Americans suffer from having too much of this stuff, and it causes a lot of our health issues - it's actually called "the American parasite." Is there a simple fix? Eat stuff like kimchi and yogurt, it's full of probiotics and keeps this stuff I'm check.
Dr.Stri8ed
Well-known member
Yeah I think both is a good mix
tinytony
Well-known member
That's what I usually do but I ran out and no stores near me carry it so I have to order it and weight. Instead of being proactive and ordering before I'm out lolz
Dr.Stri8ed
Well-known member
Lol gummy bears work too
smash1904
Active member
Haha ya I need to buy some bulk dextrose but for now I'm trying it out with Gatorade powder - not optimal cause its half dextrose half sucrose. I'm pretty sure I'm just going to get pixi stix cause you can get a case for like $12 online.
So right now I'm drinking a 40g protein shake pre and post workout, and I'm starting with two Gatorade drinks that I start preworkout and finish the 2nd one by the end of the workout. Each one has 3.5g bcaa 10g glutamine and 5g creatine. I can use more creatine on cycle right?
Dr.Stri8ed
Well-known member
Fur sure u can
superbeast668
Well-known member
Anabolics CAN increase BUN and creatinine. Creatine can also. Id just leave it at 5 if your using creatine on cycle.
Dr.Stri8ed
Well-known member
Good point. 5 grams is still sufficient.
smash1904
Active member
I was kinda under the impression that your body can utilize more on cycle and that it's more anabolic with aas, like just a freeby and cheap addition. Plus I was saying two of those drinks so that's 10g... When I've looked into insulin protocols it seems like there's a ratio of dextrose/bcaa/eaa/creatine to ius of insulin. Correct me if I'm wrong or if there's a difference between endogenous exogenous insulin...
smash1904
Active member
Here's a little information on why I take carnitine-l-tartrate:
L-Carnitine-L-Tartrate (LCLT) supplementation has been evaluated in RE-trained humans as an enhancer of the hormonal responses to RE and a recovery promoter.1,9,10
3-weeks supplementation with LCLT (equivalent to 2 g elemental carnitine/day) has been shown to reduce muscle damage produced by an acute bout of high-intensity RE in two cross-over, placebo-controlled trials.9,10 - the "gold standard" so to speak in terms of clinical trials.
According to the investigators, less muscle damage may have resulted in more hormonal receptors available for binding interactions with anabolic hormones,9 a circumstance that may explain the reduced progression of muscle damage (measured by MRI) in the recovery days following RE.9,10 With more hormonal receptors available for binding interactions with anabolic hormones, muscle growth potential is also increased.
In particular, one study has shown that 21-days LCLT supplementation (equivalent to 2 g elemental carnitine/day) in recreationally resistance-trained individuals induced a significant upregulation of pre-exercise skeletal muscle AR protein content [15.2% more compared with PL (12.9+/-5.9 vs. 11.2+/-4.0 au, respectively)] compared with placebo.1
LCLT may have worked by reducing muscle damage associated with RE,9,10 therefore attenuating the catabolism of muscle-specific proteins (including AR).1
As a consequence, LCLT may enhance testosterone uptake via less muscle damage and increased availability of AR, and not via direct stimulation of T secretion (in other words, LCLT is not a testosterone-enhancing supplement).1
L-Carnitine-L-Tartrate (LCLT) supplementation has been evaluated in RE-trained humans as an enhancer of the hormonal responses to RE and a recovery promoter.1,9,10
3-weeks supplementation with LCLT (equivalent to 2 g elemental carnitine/day) has been shown to reduce muscle damage produced by an acute bout of high-intensity RE in two cross-over, placebo-controlled trials.9,10 - the "gold standard" so to speak in terms of clinical trials.
According to the investigators, less muscle damage may have resulted in more hormonal receptors available for binding interactions with anabolic hormones,9 a circumstance that may explain the reduced progression of muscle damage (measured by MRI) in the recovery days following RE.9,10 With more hormonal receptors available for binding interactions with anabolic hormones, muscle growth potential is also increased.
In particular, one study has shown that 21-days LCLT supplementation (equivalent to 2 g elemental carnitine/day) in recreationally resistance-trained individuals induced a significant upregulation of pre-exercise skeletal muscle AR protein content [15.2% more compared with PL (12.9+/-5.9 vs. 11.2+/-4.0 au, respectively)] compared with placebo.1
LCLT may have worked by reducing muscle damage associated with RE,9,10 therefore attenuating the catabolism of muscle-specific proteins (including AR).1
As a consequence, LCLT may enhance testosterone uptake via less muscle damage and increased availability of AR, and not via direct stimulation of T secretion (in other words, LCLT is not a testosterone-enhancing supplement).1
Dr.Stri8ed
Well-known member
Great minds think alike. That's why I take it too.
FL3X MAGNUM
Legend
FL3X MAGNUM
Legend
Ok I'm all caught up now.
Let's talk more about this "crash" in the muscle.
You're saying that since you're getting other oils (since you're stacking compounds) the pip from possible 1T crash isn't that bad? You're loading all compounds into one syringe and having one poke then correct?
Also, any 1-test users noticing their stuff is crashing out in the vial and have to reheat?
The reviews I've read on my brand don't say anything about crash but I've read others that have.
Not looking forward to that if it happens.
Let's talk more about this "crash" in the muscle.
You're saying that since you're getting other oils (since you're stacking compounds) the pip from possible 1T crash isn't that bad? You're loading all compounds into one syringe and having one poke then correct?
Also, any 1-test users noticing their stuff is crashing out in the vial and have to reheat?
The reviews I've read on my brand don't say anything about crash but I've read others that have.
Not looking forward to that if it happens.
Dr.Stri8ed
Well-known member
I hope this doesn't happen to mine either
smash1904
Active member
Ya I read Rodja's posts, its one of the few with first hand experience, I think there was maybe two all together..? Not a particularly commonly talked about compound, which is strange considering how awesome it sounds. What I had heard is that its 1) amazing 2) usually very painful, but there appears to be a painless blend now.
smash1904
Active member
Yes I'm using 1.5cc of other oil for every cc of 1-test, I'm doing so in 1 jab and I'm heating it first - pip is little to none, and I'm getting 450mg in 3 weekly injections. Mine has not crashed in the vial, but then again it has a very strong smell that comes along with it - I can taste it when I take it. Ive talked to my buddy about the pain associated with 1-test and he said hes heard it from everyone and a new blend will be coming down the line. I will let everyone know how that goes later on.
So basically when you start taking it start with it diluted (2:3 worked for me) and work your way down to a manageable point - sterile oil would work just fine for this too. So far its been well worth dealing with a little pip.
FL3X MAGNUM
Legend
Sterile oil is probably the best way to go, but most of us guys need to pin the whole kitchen sink lol. I learned the hard way that my quads do NOT like 3ml at once.
Rodja
Board Sponsor
The cyp ester itself is a bitch to hold into solution. If it does crash, it's an easy fix, though: reheat, add some BB, keep on heat, shake, lather, rinse, repeat.
I bought a bunch of crashed 1T for really cheap and this fixed them all. If you simply heat it up without extra solvent, you'll have to do it every time and it takes awhile to get back into solution.
FL3X MAGNUM
Legend
Well I'm sure mine will crash like a boss en route since it's freaking 15 degrees all winter.
I saw some crashed gear on the cheap recently. I bet I know your guy.
I saw some crashed gear on the cheap recently. I bet I know your guy.
FL3X MAGNUM
Legend
If it was a while ago then probably not the same guy.
Not twins
Not twins
smash1904
Active member
Haha didn't see this... Ya I research everything I take, it's easy or me cause I enjoy reading case studies and then applying them to my regimen.
smash1904
Active member
Ya sterile oil would work fine. That's unfortunate, it seems to be the only place I can really inject anything. I do one of my glutes per week just for site rotation and that still hurts pretty bad. Pecs lats bis delts? Had lots of bad experiences... Last time I did my lat it felt like I'd been stabbed for a week, I always get a dead arm from delts, and any where else feels like I've pulled a muscle. Quads I can alternate between eod with 2-3ccs rotating where I actually hit it with very little problem - I'm just afraid it'll cause problems in the long run.
smash1904
Active member
It's cool seeing you join in, you were very incite full when it came to this stuff. Didn't you say this stuff gave you back pumps after awhile? I think you were running more per week... I'm sure heating it up would work just fine, but if its so difficult to hold wouldn't just adding a little guaiacol fix this? Did you have pretty bad pip from it too? Mine hasn't crashed in the vial but it has a really strong smell so I'm pretty sure it has guaiacol in it...
smash1904
Active member
Haha ya I think a lot of things might crash at that temperature...
smash1904
Active member
Day: 8
Weight: 191
It's been about a week since I started this log and I bounced back from getting sick pretty quick - seemed like I was only really sick one day and I barely lost any weight at all. I'm doing a lot more volume now, adding in extra sets and exercises to burn muscles out, and I'm doing so with a lot of intensity. Tunnel vision focus and the pump makes my muscles give out before the muscle actually does - my biceps today were too swollen to keep going even though the energy was still there, I just kept going and going and going...
So I had gotten up to 194 the other day, but as of today I'm up 18lbs in about 3 weeks. I feel most of this was muscle memory from my last cycle, and I'm excited to see where it goes from here.
Weight: 191
It's been about a week since I started this log and I bounced back from getting sick pretty quick - seemed like I was only really sick one day and I barely lost any weight at all. I'm doing a lot more volume now, adding in extra sets and exercises to burn muscles out, and I'm doing so with a lot of intensity. Tunnel vision focus and the pump makes my muscles give out before the muscle actually does - my biceps today were too swollen to keep going even though the energy was still there, I just kept going and going and going...
So I had gotten up to 194 the other day, but as of today I'm up 18lbs in about 3 weeks. I feel most of this was muscle memory from my last cycle, and I'm excited to see where it goes from here.
Dr.Stri8ed
Well-known member
Hellz yeah brah. I can't wait to see that 1 test cyp does for u. I'm gonna throw it in my cycle instead of EQ now.
smash1904
Active member
Dude ya the stuff is sick and only getting better. It almost feels like restless leg syndrome in all my muscles and the energy is almost too much, comes out as aggression if I don't take it out on the weights. Everyday I'm straight pissed tell I get to the gym, and I'm waking up next to wife wanting it like I'm in high school again.
Dr.Stri8ed
Well-known member
Oh man that sounds dope, I'm already on tren lol. U think 500mg a week would b good? That's what I've been reading.